The Case Against Empathy

[Jundo]

A fascinating short interview with a Yale psychology professor who, based on compelling evidence, argues that feelings of "empathy" actually can be detrimental to doing good and making helpful decisions. He points, for example, at medical doctors who may find that overly sharing the pain of their patients can cause them to both lose objectivity in treatment and to burn out very quickly.

http://www.ttbook.org/book/case-against-empathy

In the middle of the interview, he points to traditional Buddhist doctrines and studies on meditators that seem to point away from encouraging "empathy" (an inner sharing of the feeling of the person who is suffering) in favor of "compassion" (a willingness to help those in need, but with a heart that is rather more aloof and filled with equanimity).

From another intervview:

Summing up, compassionate helping is good for you and for others. But empathetic distress is destructive of the individual in the long run.

It might also be of little help to other people because experiencing others’ pain is exhausting and leads to burnout. This issue is explored in the Buddhist literature on morality. Consider the life of a bodhisattva, an enlightened person who vows not to pass into Nirvana, choosing instead to stay in the normal cycle of life and death to help the masses. How is a bodhisattva to live? In Consequences of Compassion (2009) Charles Goodman notes the distinction in Buddhists texts between “sentimental compassion,” which corresponds to empathy, and “great compassion,” which involves love for others without empathetic attachment or distress. Sentimental compassion is to be avoided, as it “exhausts the bodhisattva.” Goodman defends great compassion, which is more distanced and reserved and can be sustained indefinitely.

This distinction has some support in the collaborative work of Tania Singer, a psychologist and neuroscientist, and Matthieu Ricard, a Buddhist monk, meditation expert, and former scientist. In a series of studies using fMRI brain scanning, Ricard was asked to engage in various types of compassion meditation directed toward people who are suffering. To the surprise of the investigators, these meditative states did not activate parts of the brain that are normally activated by non-meditators when they think about others’ pain. Ricard described his meditative experience as “a warm positive state associated with a strong prosocial motivation.”

He was then asked to put himself in an empathetic state and was scanned while doing so. Now the appropriate circuits associated with empathetic distress were activated. “The empathic sharing,” Ricard said, “very quickly became intolerable to me and I felt emotionally exhausted, very similar to being burned out.”

One sees a similar contrast in ongoing experiments led by Singer and her colleagues in which people are either given empathy training, which focuses on the capacity to experience the suffering of others, or compassion training, in which subjects are trained to respond to suffering with feelings of warmth and care. According to Singer’s results, among test subjects who underwent empathy training, “negative affect was increased in response to both people in distress and even to people in everyday life situations. . . . these findings underline the belief that engaging in empathic resonance is a highly aversive experience and, as such, can be a risk factor for burnout.” Compassion training—which doesn’t involve empathetic arousal to the perceived distress of others—was more effective, leading to both increased positive emotions and increased altruism.
http://bostonreview.net/forum/paul-b...gainst-empathy

Please note that he is NOT advocating that people should be uncaring and unhelpful to others, but rather is only questioning the most effective emotions allowing one to do so.

I think there is something to this assertion. What do you think (especially those of you who are professional or active caretakers for people in need)?

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Kyousui]

I am retired now but worked as an R.N. specializing in adult psychiatry for over 30 years. One of the things they teach in nursing school (I'm not sure about medical school) that to be a holistic practitioner, one needs empathy, not sympathy. The difference, being sympathy is feeling sad for the patient, taking on his/her misery. Being empathetic, meant understanding the full range of the client's feelings, both mental and physical so as to be able to see what the most effective treatment would be. One learned the hard way to keep a boundary between the self and the other's self. It isn't easy and isn't easy to explain. It comes from experience. Still, compassion fatigue is very real in the helping professions.

I mentioned my specialty because as a bachelor, I have a bit more difficulty relating to children and adolescents. Now, I'm doing Metta with each meditation session to increase my compassion "muscle" and I am seeing it work.

One sees empathy at work in the 12 step model of addiction. One gets better themselves when working with another addict. It's hard to understand fully something one hasn't experienced themselves.

[Jishin]

This is true. I have seen young doctors disabled early in their training. Some never went back to medicine.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Hoko]

There's definitely some value to understanding the difference between sympathy and compassion. If someone is freaking out over an impending stressful experience and you are too sympathetic then it could potentially make YOU more fearful. Arguably this makes you less helpful in attending to the other individual's stress. Case in point my wife has a fear of flying and we're heading to Arizona next week and my 9 year old son is terrified. His fear has agitated my wife's anxiety thus making it more challenging for her to attend to her own distress. In my own experience I've "helped out" numerous baby teeth from patients that were nervous about it and there is definitely a point when you have to turn off the voice in your head that's telling you that you are, in actual fact, causing physical and emotional distress to a child! Ever torn off a band aid? Same thing. In rescuing a drowning person one must be very careful in the approach lest you become entangled in their panic and dragged down with them. Ignoring this very real phenomenon is counter productive. So yes, this is definitely an important topic to consider when trying to "be more compassionate". If we're not clear on exactly what that means we could potentially hamstring our efforts to "save all sentient beings".

