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Thread: How to talk about people doing awful things while not violating the precepts?

  1. #1
    Member Hoseki's Avatar
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    How to talk about people doing awful things while not violating the precepts?

    Hi folks,

    Recently on a Facebook discussion I found myself wanting to challenge something someone said about some people who were doing what I feel are pretty terrible things. I started writing a response but I was concerned that I was encouraging the growth of my own anger and that perhaps describing these people as despicable wouldn't be a good thing for me to do. So I didn't write anything. I didn't go into specifics because the discussion was political in nature and it can be divisive and the specifics don't really matter right now.

    I'm hoping other people have been in this position as well and perhaps could offer me a little guidance.



    Gassho

    Sattoday/LAH

    Hoseki

  2. #2

    How to talk about people doing awful things while not violating the precepts?

    "So what will you do with a person who is convinced that the earth is flat? There is no way of reasoning with him. If it is for some reason important that he discover that the earth is round, you have got to play a game or trick on him. You tell him, “Great. The earth is flat. Let’s go and look over the edge; wouldn’t that be fun? Of course, if we are going to look over the edge of the earth, we must be very careful that we do not go around in circles or we will never get to the edge. So we must go along consistently westward, along a certain line of latitude. Then we will come to the edge of the earth.” In other words, in order to convince a flat-earther that the world is round, you have to make him act consistently on his own proposition by making him go consistently westward in search of the edge of the world. When at last, by going consistently westward, he comes back to the place where he started, he will have been convinced that the earth is at least cylindrical … What you must do is make him persist in his folly. That is the whole method of Zen: to make people become consistent, perfect egotists, and so explode the illusion of the separate ego." —Alan Watts; Buddhism the Religion of No-Religion

    "If the fool would persist in his folly he would become wise." —William Blake; The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  3. #3
    Thank you for this question. I'm politically active, and have no shortage of potential challenges with those on FB. I can honestly say there has never been a time that I decided to NOT post a confrontational response and regretted it. I usually forget about the whole thing in a matter of minutes. Yet many times when I do respond with an inflammatory comment, I worry about it. It crosses my mind several times throughout the day, I check FB to see if there's been a response. It seems Buddha was concerned with decreasing suffering, so for me, refraining from these conversations, while not feeding my need for self-righteousness, decreases the amount of worry I experience.

    That's an excellent Alan Watts quote, Jishin.

    Good luck,
    Dan
    SATLAH

  4. #4
    Kyotai
    Guest
    There are times to speak up, times to stay silent. That line is different for everyone. But I would say, if the person is not right in front of me, if it is just an online opinion, it may not be worth engaging.

    Gassho, Kyotai
    ST

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  5. #5
    Mp
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyotai View Post
    There are times to speak up, times to stay silent. That line is different for everyone. But I would say, if the person is not right in front of me, if it is just an online opinion, it may not be worth engaging.

    Gassho, Kyotai
    ST

    Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk
    I agree here ... Sometimes people use social media for a selfish soap box only and not for any formal or meanful discussion. But again it is up to the person.

    Sometimes something maybe brought online that moves you or upsets you and you want to engage and understand more. Maybe take that experience to someone you can connect to face to face, so that you may learn and groe in a more meaningful way then just bantering back and forth infront of a screen. But again, this is different for each and everyone of us. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    SatToday/LAH

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoseki View Post
    Hi folks,

    Recently on a Facebook discussion I found myself wanting to challenge something someone said about some people who were doing what I feel are pretty terrible things. I started writing a response but I was concerned that I was encouraging the growth of my own anger and that perhaps describing these people as despicable wouldn't be a good thing for me to do. So I didn't write anything. I didn't go into specifics because the discussion was political in nature and it can be divisive and the specifics don't really matter right now.

    I'm hoping other people have been in this position as well and perhaps could offer me a little guidance.



    Gassho

    Sattoday/LAH

    Hoseki
    Hi Hoseki,

    For me the litmus test is "will my saying something actually have a chance of changing the person's behavior or alleviate suffering?" and in my experience the "conversion rate" on the internet is abysmally low. Most people aren't looking for a discussion as much as a bully pulpit.
    The chance that you will end up stoking the fires of your own suffering are pretty high though.
    So if you're looking to make yourself miserable just because you wanted to say something "on principle" then feel free.
    But frankly I'd rather just remain silent and cultivate gratitude for the lesson they're offering me.
    Sometimes the best you can hope for is that their despicable behavior will serve as a cautionary tale.

