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Thread: Member Comments

  1. #1

    Member Comments

    Hi Everyone,

    I've been doing the sittings on the blog for awhile now, and this Community Forum has been cooking away. So, I think it is a good time to ask for comments and input on how to make it all as good a Sangha experience as possible.

    Please write me publicly or privately with any pointers or advice (in public is best, as everything around here is out in the open).

    My goal is to make all this as close as possible to an actual "Zen Group" in your local town, down the street, that you can just drop into at any time. I think the feeling of community that has built on this forum among members has been really great, and I would like to continue to build on that. A few ideas and comments of my own:

    - I have the capability on the blog to do "group sittings" from time to time, where up to 6 people could simultaneously put a camera on the computer and video themselves sitting Zazen. It would be just like I do it, but with the camera switching back and forth among the six people. It would serve no other purpose than just another way we can all join in. Would it be worth doing from time to time, e.g., once every couple of weeks? Any volunteers?

    - I could also do a "1 on 1" guest-sitter thing, where one of our members at a time will sit with me. The person can lead the talk or just introduce themselves, then sit with me. Any volunteers for that??

    - Do you think the daily sittings on the blog are in a good format? Too much about me? Too much talking? Not enough sitting? Am I being "too cute" with the joking around every day? Should it be in a format that is more just a "Hello, and let's get right down to sitting for the full time"? Are the talks a help in their present format?

    - Do you think I should request everyone on the forum to post as their avatar an actual photo of themselves (as opposed to Harry's hilarious beer guzzling, guitar playing cats ... but I assume that he does not look like that)? Or maybe we should set up a separate section where people can post photos? What we look like on the outside is not important at all ... or is it?

    - Starting in a few months, I am planning to have on-line training in anticipation for Jukai. This would involve study of each of the Precepts over multiple weeks (much as we do the book club chapters, we would discuss each of the precepts one by one) plus sewing a Rakusu. I guess that it will lead to an on-line Jukai ceremony (the first in the world, as far as I know). What do you think? I am also thinking of having one person who is studying for Jukai to be in charge of a particular Precept each week, and that person would have to deliver a video talk (by posting a video like I do on the blog) or, if no camera, to at least writing an essay, in which they discuss the Precept. Something like that.

    - I have not been too insistent on people doing "Samu" (work practice). In our case, that would involve community volunteer work (preferably, hands on actually helping people in need like the sick or elderly) or, for those already loaded with work and family obligations, an intentional commitment to non-do some of those activities as "Samu" practice. We could have a group in which people discuss Samu and support each other. (By the way, I do not accept any "Dana" financial contributions for Treeleaf, as we have sufficient resources for what we are doing. However, I do encourage people to make financial donations to charities that help folks, e.g., feeding the poor, finding a cure for a disease. Both donations and Samu work should be a bit beyond the point where it starts to hurt).

    - Anything else?

    I know I will think of more, but any guidance will be helpful. Please call it like you see it, and don't worry about my feelings (if you are a Zen teacher with thin skin, you should not be a Zen teacher). There is nobody to make this experiment work except for the people who have been participating. I really want to make this the best environment possible for everyone's Zazen.

    Gassho, Jundo

  2. #2
    I don't know if this will help, but it has some interesting ideas about right speech and the internet.

    http://www.bpf.org/tsangha/tsj/senaukerev.html

  3. #3
    Hello everyone - thank you Jundo for requesting our feedback. I am most interested in participating in the study of the precepts and the Jukai ceremony. I would be willing to do a video talk (if I could get my camera to work) or write an essay on a particular precept of the week. Listening to Norman Fischer's talks on Zen ethics, and the precepts in particular, really enhanced my interest in taking refuge formally. I would love to do it here with this thoughtful, warm sangha.

    I also like the idea of asking members to use real pictures of themselves as their avatars on the site. I was on a writers' forum once that asked that of its users and it created a real feeling of intimacy among the group.

    Also, please don't change the joking, lighthearted talks before zazen. They speak to me most of all.

  4. #4
    Hello Jundo, Hello Treeleafers!


