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Thread: IMPORTANT MESSAGE FROM JUNDO

  1. #1

    IMPORTANT MESSAGE FROM JUNDO

    Hi,

    I have posted an important message with today's sitting, and I hope everyone will have a look.

    http://treeleafzen.blogspot.com/2008/02 ... blood.html

    I have not yet reached any decisions, but I will within a few days. For me, one particular message touched me (I said it was by Keishin on the video, but it was from Lynn):

    So, most of us seem to be on a similar flow about guest behaviour based on societal standards: we don't walk into someone's home, throw ourself on the couch, but our shoe-shod feet on the coffee table, demand that our host start making us dinner simply because we've "suited up and shown up", speak snidely, sarcastically and angrily at the other guests, then proceed to berate our host for being intolerant etc. because they want us to please remove our feet from the table, take our shoes off at the door, speak respectfully to others and stop demanding their services as if those services were a requirement to keep *us in the house.

    In the "real time" world, how would that play? Why should it look different in a virtual home and, most importantly, in a virtual zendo? (I will give slack for the fact that *some people may not have been in a real time zendo and are unfamiliar with etiquette and protocol.)

    It might be time for Jundo to be a bit more specific regarding guest behaviours because this is his home and our shared zendo. One can use skillfull means to be clear and still be welcoming.
    We are not an internet Sangha, an internet Forum or a social club. We are a Sangha. If any of you visited a temple. monastery, Zazenkai or Zen Center anywhere from Japan to London to New York, you would be expected to behave in a certain manner. You would be gentle, respectful, soft, open and cooperative with others, respectful and deferential to the teacher. I will keep the same standards here as if people were visiting my temple or Zen Center made of wood and bricks in Tsukuba, Japan. That is just the way it will be.

    The reason is not to massage my ego, or because I am a dictator, or because I want everyone to kiss my ring and take every bit of mumbling out of my mouth as the word of God. The reason is only that this is a place of learning, mutual support and peace ... and a certain environment conducive to that must be kept.

    So, whatever decisions I make, it will not please everyone. However, anyone who has been around this place the past year knows what kind of an open and warm atmosphere we have been able to maintain. There are really only two rules: In this Sangha, we Practice Shikantaza. And, we shall be kind to each other in doing so.

    That means that we shall talk to each other softly, sweetly, gently and in a cooperative and supportive tone without harsh speech or a sharp tongue. If people find it false or say that it "is not their style" or that they disagree, I am sorry. You are free to say anything here, criticize any idea, or raise any question, but you must do so in a respectful, open, positive and non-aggressive manner. The tone does count and I must be the judge.

    For better of worse, I am the teacher here and that requires me to assume a certain role. When the teacher talks, people are expected to listen respectfully. They can doubt anything the teacher says or disagree, they can think his opinions wrong, but they are expected to do so respectfully. Finally, if they are in this place, they are expected to make some effort to comply with the Practices as taught here. A certain Practice is taught here, and that is the reason for the place (again, it is not a social club or a bar).

    There is no Sangha in the world with a written and video record more public than ours. There is no cult activity going on here, there is no abusive situation. There is only a group of people who must maintain a certain society in order to study and Practice. The record clearly shows that the only thing that trips my trigger is folks failing to act in this place with the proper respect for the place, the teacher and fellow practitioners. I am sorry if I am coming across as speaking sharply while telling others not to speak sharply, but it is the teacher's duty and prerogative to tell the class to hush, listen and learn a certain way.

    This is a place of learning. It is our house, it is my house. My standard will be the decorum that would be expected at any bricks and mortar temple, monastery or Zen Center in Asia or in the West.

    Gassho, Jundo

  2. #2
    I would have thought that the expected behaviour Jundo is addressing would be obvious.

    Jundo, I believe this should be a sticky or at least set out at the "entrance" somewhere.

  3. #3
    Well said. I whole heartedly agree

  4. #4
    Thanks, Jundo, for stating this explicitly. The internet brings out the best and the worst of people . . . I hope we can cultivate the best and accept but minimize the worst.

    Bill

  5. #5

  6. #6
    Bravo, Jundo. thanks.

  7. #7
    I will, of course, respect your decisions on this. But haven't we received many mixed messages about just what this place is?

