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Thread: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

  1. #1

    3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    All things interact ... yet each keeps its place.

    Which means the 3rd talk intermingles with the 4th talk, but the 4th talk is now our place.

    Please enjoy the sound in your heart of the FOURTH TALK in Suzuki Roshi's talks on the Sandokai ... "THE BLUE JAY WILL COME RIGHT INTO YOUR HEART", pages 63 to 71.

    Please also try to listen to Zoketsu Norm Fischer on this section (and the next one ... or you could stop when he gets there and save it for next time. No need to intermingle, as each shines alone) ...

    http://www.everydayzen.org/index.php?It ... io-347-212

    Notice that they have a little place for donations on that page. I thought that I really should be posting that as we are making such lovely use of these talks. If you have the economic ability (who does these days? :shock: ), please consider a nice donation to cover the entire series. Zen teachers and their families need to eat too ... ya can't live on the absolute alone.

    Gassho, Jundo

  2. #2

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    My notes on talk four, or rather some personal reactions to the talks so far.

    "Everything is within our mind". I'm finding that if you take everything Suzuki says in an allusive and metaphorical way then it makes some sort of spiritual sense. Don't question it rationally, just let it sink in.

    The more I study these talks and the Sandokai, the more I see Zen as a religion, i.e. something that can transform your life rather than an intellectual plaything. Zen now seems less of a cut-down and convenient spirituality, something stripped of faith and ritual, something not too demanding. In a literal sense the description of the "Absolute" means to me as little as "God" does from a literal point of view; but as a spritual and religious response to life it has a huge amount of meaning. Or maybe I am just projecting my own childhood Christian conditioning onto Zen.

    The idea that because everything is different then everything has its own value is a revolutionary way of thinking.

    The interplay between the san and the do becomes quite beautiful, the more I read about it. We don't have to be stuck with whatever causes us suffering. Discrimination is necessary sometimes but it is not everything. We can see it for what it is. With discrimination in its place the the world is a much richer place.

  3. #3

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Inspired by what we have been studying and my reactions to it, I've booked a place on a sesshin at the end of this month in the UK. It is led by Tanto Meiya Wender, from the San Francisco Zen Center, who is in the Suzuki lineage.

    In this retreat we will explore the role of traditional Zen rituals and forms as vehicles for realising the wisdom and compassion of the Buddha, and will consider questions such as: What is the historical role of ritual in Zen practice? Can ancient rituals be helpful to us today? How does ritual help us to realise our deepest intention, express our gratitude, our feelings, clarify our inter-connection? We will practise with traditional Soto Zen forms of sitting, walking, standing, bowing, chanting and making offerings, as well as variations on traditional practices during meals and drinking tea. The daily schedule will include periods of sitting and walking meditation as well as traditional Zen services (bowing and reciting scriptures). Additional detailed instruction in how to hold services will be available for those who are interested.

  4. #4
    Member shogyo's Avatar
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    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Hi Charles,

    See you there

    Brian

  5. #5

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    It sounds like a fine Sesshin. How many days will it be? (besides being a timeless experience, of course).

  6. #6

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Quote Originally Posted by brian
    Hi Charles,

    See you there

    Brian
    Yes, hope we can have a chat before the sesshin starts formally and the silence starts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    It sounds like a fine Sesshin. How many days will it be? (besides being a timeless experience, of course).
    Starts Wednesday evening, end Sunday lunch, a day longer than my first sesshin a year ago. I am working hard on my hip loosening exercises in preparation

    :Charles

  7. #7

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesC

    "Everything is within our mind". I'm finding that if you take everything Suzuki says in an allusive and metaphorical way then it makes some sort of spiritual sense. Don't question it rationally, just let it sink in.
    Hi,

    I'm going to counter Charles and say that at least for "Everything is within our mind" I think it should be taken literally and rationally.

    Whilst I may not go the whole hog, as the Yogacara school does, and I do believe there is some structure to the universe, the manifestations of things as I see them, is firmly within my mind.

    From a scientific basis it is quite clear that everything is made of energy, this includes atoms, thoughts, feelings etc. Now, if we take a physical item, say a pencil, which we look at with our eyes then what is happening when we "see" it?

    The light waves hit the pencil and reflect off entering into our eyes. The nerves in our eyes then carry an electrical charge to our brain neurons which then fire in complex ways and we get an idea of a pencil.

