Oh, those big questions !

[Ugrok]

Hi !

Once again i'm in a deep "questioning existence" phase. Wondering how to deal with it skillfully. For example when i sit and i see my attention wandering, and i come back to just sitting, i wonder "how the heck did i do that?" And i cannot answer... what follows is "what is consciousness"? "Who controls my attention" ? "What is all of this i'm experiencing right now? " Etc etc. And, finding, of course, no answer, i feel anxious.

What is a good way to deal with this kind of stuff?

Gassho,
Uggy
Sattoday

[Diarmuid1]

Finding no answer seems to be the best answer to (not) find.

It is good to ask lots of questions and find few answers. It builds up your doubt and points the way to your anxiety.

Pity the poor souls who think they have an answer to every question that there is. It doesn't take a buddha to spot the suffering that is rolling towards them.

[Jishin]

Me thinks that without anxiety we don't run away from the tooth saber tiger and die!!

We are just wired to be anxious!!

No worries, it's just the way it is!!



Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

i wonder "how the heck did i do that?" And i cannot answer... what follows is "what is consciousness"? "Who controls my attention" ? "What is all of this i'm experiencing right now? " Etc etc. And, finding, of course, no answer, i feel anxious.

What is a good way to deal with this kind of stuff?

Hi Uggy,

Wonderful questions, perhaps, for bed before falling asleep or in a philosophy classroom ... but totally inappropriate for during Zazen. Just put the questions aside, drop the search for answers, and simply return to the breath or posture (open awareness may not be sufficient for you now as you need a firmer anchor).

Would I be wrong to say that this may not be the first time that you have expressed some fear regarding the experience of loss of "self" or loss of control? You are overly worried about nothing really. There is some similarity to my young daughter who was terrified to jump into the pool the first few times, and now we can't get her out! The water is nice, and you will float, jump on in!

I notice your avatar picture appears to be you in ski clothes. When you ski, do you worry on the way down about "what is consciousness and who is experiencing this right now", or do you just ski? Same with Zazen. (Heck, I am so tense the few times I have been on skiis, I can relate to your feeling!)

Anyway, drop the questions and the search and just ski ... I mean, Just Sit!

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Ugrok]

Thank you very much, Jundo. Indeed i cross those questions again and again in my life...

Gassho,
Uggy
Sat today

[Jundo]

PS - By the way, if you want to deal with some BIG question that the universe cannot settle ... Hokey Pokey or Disco Duck? SPEAK!

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post198755

That should scare the heck out of you!!

But, please, don't think about this question either DURING Zazen!

[Jundo]

In French, for you ...



I think that is Johhny Hallyday ...

[Jundo]

Yes, there is a French language Disco Duck ... by Paul Vincent, the Rick Dees of France ...



Like most things, it sounds better in French ... although just a little.

[Ugrok]

I'll go with disco duck, of course !

Gassho,
Uggy
Sat today

[Seishin]

To help my understanding of French I have around 700 Johnny Halliday recordings. I soppose my Big Question is does the collection contain L'Okey Pokey. And why is it Hokey Cokey for us Brits. Much to ponder.

[Enso]

Just open the clenched fist in your mind and let go and fall into the midst of everything.

Gassho,
Enso
Sat today

[Jundo]

Just open the clenched fist in your mind and let go and fall into the midst of everything.

Gassho,
Enso
Sat today

Lovely! One Hokey Pokey in Dutch for you ...




Gassho, Jundo

Sat Today

[Jyukatsu]

LOL......Hokey Pokey in Dutch; you are full of surprises Jundo

Gassho,
Jyūkatsu
sat today

[Kaishin]

Hi !

Once again i'm in a deep "questioning existence" phase. Wondering how to deal with it skillfully. For example when i sit and i see my attention wandering, and i come back to just sitting, i wonder "how the heck did i do that?" And i cannot answer... what follows is "what is consciousness"? "Who controls my attention" ? "What is all of this i'm experiencing right now? " Etc etc. And, finding, of course, no answer, i feel anxious.