    Sorry for not being able to be online a lot these days, but I just started a new job in my old hometown and didn't want to sign a new dsl-contract before I am 100% sure that we'll get another season (I am a script-writer) ...otherwise I might get stuck with additional monthly costs and NO paycheck come October.....only in a worst case scenario mind you

    Comment number one: Just do your thing Jundo, I'm sure we'll scream out loud once you confront us with anything that appears like real BS

    Love the Jukai idea, thread and needle are waiting, and sure, I'd be willing to do a video talk as well (let's face it, I'm a media whore anyway....)

    However, I'd really appreciate it, if there was a possibility to make that video-part of Treeleaf a RESTRICTED area. I don't want people outside of Treeleaf to know my real name and face, due to the nature and the long memory of the internet. Not that I am in any way ashamed to be a bloody buddhist, on the contrary, but I do like my share of privacy and intimacy, especially in a sangha.


    Gassho to all of you,

    Hans

  5. #5
    Senior Member kirkmc's Avatar
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    Jundo,

    I think all ideas are good. I'm not that interested in a group sitting; I think it would be hard to set up with time zone issues, but I think a group discussion, either audio or video, could be good sometimes.

    I think the sittings on the blog are great; I don't sit with you, but listen to your talk, turn off my computer, then sit. I would like to see transcripts of some of your talks, as we discussed privately; I don't know how interested others are, or whether it violates the spirit of impermanence, but there are some very valuable talks that deserve to be recorded.

    As for photos, I don't care either way.

    I'm interested in learning about the precepts, but I have no interest in any ceremony, and especially not in creating or wearing some "sign" of being a "Buddhist". Don't get me wrong; I am very much committed to all this, but what I find best about your teachings is the way you are intensely non-denominational. I don't like "belonging" to things; I don't like being an -ist. (Well, for most things.)

    As for samu, that's interesting; I do certain things to help people with a medical condition that I have, and that takes a fair amount of time already. Also, since I live in The Middle of Nowhere, there is not much community work I could do.

    I'm all in favor of things continuing more or less as they are, but I do agree that there should be something that can unite the sangha a bit more.

    As always, thanks for these valuable teachings!

    Kirk

  6. #6
    Gassho Jundo

    I've been thinking of taking up a collection for Harry's cat. That cat needs to turn off the telly, skip the beer and get out of bed and enjoy the outdoors. (I wonder if that avatar is PETA certified.) :wink:

    I'm already in the process of studying and preparing for jukai on Nov 17. I'm mostly done sewing my rakusu. So, I don't know about the protocols of taking jukai twice so close together. I'd sure be happy to participate in discussions about the precepts and helping with the sewing.

    I'm still looking to a way to take the videos from the blog off-line. Not every time, but sometimes this would be fun. I got them downloading but it is a manual process and I'm having issues with the audio codec.

    I agree with Harry that "there are plenty of other, non-Jundo teachers out there" so just be Jundo.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Martin's Avatar
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    Jundo

    The talks are brilliant, please carry on as they are.

    Group sittings; not sure I have the technology to participate (camera, presumably).

    Photos: for me personally, and especially if the aim is to be like the "Zen group down the road", these would help in building a sense of community. The (few) Zen groups I have known tend to contain people that have faces. Not that I know how to post a photo or anything else as an avatar anyway, but presumably I could be taught. Though Hans' concern about preserving annonymity may be an issue for some, so perhaps it shouldn't be compulsory even if you were to suggest it?

    Jukai: yes please, if you'll have me.

    Samu/Dana. Your reminder that Samu and Dana should be a little bit beyond what is comfortable is timely for me. I'm very good at comfortable Dana in particular. Not sure how this would work as part of the on line sangha but perhaps that's just my lack of imagination.

    Thank you so much for creating Treeleaf.

    Gassho

    Martin

  8. #8
    Jundo, thank you for asking. My two cents:

    Concerning the avatars: Requesting actual user photos on a board where people might discuss delicate matters, family struggles, personal defects, drug abuse or just occasional fears of entirely losing their marbles on the cushion is IMHO not an obvious improvement. If a trash can serve as a Buddha statue my "shabby cigarette machine" avatar should be just right.

    I love the Cyber-Jukai: Fabulous idea! The brief podcast teachings are lovely but many visitors would presumably appreciate a more in-depth training. I would do so very much.

    Zazen blog: Simply keep it! I watch the intro every day, sit by my own schedule though.

