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Thread: Zazenkai questions from a newcomer!

  1. #1

    Zazenkai questions from a newcomer!

    As a newcomer to the Soto tradition, I would really love to know a little more about the actual Treeleaf Zendo and what happens during zazenkai. For instance, I'd love a closer peek at the altar, just so I have an idea of what Jundo actually puts there. And please excuse my ignorance when I ask what it actually is that happens at the altar, how you know when to strike the bell during the ceremony, and when to bow during the Heart Sutra. I watch the zazenkai recordings and really enjoy them, but feel always that I'm missing something through my own ignorance.
    As I said in the zazenkai thread, it was really nice to see Daniela reading the Heart Sutra in German, I feel I know something more now about someone I see every week
    If all of this has been covered in another thread, please forgive me and point me in the right direction!

    Gassho
    Frankie

    Satwithyoualltoday/LAH

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
    As a newcomer to the Soto tradition, I would really love to know a little more about the actual Treeleaf Zendo and what happens during zazenkai. For instance, I'd love a closer peek at the altar, just so I have an idea of what Jundo actually puts there. And please excuse my ignorance when I ask what it actually is that happens at the altar, how you know when to strike the bell during the ceremony, and when to bow during the Heart Sutra. I watch the zazenkai recordings and really enjoy them, but feel always that I'm missing something through my own ignorance.
    As I said in the zazenkai thread, it was really nice to see Daniela reading the Heart Sutra in German, I feel I know something more now about someone I see every week
    If all of this has been covered in another thread, please forgive me and point me in the right direction!

    Gassho
    Frankie

    Satwithyoualltoday/LAH
    Thank you for asking this Frankie! I have had some of the same questions, and have also occasionally considered asking to see a close-up view of the altar in the Zendo.

    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH

  3. #3
    Hi Frankie,

    When we have our Retreat in San Francisco, we will be filming a short film on "Proper Zazenkai Procedures." However, we are really simple minimalists around here, so the instructions are not so many in our Sangha (compared to the elegant ballet that some Zen Ceremony can be) ...

    Basically, Gassho when entering and existing the room.

    Try not to walk in front of any Buddha Statue in the room, or Gassho (or standing Bow in Shasshu) in apology if you need to do so.

    Walk with hands in Shasshu (I have a video already about much of this) when walking through the Zendo.

    Stand in Gassho during the Ceremony, but only Bow ...



    1- During "3 Bows" times (either three Prostrations or deep standing Gassho bows)

    2- At end of any Chant, such as at the end of the Heart Sutra when the Ino recites "HANNnnya SHINnnngyoooo ... " Or, such as at the end of Verse of Atonement" when we recite " ... for them Allllllll". Do not otherwise Bow during Chants.

    3- During Dedication of Merit after Chant, when we recite " ... to Shakyamuni Honored One" (until) " ... and all Teachers in all places and times".



    For the rest, only the Doshi (the priest leading the Ceremony) does all the Bowing alone. Others just stand in Gassho and observe.

    Also, Bow in the prescribed way when sitting down for Zazen and when getting up. I have a video on that already ...

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...093#post189093

    I will also try to post some pictures or a video of our Altar and other corners of our Zendo this week, and show you around a bit.

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatTodayLAH
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-17-2017 at 10:48 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  4. #4
    Member Seishin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    La Croix-Avranchin, Basse Normandie, France
    Frankie thank you for asking this question it gives me the opportunity to raise a point which is been puzzling me for some time.

    Jundo although I have taken part in the Zazenkai for some time now, I have always been curious of the reason for the two rings and apparent hesitation on the 3rd bow.
    Can you explain if there is such a reason?

    Gassho

    Toby

    Std 🙏

    Sent from my NEM-L51 using Tapatalk


    Seishin

    Sei - Meticulous
    Shin - Heart

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    2- At end of any Chant, such as at the end of the Heart Sutra when the Ino recites "HANNnnya SHINnnngyoooo ... " Or, such as at the end of Verse of Atonement" when we recite " ... for them Allllllll". Do not otherwise Bow during Chants.
    We're not supposed to bow when we chant "prajna paramita" during the Heart Sutra?

    Gassho, Zenmei (st)

  6. #6
    Mp
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenmei View Post
    We're not supposed to bow when we chant "prajna paramita" during the Heart Sutra?

    Gassho, Zenmei (st)
    Yes that is correct Zenmei ... we bow three times before the start of the Heart Sutra and right at the end with Hannya Shingyo, Jundo does all the bowing during the Heart Sutra. Now, if you were chanting it on your own, then yes, please do give a bow/gassho. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    SatToday/LAH

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenmei View Post
    We're not supposed to bow when we chant "prajna paramita" during the Heart Sutra?

