Hi Jundo,
Thanks for this. What's your opinion about the monks who let themselves be killed as they were not supposed to show hostility?
Do you think that there was a misunderstanding of the "Non enmity stills enmity" phrase from Sakyamuni?
Bodhidharma taught farmers to defend themselves and I'd say that you can defend yourself without hating your enmity. A bit like Neo in the matrix when he becomes the chosen one.
Gassho,
Geerish.
ST.LAH
Hi Geerish,
We sit with the Koan of self-defense when we reflect on the Precept regarding avoiding the Taking of Life in our Jukai (Undertaking the Precepts) preparations, as we will again from this coming September.
We are non-self, and there is nobody ultimately to kill or be killed, no violence possible in the absolute Wholeness of Buddha. This is so. Yet, at the same time, we live in a world in which I would likely defend my family and my own person if attacked by a robber or the like. All would suffer, both the doers of violence and the recipients of violence. Such is our life in Samsara.
My Teacher Nishijima and others believed that police actions such as shooting a kidnapper to protect a child, or even some military actions to protect society, are justified in some circumstances. However, various Buddhist Teachers differ on this, especially in the latter case of war, and it varies very much case-by-case on the situation requiring military action, should be kept to a minimum, and all other possibilities ... such as building schools and hospitals in place of bombs ... should be tried without first resorting to the sword. It is not an easy question. The Buddha and Zen Masters, in old stories, sometimes seemed to act in ways in which they would not resort to violence even if threatened, but in other cases ... such as regarding the Kung-Fu monks of Shao-lin ... did seem to recognize some situations that require response in defense. It should be used sparingly, and only as a last resort. Nonetheless, without anger, one must sometimes act with violence in defense to protect people or civilization.
That all being said, yes, one should avoid anger even if needing to engage in some act of defense. For example, Dhamapada 223, in one translation ...
One might learn to act as necessary, but without anger in one's heart. One also sees the enemy or criminal, not as a "bad person", but as someone who themself is a victim of the excess desires and resentments, anger and violence, divided thinking within their own heart. All are victims of violence.Verse 223. Four Forms Of Victories
Anger conquer by amity,
evil conquer with good,
by giving conquer miserly,
with truth the speaker of falsity.
If you would like to read more detail on this topic, this old thread tried to deal very straightly with the dilemma of Buddhist values and self-defense including military action. The Tricycle article and accompanying comments which I link to in my first post there, are particularly interesting.
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...s-a-good-thing
Gassho, Jundo
SatTodayLAH
Last edited by Jundo; 08-08-2017 at 02:40 PM.
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
My old karate teacher used to say that the best self-defence is to run. That stayed with me and one time, when I was actually attacked, I used it and am very grateful for the advice. I escaped unharmed. It's an approach I also sometimes find useful in no-win non-physical confrontation - getting out of the way so the 'punch' lands on empty air. However, if you can't get away or you need to protect someone, then yes I think it must be possible to defend yourselves and others without anger. I'm not sure I'm there yet though.
Gassho
Lucy
Sat today/LAH
Greetings,
Since I'm a big batsy fan, it reminds me of his no killing code as he says that if he does, there's no coming back. There is a lot in the clip below as he puts aside emotions and there's a lot of control to do what is right and he always believed in rehabilitation. He always hoped that they could be brought back to sanity. I apologise if the clip is too rough.
Gassho,
Geerish.
ST.LAH.
Hello Geerish,
I am an Aikidoka and have been practcing for many years. I also studied Karate and Hap Ki Do when I was younger. The one major aspect of Aikido that I admire so much is that it does train the body, but more so the mind. It teaches us to be relaxed and fluid under stress, to not react from emotion, but rather from the situationat hand.
Yes martial arts teach us to defend outselves, but being aware of our surroundings helps us remove ourselves from having to defend in the first place. It also teaches us to manage ourselves if we do have to defend ... to know when enough is enough.
We need to realize that our attacker is stuck in delusion and allow the conditions of their lives to dictate their actions. As Jundo always says, "if the people who do bad things knew peace, they probably would not do such acts". So when defending defend with a kind and comoassionate heart and not a heart of anger or judgement.
Gassho
Shingen
SatToday/LAH
Here is a powerful scene about what we are discussing right now.
Gassho,
Geerish.
ST.LAH.
Hi Geerish,
Some very good thoughts above. I have been practicing martial arts (kickboxing) for a couple years now, still very much a beginner. Something translates off the mat and into the streets, the board room and in all of life that has nothing to do with self defense...and everything to do with it. I feel the same when I sit.
That is how I feel anyway, in my limited view.
Gassho, Kyotai
ST, LAH
This is by far the best response when possible, both the Buddha and my grandmother would agree. Turn the other cheek, bend like bamboo, smile and walk away.Originally Posted by Lucy
I must admit, as a boy of about twelve ... 'Kung Fu' (the original TV series) was probably my first exposure to the Zen tradition. And ya know, I do not remember it as a bad lesson at all. Be like the bamboo ... bend as one needs to bend with life, refuse to fight in the face of all manner of scorn and thrown stones (but, if to protect widows and orphans ... be willing to clear the room).
May we build a world in which violence is truly our last resort.
