Heart Sutra

[Kyousui]

That sutra is fascinating and really needs to be practiced in order to understand truly but my intellectual part wants details. At the last coffeehouse Thich Naht Hahn's book The Heart of Understanding Commentaries on the Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra was recommended. I'm slowly reading it, slowly because I want to digest it fully.

Maybe Jundo et al. might post something too. I see there were videos on the topic but they don't seem to be accessible now.

Possibly other members might like to comment on their understandings of the sutra?

[Jundo]

Hi Tom,

I usually recommend translator/scholar Red Pine's book, which offers a detailed yet readable explanation of the meaning and history line by line. It is not perfect, but it is darn good.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003XKN6IC...ng=UTF8&btkr=1

Hmmm, I haven't spoken about the Heart Sutra for a few years now ... and the old talks seem to have vanished into emptiness and impermanency. Perhaps April's monthly Zazenkai talk would be a good chance to get back into it? Or maybe it will take a short series of talks ... Hmmmm. Let's do it!

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Seishin]

Jundo

Looking at it from the perspective of a newbie like me, a series of talks would be of great value. It would allow study of the Sutra at ones own pace but also add to the library of lessons provided here, which is invaluable to folks like me starting out on this path and can be revisited 10000 times, as ones experience grows and understanding deepens.

I'm sure there'll be future new 'leafers who would therefore benefit. Just my 2 cents.

[lorax]

Thanks Tom for getting Jundo back on the Heart Sutra again! Was just thinking about that the other day how over time you start to loose your grasp on this wonderful practice. Waiting for the new talks.

SAT TODAY

[Jishin]

There is nothing to say about the Heart Sutra. It's the ultimate prank.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Kyousui]

There is nothing to say about the Heart Sutra. It's the ultimate prank.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

But it cannot be all said

[Shokai]

I found Shohaku Okamura's explanation in his book "Living by Vow" to be very helpful.

gassho,

Sat Today

[Geika]

After reading or chanting it almost every day for years now, I don't really feel the need to try and talk about it. It seems against the grain for me. But of course there are many here who might like lots of discussion on it. Who am I to argue? My only words will be, take once daily and let it settle in.

Gassho, sat today

[Risho]

Jishin - hahahaha I love it

Tom - how do you really practice the heart sutra?

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Jundo]

I found Shohaku Okamura's explanation in his book "Living by Vow" to be very helpful.

gassho,

Sat Today

Oh, yes yes! He covers the Heart Sutra and many of the other Chants that one encounters around here.

LIVING BY VOW
A Practical Introduction to Eight Essential Zen Chants and Texts
Shohaku Okumura

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/living-vow

Perhaps that book, or Red Pine's, would be good as our next selection in the "Beyond Words & Letters Book Club"? Hmmmm.

By the way, most of the Chants (Heart Sutra, Harmony of Relative & Absolute, Four Vows ... ) are actually statements of Zen Buddhist and Mahayana philosophy and viewpoints. The Heart Sutra and "Harmony of Relative & Absolute", for example, are basic statements of Emptiness, the interidentity of such to this world of apparent form in which we live, and the role of the human mind in creating such interidentity. (It is not that Zen is free of all philosophizing and doctrines and viewpoints, but merely that our philosophy and often mindbending viewpoints are not are usual ways of seeing and experiencing the world and who we are, and we know when to think about things ... and when to put the words down and not to!) Monks of old understood this basic philosophy and these doctrines, engraving them in their bones, before they "burned the books." So, I usually recommend folks to read and understand what is written there, and then and only then, to forget about what the words mean and pour oneself into the sound ... ... ...

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Risho]

Yes please! I haven't read Red Pine's version since around the time I joined Treeleaf; a lot of it didn't make sense back then; I had just, just, just started sitting. I'd really love to read that.

Gassho

Risho
-sattoday

[Jishin]

I like Red Pine.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Mp]

Oh, yes yes! He covers the Heart Sutra and many of the other Chants that one encounters around here.

LIVING BY VOW
A Practical Introduction to Eight Essential Zen Chants and Texts
Shohaku Okumura

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/living-vow

Perhaps that book, or Red Pine's, would be good as our next selection in the "Beyond Words & Letters Book Club"? Hmmmm.