    Sitting guests? Yes, why not? Not sure about groups though, concerning the technical struggles with mere solo sitting. :wink:

    Regards,

    Mensch

  9. #9
    Hi Jundo & Co.!

    - Do you think the daily sittings on the blog are in a good format? Too much about me? Too much talking? Not enough sitting? Am I being "too cute" with the joking around every day? Should it be in a format that is more just a "Hello, and let's get right down to sitting for the full time"? Are the talks a help in their present format?
    Due to my 'technical handicap' (i.e. sloooow ISDN line) I havenít been able to keep up with all the talks, but I do read the text introductions and comments for every blog entry and definitely find them to be a great help. If thereís anything you think is really essential for us to hear I would request that you include it in the text, but I think youíre doing that anyway. Other than that I wouldn't change a thing, please just continue to be yourself.

    - Do you think I should request everyone on the forum to post as their avatar an actual photo of themselves (as opposed to Harry's hilarious beer guzzling, guitar playing cats ... but I assume that he does not look like that)? Or maybe we should set up a separate section where people can post photos? What we look like on the outside is not important at all ... or is it?
    I think a separate section (as Hans mentioned, perhaps a restricted area) for posting photos would be a great idea. Not that it really matters, but it may help create a more personal sense of the Sangha if we could attach a face with the memberís names. Of course, I think it should be left up to each individual member whether/what they want to post.

    - Starting in a few months, I am planning to have on-line training in anticipation for Jukai. This would involve study of each of the Precepts over multiple weeks (much as we do the book club chapters, we would discuss each of the precepts one by one) plus sewing a Rakusu. I guess that it will lead to an on-line Jukai ceremony (the first in the world, as far as I know). What do you think? I am also thinking of having one person who is studying for Jukai to be in charge of a particular Precept each week, and that person would have to deliver a video talk (by posting a video like I do on the blog) or, if no camera, to at least writing an essay, in which they discuss the Precept. Something like that.
    Count me in for Jukai! I think this is a wonderful opportunity and I would be grateful to have the chance to participate. I donít have a web-cam (and to be honest Iím a bit camera shy...) but writing essay(s) on the Precepts would be a pleasure.

    - I have not been too insistent on people doing "Samu" (work practice). In our case, that would involve community volunteer work (preferably, hands on actually helping people in need like the sick or elderly) or, for those already loaded with work and family obligations, an intentional commitment to non-do some of those activities as "Samu" practice. We could have a group in which people discuss Samu and support each other. (By the way, I do not accept any "Dana" financial contributions for Treeleaf, as we have sufficient resources for what we are doing. However, I do encourage people to make financial donations to charities that help folks, e.g., feeding the poor, finding a cure for a disease. Both donations and Samu work should be a bit beyond the point where it starts to hurt).
    Iím attempting to incorporate more things into my life which can be regarded as Samu (e.g. my wife and I will be participating in a charity walk to support AIDS patients in Sept.; we make donations to the S.O.S. childrenís village occasionally; support local charities when there are special events, etc.). Admittedly, my efforts are rather small in this regard, however.

    - Anything else?
    Just a big Thank You to you, Jundo, and everyone else in the Treeleaf Sangha for making it possible to practice the Dharma in this way. I donít believe in gods, fate, miracles, astrology, etc., so Iíll just call it plain old good luck that Treeleaf came to be at just the right point in my life, something like finding a needle in a haystack!

    Gassho
    Kenneth

  10. #10
    One low tech way to add fun and interactivity here would be to set up a irc channel on a irc server like DALnet. Then schedule time when several of us could meet there for interactive chat.

  11. #11

    Re: Member Comments

    Hey Jundo,

    I don't usually have too much to say, but I figured I'd put my two cents in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    - I have the capability on the blog to do "group sittings" from time to time, where up to 6 people could simultaneously put a camera on the computer and video themselves sitting Zazen. It would be just like I do it, but with the camera switching back and forth among the six people. It would serve no other purpose than just another way we can all join in. Would it be worth doing from time to time, e.g., once every couple of weeks? Any volunteers?
    I'd suggest a roundtable talk every once in a while rather than a group sitting. Might spark some lively discussions over here in the forums.
    Sorry no volunteering from me...I have no camera.