    Have they been mixed messages, or has it been more a matter of people latching onto any percieved disparity in order to justify their own behavior? I think most posters here get the general idea and handle conversations just fine without needing boundaries spelled out for them.

  8. #8
    But haven't we received many mixed messages about just what this place is?
    I've always seen it as tree leaf sangha.

    Who was it that said "as things are viewed, so they appear to be?"

  9. #9
    My wife, would like to say something so I hope Jundő and fellow Leafers won't mind.

    Hello I am Rika. I want to say something from Japanese perspective about Zen.

    Proper manners and etiquette are extremely important to Japanese tradition, and although Jundosan is introducing this online sangha as modern democratic and western Zen, I believe as the root of tradition is Sőtő Zen the Japanese idea of 'rei' is still the heart. 'Rei' is Confucian ideal of correct behaviour and correct manners towards elders and teachers. In Zen there is expected traditional pattern of conduct and a correct mode of behaviour to follow. This is followed by both the teacher as example and by students as respect for teachings. It is very important to show respect and for a student to know her place.

    When a teacher teaches he teaches out of love for his student. A student is in the teacher debt for having been taught something and we call this in Japanese 'on'. 'On' must be repaid with respect and loyalty this is called 'giri'. Students have an obligation [giri] to help each other to understand the teachings of the teacher, to repay the debt [on]. This is traditional Japanese thinking and is not different in Zen sangha. In Japan a student who does not show respect or show manners will be quickly left out of classes and instruction. They will find themselve not advancing or learning anything new and they will leave soon thinking that they are not liked or the teacher is not fair. A teacher usually will not say anything but slowly will ignore that student. But when a student show manner and respect to the teacher the teacher is more open and will show more lessons and give deeper instruction.

    If this is a zendo or not is not important. It is just the same if Jundosan is writing to his students in letters. Jundosan is providing his teachings here to his students who should show respect and manners for his teachings. If it is necessary to make a question it should be polite and with manners if you want to learn. When a teacher gives harsh critiscism it is to make the student think about it not to upset the student. A student who gets upset with a teachers critiscism needs to practice more.
    Thank you

  10. #10
    There's no door holding anyone here. Discuss the teacher's teachings? Absolutely. Publicly debate him after one or two questions? Inappropriate in ANY Sangha. Even so here. that's what PM is for. And we ARE all here voluntarily. There are other Sangas.

  11. #11
    There's no door holding anyone here. Discuss the teacher's teachings? Absolutely. Publicly debate him after one or two questions? Inappropriate in ANY Sangha. Even so here. that's what PM is for. And we ARE all here voluntarily. There are other Sanghas.

  12. #12
    Hi Harry,

    Rika has gone to bed, perhaps she will answer you tomorrow.

  13. #13
    Thank you, Jundo. This is very clear. You are offering a Western format with some leeway in the sharing of ideas, but you are conducting it within the boundaries of traditional Japanese etiquette and protocol for a zendo.

    Harry, he can't be clearer than that. If this is not your idea of a Western Buddhist practice this may not be the right vessel for your particular needs. Playing out the "show me the money" card looking for specifics is really just stalling. Either you wish to be here or you don't. If you do, then Jundo has, as of today, made it clear what needs to be done. So, forget the past and consider today a clean slate and be honest about whether or not you wish to remain and continue sharing under these guidelines. He's not asking you to leave for any past actions, just asking whether or not you want to stay now that there is some clarity in guidelines for interaction.

    And Rika's commentary is absolutely beautiful and eloquently stated.

    One thing that I wonder whether people understand is this: whenever one enters a zendo with a teacher that teacher is their teacher for the time that they reside within the temple. I have seen commentary from others whereby they state, "well, I'm here for sangha...I'm not looking for a teacher." I think that might be a thought that creates confusion because it dismisses Jundo and makes his position as teacher in the zendo somehow superfluous and makes him "just one of the gang" of posters. In my understanding this is very disrespectful and can possibly lead to some disruptive actions.

    I do not wish to work with a teacher, one on one as a formal student, but when I am on Treeleaf, I respect Jundo as my teacher for the time I wish to be here, without question. That doesn't mean I am his "yes man" but I respect him in that capacity and will act accordingly. This is my own personal expression of Beginners Mind. And I am in his zendo. I will remove my shoes.