By the way, most of the Chants (Heart Sutra, Harmony of Relative & Absolute, Four Vows ... ) are actually statements of Zen Buddhist and Mahayana philosophy and viewpoints. The Heart Sutra and "Harmony of Relative & Absolute", for example, are basic statements of Emptiness, the interidentity of such to this world of apparent form in which we live, and the role of the human mind in creating such interidentity. (It is not that Zen is free of all philosophizing and doctrines and viewpoints, but merely that our philosophy and often mindbending viewpoints are not are usual ways of seeing and experiencing the world and who we are, and we know when to think about things ... and when to put the words down and not to!) Monks of old understood this basic philosophy and these doctrines, engraving them in their bones, before they "burned the books." So, I usually recommend folks to read and understand what is written there, and then and only then, to forget about what the words mean and pour oneself into the sound ... ... ...

Gassho, J

SatToday

Living by Vow is a lovely read ... I would very much look forward to it being a book for reading during our book club. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Kyousui]

J
Tom - how do you really practice the heart sutra?

Gassho,

Risho

I see the emoticon but I do have a fairly straight answer:
* Chant and contemplate it in meditation.
* Avidly read about it outside of meditation time - Ends up spurring me to some fine mindfullness meditation.
* Recognize the annica when I get into a mood.

[Jundo]

I see the emoticon but I do have a fairly straight answer:
* Chant and contemplate it in meditation.
* Avidly read about it outside of meditation time - Ends up spurring me to some fine mindfullness meditation.
* Recognize the annica when I get into a mood.

And feel such in the bones. That just comes with time. It is like the difference between reading about jazz, perhaps listening to a cd of jazz with little sense ... and playing jazz and feeling jazz in the bones ...



(substitute for "jazz" the art, act or music genre of your choice)

By the way, Zen is also about simplicity ... as in the Ryokan poem Kyonin recited this week ...

My house is buried in the deepest recess of the forest
Every year, ivy vines grow longer than the year before.
Undisturbed by the affairs of the world I live at ease,
Woodmen’s singing rarely reaching me through the trees.
While the sun stays in the sky, I mend my torn clothes
And facing the moon, I read holy texts aloud to myself.
Let me drop a word of advice for believers of my faith.
To enjoy life’s immensity, you do not need many things.

Even those folks of old who would build a hut of grass in the woods usually had studied a bit, and understood, basic Zen philosophy and doctrines and practices before tossing it all away and heading off into the woods. Why?

It is the difference between just a guy with a vacation cabin, and someone who truly understands what is to be one with the trees.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Risho]

Thank you Tom and Jundo

Tom - part of me was being a zenny, but I also wanted to know how you would practice it. Thank you for sharing.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Shoki]

I recommend "Thunderous Silence : A Formula For Ending Suffering" by Dosung Yoo.

Gassho
Sat2day
James

[Jundo]

I recommend "Thunderous Silence : A Formula For Ending Suffering" by Dosung Yoo.

Gassho
Sat2day
James

Thank you. I will have a look.

By the way, the author is a teacher of "Won Buddhism", which is rather a Korean new religion with their own Buddhist teachings. The author may approach the Heart Sutra from such perspectives, many of which sound very nice (yes, one can "approach" Emptiness! ). I do not have much familiarity with the details of the group.

http://what-when-how.com/religious-m...ious-movement/

https://tricycle.org/magazine/the-grace-in-this-world/

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Joyo]

Oh, yes yes! He covers the Heart Sutra and many of the other Chants that one encounters around here.

LIVING BY VOW
A Practical Introduction to Eight Essential Zen Chants and Texts
Shohaku Okumura

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/living-vow

Perhaps that book, or Red Pine's, would be good as our next selection in the "Beyond Words & Letters Book Club"? Hmmmm.

By the way, most of the Chants (Heart Sutra, Harmony of Relative & Absolute, Four Vows ... ) are actually statements of Zen Buddhist and Mahayana philosophy and viewpoints. The Heart Sutra and "Harmony of Relative & Absolute", for example, are basic statements of Emptiness, the interidentity of such to this world of apparent form in which we live, and the role of the human mind in creating such interidentity. (It is not that Zen is free of all philosophizing and doctrines and viewpoints, but merely that our philosophy and often mindbending viewpoints are not are usual ways of seeing and experiencing the world and who we are, and we know when to think about things ... and when to put the words down and not to!) Monks of old understood this basic philosophy and these doctrines, engraving them in their bones, before they "burned the books." So, I usually recommend folks to read and understand what is written there, and then and only then, to forget about what the words mean and pour oneself into the sound ... ... ...

Gassho, J

SatToday

I have never read Living By Vow, but I have wanted to. I would definitely be interested in joining the book club for either of these books.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Tairin]

Chanting is one of the aspects of Zen that I am less comfortable with. Having said that I'd be interested in a book club study that focused on one of these books Perhaps a deeper understanding of the Heart Sutra would give me more appreciation for that aspect of this practice.