    The only times I've ever had any luck has been with a polite appeal to charity or kindness and even those are often met with suspicion.
    There's a saying: "don't feed the trolls" and it's good advice as many folks on social media are just slavering for an opportunity to exchange blows with a willing interlocutor. I try not to take the bait.

    The good news is that people rarely act in real life like their internet personalities so there's that.

    Anyway, sorry for what you're obviously dealing with and I hope you just treat their misbehavior the way you treat thoughts in zazen viz. acknowledge it and don't get involved.

    Gassho,
    Hoko
    #SatToday
    LAH
    法 Dharma
    口 Mouth

  7. #7
    There are times to speak up and times to remain silent, and on Facebook it is always time to remain silent. No one has ever thoughtfully considered a political Facebook post and changed their opinion. It's just fools yelling at each other. I say this as one of those fools. I got caught up in the last US election like so many of us did, and after it was over I came to realize that it was all wasted energy. I don't think one thing I said had any positive impact at all. Circumstances have dragged me back into Facebook again, but I think we'd all be better off if we just left it alone.

    Gassho, Zenmei. St

  8. #8
    My rule of thumb is that one might offer constructive and needed criticism, but should avoid anger. We also remember that peoples' action may be despicable (driven by greed anger and divisive thinking), but not the people themselves. Be civil and polite even in offering a strong opinion, something easily forgotten in this day and age of online anger and name calling.

    Sometimes with my teenage, I seem angry but try to avoid being actually angry. It is not always easy.

    Gassho,

    J

    SatTodayLAH
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenmei View Post
    There are times to speak up and times to remain silent, and on Facebook it is always time to remain silent. No one has ever thoughtfully considered a political Facebook post and changed their opinion. It's just fools yelling at each other. I say this as one of those fools. I got caught up in the last US election like so many of us did, and after it was over I came to realize that it was all wasted energy. I don't think one thing I said had any positive impact at all. Circumstances have dragged me back into Facebook again, but I think we'd all be better off if we just left it alone.

    Gassho, Zenmei. St
    What i love of Fb is, you can write a very heavy comment and than not send it.. In writing what you want you got rid of it and by not sending it nobody is got hurt.


    Coos

    hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

    Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

  10. #10
    I can't be bothered arguing with someone either online or in person. A reasonable discussion with friends is one thing as there is a sense of mutual appreciation for different points of view amongst friends. I'd rather let the way I lead my life and conduct myself on a day-to-day basis speak for my beliefs and opinions.

    FWIW... I don't subscribe to any social media other than LinkedIn and that is for purely professional connections.

    Gassho
    Warren
    Sat today

  11. #11
    Eishuu
    Guest
    I use social media and I share political things I feel strongly about often but in the spirit of respecting other people's point's of view and beliefs.

    I don't tend to write comments that could start arguments on other people's posts as I have found people can be rather unguarded when it comes to anger and hurtful comments on social media. I used to state my opinion but would often end up angry and upset by the interchanges. I often feel the urge to respond but usually stop myself now. I sometimes do what aprapti mentions - type something and but not post it. It's quite therapeutic!

    I might write something positive coming from a place of hope and support for someone or something. That can result in a nice sense of shared feelings and values with people, but can also often attrack arguments. If that happens I just ignore it. I avoid arguments with strangers. It feels like a waste of energy. And if it is coming from a place of anger writing it down usually makes me more angry. I donate to causes, sign petitions, and have discussions with friends instead.

    Gassho
    Lucy
    sat today/LAH

  12. #12

    How to talk about people doing awful things while not violating the precepts?

    Arguing is just a form of communication. Judging the form is tricky. If it is benign, then argue argue and argue some more. Then cheek kisses x 3 on the way out the door as certain romantic or other cultures do. Or law students argue for the sake of arguing to hone in their skills. Or professionals argue to advance knowledge and then go for beer after work. Face Book people may be doing the same. I know I do it. Jundo argues all the time but very tactfully as a teaching tool. You say form and he says emptiness. You say emptiness and he says form. Someone says form and someone else says emptiness he says the middle way. It's just talk. Intent is what is important. Chop wood and carry water (not carry worry). That's all.

