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Thread: Saying More With Less ...

  1. #1

    Saying More With Less ...

    Hi All!

    I love good debates and discussions (don't get me started!!) :wink: I can (and often will) go on all night!

    But a Zen Sangha must be a place primarily of silence. We must talk some about our Practice, but only with great reluctance. We can reason about what we "do". But often, the more we reason and analyze, the further we are from its truths. (In that regard, it is precisely the difference between silence, and talking about silence). A Zen Sangha is an endless silent retreat, with a few words of guidance and encouragement here and there.

    We all have to be careful about getting caught by the racing mind. Ideas are fascinating, but there can be too many sometimes to allow for sound Zen Practice (which requires a solid dose of "quiet" ... a Practice of "non-thinking"). That does not mean that we should do without all words or discussion ... far from it. But we should often keep to a philosophy of "less is more". Do you know that, in Chinese and Japanese painting (like Zen Practice) ... the portion that speaks the greatest truths is empty space?



    The way to practice silence and simplicity is so often silence and simplicity.

    How about I make a suggestion to everybody in the Sangha (except folks who never or infrequently post ... THEY SHOULD POST MORE! ): Cause yourself to skip two out of three postings you wish to make, and answer with silence.

    It is like Mushin's excellent practice of looking for the space between breaths (which I fully support ... just not during Shikantaza). We need to respond to more ideas and questions with silence and simplicity, the spaces between words ... not animated conversations in the hallways. PLEASE DON'T STOP POSTING AND COMMUNICATING (just like we should not stop breathing), keep great thoughts and inspirations coming to be shared by all, but be reserved ... hesitant to speak ... of few words ...

    Sometimes, maybe most times, we can best talk about "Zen" ... and these topics ... with stillness, silence, a Buddha's smile.

    By the way, the foregoing applies to everybody but me ... because every word out of my mouth is pure gold! :shock:

    Am I clear, or have I said too much?

    Gassho, Jundo

  2. #2

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    yes









    hee, hee
    lora

  3. #3
    Stephanie
    Guest

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    I was going to reply to this, but I decided not to :wink:

    OMMMM...

    :mrgreen:

  4. #4

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    8)

  5. #5

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Hi Guys,

    I didn't say to be completely quiet. I said to perhaps drop 3 out of 4 (if that is too much ... 2 out of 3 thoughts, sentences, postings ). Answer the rest with silence, with "non-thinking" or complete stillness.

    Whisper more too, and be stingy with the words we must use. Everything in moderation.

    But please don't go away! Please don't stop all the discussions! Even the ink painting has black lines amid the open spaces.

    Gassho, Jundo

  6. #6

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    No .... Jundo, .... .... drift.

    .... gassho, Kev

  7. #7

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Got it Jundo
    - Be nice
    - Keep it short
    - Post less
    Cheers
    Jools :wink:

  8. #8
    Treeleaf Unsui rculver's Avatar
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    Re: Saying More With Less ...


  9. #9

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    i knew from retreats that just one conversation would reverberate thru my head for days -- i would reherse my weekly 15 minute interview w/teacher during the week-- maddening!

    but what i didn't know, til now, is that the forum has the same effect on me -- so i started posting less, which isn't easy, cause the discussions are so interesting -- and when i "need" to say something, i've been composing it, then deleting it -- feels great!

    and i really enjoy sitting with others in the zen hall, which is its own special form of communication -- think i sat with will the other day -- hi will

    gassho, bob

  10. #10

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    I have not posted much at all... but probably should more, I like to wait and see how things turn out as I feel that opinions are just that... opinions. I have learned so much here by just keeping quiet. but I have no gauge if what believe is "true" without feedback and guidance from others. So I am one of the opposites that Jundo refers to. Anyway Hello all, and hopefully I can come out of my shell.

    Gassho,
    Damian

  11. #11

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Much told Zen story

    ....... where a monk is only allowed to speak once every 10 years.
    After first 10 years novice monk says "food cold"
    After second 10 years novice monk says "bed hard"
    After thirty years monk says "Food still cold bed still hard I'm leaving"
    The Master of the Monastery says
    "Thats OK all he ever did was complain.."
    Jools

  12. #12
    Senior Member Kent's Avatar
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    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    I don't post often and when i do it's brief. i subscribe to the KISS principle......Keep It Simple Sangha Kent

  13. #13

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Bob
    think i sat with will the other day -- hi will
    Hi Bob, but I don't think that was me. I haven't been in the Zen hall for a couple of weeks.



    Gassho Will

  14. #14

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Gassho

  15. #15

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    I feel that when I'm ready for something, I'll do it. And until then I'll just carry on doing what I always do...
    Is that just because I'm stubborn?