    My argument is that really the "pencil" is the idea of the pencil which actually resides in our mind. The "real" pencil is a bunch of atoms forming molecules making up wood, graphite and paint. They exist in the sense of being a clustering of energy within an energy continuum but it is a sentient being that translates that into a thing.

    Any use?

    Cheers,

    Paul

  8. #8

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Quote Originally Posted by prg5001
    I'm going to counter Charles and say that at least for "Everything is within our mind" I think it should be taken literally and rationally.
    ...
    Now, if we take a physical item, say a pencil, which we look at with our eyes then what is happening when we "see" it?
    ...
    Suzuki's usage of "big mind" does not appear to be describing just what comes to us via our senses at a particular moment. It seems to embrace everything. I cannot interpret this rationally, only as a metaphor for what happens when our "small mind" drops away and there is no more subject/object split in what we experience.

    Whatever we talk about at any moment is within our mind. Everything is within our mind. But usually we think there are many things: there is this, and this, and this out there. In the cosmos there are many stars, but right now we can only reach the moon. In a few years we may reach some other planets, and eventually we may reach some other solar system. In Buddhism, mind and being are one, not different. As there is no limit to cosmic being, there is no limit to our mind; our mind reaches everywhere. It already includes the stars, so our mind is not just our mind. It is something greater than the small mind that we think is our mind. This is our understanding.
    This is also how I understand what Norman Fischer says here:

    In the world of do the whole of reality appears in overwhelming intensity on every moment of perception. If we experience it as a satori moment we might say, “No self, no person, no hearing” – just the entire universe appearing right here and now. And sometimes we do experience that. Although sesshin can be difficult, I think that one of the things that makes sesshin pleasing is that we often have that experience. If we don’t have it in a powerful way, we can have it in a more quiet way, in feeling oneness in acts of perception, or even in thinking.

  9. #9

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesC

    Suzuki's usage of "big mind" does not appear to be describing just what comes to us via our senses at a particular moment. It seems to embrace everything. I cannot interpret this rationally, only as a metaphor for what happens when our "small mind" drops away and there is no more subject/object split in what we experience.
    I agree with you, "big mind" (what is in the dark) is more than what comes to us via our senses at a particular moment.

    Cheers,

    Paul

  10. #10

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Hi,

    Have been thinking about light and dark, one and many, ri and ji, san and do, independent and interrelated. The words sound like pairs of opposites and it takes some effort to break the habit of "either one or the other" and accept the possibility of "both one and the other". Suzuki describes his words as double-edged swords that cut both ways (forward and backward) at the same time.

    I read somewhere that nonduality is the middle path between something and its opposite. And this creates the other possibility "neither one nor the other"; neither light nor dark, neither ri nor ji... Somehow this seems to make sense in terms of "acceptance without judgement."

    Also, I wonder sometimes if this poem (and Suzuki's comments) and the apparent contradictions (in the way words are used) are aiming to "break" your small mind. Perhaps the book is one very long koan.

    JohnH :?

  11. #11

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Quote Originally Posted by jrh001
    Also, I wonder sometimes if this poem (and Suzuki's comments) and the apparent contradictions (in the way words are used) are aiming to "break" your small mind. Perhaps the book is one very long koan.

    JohnH :?
    Yep. Absolutely so! (and relatively too)

  12. #12

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Hi
    Norm Fischer says, "ALL THINGS ARE ROOTED IN DO!" KENSHO! This could be precisely where the Northern School and Southern School intersect and proceed without difference.

    Like the trees, flowers, and weeds, are rooted in the earth "all things" are rooted in the Source. Even though the Source cannot be seen, it is always and everywhere, like Branching Streams Flowing In The Darkness. Words cannot describe the ineffable Source but, we can experience it while sitting in Zazen. One moment with quiet mind and still senses, sitting Zazen, is one moment within the Source. Is the Source and
    Zen Mind or Begginners Mind the same thing? Was this the mind of which Shunryu Suzuki said, " all things exist?" Was this the mind the great sage of India, Buddha, passed on Patriarch to Patriarch, to this present day?