    As ever...just my NSHO. YMMV. :?

    With bows,

    Lynn

  14. #14
    Rika,

    Thank you for what you had to say. Nothing about it seemed foreign to this American boy. Jun is very lucky to have such a wise wife


    Lynn,

    You really inspire me with the perspective you bring to this situation. I really appreciate your level headinesses and the clarity of your communication on this issue. I think we can all look to your words to help guide us through this.

    Harry,

    I like you, I respect you. I'm glad that you want to stay and work things out. I hope you do.

    I'm not sure if I feel comfortable picking out exact quotations and drumming up more argument. Especially in public. I think I've raked up enough muck.

    I'm sure Jundo will discuss the situation personally with those of us he needs to. However, if you go back and read the thread reflecting on the different perspective that many of us hold, you might understand it a little better. If not, then speak to the people who were involved individually. If you have a specific question for me I'd be more than happy to respond.


    Everyone take care,

    Greg

  15. #15
    I normally would stay out of this as I am not very good at expressing myself with the written word.


    One thing that I wonder whether people understand is this: whenever one enters a zendo with a teacher that teacher is their teacher for the time that they reside within the temple. I have seen commentary from others whereby they state, "well, I'm here for sangha...I'm not looking for a teacher." I think that might be a thought that creates confusion because it dismisses Jundo and makes his position as teacher in the zendo somehow superfluous and makes him "just one of the gang" of posters. In my understanding this is very disrespectful and can possibly lead to some disruptive actions.

    I could not agree more with this statement. Lynn I think you really hit the nail on the head.

    As for you Harry, I find that sometimes I don't know how to take your posts, but I feel that you are here for a reason. I rather look forward to your posts especially, as I never know what to expect from you.

    I guess what I am trying to say is that in the short time since I joined Treeleaf I have gotten to "Eavesdrop" on lots of very interesting threads and I have come to value the thoughts and feelings of several members here. Even though I do not post often, mostly since I am not very good at expressing myself in this medium. I would more than likely not express what I was trying to say the way I would mean to ( just ask the wife! Apparently my speech craft could really use some work as well :wink. I value all of the input from everyone (including the silent majority who choose not to participate in the discussions). I like it here... I like the diversity represented here... I agree with questioning a teaching to better grasp the message, as we all have different backgrounds and understandings. However I believe that if you openly criticize the teaching/teacher it is disrespectful. If a message does not agree with your views of how it should, I think one should question to make sure one really has an understanding of what was being said. I think there is a very broad line between questioning and criticism.

    Now you know why I don't post more
    Do no Harm,
    _/l_
    Damian

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by HezB
    Hi, Gregor.

    My brain switches off when I consider too many opinions and try to worry about every raw nerve. Life's to short. I've got practice, life in general, Jukai, kids, a house move and much more to think about.

    I'm sure it'll all work out fine. I don't see the guillotine being reintroduced or anything.

    Regards,

    Harry.
    Cool Harry, I think we are in accord. No need to make a big thing out of it. I just wanted to offer my perspective in case you were looking for it.

    take care,

    Greg

  17. #17
    Treeleaf Unsui Shohei's Avatar
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    howdy!
    been away on business, so to speak. I dont quite get whats up nor do i need to. Im good with what Jundo posted. Havent see the vid yet. It will have to wait until tomorrow.

    Gassho
    Dirk

  18. #18
    Stephanie
    Guest
    I think this is quite reasonable. And I apologize if I have disturbed the wa here overmuch. Believe it or not, I do care about and respect tradition and the need for authority and deference to that authority to maintain harmony and structure. I respect Jundo, and wouldn't be here mouthing off if I didn't. It's my style to build respect for another person through challenging them, especially if they are in a position of authority. Maybe that seems perverse to some, but it is what it is.

    I think anyone leading or participating in any sort of group, including an online group such as this, would likely benefit immensely from reading material on group process, such as Yalom's classic text, which I am currently reading for a class. A lot of stuff plays out in a group like this, and the person acting as group leader becomes the target for a lot of different emotions and behaviors, everything ranging from abject dependence and idealization to outright hostility. One of the key phases of group formation is one in which people explore issues around power and control, often manifesting this through hostility or challenges to the group leader.