    - I could also do a "1 on 1" guest-sitter thing, where one of our members at a time will sit with me. The person can lead the talk or just introduce themselves, then sit with me. Any volunteers for that??
    Well that might be interesting and probably a little easier to follow rather than a six way.

    - Do you think the daily sittings on the blog are in a good format?
    Yep.

    Too much about me?
    nope

    Too much talking?
    Just enough. I usually catch it at work and can't actually sit with you. So I just listen and then sit some later.

    Not enough sitting?
    *shrug*

    Am I being "too cute" with the joking around every day? Should it be in a format that is more just a "Hello, and let's get right down to sitting for the full time"?
    Perhaps a better quality of joke. Just do what you do man.

    Are the talks a help in their present format?
    yep

    Do you think I should request everyone on the forum to post as their avatar an actual photo of themselves (as opposed to Harry's hilarious beer guzzling, guitar playing cats ... but I assume that he does not look like that)? Or maybe we should set up a separate section where people can post photos? What we look like on the outside is not important at all ... or is it?
    Seems to be some pretty strong opinions on this one. I don't have anything to hide.

    Starting in a few months, I am planning to have on-line training in anticipation for Jukai. This would involve study of each of the Precepts over multiple weeks (much as we do the book club chapters, we would discuss each of the precepts one by one) plus sewing a Rakusu. I guess that it will lead to an on-line Jukai ceremony (the first in the world, as far as I know). What do you think? I am also thinking of having one person who is studying for Jukai to be in charge of a particular Precept each week, and that person would have to deliver a video talk (by posting a video like I do on the blog) or, if no camera, to at least writing an essay, in which they discuss the Precept. Something like that.
    *shrug* I don't really have much of an opinion one way or the other here. Sounds interesting, but not sure if I'd participate.

    I have not been too insistent on people doing "Samu" (work practice). In our case, that would involve community volunteer work (preferably, hands on actually helping people in need like the sick or elderly) or, for those already loaded with work and family obligations, an intentional commitment to non-do some of those activities as "Samu" practice. We could have a group in which people discuss Samu and support each other. (By the way, I do not accept any "Dana" financial contributions for Treeleaf, as we have sufficient resources for what we are doing. However, I do encourage people to make financial donations to charities that help folks, e.g., feeding the poor, finding a cure for a disease. Both donations and Samu work should be a bit beyond the point where it starts to hurt).
    To be frank I think too much focus on this might turn into a game of one-upsmanship to impress the teacher. Personally I don't see any difference in hammering a nail for Habitat for Humanity, helping an old lady cross the street, or lending an ear to a good friend. There is no such thing as not helping enough...unless of course you do nothing.

    But I may be misunderstanding you.

    Anything else?
    Not that I can think of.

    Peace,
    Rodney

  12. #12

    Re: Member Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo
    - Do you think the daily sittings on the blog are in a good format? Too much about me? Too much talking? Not enough sitting? Am I being "too cute" with the joking around every day? Should it be in a format that is more just a "Hello, and let's get right down to sitting for the full time"? Are the talks a help in their present format?

    - Do you think I should request everyone on the forum to post as their avatar an actual photo of themselves (as opposed to Harry's hilarious beer guzzling, guitar playing cats ... but I assume that he does not look like that)? Or maybe we should set up a separate section where people can post photos? What we look like on the outside is not important at all ... or is it?
    Hi Jundo,

    Thank you for such a wonderful place and your great teaching. Your style and wisdom are beautiful. Please do not change them.

    In terms of using our pictures as our avatars, I prefer to not post our photos. In fact I would prefer to not post any personal information. In most situations I feel that I am identified with my so called "self", my body, name, job, relationships, age, gender, race, history, etc. If my "self" is an illusion, it seems to me that it would be beneficial to drop it as much as I can. To just conect with each other as beings, as different manifestations of the "One-That-Is".

    I don't know if that makes sense or not. It's just a thought.

    Thank you again for being here, and building this wonderful place.

    Namaste.

    Gassho,

    Urug

  13. #13
    I actually can't access your video blog. Don't know why. However, the group sittings is a great idea as well as the jukai ceremony. It would definitely add more participation and intimacy to the forum.

    I think posting a personal photo does add intimacy to the forum. There are times when formality can help practice ie. taking vows. It also depends on your commitment sometimes. Other avatars can be posted in a funny pictures gallery.