Gassho
Warren
Sat today

[Jundo]

Chanting is one of the aspects of Zen that I am less comfortable with. Having said that I'd be interested in a book club study that focused on one of these books Perhaps a deeper understanding of the Heart Sutra would give me more appreciation for that aspect of this practice.

Gassho
Warren
Sat today

Chanting is just singing a happy tune. Nothing much to think about. When chanting, just tap one's foot, snap the fingers and throw oneself into the beat.

Just found this online (no information on the maker) ...



Gassho, Jundo
SatToday

[Risho]

Chanting is just singing a happy tune. Nothing much to think about. When chanting, just tap one's foot, snap the fingers and throw oneself into the beat.

Gassho, Jundo
SatToday

I really like that! Thank you

Gassho

Risho
-sattoday

[Jeremy]

Chanting is just singing a happy tune. Nothing much to think about. When chanting, just tap one's foot, snap the fingers and throw oneself into the beat.

Yes, as Dogen nearly said in Bendowa: Those who chant sutras are like frogs croaking in a spring paddy field. Just don't do it endlessly, day and night, and don't expect to gain anything from it. In the end it is all useless.

What could be more natural than croaking like a frog?

Jeremy
SatToday

(That's a very twisted rendition of what Dogen said, but I like the image of frogs croaking in a spring paddy field ).

[Jundo]

Yes, as Dogen nearly said in Bendowa: Those who chant sutras are like frogs croaking in a spring paddy field. Just don't do it endlessly, day and night, and don't expect to gain anything from it. In the end it is all useless.

What could be more natural than croaking like a frog?

Jeremy
SatToday

(That's a very twisted rendition of what Dogen said, but I like the image of frogs croaking in a spring paddy field ).

Hi Jeremy,

But historians have also shown that Dogen was a big Chanter at Eiheiji. Read the top paragraph here, summarizing Prof. Foulk's "Just Sitting?" article ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...0dogen&f=false

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Jeremy]

Hi Jeremy,

But historians have also shown that Dogen was a big Chanter at Eiheiji. Read the top paragraph here, summarizing Prof. Foulk's "Just Sitting?" article ...

I know - my croaking frogs post was meant as a joke

Jeremy
SatToday

[Ongen]

Would be great if you pick up on the Heart Sutra in april, Jundo

Gassho
Ongen

[Taiyo]

Would be great if you pick up on the Heart Sutra in april, Jundo

Gassho
Ongen

I totally agree. I enjoyed the Xin Xin Ming talks very much and this would be nice

Gassho,
Taiyo

SatToday

[Shoki]

Thank you. I will have a look.

By the way, the author is a teacher of "Won Buddhism", which is rather a Korean new religion with their own Buddhist teachings. The author may approach the Heart Sutra from such perspectives, many of which sound very nice (yes, one can "approach" Emptiness! ). I do not have much familiarity with the details of the group.

http://what-when-how.com/religious-m...ious-movement/

https://tricycle.org/magazine/the-grace-in-this-world/

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

Yes it's a little esoteric with the Won approach, especially later on in the book. But it's a good read.

[Kaisho]

I also have been curious as to the heart sutra. If you choose to do it I would be very interested.

Gassho
Chelsea
Sat2day

Sent from my LGLS675 using Tapatalk

[Beakon]

Hahaha! That cheered me up.

So, I am trying memorize the heart sutra, but I find it difficult to internalize. I know spiritually I can understand it. Afterall, I knew there was something special about The Heart Sutra, and many other sutras. This particular sutra invokes strength in faith. You can learn more about the history of The Heart Sutra by watching this documentary:

[Jishin]

Hahaha! That cheered me up.

So, I am trying memorize the heart sutra, but I find it difficult to internalize. I know spiritually I can understand it. Afterall, I knew there was something special about The Heart Sutra, and many other sutras. This particular sutra invokes strength in faith. You can learn more about the history of The Heart Sutra by watching this documentary:

IMG_0770.JPG

There are other good apps.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

It is Official!

Our next book in the Treeleaf "Beyond Words and Letters Book Club" (after our current reading of David Loy) will be Shohaku Okumura Roshi's LIVING BY VOW: A Practical Introduction to Eight Essential Zen Chants and Texts (which, of course, includes the Heart Sutra, not to mention the "Identity of Relative and Absolute", the Verse of Atonement, Four Vows and more ... ) ...