What is a good way to deal with this kind of stuff?

Gassho,
Uggy
Sattoday

I get it, I fall into those traps from time to time: they say "well just open the hand of thought" -- but what the hell is it that does the opening!? How can we let go when what does the letting go is what we need to let go?! :P those sorts of tail-chasing questions.

-satToday

[Ugrok]

I get it, I fall into those traps from time to time: they say "well just open the hand of thought" -- but what the hell is it that does the opening!? How can we let go when what does the letting go is what we need to let go?! :P those sorts of tail-chasing questions.

-satToday

Hahah, yeah, EXACTLY !

Gassho,

Uggy
Sat Today

[Jundo]

In Malay (I am almost sure) ...



Hokey Pokey Malay is okay! I suggest, for some big questions, just dance the Hokey Pokey in Malay. Answers will surely come.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Sekishi]

Hi Uggy,

All that has been said above this is probably far wiser than what I can offer, but here goes nothing.

I have struggled much with the big ontological questions about "existence", "ultimate reality", etc. These are wonderful pursuits, but they are also philosophical macguffins. Chasing them too strenuously leads to further suffering.

One of my favorite (and most personally resonant) of the old stories in Buddhism is the Ananda Sutta. In this story the wanderer Vacchagotta (we could call him Ugrok or Sekishi if we want) went to the Buddha, and asked simply "Is there a self?". The Buddha was silent. Then Vacchagotta asked, "Is there no-self?". Again the Buddha was silent. Vacchagotta got up and wandered away (I imagine him rolling his eyes and muttering something about "useless know-nothing gurus"). After the philosophical wanderer leaves, Ananda asks the Buddha why he refused to answer. The Buddha said that Vacchagotta was looking for a *philosophical answer*, and then enumerated the ways in which answering either of these questions would have increased Vacchagotta's confusion.

I've come to see the Dharma as a practical guide to living such that we do not increase our confusion through philosophical questions and absolutes.

So I would say that we do the Hokey Pokey, the Disco Duck, and we offer these body-minds to the service of sentient beings, and simply allow the great philosophical questions to arise and pass away naturally.

Deep bows,
Sekishi #sat

P.S. The Ananda Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....010.than.html

[Jundo]

Hi Uggy,

All that has been said above this is probably far wiser than what I can offer, but here goes nothing.

I have struggled much with the big ontological questions about "existence", "ultimate reality", etc. These are wonderful pursuits, but they are also philosophical macguffins. Chasing them too strenuously leads to further suffering.

One of my favorite (and most personally resonant) of the old stories in Buddhism is the Ananda Sutta. In this story the wanderer Vacchagotta (we could call him Ugrok or Sekishi if we want) went to the Buddha, and asked simply "Is there a self?". The Buddha was silent. Then Vacchagotta asked, "Is there no-self?". Again the Buddha was silent. Vacchagotta got up and wandered away (I imagine him rolling his eyes and muttering something about "useless know-nothing gurus"). After the philosophical wanderer leaves, Ananda asks the Buddha why he refused to answer. The Buddha said that Vacchagotta was looking for a *philosophical answer*, and then enumerated the ways in which answering either of these questions would have increased Vacchagotta's confusion.

I've come to see the Dharma as a practical guide to living such that we do not increase our confusion through philosophical questions and absolutes.

So I would say that we do the Hokey Pokey, the Disco Duck, and we offer these body-minds to the service of sentient beings, and simply allow the great philosophical questions to arise and pass away naturally.

Deep bows,
Sekishi #sat

P.S. The Ananda Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....010.than.html

That's What It's All About!

I would simply add that some very good answers also come to some questions when we stop dualistic thinking and asking the normal way.

For example, I do not think any human being alive has a clear answer to questions such as "who am I" or "where do we go when we die". As the old story goes ...