    My 2 cents.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
    Last edited by Jishin; 07-22-2017 at 04:55 PM.

  13. #13
    The truth will eventually come out. As Buddha said, you can show people the way but it's up to them to walk it. I'll leave you with this.

    A beautiful girl in the village was pregnant. Her angry parents demanded to know who was the father. At first resistant to confess, the anxious and embarrassed girl finally pointed to Hakuin, the Zen master whom everyone previously revered for living such a pure life. When the outraged parents confronted Hakuin with their daughter's accusation, he simply replied "Is that so?"

    When the child was born, the parents brought it to the Hakuin, who now was viewed as a pariah by the whole village. They demanded that he take care of the child since it was his responsibility. "Is that so?" Hakuin said calmly as he accepted the child.

    For many months he took very good care of the child until the daughter could no longer withstand the lie she had told. She confessed that the real father was a young man in the village whom she had tried to protect. The parents immediately went to Hakuin to see if he would return the baby. With profuse apologies they explained what had happened. "Is that so?" Hakuin said as he handed them the child.

  14. #14

    How to talk about people doing awful things while not violating the precepts?

    The truth is that truth is already here. It's always truth. There are true truths and half truths. There are true lies and true half lies. It's 100% true all the time. No escaping it. No where to look for truth except now. Now is the time where truths lies and there is not one thing missing from now. Thus truth contains it all. That's all.

    My 2 cents.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
    Last edited by Jishin; 07-22-2017 at 05:42 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    ... Jundo argues all the time but very tactfully as a teaching tool. You say form and he says emptiness. You say emptiness and he says form. Someone says form and someone else says emptiness he says the middle way. ...
    Oh, you have me figured out!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guish View Post

    A beautiful girl in the village was pregnant. Her angry parents demanded to know who was the father. At first resistant to confess, the anxious and embarrassed girl finally pointed to Hakuin, the Zen master whom everyone previously revered for living such a pure life. When the outraged parents confronted Hakuin with their daughter's accusation, he simply replied "Is that so?"

    When the child was born, the parents brought it to the Hakuin, who now was viewed as a pariah by the whole village. They demanded that he take care of the child since it was his responsibility. "Is that so?" Hakuin said calmly as he accepted the child.

    For many months he took very good care of the child until the daughter could no longer withstand the lie she had told. She confessed that the real father was a young man in the village whom she had tried to protect. The parents immediately went to Hakuin to see if he would return the baby. With profuse apologies they explained what had happened. "Is that so?" Hakuin said as he handed them the child.
    Oh, that is from all evidence, an apocryphal, made-up story. If it were me, I would have said "heck no" and demanded a blood test! (I am all in favor of adoption though, and have two adopted kids in my house. But, nothing wrong with speaking up when there is something to say). It is best not to be overly concerned with one's reputation, but also no reason to let a lie or incorrect claim go uncovered. The story seems to have originated with a legend about the Buddha, but in that story, they used the magical version of a blood test ...

    Dhammapada Verse 176

    The Buddha was then expounding the Dhamma to a congregation of bhikkhus and laymen. Seeing him teaching on the platform, she [Cincamanavika] accused the Buddha thus: "O you big Samana! You only preach to others. I am now pregnant by you, yet you do nothing for my confinement. You only know how to enjoy your self!" The Buddha stopped preaching for a while and said to her, "Sister, only you and I know whether you are speaking the truth or not," and Cincamanavika replied, "Yes, you are right, how can others know what only you and I know?"

    At that instant, Sakka, king of the devas, became aware of the trouble being brewed at the Jetavana monastery, so he sent four of his devas in the form of young rats. The four rats got under the clothes of Cincamanavika and bit off the strings that fastened the wooden plank round her stomach. As the strings broke, the wooden plank dropped, cutting off the front part of her feet. Thus, the deception of Cincamanavika was uncovered, and many from the crowd cried out in anger, "Oh you wicked woman! A liar and a cheat! How dare you accuse our noble Teacher!" Some of them spat on her and drove her out. She ran as fast as she could, and when she had gone some distance the earth cracked and fissured and she was swallowed up.