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/living-vow

Exploring eight of Zen's most essential and universal liturgical texts, Living by Vow is a handbook to walking the Zen path, and Shohaku Okumura guides us like an old friend, speaking clearly and directly of the personal meaning and implications of these chants, generously using his experiences to illustrate their practical significance. A scholar of Buddhist literature, he masterfully uncovers the subtle, intricate web of culture and history that permeate these great texts. Esoteric or challenging terms take on vivid, personal meaning, and old familiar phrases gain new poetic resonance.

Probably won't be there until the summer, however. I might offer some Heart Sutra talks in the meantime.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jishin]

Looks like a very good book.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Mp]

It is Official!

Our next book in the Treeleaf "Beyond Words and Letters Book Club" (after our current reading of David Loy) will be Shohaku Okumura Roshi's LIVING BY VOW: A Practical Introduction to Eight Essential Zen Chants and Texts (which, of course, includes the Heart Sutra, not to mention the "Identity of Relative and Absolute", the Verse of Atonement, Four Vows and more ... ) ...

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/living-vow



Probably won't be there until the summer, however. I might offer some Heart Sutra talks in the meantime.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Awesome, thank you Jundo ... I very much look forward to it, lovely book. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jundo]

Hahaha! That cheered me up.

So, I am trying memorize the heart sutra, but I find it difficult to internalize. I know spiritually I can understand it. Afterall, I knew there was something special about The Heart Sutra, and many other sutras. This particular sutra invokes strength in faith. You can learn more about the history of The Heart Sutra by watching this documentary:

Thank you Beakon.

It is a very beautiful film. I will say that the presentation is a bit idealized. I read the diary of the 7th Chinese monk Xuanzang during my own recent pilgrimage to India (by train and plane, not foot and elephant however). In a sense, he went to India looking for the "real Buddhism" and probably did not find it there ... or, better said, found many Buddhism(s) that had blossomed over time. Nonetheless, it was an incredible human journey and testament to his faith.

The Heart Sutra was not actually preached at Vulture Peak (another place I was fortunate to visit!). It was written hundreds of years after the life of the Buddha, by other authors ... now believed to have been in China by the way, not India. However, in a real sense, because the Heart Sutra contains powerful and timeless teachings on Emptiness, it was truly preached on Vulture Peak and everywhere in the world, in the Buddha's time and our time and all time. It is the "Buddha's words" even if the man called Buddha never actually mouthed them. Understand?

The movie also features the Dalai Lama and many Tibetan Buddhist teachers. Their interpretations of the Heart Sutra can sometimes be a bit philosophically different from Zen approaches, though often just the same. I sometime say "always the same, even when sometimes very different ... frequently quite different, yet precisely just the same."

Gassho, Jundo

[Beakon]

"The movie also features the Dalai Lama and many Tibetan Buddhist teachers. Their interpretations of the Heart Sutra can sometimes be a bit philosophically different from Zen approaches, though often just the same. I sometime say "always the same, even when sometimes very different ... frequently quite different, yet precisely just the same."


I once read that the dharmakaya is essentially everything that arises into being. How would you explain the dharmakaya in the context of the variety of the teachings? I wish that question could be simpler. It's like what you said about the teachings being frequently different, yet precisely just the same. What was it like at Vulture Peak? Did you get to see the bodhi tree at Bodh Gaya, too?

[Jundo]

Hi Beakon,

The "Dharmakaya" is so everything and the kitchen sink that it includes Buddha, Jesus, atheists, the mafia hit man,and the Dalai Lama, you and me. In fact, the "Dharmakaya" is so inclusive and "Dharmakaya" that even sticking a name on it like "Dharmakaya" already is a crime.

Nonetheless, not all realize this fact. So, although all and everyone is "Dharmakhaya", most folks don't know so and, moreover, most folks don't try to live embodying so (the Dalai Lama probably does, the mafia hit man probably does not).

Yes, I saw that Bodhi Tree in India, which is actually the great great great grandson of the second cousin of the original because the tree has been cut down or burned down by invaders and neglect many times (even this is Impermanent). However, one realizes the timeless and indestructible Bodhi Tree each time one sits a moment of Zazen.