    Self Respect Gassho Zak

  13. #13

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Charles - do you know that the co-abott of the San Francisco Zen Center, Paul Haller, comes to N.Ireland twice a year to lead retreats: http://www.blackmountainzencentre.org/8.html
    They also follow the 5-day Wednesday to Sunday pattern,

    Gassho,
    Doshin

  14. #14
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Hi all,

    I've read the chapter half a dozen times and listened to NF's talk twice and the most profound statement I can make about Suzuki Roshi's words is:

    Yup.

    Gassho,
    Scott

  15. #15

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Quote Originally Posted by John
    Charles - do you know that the co-abott of the San Francisco Zen Center, Paul Haller, comes to N.Ireland twice a year to lead retreats: http://www.blackmountainzencentre.org/8.html
    They also follow the 5-day Wednesday to Sunday pattern,

    Gassho,
    Doshin
    Hi John: yes, I'd noticed that already and considered attending the April retreat but the travel cost would have been a lot more. Maybe another time.

    Thanks, Charles

  16. #16

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Hi all
    A bit late posting but i have a very good excuse! (ill share later)

    Nothing to profound from me, I just read the chapter and i always end up smiling as i read!!

    I'll spare highlighting comments and just say what formed from reading it. Well ill spare you that too!

    Separating the various things in our mind causes unnecessary strife. The talk about the blue jay makes perfect sense to me. Actually I really relate to the way Suzuki Roshi speaks about things and the examples etc he uses to illustrate the point are right up my ally. works well for me. I really do need to listen more to the scolding when I hear some one getting one, too often and too easily i think "Whew, not me". ops:

    Gassho Shohei

  17. #17

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Hi.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrh001
    Have been thinking about light and dark, one and many, ri and ji, san and do, independent and interrelated. The words sound like pairs of opposites and it takes some effort to break the habit of "either one or the other" and accept the possibility of "both one and the other". Suzuki describes his words as double-edged swords that cut both ways (forward and backward) at the same time.
    Not just "both one and the other" but something "more"?

    Quote Originally Posted by jrh001
    I read somewhere that nonduality is the middle path between something and its opposite. And this creates the other possibility "neither one nor the other"; neither light nor dark, neither ri nor ji... Somehow this seems to make sense in terms of "acceptance without judgement."

    Also, I wonder sometimes if this poem (and Suzuki's comments) and the apparent contradictions (in the way words are used) are aiming to "break" your small mind. Perhaps the book is one very long koan.

    JohnH :?
    yes.

    Mtfbwy
    Tb

  18. #18
    Senior Member KellyRok's Avatar
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    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Hello all,

    Haven't posted yet about the book...felt outside of my self last week. At any rate, I think I got my groove back :lol:

    Dirk - I'm with you on the scolding part...no one likes to be scolded, but if we just take the time to listen and learn from the lesson that is given in the scolding (whether to us, or to someone else) that's when true practice begins...or maybe simply continues.

    I truly loved the part: "We should be alert enough to hear the meaning behind the words...We should realize something more than what is said."

    Words can be so empty sometimes...it's what isn't said that teaches us the most. At least this seems to be true for me.

    Wonderful discussions - thank you to all who provide such thought-provoking ideas and opinions!

    Gassho,
    Kelly (Jinmei)

  19. #19

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Finding it hard to think of anythiing to say about this book. Talk seems so superfluous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzuki
    When we include everything as ourselves there is nothing with which to compare ourselves. If there is only one thing, how can you compare anything to it?
    Am recently noticing I don't compare myself with others as much as I used to. In fact I am coming more and more to appreciate and enjoy the gifts and talents of others, rather than feeling envious of them. I love the insights and clear writing of contributors to this forum, for instance. This is one fruit of practice worth having. It also saves me from the mental disturbance caused by envy.

    Gassho,
    Doshin

  20. #20

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Quote Originally Posted by John
    Finding it hard to think of anythiing to say about this book. Talk seems so superfluous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzuki
    When we include everything as ourselves there is nothing with which to compare ourselves. If there is only one thing, how can you compare anything to it?
    Am recently noticing I don't compare myself with others as much as I used to. In fact I am coming more and more to appreciate and enjoy the gifts and talents of others, rather than feeling envious of them. I love the insights and clear writing of contributors to this forum, for instance. This is one fruit of practice worth having. It also saves me from the mental disturbance caused by envy.

    Gassho,
    Doshin
    Just catching up to this week's reading today.

    I couldn't agree with John more. I, too, notice that I am spontaneously happy when others are happy and that my envy of others has decreased significantly.