    The next day, while the bhikkhus were talking about Cincamanavika, the Buddha came to them and said. "Bhikkhu;, one who is not afraid to tell lies, and who does not care what happens in the future existence, will not hesitate to do any evil."

    Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

    Verse 176: For one who transgresses the Truth, and is given to lying, and who is unconcerned with the life hereafter, there is no evil that he dare not do.

    http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp....php?verse=176


    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-23-2017 at 12:58 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  16. #16
    Thanks for this Jundo. What I got from the story was that the actions done with the purest intent were more important than the arguments with words. However, I see what you are saying. What has happened to me personally is that with pratice, I am not bothered if people take unnecessary credit of something they haven't done.

  17. #17
    Member Hoseki's Avatar
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    Thanks guys,

    I think my take away here is to consider the following points:
    1. Will it do any good?
    2. Will it just make me more angry?
    3. If I should leave the person out and focus on the action or attitude. Which is borne of karma.
    4. If someone accuses me of fathering a child I best ask for a paternity test. If I leave it up to the gods she might lose the front of her feet and get swallowed up by the earth. Seems like a bodhisattva would probably want to prevent that.

    Gassho

    Sattoday

    Hoseki


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  18. #18
    Member Hoseki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guish View Post
    Thanks for this Jundo. What I got from the story was that the actions done with the purest intent were more important than the arguments with words. However, I see what you are saying. What has happened to me personally is that with pratice, I am not bothered if people take unnecessary credit of something they haven't done.
    Hi,

    I was thinking about that story and I think in a way it's a dramatization of the bodhisattva path. Hakuin is just doing his thing but he is brought into the sphere of someone else's self created problem ( I recognize it takes two to tango.)

    The child is the fruit of girls and fishermens karmic action. Like all karmic fruit it can cause further dukka or it can be treated with compassion and wisdom and lead to insight or least less dukka. Hakuin, instead of denying the child or kicking up a fuss looks after the child with compassion and equanimity. Hakuin's behaviour demonstrates how to handle our problems. We don't try to push them away we try to work with them compassionately. Each problem is an opportunity if we have the clarity to see it.

    Or something like that.

    Gassho

    Sattoday

    Hoseki



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  19. #19
    I will say that we all ... me too ... worry about, argue, debate, try to refute much too much. The universe of internet blog, facebook and forum (including this one sometimes) comment sections is a testament to that!

    One clear Zen message is that, unless it is something truly important, let much of it go. Hard to say what is worth talking about, and what not, but it would be a more peaceful world if we did have the attitude of just smiling and keeping silent more.

    There are issues about society and politics that are worth talking about (e.g., "What is good for national health care policy?" "When do we use the military?" "How do we improve fight poverty?") but not most of what passes for political discourse and "debate" these days (people shouting invective and "talking points" at each other).

    One also can't please everyone (I learned this in establishing Treeleaf, where many folks like what we are doing here, and others think that an online Sangha is an scam or abomination that will be the end of Buddhism! ) Everyone has opinions, one has to simply learn from the constructive ones, be sincere to one's own effort, try to do something good and let the rest of the grumblers just grumble.

    I sometimes used to go on the internet like Don Quixote, trying to put things right, set opinions straight, leaving no story or lie unchallenged. I still do in some cases if I feel really important (right now I am defending on a Zen facebook group people who practice Soto Zen as Christians from others who say that it is wrong for them to do so), but not so much.

    Hakuin, "Mr. Is That So", had opinions. BOY did he have opinions, and could engage in some name calling when he wanted too, calling those he thought deserved it as "idiots, fools, morons" and the like when he got going ... one disagreed with him at their own risk (same with Dogen and many others).

    https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...ective&f=false

    Anyway, that is my opinion on opinions: Tread lightly, speaking mostly only when really important, don't get angry, try to speak civilly when one has to speak, let much of it go ... but don't overlook real injustice.