    Gassho, Zenmei (st)
    No. I looked at ceremony recordings at several Zen Sangha to confirm my understanding. The Doshi (the Priest leading the Ceremony) may Bow at such point, but not the surrounding people who are usually chanting while seated, and do not move when reaching that portion.

    In our Sangha, I am very relaxed about this, and folks have Bowed as they wish. Hopefully, the new film we will make will teach folks only to Bow at the above times.

    Jundo although I have taken part in the Zazenkai for some time now, I have always been curious of the reason for the two rings and apparent hesitation on the 3rd bow.
    I have been asked this question before. To make a long story short, there is a second ring of the bell on the third bell, a signal to everyone that it is the final Prostration. Priests will tend to do a light standing bow before heading down for each Prostration. I have noticed that some Priests just tend to bow a bit deeper that final time. I do not think that there is a particular reason. When I began to substitute Standing Bows for Prostration, I seem to have added that extra Bow.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-17-2017 at 01:46 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  8. #8
    Member Seishin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    La Croix-Avranchin, Basse Normandie, France
    Very useful teaching from everyone who has contributed. Guess this means I can cut out all those extra bows (and half/false bows) I've been doing for the last 6 months or so.

    SIFSRZTM/lah

    Toby


  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi Frankie,

    When we have our Retreat in San Francisco, we will be filming a short film on "Proper Zazenkai Procedures." However, we are really simple minimalists around here, so the instructions are not so many in our Sangha (compared to the elegant ballet that some Zen Ceremony can be) ...

    Basically, Gassho when entering and existing the room.

    Try not to walk in front of any Buddha Statue in the room, or Gassho (or standing Bow in Shasshu) in apology if you need to do so.

    Walk with hands in Shasshu (I have a video already about much of this) when walking through the Zendo.

    Stand in Gassho during the Ceremony, but only Bow ...



    1- During "3 Bows" times (either three Prostrations or deep standing Gassho bows)

    2- At end of any Chant, such as at the end of the Heart Sutra when the Ino recites "HANNnnya SHINnnngyoooo ... " Or, such as at the end of Verse of Atonement" when we recite " ... for them Allllllll". Do not otherwise Bow during Chants.

    3- During Dedication of Merit after Chant, when we recite " ... to Shakyamuni Honored One" (until) " ... and all Teachers in all places and times".



    For the rest, only the Doshi (the priest leading the Ceremony) does all the Bowing alone. Others just stand in Gassho and observe.

    Also, Bow in the prescribed way when sitting down for Zazen and when getting up. I have a video on that already ...

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...093#post189093

    I will also try to post some pictures or a video of our Altar and other corners of our Zendo this week, and show you around a bit.

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatTodayLAH
    Jundo, and everyone who has contributed, thank you all SO MUCH for taking the time to explain. I have seen the videos about bowing generally but wasn't sure about the procedure during our ceremonies here. I'm looking forward to seeing the film from the Retreat in San Francisco ( so wish I could be there!) and would love to see some photos.
    Deep bow to everyone, thank you again

    Gassho
    Frankie
    Satwithyoualltoday.
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-17-2017 at 10:47 PM.

  10. #10
    Just to show a couple of examples. This is a Rinzai group, our friend Eshu Martin in Victoria. He is seated during their Recitation, but you can see how they recite at the "Prajna Paramita" portion at, for example, 4:40 mark.



    A Deshimaru Lineage Soto group in Argentina at 1:50 mark (you can hear "Hannya Haramita" ...



    At Yokoji, which is a mixed Rinzai-Soto group, you can see the small standing bow before each Prostration at about the 7:20 to 7:35 mark, and you can see how perhaps folks just are a little more pronounced that last time.



    They do not show the "Prajna Paramita" portion of their Heart Sutra in the video, but you can also see how everyone does a sitting Prostration during the "Shakyamuni Buddha" Dedication at about 8:55 to 9:15 mark.

    Don't worry about small differences in their timing in doing so. Every group has its own pace and ways. These are just general examples. We say that each Sangha has its own "House Style".

    Gassho, J

    SatTodaLAH
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  11. #11
    This is from Japan, and a little hard to see. It is a formal service where the Doshi heads to the Altar to offer Incense at the "Prajna Paramita" bell, but the monks at the side remain standing without change. About the 2:20 mark you can hear the bell ring after "Hannya Haramita" ...