    A bid to keep a bit more silence might work for a while, but unless people are really ready to do it, it won't be long-term...
    Does that matter? Is it not better to just let people think and write until they run out of stuff to think and write? I dunno! All I know is, I'd hate to be a zen teacher. You've got to be confident in your opinions...

    My understanding is limited of people's choices, why people do what they do, and the internal mechanisms of change, so I don't know whether this idea is a good idea or not.

    But for me, personally,as long as there are still people to sit with in the Zendo, treeleaf is a nice place to be

  16. #16

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    _()_

  17. #17

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Quote Originally Posted by HezB
    from: http://nyokai.com/tips/index.php?n=Tips.Ma

    ... if in doubt, do what ma says


    I've often wondered how come the Zen tradition, whose transmission is heart to heart without words, has such an amazing body of literature.

    Gassho,

    Linda

  18. #18
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Quote Originally Posted by lindabeekeeper
    Quote Originally Posted by HezB
    from: http://nyokai.com/tips/index.php?n=Tips.Ma

    ... if in doubt, do what ma says


    I've often wondered how come the Zen tradition, whose transmission is heart to heart without words, has such an amazing body of literature.

    Gassho,

    Linda
    LOL! You're right....they all say 'You can't explain it in words.' Then they write books.

    On the other hand, sometimes the books inspire one's practice, so...

  19. #19

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Quote Originally Posted by will
    Bob
    think i sat with will the other day -- hi will
    Hi Bob, but I don't think that was me. I haven't been in the Zen hall for a couple of weeks.



    Gassho Will
    will -- you know what they say, you see one shaved head, you've seen them all (got that from ronald reagan, kinda) -- particularly out of the corner of one's eye

    whoever ever it was, and will too, "hola, amigo"

  20. #20

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Hi, Jundo...

    I think we must use the KISS system...

    KISS = Keep It Simple and Smart...

    Gassho, Shuidi

  21. #21
    Senior Member KellyRok's Avatar
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    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Hello Jundo and all,

    You are as clear as the cloudless blue sky.

    I don't post often, feeling as though I have nothing of real value to contribute as of yet. I choose to stay silent and to learn from your experience. I will try to post more, I may not have any good advice, but I am here thinking about all of you always.

    Gassho,
    Kelly Rok

  22. #22

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Gassho.

  23. #23

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Thank you Jundo for this important message.

    Gassho,

    Greg

  24. #24

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    indeed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gregor
    Thank you Jundo for this important message.

    Gassho,

    Greg
    ^^Greg you said it best awhile ago here.

    Gassho, Dirk

  25. #25
    Senior Member AlanLa's Avatar
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    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Yeah, it has seemed a bit loud in here lately, at least to me. So I will try to say this quietly. When I read postings here, just because they stir up ideas in my mind does not mean I have to share those ideas. And when I post, I try to do so mindfully. This takes some of the spontaneity out of it, but it also let's me distill rain into rain drops (for example, I pondered this post for 2-3 days, and now here it is in its own time, simply fine). Finally, just because we have free expression here does not mean it is a free-for-all, meaning chaos (which has its own place elsewhere).

    These thoughts are nothing more or nothing less than IMHO.

    And now I need a break from the forum for the rest of the day...

  26. #26

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    How about I make a suggestion to everybody in the Sangha ....... Cause yourself to skip two out of three postings you wish to make, and answer with silence.
    Probably the first time I'm not shocked when a forum admin/creator would ask people to post less. Silence can be golden.

    In total agreement,
    Brian

  27. #27

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Hi All!

    I love good debates and discussions (don't get me started!!) :wink: I can (and often will) go on all night!

    But a Zen Sangha must be a place primarily of silence. We must talk some about our Practice, but only with great reluctance. We can reason about what we "do". But often, the more we reason and analyze, the further we are from its truths. (In that regard, it is precisely the difference between silence, and talking about silence). A Zen Sangha is an endless silent retreat, with a few words of guidance and encouragement here and there.

    We all have to be careful about getting caught by the racing mind. Ideas are fascinating, but there can be too many sometimes to allow for sound Zen Practice (which requires a solid dose of "quiet" ... a Practice of "non-thinking"). That does not mean that we should do without all words or discussion ... far from it. But we should often keep to a philosophy of "less is more". Do you know that, in Chinese and Japanese painting (like Zen Practice) ... the portion that speaks the greatest truths is empty space?

    Am I clear, or have I said too much?

