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Thread: deleted(or topic changed I guess)

  1. #1

    deleted(or topic changed I guess)

    Thanks for your posts.

    Gassho

  2. #2
    Treeleaf Unsui Yugen's Avatar
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    Re: This Zazen is great

    Will,
    Thanks for raising this topic. I am very grateful to have found this "shikantaza" stuff. I would like to say how grateful I am, but then gratitude and attraction to a style of practice is itself attachment, so my response is "just sit!" I appreciate Nishijima's statement on the webcast to "just sit" - it is such a profound concept. The challenge I have accepted as of late is to sit when I do not want to - when I am tired, impatient, agitated, or feeling emotions and my first instinct is to say "I don't need this right now." Shikantaza is not just for fair weather sailing, but also for times when the waves of the mind build up to storm force. The imagery of the waves and water is appropriate here - the nature of water does not change and waves are part of the water. The waves will pass and subside, but the nature of water will never change. This sangha is an essential part of my practice as well. The ability to share and engage in dialogue with you is essential.

    Gassho,
    Alex

  3. #3
    Senior Member kirkmc's Avatar
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    Re: This Zazen is great

    It's not supposed to be great, it's supposed to be boring.

    Kirk

  4. #4

    Re: This Zazen is great

    If body and mind are droped off, what is booring or great?

    It's easy to want to judge your ZaZen as sompthing.
    Harder to just let it be zaZen.

    ~Gassho,
    Jordan

  5. #5

    Re: This Zazen is great

    deleted

  6. #6
    Senior Member Kent's Avatar
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    Re: This Zazen is great

    Well i don't know if my practice is good but i do sit every day, and am learning more about practice than i ever thought possible. My thanks to Treeleaf, Jundo and all the good sangha members. Gassho Kent

  7. #7

  8. #8
    Stephanie
    Guest

    Re: This Zazen is great

    Quote Originally Posted by will
    I was feeling intimate at the time
    Resisting impulse to make crass joke... resisting... resisting...

    :mrgreen:

  9. #9

    Re: This Zazen

    del

  10. #10

    del

    del

    Gassho Will

  11. #11

    Re: This Zazen is great

    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan
    If body and mind are droped off, what is booring or great?

    It's easy to want to judge your ZaZen as sompthing.
    Harder to just let it be zaZen.

    ~Gassho,
    Jordan
    Well, I might put it this way ...

    Dropping all judgments, and thoughts of "good" or "bad" ... is very very GOOD!

    Gassho, Jundo

  12. #12

    Re: deleted

    I was having a bit of an off morning this morning. I didn't want to cause more karma. Smile

    The intimacy thing still stands. And so does enjoying yourself.

    Can't see the links or pics btw Harry (proxy server).

    G,W

  13. #13

    Re: deleted(or topic changed I guess)

    Hey, but I liked your post.

    Gassho, Jundo

    Ps - Yes, we can 'like things' beyond 'like' or 'dislike' ! Or even beyond 'things' or 'no things'!!

  14. #14

    Re: This Zazen is great

    Quote Originally Posted by kirkmc
    It's not supposed to be great, it's supposed to be boring.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan
    If body and mind are droped off, what is booring or great?

    It's easy to want to judge your ZaZen as sompthing.
    Harder to just let it be zaZen.
    (I think) I see where both of you are coming from. But the idea that practice is supposed to be this way or that way -- or that we should just drop what it's supposed to be like and just let it be zazen -- doesn't make it that way. Sometimes I get up from sitting and I feel great. Sometimes I get up from sitting and feel like crap. Sometimes I really enjoy sitting and sometimes it drives me so mad I want to jump up from the cushion and scream. It isn't a matter of wanting it to be a certain way, or of wanting to judge it. These feelings come up whether I (we? or is that presumptuous?) want them to or not.

    Does that mean I'm doing it wrong?

    --Charles

  15. #15

    Re: This Zazen is great

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles

    ... But the idea that practice is supposed to be this way or that way -- or that we should just drop what it's supposed to be like and just let it be zazen -- doesn't make it that way. Sometimes I get up from sitting and I feel great. Sometimes I get up from sitting and feel like crap. Sometimes I really enjoy sitting and sometimes it drives me so mad I want to jump up from the cushion and scream. It isn't a matter of wanting it to be a certain way, or of wanting to judge it. These feelings come up whether I (we? or is that presumptuous?) want them to or not.

    Does that mean I'm doing it wrong?

    --Charles
    Hi Charles,

    Allowing things to just be the way they are, no judging, not resisting, being with the flow, allowing 'happy' days to be happy and 'sad' days to be sad, all while dropping all idea of 'happy' and 'sad', whether really enjoying or really not enjoying ... fully dropping away any and all thought of doing Zazen 'right' or doing it 'wrong' ... THIS IS DOING IT RIGHT. And when you are doing it right, it will usually feel like you are doing it right, for there is no resistance, and a great sense of balance.