    In regards to joking around:
    You are the teacher on the forum Jundo, so it seems that you should teach in whatever way you see fit. You can't please everyone all of the time. :-)

    Like Hans said "Just do your thing Jundo, I'm sure we'll scream out loud once you confront us with anything that appears like real BS"

    If anyone needs help making an avatar I would be happy to help. :-)

  14. #14

    members comments

    It's gotten too late for me to post any comment that would be coherent tonight, but I do have thoughts to add to what has been said here. I'm hoping I will have time soon
    gassho
    Keishin

  15. #15
    FWIW, because this is a 'secondary' practice for me, I'm most appreciative of the concrete offerings of the timer and practical help in 'just sitting'.

    Because of my personality, I appreciate very much the open joy of our teacher and the gentle hospitality in the words I read here.

  16. #16
    Just to chime in one more time, I really like wills' idea of doing an interactive chat on IRC or on a chat service like Campfire (http://www.campfirenow.com/). That is my favorite type of interactive discussion. I would rather do that than video, but I would be willing to work with whatever. Thanks again. Great ideas, everyone.

  17. #17
    Hi Folks,

    I just want to thank everyone for all the ideas. Some really helpful ones.

    Gassho, Jundo

  18. #18
    Yes Jundo, be Jundo. . .I know your capable of being many things funny, serious, silly, and profound. . .just continue being spontaneous and being yourself. I like the chats, and your use of the blog to break down the Shobogenzo and other very weighty topics. But, don't feel obligated to do anything other than what just feels right.

    I'd love to post a picture, but cannot seem to find a way to shrink my photo down to 6kb, I'll keep playing with it.

    I'm game for any of the participation you mentioned, the time might be difficult for the group sits, but we'll play it by ear. Let me know when you want to do a sitting!

    I'm looking forward to taking the precepts under your guidance and along with my fellow treeleafers, I'd be more than willing to share in whatever way that I could.

    Do we have the capability of doing a chat room, or live group discussions through skype chat about various topics, just as a way to build more real time interaction with one another?

    Take care everybody,

    Greg

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Gregor
    Do we have the capability of doing a chat room, or live group discussions through skype chat about various topics, just as a way to build more real time interaction with one another?
    Great idea. I'd be up for real time discussions if we could work around the time zone thing.

    Namaste,

    Urug

  20. #20
    How are you guys posting such high quality avatar pictures?

    I cannot get my photo down to a small enough file size and still look decent.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Gregor
    How are you guys posting such high quality avatar pictures?

    I cannot get my photo down to a small enough file size and still look decent.
    Hi Gregor,

    I opened the image I wanted to use and edited it with Microsoft Office Picture Manager. I used the resize link and adjusted the size untill it was approximately 80 x 80 pixels.

    Namaste,

    Urug 8)

  22. #22
    Urug,

    Thanks I'll try that advice for resizing the picture.

    If your interested in doing real time discusion I'd encourage you and anyone else to get a skpe account and perhaps we can all set up a chat, who else is game?

    -Greg

  23. #23
    Hey Greg,

    Where and how do you set up an "skpe account"? I am not familiar with that.

    Namaste,

    Urug

  24. #24
    Skype is an online chat and video conference protocol, similar to icq or aol, but i think it would work better for being able to host multiple users for a text or audio chat.


    http://www.skype.com

    my id is gregor9210

    take care,

    Greg

  25. #25
    Hi Greg,

    I googled for a tool to create an avatar yesterday and found this one to be quite easy to use: http://www.shrinkpictures.com/create-avatar/. Just upload the picture, set the size to 80x80 and download the results.

    Gassho
    Kenneth

  26. #26
    Kenneth,

    Thanks the application worked great. I like how a lot of us are now posting our actual photo, I think it helps make us make the Sangha feel closer and more "real".

    Take care,

    Greg

  27. #27
    Curious, there is not a Jundo avatar. Where's Jundo?

  28. #28
    Senior Member kirkmc's Avatar
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    Regarding IRC/live chats, etc.:

    I think this would be really interesting. However, in my experience of such things, there is a lot of lag between what one person says (types) and another person's reply, because if they can't type fast, other messages come in. It can be pretty hard to maintain coherence with a lot of people. If we do this - which I think would be a good idea - we will have to be disciplined.