A monk asked a Zen master, “What happens when you die?” The Zen master replied, I don’t know.” The monk said, “What do you mean. Aren’t you a Zen master?” And the Zen Master replied, “Yes, but I’m not a dead one.”

But on the other "sound of one hand" hand, there is a very clear answer and knowing to questions such as "who am I when I drop all thought of 'I' or 'not I', what is beyond all 'is' and 'is not'" and "what is never born and never dies, thus never comes nor goes"? Crystal clear, thus we sit.

Case 55 from the Blue Cliff Record ...

Dogo and Zen-gen went to a house [where a funeral was being held] to show sympathy. Zen-gen hit the coffin and asked,
"Alive or dead?" Dogo replied, "I won't say alive, I won't say dead." Zen-gen
demanded, " Why won't you say?" Dogo repeated, "I won't say." On their way home,
Zen-gen cried, "Tell me right now teacher, alive or dead; if you don't tell me, I will hit
you." Dogo said, "You may hit me, but I won't say." Zen-gen hit him.
Later after Dogo died, Zen-gen went to Seki-so and told him the foregoing story. Seki-so
said, "I won't say alive, and I won't say dead." Zen-gen said, " Why won't you say?"
Seki-so repeated, "I won't say, I won't say." At these words Zen-gen came to awakening.

Not saying is not always not knowing. Not analyzing and dividing this from that is sometimes a way of clear knowing.

In between just a bag of bones



Gassho, J

[Kyonin]

Hi Uggy,

One of the most difficult things to do is to understand how let go of questions and over thinking while sitting zazen. We humans tend to look for answers and reasons to justify everything we do. We try to get our moneys worth (or any kind of worth) out of everything.

That's why zazen is so important for me: it's useless. You won't get any answers or any kind of reward. Still I sit diligently and with discipline. I sit for the sake of sitting and to get a break of my eternal search for answers.

It sure is scary at times. But that sense of fear also fades away, just like any other thought.

So perhaps try to sit for less minutes?

Just some thoughts.

Gassho,

Kyonin
SatToday

[Kyonin]

Oh yeah... Hockey Pockey in Spanish... and techno... with cute bugs. This is what I'll use in my local sitting group



Gassho,

Kyonin
SatToday

[Eva]

Hello Ugrok !

You have nice questions . If I may offer my opinion .

First of all, I agree with Jundo, that these are totally inappropriate during Zazen (like every other thought, big or small) .
But as to these questions itself, I suggest that you see the wish to have answers as a wish to gain control - grasping, getting hold on, gaining . Not getting any understanding can feel insecure for your thinking Mind . It tries to grasp, and there is nothing . But the feeling of insecurity is also a good motivation to sit .
We can't control our thoughts (as such) but we can control when and where we sit in Zazen .

Gassho
Eva
sat today

[Rich]

Man is the only creature that thinks he has to Know​ more than what is right in front of him.

Enjoy!

SAT today

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Ugrok]

Well yeah, but do you really know what is in front of you ? What is an experience ? What is a sight, a smell, a sensation in your body ?

In fact we don't know what all of this is, and we can't know it.

Yet we eat breakfast and dance the disco duck, haha...

These questions are scary for me but i begin to see that the only answer is "it is what it is", letting things being how they are without trying to think them or do something about them is the "best" way to be.

Gassho,

Uggy

Sat today

[Jishin]

IMG_0104.JPG

Things are not as they seem.

Just sit.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

Well yeah, but do you really know what is in front of you ? What is an experience ? What is a sight, a smell, a sensation in your body ?

In fact we don't know what all of this is, and we can't know it.

Yet we eat breakfast and dance the disco duck, haha...

These questions are scary for me but i begin to see that the only answer is "it is what it is", letting things being how they are without trying to think them or do something about them is the "best" way to be.