    I think one of the most significant things I've read about group process is that the roles that people in the group take on in the group context don't always come solely from them. We all perform a certain function in the group. If you kick out the rabble-rousers and annoying, belligerent people, you'll find that other folks will step up to fill those roles. I think it's more productive to explore these dynamics, and maybe even get hints of why they are manifesting, than it is to try to squash them.

    I do not believe this place will ever feel like or operate like a "meatspace" zendo, but I don't think that's a bad thing. I believe that if we spend too much time trying to make this place into what it can't be, we'll miss out on what it actually is.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Damian
    I normally would stay out of this as I am not very good at expressing myself with the written word.


    One thing that I wonder whether people understand is this: whenever one enters a zendo with a teacher that teacher is their teacher for the time that they reside within the temple. I have seen commentary from others whereby they state, "well, I'm here for sangha...I'm not looking for a teacher." I think that might be a thought that creates confusion because it dismisses Jundo and makes his position as teacher in the zendo somehow superfluous and makes him "just one of the gang" of posters. In my understanding this is very disrespectful and can possibly lead to some disruptive actions.

    I could not agree more with this statement. Lynn I think you really hit the nail on the head.

    As for you Harry, I find that sometimes I don't know how to take your posts, but I feel that you are here for a reason. I rather look forward to your posts especially, as I never know what to expect from you.

    I guess what I am trying to say is that in the short time since I joined Treeleaf I have gotten to "Eavesdrop" on lots of very interesting threads and I have come to value the thoughts and feelings of several members here. Even though I do not post often, mostly since I am not very good at expressing myself in this medium. I would more than likely not express what I was trying to say the way I would mean to ( just ask the wife! Apparently my speech craft could really use some work as well :wink. I value all of the input from everyone (including the silent majority who choose not to participate in the discussions). I like it here... I like the diversity represented here... I agree with questioning a teaching to better grasp the message, as we all have different backgrounds and understandings. However I believe that if you openly criticize the teaching/teacher it is disrespectful. If a message does not agree with your views of how it should, I think one should question to make sure one really has an understanding of what was being said. I think there is a very broad line between questioning and criticism.

    Now you know why I don't post more
    Do no Harm,
    _/l_
    Damian
    Damian,
    I thought you expressed yourself quite well.
    I look forward to reading more from you!

    Gassho,
    Jordan

  20. #20
    Damien,

    Ditto what Jordan said.

    Don't be afraid to share your thoughts. You were very clear and insightful.

  21. #21
    Hi Rika. Thanks for your perspective. Too bad Jundo had to spell out what should be common sense. Even though we socialize and goof around once in a while, it was clear to me from the beginning that the main purpose of this forum is to facilitate zen practice. Of course adding on the fact that it is Jundo's zendo forum should make it even more clear that Jundo is the teacher. Teachers can't teach if the students look for any little reason to interrupt them and undermine their class. There's a balance between open and fruitful discussion and unproductive chaos. Jundo is trying to find the balance. Let's help that process instead of disrupt it.

    I came here to learn more about zen. I haven't committed to a local group yet. Consequently, this place is the only place where I've been getting information other than reading on my own. Harry, I like you and I think you're funny. However, if you don't mind, I'd like to come in here and see honest discussions on zen or topics related to it. The more effort Jundo and other forum members expend addressing your issues, the less time is spent on zen-related things (or nice things like artwork, music, etc.). That's not fair to newbies like me who are serious about learning.

  22. #22
    I agree; nice post, Damian and Tracy.



    Bill

  23. #23
    I think somebody let my demon off his chain.


    I'm going to go and eat my fish.


    Goodnight

  24. #24
    Hi Guys,

    I think it is a good time to offer a couple of things. Pardon me, but I am a little ill today (and I still need to do the sitting yet! Yes, it is hard somedays! )

    Yes, I think teachers should be treated with common sense respect, be they high school teachers or Zazen teachers in a Sangha. And I respect the lovely essay on Japanese customs that RIka san wrote. I do not need to be treated with all the formaility of the Japanese ... but this is a classroom, a library, a laboratory, and people are trying to learn and gain (un)knowledge. Be polite, whisper and listen. Zen teaching requires a degree of deference to the role of the teacher and willingness to follow his/her advice ... just as learning geometry in the 9th grade requires sitting quietly in class, paying attention, speaking in turn and respectfully, and not talking back to the teacher.