    Also, somehow now all things build me up. The good and the bad are on one "channel" an ego-boost or a drag, but the other channel is now in plain sight that takes all of it with the smile of acceptance and even gratitude. p. 65: "The more you practice zazen, the more you will be able to accept something as your own, whatever it is." "There is nothing to compare. You are just you.

    I find it a compelling verification of Buddhist teachings that these various texts are merging as my meager understanding of them increases. The Sandokai, the Heart Sutra, Fukanzazengi, Bendowa, etc are all the same teaching . . . the pointing at the moon.

    Peace and gassho,
    Bill

  21. #21

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Hello all,

    I haven’t been able to get to Treeleaf very much this week as my laptop hard drive had bad sectors on it and had to be replaced. Thus, I’m a bit late in my comments. In any event, the statement "Everything is within our mind” prompted me to think of the bio-psychological nature of perception. In a literal sense, our perceptions (e.g., images) are in fact in our mind, despite the fact we perceive them as being outside of ourselves. Thus, when looking at a bird, the image of the bird is, in fact, quite literally within the brain.

    Some details about this process have some intriguing implications. Visual information goes from the thalamus to the visual cortex, but then cycles back again. This cycling occurs at about 40 times per second. It is my understanding that during times of rest this cycling can slow down, which leads me do wonder if the relaxation that happens in zazen causes a slowing down of the cycling and may explain some of the blips and unusual occurrences that sometime happen during mediation. I know this is a much different take on “Everything is within our mind” and not what Suzuki Roshi had intended, but my mind took it on a bit of a detour on this idea. (Link below with more details concerning perception and the brain.)

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...pagewanted=all

    Gassho,
    BrianW

  22. #22

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Quote Originally Posted by Eika
    I find it a compelling verification of Buddhist teachings that these various texts are merging as my meager understanding of them increases. The Sandokai, the Heart Sutra, Fukanzazengi, Bendowa, etc are all the same teaching . . . the pointing at the moon.
    Hi Bill,

    I've only read the first two but have also begun to see the texts "merging". I'd also add that Trust in the Heart by Sengcan (3rd Chinese Ancestor) has similarities with the Sandokai. It was written after the Heart Sutra and before the Sandokai.

    I suppose that's what lineage is all about - the undistorted message is transmitted through time and space.

    JohnH

    (Link to two translations of Trust in the Heart: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfj5swv9_34577zjrhd)

  23. #23

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Quote Originally Posted by jrh001
    I've only read the first two but have also begun to see the texts "merging". I'd also add that Trust in the Heart by Sengcan (3rd Chinese Ancestor) has similarities with the Sandokai. It was written after the Heart Sutra and before the Sandokai.

    I suppose that's what lineage is all about - the undistorted message is transmitted through time and space.

    JohnH

    (Link to two translations of Trust in the Heart: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfj5swv9_34577zjrhd)
    Thanks for the link, I'd never heard of this poem.

    Bill

  24. #24

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Thanks for the link, I'd never heard of this poem.
    Bill, I kept coming across quotes from it so often I bought a commentary, and it is quite good:

    http://www.amazon.com/Trust-Mind-Rebell ... 297&sr=8-2

    Gassho,
    Doshin

  25. #25

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Quote Originally Posted by Eika
    Quote Originally Posted by jrh001
    I've only read the first two but have also begun to see the texts "merging". I'd also add that Trust in the Heart by Sengcan (3rd Chinese Ancestor) has similarities with the Sandokai. It was written after the Heart Sutra and before the Sandokai.

    I suppose that's what lineage is all about - the undistorted message is transmitted through time and space.

    JohnH

    (Link to two translations of Trust in the Heart: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfj5swv9_34577zjrhd)
    Thanks for the link, I'd never heard of this poem.

    Bill
    Hey Bill,

    Pardon me for citing Wiki, but the hour is late. The Xin Xin Ming is one of the biggies, right up there with what we are reading, the Heart Sutra and a few others of that ilk ...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinxin_Ming

    Here is a version I like (about not having "likes" and "dislikes") ...

    The Way of the supreme is not difficult,

    If only people will give up preferences.

    Like not, dislike not.

    Be illuminated.

    If you are off by a millimeter,

    You will be off by as much as earth is separate from heaven.