    Gassho, Jundo
    Hi Jundo,

    Yes I think you have been quite clear. My experience of reading your post is that you have very clearly expressed that you believe you have the right to speak for people other than yourself (or do you believe you are psychic?) and to tell other people what to do (or rather, to strongly suggest what they should do). "We should....", "we have to be careful....", "sangha should be a place of silence....", "A Zen Sangha is an endless silent retreat, with a few words of guidance and encouragement here and there. " Perhaps some other zen sangha is like that, but rather obviously Treeleaf is not. But if there is not enough silence for you, Jundo, then stop reading for awhile. I promise you that if things get ugly or a problem develops, someone will send you a PM.

    My ethics is that I believe in respecting other people's right to make choices for themselves. If people wish to write then I believe I they should write (it does no harm since no one is required to read it), if people wish to not write then I would not dream of not respecting that choice. I believe "doing no harm" begins with not telling people what to do, and even BEFORE that, dropping the judgment that I know what's "best" for someone else. This is how I define "respect".

    However, if you have some concern (such as "I, Jundo, am concerned that perhaps some people might be getting tangled up in theoretical analysis of zen buddhism") then I hope you express your concern as we all express our concerns for each other (and the universe in general).

    Me, I read/listen here at Treeleaf to benefit from EVERYBODY's individual and uniquely personal understanding.

    thank you for your time,
    rowan
    who has to book time to get fabric so she can sew up a rakusu this weekend

  28. #28

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ros

    Hi Jundo,

    Yes I think you have been quite clear. My experience of reading your post is that you have very clearly expressed that you believe you have the right to speak for people other than yourself (or do you believe you are psychic?) and to tell other people what to do (or rather, to strongly suggest what they should do).

    Perhaps some other zen sangha is like that, but rather obviously Treeleaf is not.
    Hello Ros,

    Yes, I have that right (though not psychic), and around here, I suggest what folks should do. Sometimes I happily tell them what to do too!

    Treeleaf is precisely that, a teaching Sangha. I hope you did not have some other impression.

    Thank you for your time too. :wink:

    Gassho, Jundo (for better or worse, the teacher)

  29. #29

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Well I'm a bit confuddled :?

    Jundo has always been the 'teacher' here, it's his gaff 'Treeleaf Sanga', he seems a good teacher and landlord and is very light handed when some decide turn the music up. No bans, heavy moderation...

    I have no problem with him asking people to use kind words, think before they post, or not to use it as some sort of group therapy/counselling service.

    He's a bit more Ben Kenobi than Darth Vader don't you think :?:

    In gassho, Kev

  30. #30

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Hi all,

    Maybe an option would be to create a subforum, a "Zen barbershop" or "Zen cafe" for shooting the breeze/bull? And then have another one which is directed more specifically to questions and discussions arising from Jundo's teaching? That way, those who need a place to vent or chat would have one, and those preferring a quieter or more structured environment would have one too...

    Just a thought...hope I am not stepping on toes here.

    Gassho,
    Rob

  31. #31

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Also, on another but not necessarily unrelated note, does anyone use the Treeleaf IRC? I got my computer all set up with a Firefox chatzilla plug-in, etc, but every time I log on there's only me and "Mika".

    Rob

  32. #32

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Quote Originally Posted by ros

    Hi Jundo,

    Yes I think you have been quite clear. My experience of reading your post is that you have very clearly expressed that you believe you have the right to speak for people other than yourself (or do you believe you are psychic?) and to tell other people what to do (or rather, to strongly suggest what they should do).

    Perhaps some other zen sangha is like that, but rather obviously Treeleaf is not.
    Hello Ros,

    Yes, I have that right (though not psychic), and around here, I suggest what folks should do. Sometimes I
    happily tell them what to do too!

    Treeleaf is precisely that, a teaching Sangha. I hope you did not have some other impression.

    Thank you for your time too. :wink:

    Gassho, Jundo (for better or worse, the teacher)
    Teaching is about the teacher offering their personal understanding. To assert that your personal understanding is something other than that is, I believe an illusion.

    regards,
    rowan

  33. #33

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Quote Originally Posted by HezB
    Dear Jundo,

    Should someone be here if they don't really consider you 'their teacher' as such?

    Thank-you for clarifying this matter further.

    Regards,

    Harry.
    Hi Harry,

    I thought we are all here to teach each other? "to be enlightened by all things".

    regards,
    rowan

  34. #34

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    My two cents, just because I love words. This seems to have developed into a discussion regarding form of organization--hierarchy vs something else (I've seen opposites shown as anarchy, tyranny, equality and heterarchy). Just to use the last as a premise, hierarchy involves acceptance of levels of authority. Heterarchy is a form of organization resembling a network, or fishnet. It's a spectrum, and partly why there are 50 zillion Christian denominations from one end to the other of that spectrum.