    (And if you disagree with what I wrote, let's not argue about it! )

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-24-2017 at 02:04 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  20. #20
    Hi Hoseki,

    I guess I'm wrong about this but I never discuss anything in social media, unless the conversation is with friends or relatives. It's simple, really.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Sat/LAH
    Last edited by Kyonin; 07-25-2017 at 03:33 PM. Reason: Corrected terrible English with horrible English :)
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyonin View Post
    Hi Hoseki,

    I guess I'm wrong about this but I never discuss anything in social media, unless the conversation is with friends or relatives. It's simply, really.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Sat/LAH

    It can be hard to know where to draw the line. Once, I told a Cousin to be careful about what he is reading because the writer likes sensationalism and I provided a few links to justify this. Eventually, the young lad got angry saying that it's just a book and other relatives said that everyone is entitled to an opinion.

    The point is people will see what they want to see. It takes practice to have the obsever's approach. Traditionally, meditation makes one have that observer approach and the observer becomes the observed too. That's something else. I don't try to change people now. If they are ready and talk, I suggest things.

    Gassho,
    ST. LAH.

  22. #22
    Member Hoseki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyonin View Post
    Hi Hoseki,

    I guess I'm wrong about this but I never discuss anything in social media, unless the conversation is with friends or relatives. It's simple, really.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Sat/LAH
    Hi Kyonin,

    For what it's worth I don't think your wrong. If anything you might be on to something .

    I think they would be hard habits to let go. I might try to go on a social media diet during ango.

    Gassho,

    Hoseki
    Sattoday


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  23. #23
    Speaking as one of those fools, I couldn't agree more with Zenmei. Facebook's not the forum for in-depth discussion. It's an incubation unit for misunderstandings, bad feelings, even broken friendships.
    For me a bigger question, and a very hard one, is dealing with the 'not speaking of the faults of others' and right speech precept when others don't. The precepts are individual teachers, perhaps, or flashlights and maps. Being mindful of right speech shows you how much of human interraction is about flippant or harmful or self-serving talk. In a competitive or work situation, how do you keep the precepts when others are playing bareknuckle?
    Gassho, Sat.
    Last edited by Tom; 08-08-2017 at 04:22 AM.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom View Post
    For me a bigger question, and a very hard one, is dealing with the 'not speaking of the faults of others' and right speech precept when others don't.
    Hi Tom,

    I can really relate to this comment. Many of my friends are also work colleagues and they delight in criticising various managers and senior managers behind their back. When I don't join in (or worse still, offer a more balanced view) there's a sense that I'm no longer welcome... spoiling everyone's fun.

    It's one of those precepts where, while most people would agree with the concept in principle, many of the same people also feel it's "human" to have a little gossip sometimes. I'd like to think my decision to sit quietly might make them reflect on their unkind words, even if it can make me unpopular in that moment.

    Gassho,
    Enjaku
    Sat LAH
    援若

  25. #25
    Member Hoseki's Avatar
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    Hi guys,

    These comments really resonate with me as well. I often try to ask people about their position but the barbs and jabs along the way can be overwhelming. Enjaku, I don't say much when people are being harsh in their gossip. Sometimes I try to offer counter points but most of the time I don't say anything (which in itself can be problematic for those around me.)

    Gassho

    Sattoday
    Hoseki

  26. #26
    Thanks Enjaku. It's actually driving me quite mad. I've worked (and work) in different gossip-driven industries. Plus everyday chit-chat, anthropologists say, is part of what makes us human. There's even a Zen YouTube clip (I think Rochester Zen Center), about gossip being an ancient human accountability mechanism. Who's hoarding, who's not? Who's claiming status they don't deserve or haven't earned? Who's not. And yet we (buddhists) aren't supposed to do it. Then again, think about the internal dialogue it creates about Buddhism and what your true values are and what you want them to be? Just driving me batty.
    Tom
    Gassho, LAT.