    Fighting things, wishing things were some other way that how they are, judging, resisting, going against the grain and the flow, wishing 'sad' days were happy or 'happy' days were happier ... filled with a sense of self bumping up against all the other 'selfs', with a mind held by thoughts of doing Zazen 'right' or doing it 'wrong' ... THIS IS DOING ZAZEN WRONG. And when you are doing it wrong, it will usually feel like you are doing it wrong, for there is resistance, and a sense of imbalance.

    But as well, even at those times when Zazen feels 'wrong', when there is resistance or imbalance ... it is still 'right', still 'Zazen', still just what it is. It cannot be wrong.

    Yes, that is a Koan. Is it clear? Please really really penetrate in your body and mind what I just wrote.

    Gassho, Jundo

  16. #16

    Re: This Zazen is great

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Allowing things to just be the way they are, no judging, not resisting, being with the flow, allowing 'happy' days to be happy and 'sad' days to be sad, all while dropping all idea of 'happy' and 'sad', whether really enjoying or really not enjoying ... fully dropping away all ideas of doing Zazen 'right' or doing it 'wrong' ... THIS IS DOING IT RIGHT. And when you are doing it right, it will usually feel like you are doing it right, for there is no resistance.

    Fighting things, wishing things were some other way that how they are, judging, resisting, going against the grain and the flow, wishing 'sad' days were happy or 'happy' days were happier ... filled with a sense of self bumping up against all the other 'selfs', with a mind held by ideas of doing Zazen 'right' or doing it 'wrong' ... THIS IS DOING ZAZEN WRONG. And when you are doing it wrong, it will usually feel like you are doing it wrong, for there is resistance.
    Yes. But knowing this, and not having that resistance, aren't the same. It isn't something I can force, you know? Sometimes the resistance is there. I keep sitting but it isn't always something I can just make go away. Sometimes the only way to 'deal' with that resistance is to just keep sitting even though it's there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    But as well, even when Zazen feels 'wrong' ... it is still 'right', still 'Zazen', still just what it is.
    You've said this before, and I've listened to it, and it's very helpful. Actually, for me, it's one of the most helpful things you've taught here. It's the reason I usually keep sitting even when it feels wrong and I don't want to keep at it. And I'm glad I do, because I think that doing this practice only when it feels good would be a mistake. Sometimes I feel like sitting when I don't want to is better for me than sitting when I do want to. Being faced with the fact that something as 'trivial' as having to sit on a cushion when I don't want to, makes me want to scream, is important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Yes, that is a Koan. Is it clear? Please really really penetrate in your body and mind what I just wrote.
    Yeah, I'm working on that. I don't think this is something that comes all at once, for me at least. Some days it's like that and some days it's not.

    --Charles

  17. #17

    Re: This Zazen is great

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    Allowing things to just be the way they are, no judging, not resisting, being with the flow, allowing 'happy' days to be happy and 'sad' days to be sad, all while dropping all idea of 'happy' and 'sad', whether really enjoying or really not enjoying ... fully dropping away any and all thought of doing Zazen 'right' or doing it 'wrong' ... THIS IS DOING IT RIGHT. And when you are doing it right, it will usually feel like you are doing it right, for there is no resistance, and a great sense of balance.

    Fighting things, wishing things were some other way that how they are, judging, resisting, going against the grain and the flow, wishing 'sad' days were happy or 'happy' days were happier ... filled with a sense of self bumping up against all the other 'selfs', with a mind held by thoughts of doing Zazen 'right' or doing it 'wrong' ... THIS IS DOING ZAZEN WRONG. And when you are doing it wrong, it will usually feel like you are doing it wrong, for there is resistance, and a sense of imbalance.

    But as well, even at those times when Zazen feels 'wrong', when there is resistance or imbalance ... it is still 'right', still 'Zazen', still just what it is. It cannot be wrong.

    Yes, that is a Koan. Is it clear? Please really really penetrate in your body and mind what I just wrote.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Jundo,

    This is one of the most beautiful and succinct explantaions of Zen I've read. Thank you.

    Gassho,
    Keith

  18. #18

    Re: deleted(or topic changed I guess)

    Ps - Yes, we can 'like things' beyond 'like' or 'dislike' ! Or even beyond 'things' or 'no things'!!
    LOL

    G,W

  19. #19

    Re: deleted(or topic changed I guess)

    Ok. Let's go through it.

    excerpt from original post: "I hope everyone is having a good practice."

    Now someone might point out (there is no good or bad). If saying this for the sake of difference or round wisdom, ok "I guess". But if from the stand point of "if one drops bodymind there is no good or bad is like saying dropping bodymind is beyond good and bad, and this in effect is a standpoint in the midst of good, bad and preference."