    Please respect the teacher, not because he is Jundo (in fact, depite it), but because he/she is the teacher. It is a two way street, and the teacher must work constantly to earn that respect too. I am happy to have folks doubt or disagree with anything I say, and even debate it publicly, and that's fine. That is welcome.

    But, I am sorry, the best means of discussion and questioning is civil and kind, and not (as was written) a "mouthing off", belligerent rabble-rousing, attack ... it is just not good to have a snarky atmosphere in a Sangha. In fact, we need conduct quite the opposite.

    Sorry, in my geometry classroom, I will not tolerate spitballs, passing notes, bubble gum, cell phones, talking back to the teacher or disturbing other students. One must be deferential in order to learn some geometry.

    Gassho, Jundo

    PS- My teacher, Nishijima, tolerates no belligerence in speaking to him. But his way is to not repond with belligerence in return. It is amazing really: I have seen him yelled at and called racial epithets, and he just keeps smiling and freely discloses all the situation. I sometimes think he is too Lassez Faire in fact.

    PPS- This place is only "not a real Sangha" or not a "meatspace" Sangha if you choose to see it that way. In fact, I think that we have better --daily-- communication here than at many weekly or twice weekly Sangha I have attended. Yes, I cannot give a hug, and I can only see you if we do Sanzen by camera. Still, I think we are doing better in many ways. Heck, can you name a "bricks and mortar" Sangha (or any group, office or family) that is not facing many of the same intrapersonal relations issues we do.

    People don't communicate perfectly just because they are in the same room, and misunderstanding is rife there as well.

    Gassho, Jundo

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by HezB
    Hello, Rika.

    Nice to meet you & and thank you for your insights.

    Most of us here are not Japanese and were not brought up with/ are not familiar with, and do not hold traditional Japanese values.

    I'd be interested to hear on what you though of the idea of developing a Zen Buddhism based in, or accepting of at least, Western cultural values?

    It strikes me that the core values you mention (respect for older people and teachers) are present in the West also. Don't you feel that you can criticize a teacher while still respecting him or her?

    Best Regards,

    Harry.
    Hello it is Rika again. Nice to meet you. I understand that people practicing Zen are not living in Japan or aware of Japanese values. I want to say that it is culture that shapes religion not the other way. Zen was shaped by Chinese culture and Japanese culture so the culture of China and Japan is found deeply in Zen. Respect for your teachers and their teaching is very important. We must question the teaching of Buddha as Buddha told us and to see if it really is what he said. But questioning the teaching of Buddha is not the same as showing disrespect for a teacher or what he teaches. We can ask questions to learn and we can maybe make up our own mind which may be different from the mind of our teacher, but our teacher is responsible for helping us to make up our mind so we must show respect and thanks. We owe a big debt to our teacher for helping us to learn and form our own ideas about the teaching.

    Many years ago I think western values were similar in respect to Japanese values, but that has changed a lot. I do not see respect for teachers and old people in western culture. In Buddhist practice we learn to be compassionate and understanding of others. We learn to accept other people's ways and values and to mould our life into a good respectful life of love and generosity. I believe these values are today lost in western culture. I don't think western religion truly teaches these values. Zen can adopt any cultural values as long as they are equal to the teachings of Buddha. Compassion and understanding, respect and honour are found in even the oldest Buddhist teachings.
    Thank you.

  26. #26
    Hellos to all posting here.
    I haven't had much to say, as I consider myself to be primarily a guest here, and not a full member. By that I mean that I do not watch the daily sit-a-longs with any regularity (it's been about 4-5 months now since I saw one).
    With less time to read and less time to think about and comment on topics, mine is not a strong level of participation at this time.
    From my perspective, all of it is wonderful: everyone's remarks, everyone's comments--all of it--the parts I like and the parts I don't like. I enjoy all the personalities here--the ones I 'mesh' with and the ones not so much.
    Diversity is very healthy. In my view, becoming friends with all aspects of self is learned by finding ways to be on friendly terms with all one encounters.
    And ditto the reverse of that--learning to be on friendly terms with others is a way to learn how to befriend all aspects of self. Outside and inside no difference.