    Here, in deference to the overriding concept of the Middle Way, or as Jundo mentioned the other day, the 'balance in the moment'--we need both. In my opinion, this sangha has been a very successful balance heretofore. Ros--even a fishnet needs a fisherman to pull it in, and cast out the boots that were gathered in with the tuna. Harry--that balance also speaks to -- what someone said--not putting another head on top of our own. But you already knew that. Gassho, Ann

  35. #35

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    If one only listens to one teacher to the utter exclusion of everything else, then it might just as well be scientology, or perhaps a tibetan lineage.

    Some have studied with more than one teacher for many, many years before committing themselves and even then if it's a good teacher they do not expect their student to have a "mind meld"! In some cases the student went to extreme measures (as in lopping off an arm) to convince the teacher they wanted to even accept them.

    O.K. children, today we're going to the airport, right after we shave our heads.

    Oh, and don't forget your beads.

    Many blessings,
    Lora

  36. #36

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    I go sit now.

    Lora

  37. #37

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Hi,

    If you or I were to register for a yoga class, a jazz piano class, a pottery class, etc, there would normally be a teacher. And that teacher would consider it part of his or her job to set some of the parameters for the class. By agreeing to such an arrangement, is one simply a mindless drone or a Scientologist? Of course, at some level the role of "teacher" is as illusory as anything else. Still, there can be practical value to it, especially for beginners.

    Also, isn't the teacher-student hierarchy fairly well-established in Zen? If I understand correctly, as a practice which originally claimed to be a teaching "outside the sutras", it has placed high importance on personal transmission. Now, this doesn't mean updates aren't needed, and certainly I hope Jundo isn't going to start attacking us with a virtual fly-swatter.

    Gassho,

    Rob

  38. #38
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Longdog
    Well I'm a bit confuddled :?

    Jundo has always been the 'teacher' here, it's his gaff 'Treeleaf Sanga', he seems a good teacher and landlord and is very light handed when some decide turn the music up. No bans, heavy moderation...

    I have no problem with him asking people to use kind words, think before they post, or not to use it as some sort of group therapy/counselling service.

    He's a bit more Ben Kenobi than Darth Vader don't you think :?:

    In gassho, Kev
    Different teachers do things very differently. As for the 'therapy' question, very often my ex would say, 'I talked to Roshi about our relationship today and I got some very clear insights'.

    Those of us who are a bleeding mess will be a bleeding mess no matter where we go. If we are not welcome here as we are, well - that's not much different than most places we go.

    Every Sangha I've been to (*I admit, not officially a part of) has had it's psychodramas. The only difference has been whether that psychodrama was open and visible, or whether it was hidden while everyone pretended to be a 'good Buddhist'. Why everyone tries to sweep this stuff under the carpet is beyond me.

    As a perfect example - Stephanie and I could have not had somewhat harsh words for each other a while back. We could have hidden our real reactions while speaking 'kind' words - resenting the heck out of each other and resisting absolutely everything the other person wrote for weeks or months. I actually see this kind of behavior in most sanghas. Heck, this kind of behavior is often what tears sanghas apart or drives people away.

    My commitment to this sangha is to be as unflinchingly honest as I possible can be. If I'm a mess, I'm expected to hide it from my work peers, the grocer, the banker, and anyone with whom I'm casually acquainted...but a sangha is a place for authentic communication. Am I really expected to hide it from my 'spiritual friends'? And if so, what sort of friends are these?

    Don't get me wrong. Abusive behavior is not to be tolerated. But seriously? If someone is posting borderline useful stuff a lot, I actually take it as my practice to tolerate them to the best of my ability. Heck, it's a lot easier on a D/F where you can just ignore or not read those posts. Compared to pedestrian conversations where you have to listen to someone prattle on about their dog or their nephew - the prattle here is positively useful.

  39. #39

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Longdog
    ....or not to use it as some sort of group therapy/counselling service.
    OK Chet, I guess I actually don't have a problem with that, within reason, and shouldn't have put that. Yeh the sanga is there to support each other, some thing I've benefitted from myself.

    In gassho, Kev

  40. #40
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Hi All,

    For what it's worth, I really don't understand the folks who are giving Jundo a hard time here. He's the teacher and this is his site. If he has certain guidelines he wants folks to follow then we follow them. That isn't mindless...it's agreeing to principles laid out by Jundo or any other group activity. If you don't like them, you don't have to come here. I don't say that to suggest anyone leave by any means..please don't leave! I just mean that this is a place of learning and asking people to think before they type is just prudent. Think of the entire site as an actual zendo and speak to others as you would in any other.