Back from a Rohatsu Pilgrimage to India - Nothing Found
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...-Nothing-Found

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Meitou]

I am really looking forward to this and will start looking for the book. It will be so interesting to read and hear teachings from another point of view - having studied in the Tibetan tradition and recited the Heart Sutra most days, I've come to look upon it as something that could be said to cover everything one needs to know in one handy teaching - it was great to find it here in the Treeleaf chants too. I personally think it's wonderful and inspiring to see so many interpretations of one teaching because we are always students and always able to learn something new.
It's amazing how many varieties of tomatoes there are these days, I can buy cherry, spanish, round, purple, green, tiny plum, big plum, small vine, big vine etc etc, but in the end, they are all in essence tomatoes and have that unmistakeable tomatoey quality. I find the Dharma is like that too.
Gassho

Sat with you all today

[Beakon]

Reading the word or saying 'dharmakaya' makes my heart region do that 'glowy' thing I mentioned in my intro. A friend once brought the seeds from The Bodhi Tree to The Winnipeg Dharma Centre. He gave each and all one seed he packed in an envelope. I was excited to learn how to grow my own bodhi tree, but I lost it in my old apartment. Like you said everything is impermanent.

[Jundo]

That sutra is fascinating and really needs to be practiced in order to understand truly but my intellectual part wants details. At the last coffeehouse Thich Naht Hahn's book The Heart of Understanding Commentaries on the Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra was recommended. I'm slowly reading it, slowly because I want to digest it fully.

Maybe Jundo et al. might post something too. I see there were videos on the topic but they don't seem to be accessible now.

Possibly other members might like to comment on their understandings of the sutra?

Hi Tom and everyone,

As requested, I will often a little Talk this month on the Heart of the Heart Sutra during our monthly Zazenkai tomorrow ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...IL-FOOLS%21%29

Let's see if I can sum the whole, Timeless thing up in about 25 minutes!

I may offer a more detailed series of talks later when, as I mentioned, we turn to Okumura Roshi's book in a few weeks as our next "Wordless Book Club" selection ...

LIVING BY VOW
A Practical Introduction to Eight Essential Zen Chants and Texts
Shohaku Okumura

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/living-vow

I just announced it as our next selection ...

Our Next Book Selection: LIVING BY VOW
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...-LIVING-BY-VOW

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jakuden]

Reading the word or saying 'dharmakaya' makes my heart region do that 'glowy' thing I mentioned in my intro. A friend once brought the seeds from The Bodhi Tree to The Winnipeg Dharma Centre. He gave each and all one seed he packed in an envelope. I was excited to learn how to grow my own bodhi tree, but I lost it in my old apartment. Like you said everything is impermanent.

Beakon when you talk about the "glowy thing" it always reminds me of this song



Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jakuden]

Hi Tom and everyone,

As requested, I will often a little Talk this month on the Heart of the Heart Sutra during our monthly Zazenkai tomorrow ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...IL-FOOLS%21%29

Let's see if I can sum the whole, Timeless thing up in about 25 minutes!

I may offer a more detailed series of talks later when, as I mentioned, we turn to Okumura Roshi's book in a few weeks as our next "Wordless Book Club" selection ...

LIVING BY VOW
A Practical Introduction to Eight Essential Zen Chants and Texts
Shohaku Okumura

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/living-vow

I just announced it as our next selection ...

Our Next Book Selection: LIVING BY VOW
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...-LIVING-BY-VOW

Gassho, J

SatToday

Looking forward to this!

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Myogan]

Engaging talk yesterday Jundo, quite full of emptiness.

The five Skandhas are always worth reflecting on. The first time I ever heard neuroanatomy applied to the Dharma was in "Buddha"s Brain".

I had read that , while you can categorize them in a linear fashion, the neurological aspect of them are much more integrated and recursive.

Take optical illusions, for example.
The drawing is there (form), your eyes process the light (sensation), the brain categorizes aspects such as size, shapes, and color (perception), now it draws our attention and discernment (formation), we decide it's a print of some stairs and it's interesting (consciousness). But what if it is this drawing

IMG_0060.JPG

Then back and forth we go through the Skandhas, each time with more and different results as we recognize the physical impossibility of such a structure.

Life is, I guess, the same way. Only instead of being drawn into the illusion, we are drawn into delusion. With the Dharma and Zazen guiding our way on the emptiness stairwell.

Wow, my brain that's not really here hurts

Gas SHO
Sat

[Joyo]

Life is, I guess, the same way. Only instead of being drawn into the illusion, we are drawn into delusion.


Gas SHO
Sat

Isn't that the truth.....how easily it is to be drawn into the delusion. And that's why we return to this again and again and again....."Practice intimately, and return to where you are." Not some other place out there that we create or want or our mind tells us we need in order to be happy.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Meian]

The Heart Sutra is one that i have never understood but very much want to learn about, and the descriptions here have made it even more compelling. Also makes me more glad that I just ordered the "Living By Vow" book, very much looking forward to it.

Also - I love Buddhist humor, got quite a few chuckles out of these posts, some much needed laughter this morning

Gassho
Kim
sat today