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Thread: Hara - The Gut Brain?

  1. #1
    Gaman
    Guest

    Hara - The Gut Brain?

    Hi Treeleafers,
    I have a secret fascination with the Gut Brain/Gut-Brain-Axis.

    My ears pricked up when Jundo mentioned in his beginner's video series the word Hara, mentioning it is a spot somewhere between belly button and pubic bone, and to place your hands there while sitting.
    I also heard Zen Masters advise that "while sitting, fold your hands [in Cosmic Mudra] and imagine gently holding your brain in that spot" (I can't remember the exact statement, but it was along those lines).
    Well, if that is not bringing Gut and Brain in line!
    While Westeners seem to only very recently have discovered the Gut Brain, Hara was obviously well known in Zen circles hundreds of years ago (Question mark?!?), to a point where you can't answer Koans in the usual way, but have to "feel" the answer. (Or am I totally off track here? Input would be much appreciated!)

    Where can I find more info on Hara, especially in Zen terms as opposed to medical papers please? Any book recommendations? Google results are meager, not necessarily by respectable sources unfortunately, full of esoteric connotations etc.

    Gassho,
    Fiona

    SatToday

  2. #2
    Hmmm.

    Scientists have recently discovered that our neurological system is actually more than brain and nerves, and there is a kind of "gut brain" that releases hormones and such in connection with the endocrine system.

    http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/healt...gut-connection

    But, ya know, I don't think the "Hara" was really talking about that. The Hara (Tanden) derives from an old Chinese/Daoist belief in energy flows, perhaps closely connected to Chakra and such, that I simply do not believe has much basis in fact. Mostly an imagined belief from the days before folks had much understanding of physiology and modern medicine.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hara_(tanden)

    In the martial arts, it is closely connected to the "center of balance" of the body I understand. I sometimes use the term to mean "breathe deep from the diaphram -as if- from the Hara", but I do not believe that literally the breath travels down there somehow past the lungs. You will find A LOT on the internet on this ... from Reiki practitioners (baloney in my book apart from anecdotal claims and the real placebo effect) and the like. Most of it is Hara hogwash I feel.

    http://skepdic.com/reiki.html

    Sorry, no recommendation here.

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatToday
    Last edited by Jundo; 04-25-2017 at 04:39 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  3. #3

    Hara - The Gut Brain?

    I punch Jundo in the Hara. He says ouch and bends over gasping unable to breathe. He says my brain hurts!

    There are serotonin receptors all over the body including brain and gut. I give Jundo Prozac and vomits and says I feel great!



    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
    Last edited by Jishin; 04-25-2017 at 05:33 AM.

  4. #4
    Hi Fiona

    I agree with Jundo. The hara was seen as a seat of energy flow rather than part of the nervous system. There seems to be a great passion at the moment for attempting to align eastern thinking and western physiology such as correlating chakras with endocrine glands. I think that the gut - brain connection is a very interesting one and has implications for mental and physical illness. I am less sure that it has implications for spiritual practice.

    The hara seems to be roughly were the human centre of gravity is, as well as being close to the diaphragm. As such, it seems reasonable to focus attention there when breathing.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-

  5. #5
    Gaman
    Guest
    Oooh...Just a Chakra thing with no scientific proof then. How disappointing. What does the line "hara shifu ra" refer to in the Sho Sai Myo Kichijo Dharani then? Simply the abdomen?

    SHO SAI MYO KICHJO DHARANI

    NO MO SAN MAN DA MOTO NAN
    OHA RA CHI KOTO SHA SONO NAN
    TO JI TO EN GYA GYA GYA KI GYA KI UN NUN
    SHIFU RA SHIFURA HARA SHIFU RA HARA SHIFU RA
    CHISHU SA CHISHU SA SHUSHI RI SHUSHI RI
    SOHA JA SOHA JA SEN CHIRI GYA SHIRI EI SOMO KO

    Veneration to all Buddhas!
    The incomparable Buddha-power that banishes suffering.
    Om! The Buddha of reality, wisdom, Nirvana!
    Light! Light! Great light! Great light!
    With no categories, this mysterious power
    Saves all beings; suffering goes, happiness comes, Swaha!

    Thanks for your inputs,
    Fiona

  6. #6
    Mp
    Guest
    Hey Fiona,

    Me too ... I agree with Jundo in knowing the Hara (Chi in Chinese and Long in Tibetan) to be a place of energy of the center of one's balance. I practice Aikido and we talk about the Hara being the place that we move from. But we see it as a center point, more like an axis, a place to move around or move forward/backward. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    s@today

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Komorebi View Post
    Oooh...Just a Chakra thing with no scientific proof then. How disappointing. What does the line "hara shifu ra" refer to in the Sho Sai Myo Kichijo Dharani then? Simply the abdomen?