    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  12. #12
    The Yokoji video was really instructive in that everything is explained very clearly even though it seems very complex and exacting. I did however really love the Victoria Zen Center commitment ceremony, I found myself chanting along with the students, it was very touching and the harmony with which the two initiates moved when bowing with gratitude to family, friends etc was really quite beautiful. I went and found Pt 2 on YT but frustratingly it stopped at a very exciting moment, just as Eshu Marting was about to give them their Buddhist names and there didn't seem to be a Pt 3 The Japanese video was of course beautiful
    Incidentally while I was over on YT I got suckered into looking at other videos, as one does, and watched a ceremony from the San Francisco Zen Center - is that where you guys and gals are going? Wow it was stunning!
    Gassho
    Frankie

    Satwithyoualltoday/LAH

  13. #13
    Thanks Jundo, for the nice Heartsutra video from Japan .It gives the opportunity to join the monks while the kanji-text passes.. Maybe one day i actually can read what i sing..


    Coos

    std/lah

    hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

    Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
    ... it was very touching and the harmony with which the two initiates moved when bowing with gratitude to family, friends etc was really quite beautiful. ...
    Hah! My joke about our Ceremonies here at Treeleaf, given the age, sprains, bad backs, physical whatnot of our members (and the Teacher too) is that, well, I am just happy if we can all manage to get up from a bow, let alone move in harmony.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  15. #15
    As promised, a tour of Treeleaf Zendo in Tsukuba ... our little place ... the Potala in Llasa and Ankor Wat have nothing to fear as Unesco World Heritage treasures ...


    A close-up of our "Beat-Up Buddha" ... a fellow who has seen the hard knocks of life, for sure ...


    And a Soto style triptych, as found on our Altar ... Shakyamuni Buddha, flanked by Dogen Zenji on his right and Keizan Zenji on his left ...


    You can see above Shakyamuni's hands in the "Zazen Mudra" or "Cosmic Mudra" (hokkai-join) as we sit, fingers in a great round Enso egg, while Amida Buddha sits with his hands in the following Mudra, a little different with the the fingers aligned together (check out your own Buddha Statues at home) ...



    ... so, I am not really sure if our insect bitten, pock marked, black eyed, scratch and dented "Hard Knocks Buddha" is truly Amida or Shakyamuni. However, it is not important at all, and he or she is both and neither. At a certain point in life, it no longer matters so much how one looks, as what is inside.

    Here is a film of the interior of the Zendo being built by Mr. Keshiro Aita, the Japanese carpenter and our dear friend still (and the architect, Mr. Ushioda) ... Keshiro san put a lot of time and care into building it for us ...


    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH


    ZendoBuddhasmall.jpg
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-20-2017 at 01:39 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  16. #16
    Eishuu
    Guest
    Lovely to have a tour of the Zendo! Thank you.

    Gassho
    Lucy
    sat today/LAH

  17. #17
    Beautiful tour! Thank you, Jundo

    Gassho,
    Taiyo

    SatToday/LAH
    太 Tai (Great)
    陽 Yō (Sun)

  18. #18
    Thank you for the tour.

    Gassho
    Meishin
    Sat Today LAH

  19. #19
    thanks for the tour, Jundo.


    Coos

    std

    hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

    Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

  20. #20
    Wonderful! Thank you Jundo!


    Kelly/Jinmei
    sattoday/lah

  21. #21
    Great tour, thanks Jundo

    gassho, Shokai
    sat/LAH
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

  22. #22
    What a wonderful place we have with you, Jundo.

    Thank you for the tour.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Sat/LAH
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hah! My joke about our Ceremonies here at Treeleaf, given the age, sprains, bad backs, physical whatnot of our members (and the Teacher too) is that, well, I am just happy if we can all manage to get up from a bow, let alone move in harmony.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    Endless (virtual) bows for this. I always think to myself how much merit and good karma you must accumulate for allowing those of us who wouldn't make it a week in a Monastery in Japan to have access to this incredible practice. In today's day and age, it seems so behind the times to limit its benefit to only those who are physically capable of sitting for hours on end in full lotus.

    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH

  24. #24
    Thank you for sharing.

    Econ though I knew there was a stand alone Zendo, every time I saw the stairs in the background, I half expected someone's mother to come down them and say "it's time for dinner, do your friends want to stay!"

    Gassho
    Sat
    Marc Connery
    明岩
    Myo̅ Gan - Bright Cliff

    I put the Monkey in Monkeymind

  25. #25
    Very nice Zendo. It was always interesting to me how it looks from all angles.
    Thank you for the to tour, Jundo.

    Gassho
    Washin
    sat today

  26. #26
    Joyo
    Guest
    Thank you for the tour, Jundo. You have a beautiful yard and Zendo. I did have a little laugh as it looks like baby Buddha is in a time-out spot. lol

    Gassho,
    Joyo
    sat today/lah

  27. #27
    Mp
    Guest
    What an awesome tour Jundo ... next time I think it will be in person, as I like to sweep. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    SatToday/LAH

  28. #28
    The second floor, up the stair is storage, and a little art gallery of friends of Treeleaf who have donated some paintings and photographs over the years.

    Gassho J

    DatTodayLAH
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  29. #29
    Thank you.
    A wonderful place.