    Kirk

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by wills
    Curious, there is not a Jundo avatar. Where's Jundo?
    Well, I guess I don't have an avatar cause you guys already see enough of me 'round here. But, if you really need a close up view, I do have this recent photo (before a put on a couple of pounds).

    Gassho, Jundo


  30. #30

    chatroom

    Did anything get decided around having some sort of chatroom - whether web or IRC? I'm also a big fan of the idea... With enough different schedules in varied timezones, I'm sure there would be some overlaps.

    -Ryan

  31. #31
    Hi All,

    I want to thank everyone who provided ideas. I am going to get around to summarizing them, and putting many of them into action.

    Gassho. Jundo

  32. #32

    members comments

    Hellos everyone
    I'm late to joining the disucssion here.
    I've just had the comical-error of thrice (3 x) deleting the whole of my comments while I was thoughtlessly trying to edit them in preview mode
    so....I've learned my lesson and I won't edit this one--

    I like things here at Treeleaf as they are and as they are evolving.
    I have a pretty strong practice going already: I sit with a group twice a week--one mid-week with a group I assist in setting up, and on Saturdays for Brad's weekly sit and monthly zazenkai; I sit daily on my own morning and evening except for Saturdays and Fridays when I sit only once (and often on Friday I don't sit at all).

    Because of this I don't think it likely I would add on participating in a group sit on line. I infrequently view the daily sit-a-long, but I will periodically 'catch up' and watch several of the talks at once. As far as being a 'guest sitter' on a sit-a-long, my 'druthers' are no, but I also know that 365 talks a year is a huge commitment--no place I've sat with has ever had anyone do this--if help is needed, I am willing to help.

    Rather than have our pictures appear over and over with each of our comments, I'd rather have a 'yearbook' kind of a place where I can periodically update my photo as I add on more wrinkles, more folds in the neck, and more chins! I'm more interested in following the 'what' being said than the 'who' saying it.

    I only recently began spending time on blogs and contributing to comments. I have Brad to thank for that. His blog: Hardcorezen.blogspot.com led me to Gudo Nishijima Roshi's Dogen Sanga Blog and Treeleaf is linked there.
    I'm still learning about what this new activity is for me. It certainly takes a considerable amount of time. I'm healing from an injury at this time and have more time available than I normally would...
    When time constraints change, my participation may also change.
    Precepts study/discussion is something I would commit to--I'd rather it be like the book club where I could come and participate when I was able to. I think I would find that more workable than a real-time/on-line discussion/chat kind of thing.

    Jundo, I do think you are pioneering here, and I'm glad to be part of it.

    gassho,
    Keishin

  33. #33

    Re: members comments

    Quote Originally Posted by Keishin
    I also know that 365 talks a year is a huge commitment--no place I've sat with has ever had anyone do this--
    Hi Keishin,

    But, if you think about it, my little daily talks total maybe 40 minutes a week, about the length of one good Zen talk, maybe two smaller one. And that is typical for most Zen groups. So, please don't credit me with more.

    Anyway, the great risk in Zen talking is saying too much ... and not knowing the value of silence.

    Gassho, Jundo

  34. #34
    Hi Harry,

    Once we move through Fukanzazengi on the Blog (I think I will pick up the pace a bit on that), we will start on some sections of Shobogenzo ... probably Genjo Koan first, then lots more. I will move a bit faster there too, and I can present the Dogen worldview in that way. We can tie that in with the discussion group you mention. Maybe it would be a hybrid of the way we do the book club (assigning section by section), plus I can talk about key sections or line-by-line on the Blog.

    The whole focus around here is centered on Dogen and Shobogenzoi. However, we are not limited to Dogen and Shobogenzo. The wonderful thing about Shobogenzo is that it includes mention of a million and one other works of Buddhist philosophy, Sutras, classic Koans, etc ... so we can talk about all that too.

    Let's see.

    Gassho, Jundo

    PS- Yes, I could see my travels sometime in the future to lead a Sesshin here or there. One thing is that we will have an online, 24hr, multi-day retreat sometime in the coming months ... online of course.

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    By Lynn in forum TREELEAF COMMUNITY: Topics about Zazen, Zen, Buddhism & MORE ZAZEN!
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 11-01-2007, 10:21 PM

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