    Gassho,
    Scott

  41. #41
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    I can't tell if Harry is pulling my leg or not.

    I don't know about talking in the Zendo....Is the discussion forum really the Zendo? I think of it more like the place next to the kitchen where we eat cookies after sitting. Certainly, no one sits in this space.

    When I decide to go to the online 'Zendo' and sit, I will be very respectful and VERY quiet. I will follow protocol to the letter. I will even learn Oryoki if Jundo deems it necessary.

    Pardon me if I've misunderstood the nature of the discussion forum.

    That said, the interaction I've had here has reignited an urge to develop my practice like nothing else has in the last ten years. So thank you for that.

  42. #42
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    If the forum is the Zendo, we shouldn't speak individually at all.

    Chet

  43. #43
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Quote Originally Posted by HezB
    Yes, what would a dead Japanese guy do?

    Regards,

    H.
    Now you're being rather aggressively nasty.

    You should read Will's post about speaking for others.

  44. #44

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    I'm hesitant to wade in here, but here goes:
    It seems that some of the reaction to Jundo's post is a bit off balance. All I read in his post was the same thing that other Zen teachers in the past have said. I'm paraphrasing, but things like, "Choose your words carefully, weighing cost and benefit of them." "Whenever you have the urge to speak, act on those urges only one time out of ten." And so on. I cannot remember hearing or reading where a Zen teacher has suggested that we speak more or that we must express ourselves more. Otherwise, we risk taking our thoughts too seriously by believing that they are all worthy of sharing. So, economy with words appears to be a theme in Zen in my experience.
    I don't want to live under some kind of censorship, but that's not what I see here.

    S. Suzuki: "Most people who visit a Zen Center find it a strange place. "They do not talk so much. They do not even laugh. What are they doing?" Those who are accustomed to big noises may not notice, but we can communicate without talking so much." Not Always So, p. 11.

    Bill

  45. #45

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    This is just getting a bit silly.

  46. #46
    disastermouse
    Guest

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Quote Originally Posted by DontKnow
    I'm hesitant to wade in here, but here goes:
    It seems that some of the reaction to Jundo's post is a bit off balance. All I read in his post was the same thing that other Zen teachers in the past have said. I'm paraphrasing, but things like, "Choose your words carefully, weighing cost and benefit of them." "Whenever you have the urge to speak, act on those urges only one time out of ten." And so on. I cannot remember hearing or reading where a Zen teacher has suggested that we speak more or that we must express ourselves more. Otherwise, we risk taking our thoughts too seriously by believing that they are all worthy of sharing. So, economy with words appears to be a theme in Zen in my experience.
    I don't want to live under some kind of censorship, but that's not what I see here.

    S. Suzuki: "Most people who visit a Zen Center find it a strange place. "They do not talk so much. They do not even laugh. What are they doing?" Those who are accustomed to big noises may not notice, but we can communicate without talking so much." Not Always So, p. 11.

    Bill
    Um. How are we supposed to communicate here without posting?

    That's a rather innocent question - but due to the nature of the beast of this medium, an appropriate one.

  47. #47

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Hi, Chet.
    Fair question. All I heard was to be prudent in posting, not to stop.
    Bill

  48. #48
    Senior Member Kent's Avatar
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    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregor
    This is just getting a bit silly.
    Thank you Gregor

  49. #49

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Quote Originally Posted by no hobby for me
    Quote Originally Posted by Gregor
    This is just getting a bit silly.
    Thank you Gregor
    Also, the irony is not wasted on me that the thread that is supposed to be about posting less is the one with the flurry of postings . . . guilty as charged. (I knew I shouldn't have posted . . . Mara made me do it.)

    Bill

  50. #50

    Re: Saying More With Less ...

    Quote Originally Posted by DontKnow
    Quote Originally Posted by no hobby for me
    Quote Originally Posted by Gregor
    This is just getting a bit silly.
    Thank you Gregor
    Also, the irony is not wasted on me that the thread that is supposed to be about posting less is the one with the flurry of postings . . . guilty as charged. (I knew I shouldn't have posted . . . Mara made me do it.)

    Bill
    D'oh! I just posted too! ops:

    Gotta say, I must have missed something 'cause all I could see was that pretty picture Jundo posted. Haven't sat in two stinkin' weeks because work was getting me down. Yeah, pretty bassackwards since sitting would have been just the thing I needed but noooooo, I let myself get more crabby. But, I'm back and I'm gonna hit the zen hall in a minute.

    Ciao!

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