Gassho,

Uggy

Sat today

Oh, wait! You believe this Way does not address such questions?! You mean that knowing ... and more vitally, experiencing ... that one-self is fully, most intimately, a manifestation and expression of all of reality looking at all of reality ....

... that is not sufficient for you?

That is just about the clearest answer that one is gonna get to "what is in front of you" (query: what has no front or back??).

Okay, you may long for details. Sorry, some details elude us, like ants crawling across the wing of a 777 trying to understand the nature of flight and aerodynamics. Sorry, can't get it all.

Yet, one knows that thine is this and this just that.

What is wrong with knowing ... and experiencing ... just this/that?

The Universe is truly the Cosmic Hokey Pokey, and the hands and legs of the dancing universe are yours and mine!

From Galaxy Records and the great revolving carnival ride of this Buddha ... We are God Dancing the Hokey Pokey!



(PS - Does that mean that the universe is a carnival, and God is the head Carney? That would sure explain a lot! )

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Ugrok]

Yesterday : great zazen, total surrender, felt like totally myself for the first time in a long time - best thing is it lasted the whole day !

Today : terrible zazen, full of "where am i what am i what is all this" anxiety.

I think my fear, as Jundo pointed out, is about disappearing, finding that i don't exist. It's strange, cause the buddhist teachings that are supposed to relieve you from all suffering, like "not self", scare me and make me suffer (been reading Ben Connely's book about yogacara lately)! Maybe anxiety comes precisely from this paradox : trying to protect something that you cannot protect because it's not there in the first place ? Trying to find something that you cannot find ? But hell, something in me wants to exist and is screaming "HEY I DO EXIST" ! Sometimes i fear that zazen is gonna make me disappear, it's like Jundo said, skiing while just waiting to crash, which is tense skiing of course. Still, i guess it's skiing all the like, bad skiing, but oh well.

GO FIGURE !

Gassho,

Uggy,

Sat Today, about to LAH to my cats

[Jundo]

Ugrok, you are not going to vanish, you are not going to disappear.

I repeat: You are not going to vanish, you will not disappear!!!!!

If anything, your will leap the bounds of your small self and become co-identical with all things great and small. Even if so, Ugrok will still be here, skiing and petting cats as always.

Gassho, J

SatTOdayLAH

[Shinshou]

I struggle with these types of questions as well. If I am being aware, but am aware of being aware, are there two awarenesses? Is there one doing two jobs? Is this "one hand clapping?" Is there a separate function of concentration?

I've tried to put these questions aside for more appropriate, scholarly times, like reading Buddhist books, reflecting on Buddhist philosophy, mind-wandering during a shower, etc. During zazen, I do my best to treat them like any other thought: just something that's happening that doesn't need me, and I don't need it. Still working on it.

Sat Today

[Jundo]

I struggle with these types of questions as well. If I am being aware, but am aware of being aware, are there two awarenesses? Is there one doing two jobs? Is this "one hand clapping?" Is there a separate function of concentration?

I've tried to put these questions aside for more appropriate, scholarly times, like reading Buddhist books, reflecting on Buddhist philosophy, mind-wandering during a shower, etc. During zazen, I do my best to treat them like any other thought: just something that's happening that doesn't need me, and I don't need it. Still working on it.

Sat Today

Wise.

And maybe one day you will find the "answer" by just showering when showing too. Some things are best discovered and figured out when one stops trying to figure things out. It is the difference between wondering if the drops of the shower stream are individual drops, or just the flowing water.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Suuko]

Yesterday : great zazen, total surrender, felt like totally myself for the first time in a long time - best thing is it lasted the whole day !

Today : terrible zazen, full of "where am i what am i what is all this" anxiety.