    If one says the sky is purple, well, we see with our eyes that it is indeed blue, but they like to say it is purple. Fine.

    If one says that Zazen is either Boring, good, bad, emptiness, up, down this is still in the midsts of preference. As is the view point: "One should not be attached to good or bad."

    As is the standpoint that all standpoints are are in the midst of standpoints.

    So I guess we can confer that Zazen is in the midst of and beyond all standpoints and points of views. If one should happen to feel happy, and another thinks that happy is wrong, both are are right.

    Whether one tries to be happy or just let the happy be happy is the point I think. Naturally when bodymind drops there is a natural joy that arises, but to think that this is a natural joy that arises from dropping Bodymind misses the point. The point is to let there be what there is at that moment. In "the phrase" dropping bodymind or sadness, there is what is.

    If it is a gratefulness, or a joy, or a whatever, we let it be. So many standpoints and points of view are one standpoint and point of view beyond objectification, and in the midst there of.

    That is why we can take what I just wrote and use it as toilet paper.

    Gassho yo

    Will

  20. #20

    Re: deleted(or topic changed I guess)

    This makes practice seem a little useless doesn't it. That's the point.

    Kodo Sawaki:

    "Zazen is good for nothing."

    G,W

  21. #21

    Re: This Zazen is great

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles

    Yes. But knowing this, and not having that resistance, aren't the same. It isn't something I can force, you know? Sometimes the resistance is there. I keep sitting but it isn't always something I can just make go away. Sometimes the only way to 'deal' with that resistance is to just keep sitting even though it's there.
    Ah, welcome to the club! That's why they call it "Practice!" Even after all these years, I still face this ... I think lots of us do lots of the time even after years and years of sitting.

    All I can say perhaps is that, well, the best way not to have "resistance" is probably not by resisting the resistance. Otherwise, it is something like trying to get yourself dry by washing away the wetness. Something like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    But as well, even when Zazen feels 'wrong' ... it is still 'right', still 'Zazen', still just what it is.
    You've said this before, and I've listened to it, and it's very helpful. Actually, for me, it's one of the most helpful things you've taught here. It's the reason I usually keep sitting even when it feels wrong and I don't want to keep at it. And I'm glad I do, because I think that doing this practice only when it feels good would be a mistake.
    Yes. When it feels "right", it is right. You know at that moment it is right (as the Buddha used to like to say, "good in the beginning, good in the middle, good in the end"). And even when it is feeling "wrong", it is still right.

    Hopefully, with Practice, it will start to feel "right" more of the time than it feels "wrong".

    What we do around here is so "sane", that it will drive you absolutely nuts to think about it.

    Gassho, Jundo

  22. #22

    Re: deleted(or topic changed I guess)

    Quote Originally Posted by will

    Now someone might point out (there is no good or bad). If saying this for the sake of difference or round wisdom, ok "I guess". But if from the stand point of "if one drops bodymind there is no good or bad is like saying dropping bodymind is beyond good and bad, and this in effect is a standpoint in the midst of good, bad and preference."

    If one says the sky is purple, well, we see with our eyes that it is indeed blue, but they like to say it is purple. Fine.

    If one says that Zazen is either Boring, good, bad, emptiness, up, down this is still in the midsts of preference. As is the view point: "One should not be attached to good or bad."

    As is the standpoint that all standpoints are are in the midst of standpoints.
    Will, your standpoint on standpoints (and the lack thereof) is an interesting standpoint ... and lack thereof.

    I like it! I really do! All while having no opinion on the matter.

    Gassho, Jundo

  23. #23

    Re: deleted(or topic changed I guess)

    Will, your standpoint on standpoints (and the lack thereof) is an interesting standpoint ... and lack thereof.
    LOL. Your killin me over here.

    G,W

  24. #24

    Re: deleted(or topic changed I guess)

    Note: I just got back from shopping. That always leaves me a little flustered.

    But you know, this Zazen is great stuff.

    G,W

  25. #25

    Re: deleted(or topic changed I guess)

    Quote Originally Posted by will
    This makes practice seem a little useless doesn't it. That's the point.

    Kodo Sawaki:

    "Zazen is good for nothing."

    G,W
    Not disagreeing, just adding spice to the stew:

    "Sawaki Roshi used to boom, 'Nothing comes from it at all!' It was his way to touch and draw out the spirit of sacredness regarding Zazen in the people to whom he was speaking. On the other hand, when I myself am asked 'What will come to me from doing Zazen,' I like to answer . . . 'Everything can come of it!'" A Heart to Heart Chat With Old Master Gudo, p. 145.



    Gassho,
    Bill

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