So while there's merit to the exploration of this concept my only concern would be that someone could use this as rationalization for being apathetic. Sort of like when Nishijima Roshi said that love should be balanced by hate. Someone who's not clear on what's being said could run with it in a very wrong direction. So while this professor is not "advocating that people should be uncaring and unhelpful to others" there's the very real possibility that someone could tune this part out. Selective hearing is nothing new and neither is creative editing. A good example is the press. The media is all about grabbing attention and even the title "the case against empathy" is an obvious head turner. So as long as the reader can look beyond this and see what's really being discussed (the subtle differences between compassion and sympathy) then I think it's a worthwhile reflection.

Gassho,
Hōkō
#SatToday

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[Mp]

Thank you Jundo ... very interesting! I have to admit that I have experienced that burnout in my life when dealing with my family's issues. In the past when I saw them struggling I want to fix their suffering, which lead to taking on a lot of their suffering, thus to burnout. Now I support them through listening, giving suggestions when asked, and just being there when they are struggling, but not taking on their struggles ... if that makes sense. At first I did find it hard, as it seemed that I was "disconnected" from them, but in actuality, I become more "connected" with them and not to their suffering.

It might also be of little help to other people because experiencing others’ pain is exhausting and leads to burnout

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jundo]

I am retired now but worked as an R.N. specializing in adult psychiatry for over 30 years. One of the things they teach in nursing school (I'm not sure about medical school) that to be a holistic practitioner, one needs empathy, not sympathy. The difference, being sympathy is feeling sad for the patient, taking on his/her misery. Being empathetic, meant understanding the full range of the client's feelings, both mental and physical so as to be able to see what the most effective treatment would be. One learned the hard way to keep a boundary between the self and the other's self. It isn't easy and isn't easy to explain. It comes from experience. Still, compassion fatigue is very real in the helping professions.

I mentioned my specialty because as a bachelor, I have a bit more difficulty relating to children and adolescents. Now, I'm doing Metta with each meditation session to increase my compassion "muscle" and I am seeing it work.

One sees empathy at work in the 12 step model of addiction. One gets better themselves when working with another addict. It's hard to understand fully something one hasn't experienced themselves.

Maybe you are making much the same point, but using the terminology a bit differently? You speak of "compassion fatigue" while the author seems to speak of "empathy fatigue", and the "empathy" you describe seems to have a quite a bit of objectivity and equanimity about it more like the "compassion" which the author advocates.


Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jakuden]

This, IMHO, is 100% true! Whatever the terminology one uses... getting tangled up in the feelings of another being obstructs the ability to be helpful in a compassionate way. It took me several years to figure out that my own emotional turmoil did not make me better able to help others... but keeping those empathetic channels open enough to guide compassionate action is the key. You just need enough empathy to recognize what the other is going through, then it's all other-centered action from there. If they had taught this simple principle in Vet school it would have saved me a lot of suffering and probably would have made me a better doctor those first few years.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday



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[Geika]

I also agree. I can be very empathetic, and when there is a lot of stress and emotion going on around me, I feel it myself and go into panic mode and lock up.

Gassho, sat today

[Enjaku]

I see increased feelings of empathy as the natural outcome of turning towards reality, including turning towards pain and suffering. Those who feel sympathy as opposed to empathy may be experiencing others at a distance, reproducing an illusion of the one who suffers and the one who witnesses it. I think true compassion must contain the awareness that self and other are not two.

Providing good therapy means understanding that empathy is essential to a strong therapeutic relationship. However, empathy alone is not sufficient. Compassion is needed, as it contains both empathy and the positive intention to help. For me, compassion motivated by empathy is the ideal. In order to provide this effectively, one must also practice a kind of "self empathy", allowing oneself to experience one's own emotions without turning away, and "self compassion", responding to one's own needs. This is an important function of clinical supervision.

As I gradually allow the separation between self and others to drop away in my practice, I begin to experience pain and suffering as empty and impermanent. In this way, both my suffering and that of my clients (not two) feels more manageable. That said, when people talk about burnout and compassion fatigue, I fear we simply expect too much of therapists, nurses, doctors etc. Less clients and more supervision seems a more sensible strategy than seeking to somehow moderate our empathy. The British Association of Counselling and Psychotherapy recommends no more than 16 hours client contact per week.

Gassho,
Enjaku,
Sat6

[Jundo]

I wonder if there is something here. The historical Buddha worked all his life to help sentient beings, yet the old Suttas depict him as rather aloof and above the fray, in this world yet not of it, prescribing the medicine for Dukkha to help our suffering yet cool and collected, never (were there rare exceptions?) depicted as brought to tears or swept with overwhelming emotion in hearing the sad story of the individual. For example, his wise and piercing advice in the famous old Buddhist story of Kisa Ghotami and the mustard seed ...

When her son died just a few years into his life, Kisa Gotami went mad with grief. A wise person saw her condition and told her to find the Buddha, who had the medicine she needed. Kisa Gotami went to the Buddha, and asked him to give her the medicine that would restore her dead child to life. The Buddha told her to go out and find a mustard seed from a house where nobody had died. Kisa Gotami was heartened, and began her search, going door to door. Everyone was willing to give her a mustard seed, but every household she encountered had seen at least one death. She understood why the Buddha had sent her on this quest. She returned to the Buddha, who confirmed what she had realized: "There is no house where death does not come."