I think my fear, as Jundo pointed out, is about disappearing, finding that i don't exist. It's strange, cause the buddhist teachings that are supposed to relieve you from all suffering, like "not self", scare me and make me suffer (been reading Ben Connely's book about yogacara lately)! Maybe anxiety comes precisely from this paradox : trying to protect something that you cannot protect because it's not there in the first place ? Trying to find something that you cannot find ? But hell, something in me wants to exist and is screaming "HEY I DO EXIST" ! Sometimes i fear that zazen is gonna make me disappear, it's like Jundo said, skiing while just waiting to crash, which is tense skiing of course. Still, i guess it's skiing all the like, bad skiing, but oh well.

GO FIGURE !

Gassho,

Uggy,

Sat Today, about to LAH to my cats

I like to consider Zazen as the act of washing. When you start to wash, it gives the impression that it's becoming more dirty. However, it's the cleaning process. Just Sit.

Gassho,
Geerish
ST,Lah.

[gilles]

no good sitting
no bad sitting
just sitting

Peace
Gilles

[Jundo]

I like to consider Zazen as the act of washing. When you start to wash, it gives the impression that it's becoming more dirty. However, it's the cleaning process. Just Sit.

Gassho,
Geerish
ST,Lah.

And Zazen is wise-strange washing because, even as we sit, we make no effort to scrub. Just be stopping and allowing, all the dirt naturally falls away.

And at the heart of that wise-strange washing of radically stopping and allowing, we also sit beyond and through all thoughts of "clean and dirty, good and bad" and anything in need of doing beyond sitting. Sitting is Big C Clean from the start, a Big C Clean that holds and washes away all the world's ordinary "clean" and "dirty" things.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[JimH]

Ugrok, if I can offer my 2 cents.....

I am a philosopher and wanna-be "big thinker" at heart, and I have definitely had many of the same thoughts that you have had, and occasionally still do. I don't normally get anxiety from these thoughts or thought processes, but I did as a child, when trying to understand a limitless universe ("So the Earth exists in space, but what holds in space? And then what holds in what holds in space?").

Nowadays, I find more enjoyment in just looking at *experiencing*. Taking a moment from time to time to really focus on my senses: the warmth of sunlight on my face, the feel of the breeze, really enjoying how something tastes, etc. The "bigger world" still exists, but I think of it like listening to news reports. Yes, the "bigger question" things are interesting, but can I change them? Can I fully understand them? Probably not....so I don't worry about them. I focus on the *now*, on the *this moment* as much as possible.

Ironically, this is what I was listening to as I came upon this post: .

Questioning is not the problem, IMHO. Worrying about things you can't change, or letting them get beyond the point of "Huh. Well, that's interesting...." is where the problem comes up. If you find yourself getting anxiety, though.....just sit!

My advice would be: when sitting zazen, let zazen be the "big thought"...."no thought as big thought". Let the universe come to you....and exist in you....and "just be".

Gassho--

--JimH

SatToday!

[Ugrok]

Thank you for your answers.

I, too, was once able to ask myself these questions without freaking out. I noticed that these questions begin to freak me out when stuff is not going like i would like to in my life or when things change (jobs change, city change, stuff like this). For example, those questions did not bother me as much in the last two weeks. But i have a really important job interview this afternoon, and as soon as i began to stress about it, a few days ago, those questions came back with a vengeance... I'm looking at stuff and wondering what the heck this really is, who am i in link to the stuff i'm looking at, where am i, what is all this, is this all a projection of my consciousness, am i alone in my own consciousness or on the contrary, am i not distinct from everything and as such non existant ? And this is unsettling again !

This morning i told myself : okay, you don't know who you are or what the heck is all this. Now, imagine you DO know. What would it change ? Would it be so great to know for once "who you are" ? Would it be so great to know for once what experience is ? Well, i'm not sure is would, as it would mean that things can never change. So for a moment i stopped trying, i stopped trying to live, i stopped trying to figure it out, i stopped trying to question and to answer, and i felt bliss, and... fell asleep.

Then i woke up and sat.

Gassho,

Uggy
Sat Today

[Jundo]

Know thyself. Lovely.

Gassho J

SattodayLAH