    Gassho,
    Kotei sat/lah today.

    義道 冴庭 / Gidō Kotei.
    Being a novice priest doesn't mean my writing about the Dharma is more substantial than yours. Actually, it might well be the other way round.

  30. #30
    Treeleaf Unsui Shugen's Avatar
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    Nov 2007
    Location
    Redding California USA
    Thank You Jundo.

    Gassho,

    Shugen

    Sattoday/LAH


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Meido Shugen
    明道 修眼

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hah! My joke about our Ceremonies here at Treeleaf, given the age, sprains, bad backs, physical whatnot of our members (and the Teacher too) is that, well, I am just happy if we can all manage to get up from a bow, let alone move in harmony.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    Well you know that very fluid movement they made when going down on their knees, it was on my mind so much that I thought I'd try it yesterday, all I'll say is thank goodness the bed was close at hand to break my sack-of-potatoes fall I remember when I took the Tibetan refuge, I worried more about the nine prostrations I was going to have to do than the vows or anything else and when we refuge takers all got talking it turned out we all felt the same! I survived...

    Thank you Jundo so much for the tour of the Zendo, it is absolutely beautiful inside and out. I think it was in your intro video here that you said it wasn't all about paper screens and tatami mats and I remember thinking, oh please, let it be, because I love Japanese art and artifacts, so it was a real joy to see so much simple beauty in the Zendo. I'll try to copy the Treeleaf sign over the door and put it on the front of my Chant Book folder. Baby Buddha in his naughty step playpen made me laugh too! It's really good now to have that extra sense of the space, it's come even more alive. Wish I could pop in for some zazen and a cup of tea!
    Thank you again, deep bow of gratitude.

    Gassho
    Frankie,
    Satwithyoualltoday/LAH

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyo View Post
    ... I did have a little laugh as it looks like baby Buddha is in a time-out spot. lol

    Gassho,
    Joyo
    sat today/lah
    Well, by popular request, the Baby Buddha has been freed from his crib, and is now on the Ancestors Altar next to the 6th Ancestor, Hui Neng.

    I realized when I filmed the Zendo that I could have changed the camera angle a bit to make it a little big more dramatic ... shooting from below with the garden and attractive Japanese roof of our storehouse in view, but I decided to show it in all its simple plainness. It is what it is.

    I did call it our "barn." Actually, it is a farm building called a "naya" in Japanese. I rather doubt that they kept large animals in there, although perhaps chickens. Here is an even more traditional one I found online, with a thatch roof ...



    *納屋 (or 菜屋) (Naya) Barn
    This building is a barn, called “Naya”, which is divided into three. The left side is a stable where horses had been kept until very recently 50 years ago. The middle is a room which puts farm machines and implements and fixtures in order, and the right was for kind of a warehouse which keeps grain and important articles.
    The other little building I show at the start is really an outhouse, a hole in the ground toilet that the farmers used when they did not want to take their boots off to use the toilet inside the house. Once, I am sure, it was the only WC, but now we have indoor plumbing. We don't use the outhouse much any more (though the squat toilet is good for building leg strength), and leave it to the spiders. If you visit, however, you are welcome to it.


    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-27-2017 at 01:37 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  33. #33
    Thank you for the tour. I've been curious about the Zendo but it never even occurred to me to ask for a virtual tour.

    Gassho
    Warren
    Sat today

  34. #34
    Member Seishin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    La Croix-Avranchin, Basse Normandie, France
    Jundo

    Thank you so much for the guided tour of Treeleaf, its good to finally see "my" spiritual home. as it seems to be becoming. Good to see everything within your/our wonderful temple and the explanations of the various artifacts. I also appreciate the previous ceremony clips. I found the Yokoji video very instructional, delivered in a simple but clear manner and was moved by the final Japanese chanting, which resonated with me, although why I'm not sure, maybe decades of Japanese counting during karate training, that at times I used to find hypnotic.

    Many thanks for sharing.

    SIVZTM and a little lah today


    Seishin

    Sei - Meticulous
    Shin - Heart

  35. #35
    Thank you Jundo,

    This is very nice.
    A beautiful place to sit. Thank you so much for opening it to us and making it available to us.
    Deep bows.

    Gassho
    Marcus
    SatToday

  36. #36
    Ansan
    Guest
    Thank you, Jundo, for the lovely tour of the finished Zendo as well as the reconstruction of it. I especially appreciate the explanation and history of each item and your love of each one. I did not know how large it is but now will have my own internal hologram of where I am when I sit. I can even smell the many fragrances of the statuary, the wood, the presences.

    Gassho
    Ansan
    SatToday/lah

    Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

  37. #37
    Kyotai
    Guest
    I enjoyed it very much as well.

    Gassho, Kyotai
    ST LAH

    Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

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