    SHO SAI MYO KICHJO DHARANI

    NO MO SAN MAN DA MOTO NAN
    OHA RA CHI KOTO SHA SONO NAN
    TO JI TO EN GYA GYA GYA KI GYA KI UN NUN
    SHIFU RA SHIFURA HARA SHIFU RA HARA SHIFU RA
    CHISHU SA CHISHU SA SHUSHI RI SHUSHI RI
    SOHA JA SOHA JA SEN CHIRI GYA SHIRI EI SOMO KO

    Veneration to all Buddhas!
    The incomparable Buddha-power that banishes suffering.
    Om! The Buddha of reality, wisdom, Nirvana!
    Light! Light! Great light! Great light!
    With no categories, this mysterious power
    Saves all beings; suffering goes, happiness comes, Swaha!

    Thanks for your inputs,
    Fiona
    Ah. I also believe that the "SHO SAI MYO KICHJO DHARANI" (Auspicious Dharani For Averting Calamity) is basically an old hocus-pocus abracadabra magic spell meant to avert fires, broken legs and the like. We generally don't recite it around here, and I would like nothing better than to remove such superstition from Soto Zen.

    That is just my belief. Many many Zen Sangha recite it because it is tradition, and they find their own modern interpretations for it. However, in point of fact, it is an old magic spell the recital of which was meant to, well, avert calamities. The English translation of the words, by the way, is not really what the words likely mean in Sanskrit, not even close. In fact, nobody knows what the Sanskrit sounds mean for the most part, and it was just the sound that packed the magic power (thus the "abracadabra" or "open sesame" is quite accurate). I believe that D.T. Suzuki and some other folks tried to stick an English translation on, but it was just his imagination of what the sounds might mean more than anything. Any original meaning is lost in the fog of history. So, I believe that nobody has much idea what "hara shifu ra" originally was (it is a Chinese-Japanese mispronunciation of the original Sanskrit anyway).

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 04-25-2017 at 02:10 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  8. #8
    PS ^ The late great Daiho Loori found some significance in the Dharani even for modern times. He is better than me, I don't try.

    The Sho Sai Myo Kichijo Dharani, chanted everyday at the monastery, is part of the healing service. This chant is pure sounds, not words. There’s no translation for it. It is a sequence of sounds that dates back to Sanskrit sources, a series of linked mantras designed to create a healing state of consciousness. Sounds do that. “Auuummm…” creates a certain mind-set. “Yeeeeeppiii!” creates a very different kind of mind-set. In the Sho Sai Myo Kichijo Dharani we invoke the healing mind. All the different voices of the sangha set up a resonance, a synergy. When the chanting is right on, it goes beyond sound. You can actually feel it. Simultaneously, the officiant is using mantras and mudras to create the same type of focus, to reinforce that connection, the harmony, the healing. That’s the great function being awakened.
    http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Budd...0Discussed.htm
    Hmmmm. Perhaps. But the only sound I wish to make about this is a big Brooklyn rasberry ...

    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  9. #9
    Treeleaf Priest / Engineer Sekishi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
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    Virginia, USA
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    I think that the gut - brain connection is a very interesting one and has implications for mental and physical illness. I am less sure that it has implications for spiritual practice.

    The hara seems to be roughly were the human centre of gravity is, as well as being close to the diaphragm. As such, it seems reasonable to focus attention there when breathing.
    Hi Fiona,

    My thinking is pretty well in line with what Kokuu, Jundo and others have said. I think in practice, finding balance and stability (literal and figurative) is key. Whether this is explained as placing the mind / attention on the hara, the tips of the fingers, in the upturned palms, or the tip of the nose (all instructions I've heard over the years), the function is similar.

    That said, I have a family member who is obsessed with the "enteric nervous system" (perhaps the "gut brain" you are referring to) which is actually pretty neat (even if only tangentally related to actual practice). Humans have 500,000,000 neurons in our GI tract. That is "thinking with your gut"!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_system

    Gassho,
    Sekishi #sat
    Sekishi | 石志 | He/him | Better with a grain of salt, but best ignored entirely.

  10. #10
    Hi Sekishi

    It is not just the nervous system part of the gut which is seemingly important but also the fact that the organisms that live there can change in response to what is happening in the body and mind as well as influencing them.

    A recent study found that the number of beneficial gut flora were improved following exercise but people with my illness had a different effect with an increase in potentially harmful species such as Clostridium increasing post-exertion: http://www.prohealth.com/library/sho...fm?libid=22177

    Giulia Enders' book Gut has been on my reading list for a while and I really should get around to it.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-

  11. #11
    Member Getchi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Between Sea and Sky, Australia.
    Just remember, the brain is simply an extension of the spinal column.

    There is fundamentally no difference between thinking and stomach secretions.

    Geoff.

    SatToday.
    Nothing to do? Why not Sit?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Getchi View Post
    Just remember, the brain is simply an extension of the spinal column.

    There is fundamentally no difference between thinking and stomach secretions.

    Geoff.