  27. #27
    Eishuu
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom View Post
    Thanks Enjaku. It's actually driving me quite mad. I've worked (and work) in different gossip-driven industries. Plus everyday chit-chat, anthropologists say, is part of what makes us human. There's even a Zen YouTube clip (I think Rochester Zen Center), about gossip being an ancient human accountability mechanism. Who's hoarding, who's not? Who's claiming status they don't deserve or haven't earned? Who's not. And yet we (buddhists) aren't supposed to do it. Then again, think about the internal dialogue it creates about Buddhism and what your true values are and what you want them to be? Just driving me batty.
    Tom
    Gassho, LAT.
    Hi Tom, I hope you don't mind me weighing in on this but I studied anthropology and archaeology at Uni and I don't remember anything about gossip being part of what makes us human. It sounds quite possibly like speculation - there's no archaeological evidence to support this about ancient humans as far as I know. Communication is definitely thought to be a vital part of what makes us human, with the development of the vocal chords and a larger brain allowing for complex language - all of that is what allows for social interaction and the development of community and culture. It's possible that gossip may have been important then but who knows? I wouldn't go as far as to say it's what makes us human though - that's just my opinion. Personally I do think there's a strong impulse to gossip that's probably driven by the ego. I often experience a strong urge to gossip and a resistance to not doing it. I notice when I do feel like gossiping it does feel a bit ego driven - like I want to make myself feel better. When I feel content I am much less likely to do it.

    It must be really hard working in gossip driven industries.

    Gassho
    Lucy
    ST/LAH

  28. #28
    Member FaithMoon's Avatar
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    I'm in favor of sharing our unique points of view and experiences; when received in an open atmosphere this is a wonderful expression of our diversity (the dharmas are boundless). I'm not in favor of indulging and broadcasting the productions of Monkey Mind, which is something comment sections on the internet is encouraging to a dangerous degree. One of the fruits of practice is discernment.

    Faithmoon
    ST

  29. #29
    For me, the hardest thing about dealing with people who say or do awful things is remembering that *there is no way I am going to change what they do or say*. It frustrates me to no end sometimes, but I have to keep taking myself back to the realization that I don't agree with their actions or words, but that's my opinion. I can commiserate with others as to the "wrongness" of the words/actions (i.e. "Isn't what 'x' is doing awful? Can you believe it?") but....again....doesn't change a thing. I can argue with that person, cajole them, fight them.....but still, it won't change them. In fact, there's always the possibility that *I'm* the one that's wrong (at least from their point of view). They won't get me to change either.

    So where does that take me? I get angry, frustrated, confused, whatever....I note it, express it to myself (or my wife) so that I don't explode from keeping it bottled up.....and then I move on. I *try* (try being the operative word!) to find a sort of balance: if I know that someone's behavior is frustrating, if they destroy, I will seek to build up....that sort of thing. I have to remind myself that I just can't push on a rope.

    My goal, something I'm always working on, is to recognize what frustrates me about what people say and do....and do what I can to promote what I perceive as right and good without being obnoxious. And not to do awful things to try and achieve good things (like arguing with people, etc).

    My 2 cents, anyway.

    Gassho--

    --JimH (SatToday!)

  30. #30
    Hi Lucy, late reply. In terms of 'what makes us human', telling stories certainly does. And what else to talk about but other humans? I live in a big, Southeast Asian country and have often traveled and hung out in villages. The dominant topic of conversation in those places is often about other villagers. Who has what, what did so and so get up to? Just one example.
    Somewhere in these teachings is a reference to gossip and right speech. The teacher says that it was an ancient form of accountability. In small-scale societies, it might be who's sharing, who's not, who's hoarding, who's not pulling their weight, and perhaps, most importantly, how much support is their for the skiver to be punished?
    Now I just now googled this link on gossip in the discipline of anthropology. The article argues anthropologists have only recently started taking gossip seriously, although the citations start at 1963 and end at 1996.
    Gossip is a game, undertaken by members of a social group in order to maintain the coherence and unity of that group. When people gossip about each other, and about outsiders, they make ethical judgements about behaviour and maintain their group’s social values. At the same time, gossip is a means of social control: it polices acceptable behaviour and reinforces the values and demands of the dominant group.
    The discussion's fascinating.
    Gossip is good for you. Perhaps it is the development and equivalence of mutual grooming among other primate species, and that human language evolved precisely for this purpose: to soothe, reassure, and strengthen the bonds that exist in a community. Where chimpanzees will spend hours grooming each other’s fur, human beings will sit and chat for ages – in fact gossip makes up most of our everyday conversations – and the result is the same: a feeling of well-being and belonging.
    Here's another article about how Inuits might've dealt with a psychopath: he or she would've been pushed off the ice. But there surely would've been a conversation about whether or not he deserved it.
    At the same time, here's a post from the comment thread.
    Sorry to say, but gossip as an anthropological study has basically petered out as a trend. One key person still working on gossip in anthropology is Nikos Beznier who recently came out with a book. But overall, gossip as a topic is no longer in trend in anthropology, not to say that it wouldn’t come back though.
    Comment by Thib September 19, 2010 @ 4:21 am
    Reply
    And the whole debate is very topical this past two weeks: it's clear that gossip could've been a powerful self-defense tool against Harvey Weinstein.
    So what, as Buddhists, are we supposed to do?
    Tom
    Gassho, SAT, LAH.
    Last edited by Tom; 10-18-2017 at 04:02 PM.