    There is a wonderful 'homework' assignment for students of Korean Zen Master Seung Sahn Sa Nim's:

    Somebody comes into the Zen Center with a lighted cigarette, walks up to the Buddha statue, blows smoke in its face and drops ashes on its lap. You are standing there. What can you do?
    This person has understood that nothing is holy or unholy. All things in the universe are one, and that one is himself. So everything is permitted. Ashes are Buddha, Buddha is ashes. The cigarette flicks. The ashes drop.
    But his understanding is only partial. He has not yet understood that all things are just as they are. Holy is holy, unholy is unholy. Ashes are ashes, Buddha is Buddha. He is very attached to emptiness and to his own understanding and he thinks that all worlds are useless. So whatever you say to him, however you try to teach him, he will hit you. If you try to teach by hitting him back, he will hit you even harder. (He is very strong).
    How can you cure his delusions?
    Since you are a Zen student, you are also a Zen teacher. You are walking on the path of the Bodhisattva, whose vow is to save all beings from their suffering. This person is suffering from a mistaken view. You must help him understand the truth: that all things in the universe are just as they are.
    How can you do this?
    If you find the answer to this problem, you will find the true way.



    With regard to Treeleaf Sangha:
    How can we do this? We are doing it!
    Guests and full members alike.
    Those who will never post, those who will always post.
    Those whose posts are toast.
    Those who have yet to post.

    I'll be too busy to visit for the next couple of days.
    Everyone take care.

  27. #27
    No one is suggesting that any teacher be above criticism. But neither should ongoing debate and criticism be permitted to go on and on in public. wouldn't be permitted in ANY Sangha, and certainly wouldn't be permitted inside a Zendo. Those would be private conversations between student (or students) and teacher, and not allowed to disrupt day to day activity in the rest of the Sangha. Such things are inappropriate, for both student to engage in AND teacher to permit.

  28. #28
    Fair enough. FINALLY an accord.
    We'll agree to drop the whole thing and quit posting about it. Excellent idea, Harry. I agree fully.
    Peace.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by HezB

    I broadly agree with your statement about respect and gratitude for the teacher. But I do not believe that the teacher should be beyond criticism.
    Hi Harry,

    If I may try to respond before Rika san (Jun, you are obviously a very lucky man), a teacher should never be beyond criticism. That would be a highly dangerous situation, first step to abuse and cult-ism.

    Even in Japan, there are many checks, direct and indirect, on teachers in need of criticism. People will often make their opinions known to the teacher, although in language polite by western standards. The students will withhold true respect for the teacher (beyond the formalities), and the teacher's reputation will suffer. Students will vote with their feet and with their overall attitude.

    Yet in really abusive situations in a traditional setting, sometimes the students can do nothing, and have no place to turn. The bad situation will just be covered up or ignored. That is terrible. Thus, as I have written about before, I think that any Sangha must have various checks and balances on authority, just like any body or institution that is going to stay on a good course. For example, in Treeleaf's case, I am sure any problem will become public very fast given the miracle of e-mail, and people will stop coming to sit here. Hard to keep a secret around here!

    However, the general tone of this place (as with any school, library, laboratory, temple or church) should, hopefully, remain respectful, peaceful and polite ... teacher to student, student to teacher, student to student... human being to human being. We all learn from and support each other. Criticism and honesty are always welcome and necessary, but so are soft manners, respect for 'decorum' and gentle speech.

    Note that, in all those old stories of tough, cursing, "icon" smashing masters, rarely was any disturbance allowed to the atmosphere beyond a passing moment.

    Gassho, Jundo

  30. #30
    Hi Folks,

    I haven't posted in awhile, nor have I read any postings until yesterday. On the one hand I felt that I wasn't really contributing to this sangha - just spouting off my opinions on things I really don't know much about. On the other hand I found that I was reading the postings as a guilty pleasure (especially the whole Brad Warner thing) - just reading for entertainment. I admit I still feel like this. But, this thread has reminded me of why I chose to be part of Treeleaf in the first place.