Sometimes the people we think of as "enemies" need to be handled as such (and I include countries such as North Korea with its nuclear threat to sustain the power of one family, and groups like ISIS here). But in other cases, people have legitimate grievances that need to be addressed, and we must not forget that there is truly room in this world for all of us to share and live in peace, agreeing to honor our differences. I am still hoping for the day, for example, where Jews and Muslims in the Middle East will just forget 3000 years of "they did this, and they did that", drop the past and just get together to live in peace with space and resources for all. Alas, it may yet be awhile until we see such times.
Gassho, Jundo
SatTodayLAH
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Greetings,
Thank you everyone. I think spirituality is universal and yoga, meditation, martial arts and zazen are all about bringing harmony to the surroundings though in Zazen, the approach is different. This discussion reminds me of Devadatta who was Buddha's cousin. He tried to kill Sakyamuni many times and failed. Sakyamuni was always compassionate and never felt hatred towards him. In India, it's believed that Buddha helped Devadatta when he injured himself while trying to kill Buddha with a rock but there are different versions around and I'm not sure about it.
https://www.burmese-art.com/blog/devadatta
All we can do is do our best to make a difference and inspire people to be themselves. All these big problems of division and hatred are created and so fake. These problems are delusions and yet they are so real in this Physical world.
Gassho,
Geerish.
ST.LAH.
Lovely clip.
A question occurred to me about all this. The fight-flight response is in the most primitive part of the brain and responsible for the anger/fear reaction to threat. Obviously in many circumstances it is not useful and can get in the way. But in some circumstances is it appropriate that it is triggered as it helps us to survive by kicking up the adrenaline and sharpening the senses so we can run or defend ourselves more effectively? If that happens does it still have a karmic effect? Or should we bring that part of the brain under control? (I've found it is actually triggered a lot less over time since I started Zazen.) Or is it more about not feeding it or getting stuck in that mode? Don't know if this makes sense?!
Thanks.
Gassho
Lucy
ST
I'd say that if you have to run, you'll run but feel no panic. The more I sit, the more I realise that I don't have extreme reactions to some situations. For example, if someone is losing his/her temper, you'd just smile back and talk to the person when he/she is calm. If my son gets hurt by doing something silly, I'd try to console him and make him calm down rather than get angry. I think that we become more aware and act accordingly decreasing suffering of oneself and others.
A question occurred to me about all this. The fight-flight response is in the most primitive part of the brain and responsible for the anger/fear reaction to threat. Obviously in many circumstances it is not useful and can get in the way. But in some circumstances is it appropriate that it is triggered as it helps us to survive by kicking up the adrenaline and sharpening the senses so we can run or defend ourselves more effectively? If that happens does it still have a karmic effect? Or should we bring that part of the brain under control? (I've found it is actually triggered a lot less over time since I started Zazen.) Or is it more about not feeding it or getting stuck in that mode? Don't know if this makes sense?!
Thanks.
Gassho
Lucy
ST
Gassho,
G.
But sometimes you do feel panic. When I had to run that time, I am glad that the flight response kicked in because I was running before I even consciously thought about it...it was like the animal part of me - the survival part - took over and it was quicker and more efficient. I really relate to 'the love of life' description in that video clip as it felt like that was what it was. It was protective and necessary. Maybe that's just extreme situations. When my anger response is triggered by certain people I am careful to either get out of the way and not act from it (take myself out of the situation, calm down and communicte from a more rational place later), or if it's someone close to me like my husband who I already have a good line of communication established with I will find a way of expressing it that does no harm and where I take responsibility for my feelings. We are both very careful to express anger without attacking or hurting each other - I do believe that's possible and can lead to more trust and intimacy.
It sounds like your responses to those situations were skilful and helpful.
I guess we all have to work with where we are.
Gassho
Lucy
ST
Hi Lucy,
A question occurred to me about all this. The fight-flight response is in the most primitive part of the brain and responsible for the anger/fear reaction to threat. Obviously in many circumstances it is not useful and can get in the way. But in some circumstances is it appropriate that it is triggered as it helps us to survive by kicking up the adrenaline and sharpening the senses so we can run or defend ourselves more effectively? If that happens does it still have a karmic effect? Or should we bring that part of the brain under control? (I've found it is actually triggered a lot less over time since I started Zazen.) Or is it more about not feeding it or getting stuck in that mode? Don't know if this makes sense?!
Thanks.
Gassho
Lucy
ST
I am not a guy who is particularly interested in the possible effects of Karma in some future life after death, if any, so will merely comment on this life.
I beleive that it is perfectly natural and hard wired into us to feel panic sometimes in the most primitive parts of the brain. If a tiger is chasing me, I will likely (pardon) piss myself and run. No problem. When pissing, just piss.
Some warriors, and others who do dangerous work such as acrobats and window washers, can train themselves to overcome some of that as helpful to their work. So, through Zazen and other means we can reduce it. This is particularly helpful, I believe, for victims of PTSD and the like who have overly active fight-flight responces.
However, I think it would be foolhardy and unecessary to be calm in all situations. If so, I might walk off cliffs, drive recklessly, pet angry tigers like the person who cannot feel pain so keeps their hand on a hot stove. Thus, sometimes being appropriately afraid, even terrified, is not a problem. Regretting or resisting an appropriate emotion is. So I say,, when fleeing in terror a hungry tiger because the brain feels terror, just flee in terror.
Gassho, Jundo
STLah
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Thanks Jundo. That makes sense.
Gassho
Lucy
ST
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