    If you want to see Truth,

    Call no life experience favorable or unfavorable.

    To be caught between favorable and unfavorable

    Is the sickness of the mind.

    If you miss this key point,

    Any practice of meditation would only be a waste of time.

  26. #26

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Thanks for the links.

    Gassho,
    Bill

  27. #27

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Hi,

    Quote Originally Posted by John
    Finding it hard to think of anythiing to say about this book. Talk seems so superfluous.
    I know what you mean. It's like a slippery, wet surface. No nooks and crannies to latch on to. Maybe that's good so.

    Gassho
    Bansho

  28. #28

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesC
    Inspired by what we have been studying and my reactions to it, I've booked a place on a sesshin at the end of this month in the UK. It is led by Tanto Meiya Wender, from the San Francisco Zen Center, who is in the Suzuki lineage.

    In this retreat we will explore the role of traditional Zen rituals and forms as vehicles for realising the wisdom and compassion of the Buddha, and will consider questions such as: What is the historical role of ritual in Zen practice? Can ancient rituals be helpful to us today? How does ritual help us to realise our deepest intention, express our gratitude, our feelings, clarify our inter-connection? We will practise with traditional Soto Zen forms of sitting, walking, standing, bowing, chanting and making offerings, as well as variations on traditional practices during meals and drinking tea. The daily schedule will include periods of sitting and walking meditation as well as traditional Zen services (bowing and reciting scriptures). Additional detailed instruction in how to hold services will be available for those who are interested.
    I got back from the sesshin last night. It was a very deep experience for me and I have not fully digested it all yet. The first full day I felt very sleepy and with a headache. There were some very noisy birds in the trees outside the mediation hall and their harsh grating noise felt like some fiendishly irritating koan challenging what I was doing sitting in zazen, and of course Suzuki's Blue Jay came to mind The second day the sleepiness cleared and the physical discomfort of sitting took over, with up to eleven sessions of zazen each day. From midday of the third and last full day I stopped resisting things like this and I was just sitting there. The final session of this day I felt a great sense of comradeship with the other people sitting with me in the dimly lit, intimately silent hall.

    The sesshin was held in silence which I appreciated a lot after a while. Beforehand I had expected that not being able to talk would be somewhat lonely but in fact I felt doing things together without talking led to a greater feeling of community with everyone else. Talking seems to add a lot of often unnecessary overhead to interacting with other people and it was lovely to be able to do without this.

    We ate formally in oryoki style for every meal which also became a great shared experience for me.

    Meiya, the teacher, gave us some interesting talks on the role of the forms within Zen practice.

    I also enjoyed the three times daily services very much. The words took on a deeper meaning than I had previously appreciated and the chanting was beautiful.

    It will be interesting to see how I am affected by this experience in the weeks ahead.

    :Charles

  29. #29

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesC
    I got back from the sesshin last night.

  30. #30

    Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

    Hi,

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Quote Originally Posted by Eika
    Quote Originally Posted by jrh001
    I've only read the first two but have also begun to see the texts "merging". I'd also add that Trust in the Heart by Sengcan (3rd Chinese Ancestor) has similarities with the Sandokai. It was written after the Heart Sutra and before the Sandokai.

    I suppose that's what lineage is all about - the undistorted message is transmitted through time and space.

    JohnH

    (Link to two translations of Trust in the Heart: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfj5swv9_34577zjrhd)
    Thanks for the link, I'd never heard of this poem.

    Bill
    Hey Bill,

    Pardon me for citing Wiki, but the hour is late. The Xin Xin Ming is one of the biggies, right up there with what we are reading, the Heart Sutra and a few others of that ilk ...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinxin_Ming

    Here is a version I like (about not having "likes" and "dislikes") ...

    The Way of the supreme is not difficult,

    If only people will give up preferences.

    Like not, dislike not.

    Be illuminated.

    If you are off by a millimeter,

    You will be off by as much as earth is separate from heaven.

    If you want to see Truth,

    Call no life experience favorable or unfavorable.

    To be caught between favorable and unfavorable

    Is the sickness of the mind.

    If you miss this key point,

    Any practice of meditation would only be a waste of time.
    For those interested in the Xin Xin Ming, please have a look at Gregory Wonderwheel's new translation as well, hot off the press here: http://www.zenforuminternational.org/vi ... 170#p17128

    Gassho
    Bansho

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