    As a whole I like this sangha. I like the teacher. I like the practice. So, while I may not post a great deal - usually I feel I have nothing to add to the discussion (as I feel in this instance), I appreciate others' words, ideas, support, and suggestions. Let's keep doing this thing.

    Bow (and I mean it),
    Keith

  31. #31
    So many post

    Lets think about the new comers for a second. Now some of us have been sitting for a long time and have gained some insight through our practice, and there is less of a chance that any snarky comment will be taken personally. However, ego gets away from us sometimes. We might take what someone say very personally, of course coming back to our practice we can learn from it.

    A Zendo from my perspective should be a place that nutures Zen practice. What is the best way for that to be done? I think for the past few hundred years the Japanese and Chinese have been doing a fairly good job.

    Jundo is the teacher here and he is here to teach people about Zen practice as he sees fit. He has a lot of experience. I think that an outline of what this place is was definitely needed.

    I found this forum as somewhat of a distraction from my actual practice. I would read what someone said and then go over it in my head. It was a big help to get away from the forum for a few days. There is no blame only practice.

    Respect is essential. To respect every living thing. Not to let our ego get in the way of our happiness and the happiness of others. There is nothing false or fairy like in saying that I wish you all the happiness that life can bring. We must sympathize and be mindful. We shouldn't lose focus of our compassion. It is the duty of those who's practice is further along to handle a situation in a way that their practice has taught them.

    In remembering that you are me and I am you. Your notions of doing harm to someone else vanishes. When someone has a cold it is not their cold. It is our cold.

    I know for a fact that Jundo isn't fooling around. The bird out the window yesterday told me so.

    Just think of the people who are new to Zen practice. Think of the people who are doing harm to themselves through being caught up in their stories. This place is for them too, and we should try to set an example and help whenever we can.

    When I love you I love myself. So lets be mindful of that guy who keeps running our life and telling us what to do. :P

    Gassho Will

  32. #32
    I love how these threads seem to come to a consensus fairly quickly and move on. That's such a rare thing in life, and for Internet forums in particular!

    When I joined, one of the first topics I read was the DSI/BW/SG kerfuffle. I wasn't quite sure what to think, so I read it all carefully and decided it was, in the end, unimportant to my practice or decision to join.

    Just keep in mind that as these discussions are all public, in a way with each post you are also representing the whole sangha.

    Skye

  33. #33
    Senior Member Martin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    Wherever the next mediation is. Every now and then I make it back to Norfolk, England.
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    Well, I've been away for a couple of weeks, and don't know what prompted all this, and probably don't need to know. But I like Jundo's two rules (sit zazen and be kind to one another) and one of the things that makes this sangha special for me is the presence of a teacher. It's what I was looking for. Sure, teachers can - and probably should - be doubted, respectfully (Nietzsche said "You are rewarding a teacher poorly if you always remain a pupil") but a teacher remains a teacher and respect should (and as far as I've seen, here, does) follow. There are plenty of online sanghas without a teacher, and I've been a member of one or two, but I'm happier here, with a teacher.

    Gassho

    Martin

  34. #34
    Hello friends!

    Long time no see. I've missed you all.

    I've taken the time to catch up on the fractures that prompted this thread. All kinds of thoughts and ideas floating in the head after a big dustup like that.

    But I'll just wave hello, shut up, and sit.

    Good to be home. Here's to friendship and civility.

    Gassho

  35. #35
    Now ancient history, and just a passing moment even then ... Nothing worth even recalling.

    Isn't this an excellent example of how Karmic effects can continue to reappear for ages? I am going to let this thread sink to the bottom of the pool.

    Gassho, Jundo

  36. #36

    Re:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jun
    I would have thought that the expected behaviour Jundo is addressing would be obvious.

    Jundo, I believe this should be a sticky or at least set out at the "entrance" somewhere.
    I second that, or third that...

    May the force be with you.
    Tb

  37. #37

    Re: IMPORTANT MESSAGE FROM JUNDO

    How about a sticky that simply says:
    "Everybody be nice."
    And we trust Jundo to define "nice" as the situation warrants?

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