  31. #31
    Facebook arguments
    lone cook stirs an empty pot
    No guests No food shared

    Gassho
    Ishin
    Sat Today LAH
    Grateful for your practice

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishin View Post
    Facebook arguments
    lone cook stirs an empty pot
    No guests No food shared

    Gassho
    Ishin
    Sat Today LAH



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  33. #33
    I stay away from any arguing on Facebook. It's not worth it in the end and causes more distress. I have no problem with people from both sides have a civil discussion however. It's how we learn other people's perspectives and opinions... as long as the conversation holds no judgement or negativity. But that's difficult to do which makes good practice. Learning to talk to someone who disagrees with you without judgement, anger or resentment is good practice to listen without attachment or desire to change them. I find these discussions are much better in person since you can empathize with them in a deeper way. But for me on Facebook, I try to keep things positive and inspirational.

    Gassho,
    Ekai

  34. #34
    Hi,

    Arguing is just communication.

    Lawyers get into brawls in the court room then go out for drinks afterwards.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  35. #35
    My dad and I have different political beliefs. We use to argue about it, but it never got us any where. I am still liberal and he is still conservative. I choose not to engage him anymore and just enjoy his company. He does the same. I like it better that way.

    Sat2day

  36. #36
    Beautiful

    gassho, Shokai

    sat/LAH
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Troy View Post
    My dad and I have different political beliefs. We use to argue about it, but it never got us any where. I am still liberal and he is still conservative. I choose not to engage him anymore and just enjoy his company. He does the same. I like it better that way.

    Sat2day
    I am the same way with my mother. She is strict Christian...you know the "if you don't accept Jesus as your lord and savior you will go to hell" type. Still that didn't stop me from making a custom rosary for her as a birthday gift.
    Gassho friend
    Jim_sat_lah

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Anka View Post
    I am the same way with my mother. She is strict Christian...you know the "if you don't accept Jesus as your lord and savior you will go to hell" type. Still that didn't stop me from making a custom rosary for her as a birthday gift.
    Gassho friend
    Jim_sat_lah

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    That is wonderful Jim.


    Sat2day

  39. #39
    Joyo
    Guest
    Hello Hoseki,

    Two things I learned the hard way: You can't fix stupid, and let a fool be a fool. Silence and ignoring work very well also.

    A lot of people are naively happy to remain judgmental and ignorant. I just get out of their way.

    Gassho,
    Joyo
    sat today/lah

  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Anka View Post
    I am the same way with my mother. She is strict Christian...you know the "if you don't accept Jesus as your lord and savior you will go to hell" type. Still that didn't stop me from making a custom rosary for her as a birthday gift.
    Gassho friend
    Jim_sat_lah

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    Hi Jim,

    You are aware that the Catholic Rosary and the Buddhist Juzu beads are likely of the same origin, one of those items that traveled up and down the Silk Road. The finger tips have so many nerves that the rubbing is especially hypnotic. Use of the Juzu is not a central Practice of Soto Zen, but is for many folks in Buddhism. Here is more than you ever needed to know ...

    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post194472

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  41. #41
    Jundo,

    I wear a mala every day as a reminder of the vows and do utilize it when I chant. I actually got the idea from a co-worker who has made many gorgeous malas by hand.
    That leads to something that has helped ease my unfortunate distaste for Christianity/Catholicism. Finally seeing that all major religions truly are different sides of the same die.

    Thanks for the reading material!
    Jim Sat lah

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

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