    SatToday.
    Oddly enough this was a actually big thing for me in my zen practice. Call it an enlightenment or an "ah ha" moment but it hit me solidly and has stuck with me over the years.
    I developed IBS in my 40's and it's irritating more than anything but it makes meditation exciting because I get to sit zazen with the pod of humpback whales singing from my insides!
    It used to piss me off and I would try to make it stop by clenching my abdomen or shifting around but somewhere along the line I realized that there was a parallel between stomach noise and the random thoughts that came bubbling up in my head during zazen. Once I realized that there was really no difference I was better able to ignore both the thoughts AND the sounds. (Well, not "ignore" but "open the hands of thought" and just let them be).
    Once I made that connection it wasn't too big a stretch to realize that the kids playing loudly downstairs, that damn dog across the street and the squirrels playing on the roof were all in the same category.
    Insides, outsides, on the roof, downstairs, in your head or down in your guts. It's all one, baby. Groovy.
    Gassho,
    Hoko
    #SatToday
    法 Dharma
    口 Mouth

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoko View Post
    Oddly enough this was a actually big thing for me in my zen practice. Call it an enlightenment or an "ah ha" moment but it hit me solidly and has stuck with me over the years.
    I developed IBS in my 40's and it's irritating more than anything but it makes meditation exciting because I get to sit zazen with the pod of humpback whales singing from my insides!
    It used to piss me off and I would try to make it stop by clenching my abdomen or shifting around but somewhere along the line I realized that there was a parallel between stomach noise and the random thoughts that came bubbling up in my head during zazen. Once I realized that there was really no difference I was better able to ignore both the thoughts AND the sounds. (Well, not "ignore" but "open the hands of thought" and just let them be).
    Once I made that connection it wasn't too big a stretch to realize that the kids playing loudly downstairs, that damn dog across the street and the squirrels playing on the roof were all in the same category.
    Insides, outsides, on the roof, downstairs, in your head or down in your guts. It's all one, baby. Groovy.
    Gassho,
    Hoko
    #SatToday


    Sounds like a kind of Irritable Bowel Satori.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  14. #14
    I've had tinnitus for a number of years. Started in my late teens probably. Every once in a while I would get ringing in my ears and after an hour or a few moments it would disappear. Working in the telephone industry enhanced this feature of my hearing to the point that I have had constant ringing for at least forty to fifty years. I can't remember when it became constant. However, Hoko has just reminded me that I actually don't hear ringing during zazen for at least twenty years now. In fact, this past Monday one of the members of the sitting group said that he was unable to experience his usual serenity during his zazen because of this ringing that has started up in his hearing. This started me wondering where the tinnitus goes. actually, earlier this evening while sitting I consciously looked and couldn't find it.

    thank you and gassho,
    sattoday
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Shokai View Post
    I've had tinnitus for a number of years. Started in my late teens probably. Every once in a while I would get ringing in my ears and after an hour or a few moments it would disappear. Working in the telephone industry enhanced this feature of my hearing to the point that I have had constant ringing for at least forty to fifty years. I can't remember when it became constant. However, Hoko has just reminded me that I actually don't hear ringing during zazen for at least twenty years now. In fact, this past Monday one of the members of the sitting group said that he was unable to experience his usual serenity during his zazen because of this ringing that has started up in his hearing. This started me wondering where the tinnitus goes. actually, earlier this evening while sitting I consciously looked and couldn't find it.

    thank you and gassho,
    sattoday
    Another Zazen miracle!

    Lovely to know. I looked to see if any literature on this ... seems to be some connection in meditation research ...

    http://www.hearingreview.com/2015/04...ess-reduction/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/articles/28357966/

    http://www.npr.org/sections/health-s...lear-your-mind

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  16. #16
    During a very difficult time in my life, just before I found my practice, I suffered terrible pain in my lower abdomin.

    As I began my practice, I discovered the hara and discovered how my stress energy had been causing me to clench and cause that pain.

    I apologize I don't have any good resources for you, but relaxing and opening my hara has been something that has helped my health and practice.

    Gassho,
    Seido
    SatToday
    The strength and beneficence of the soft and yielding.
    Water achieves clarity through stillness.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Seido View Post
    During a very difficult time in my life, just before I found my practice, I suffered terrible pain in my lower abdomin.

    As I began my practice, I discovered the hara and discovered how my stress energy had been causing me to clench and cause that pain.

    I apologize I don't have any good resources for you, but relaxing and opening my hara has been something that has helped my health and practice.

    Gassho,
    Seido
    SatToday
    I personally do not believe that the "Hara" exists, and it is a bit of old Chinese belief without basis in actual physiology that crept into Zen Practice. It is little more than a myth, although the body's center of gravity is around there.

    That said, I am glad that you are relaxing and feeling less pain.

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  18. #18
    Hi,

    Tinnitus can be a focus of meditation just like breathing, posture or spacious awareness in shikantaza. It can be a blessing in disguise if treated so.

    My 2 cents.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    Hi,

    Tinnitus can be a focus of meditation just like breathing, posture or spacious awareness in shikantaza. It can be a blessing in disguise if treated so.

    My 2 cents.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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