Likewise for most Bodhisattva and Ancestor tales. Kannon is all hearing of the cries of beings, and all hands offering to help, but with a subtle smile or visage of equanimity.



In practical terms, the doctor or other care giver should stay calm, observant, objective, with a heart and mind which understand and comprehend the suffering of the patient but which do not get pulled in. It is just as the rescuer of the drowning man who must keep control and not herself panic, yet must not simply stand by and ignore the outreached hand.

I feel that this is right. The result is not callous neglect, uncaring inaction, but cool and practical understanding and help. Kannon does not drown in the storming seas of suffering in the world, but rises above it all. The helper cares and offer aid, but sees through the chaos in real concern.



Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Mp]

Thank you Jundo, that was nicely put. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jakuden]

So while there's merit to the exploration of this concept my only concern would be that someone could use this as rationalization for being apathetic. Sort of like when Nishijima Roshi said that love should be balanced by hate. Someone who's not clear on what's being said could run with it in a very wrong direction. So while this professor is not "advocating that people should be uncaring and unhelpful to others" there's the very real possibility that someone could tune this part out.

Yes there definitely are folks in the helping professions that become truly uncaring, with very dangerous and detrimental consequences. I think what happens is: a) a person goes into a helping profession because of a true interest in/desire to help others and devotes time, enthusiasm and often money to learning their field b) the person enters the field and becomes responsible for the amelioration of suffering on a regular basis c) the person either feels guilty if he doesn't fully immerse himself in the emotions of others and then eventually burns out, or else decides to protect himself, which if not done properly can eventually result in a lack of empathy and caring. Unfortunately I do know a few too many practitioners who have arrived at this state and might see this study as support for their laziness or lack of involvement with those they are supposed to help.

The point being, as Jundo outlines, that there is a Middle Way. Empathy is vital, as it is the voice that tells you what you need to do, but then it is the action that follows that is important.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Kyousui]

b) the person enters the field and becomes responsible for the amelioration of suffering on a regular basis
Gassho,
Jakuden

Whenever one takes responsibility for another person, that becomes dangerous and easy to become enmeshed in the drama. That's what boundaries are for - no for fences to keep others out.

[Joyo]

Thank you, Jundo. As a highly sensitive person, I've spent my whole life struggling with this.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[pthwaites]

Hello all. Thanks for this interesting discussion. I enjoyed the interview. There were a couple of thoughts that arose while listening.

First, the author appeared to be thinking of empathy quite narrowly, as the sense of feeling the pain felt by others. This is undoubtedly something that can be exploited for some very dangerous ends - Islamist propaganda depends upon it, for example. But empathy is not limited to this definition, in my view. For example, it also includes the ability to share in others' joy.

Second, the author shared the example of losing his self-possession as his son struggled with his homework. In a case like this, I think that the issue is not so much too much empathy as too little ability to manage that empathy - what I think psychologists would refer to as executive control. So in sum, I'd say that I was not convinced that being empathic is really the problem - it's more a question of being able to balance that empathy with other impulses, knowledge, experience, etc.

I think meditation has a role to play in the development of this sort of balance and management of emotion. But I'm curious what everyone thinks about how helpful shikantaza specifically might be? In other traditions, there are meditation techniques which focus on imagining difficult situations and practicing the avoidance of reactivity. These seem to me to be well placed to combat the effects of empathy as the author in the interview appeared to define it. Does shikantaza present the same level of training here?

Gassho
Sat today
Peter

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[Tom]

Isn't avoiding burnout or compassion fatigue one of the points of Upekkha? I wonder if there isn't a Pali or old text somewhere that says exactly the same thing as this Yale researcher. Perhaps more learned folk here know of one.
I suppose this story is close"

When her son died just a few years into his life, Kisa Gotami went mad with grief. A wise person saw her condition and told her to find the Buddha, who had the medicine she needed. Kisa Gotami went to the Buddha, and asked him to give her the medicine that would restore her dead child to life. The Buddha told her to go out and find a mustard seed from a house where nobody had died. Kisa Gotami was heartened, and began her search, going door to door. Everyone was willing to give her a mustard seed, but every household she encountered had seen at least one death. She understood why the Buddha had sent her on this quest. She returned to the Buddha, who confirmed what she had realized: "There is no house where death does not come."

Gassho, Tom
sat today.

[Enjaku]

I feel that this is right. The result is not callous neglect, uncaring inaction, but cool and practical understanding and help. Kannon does not drown in the storming seas of suffering in the world, but rises above it all. The helper cares and offer aid, but sees through the chaos in real concern

I find this perspective interesting but two issues arise for me.

Firstly, I think there a danger in assuming a "cool and practical understanding" of a person's situation before connecting with their suffering on an emotional level. For example, if a friend can't afford to provide for his family because he has lost his job, one might offer money or to share one's resources. However, if we are able to "put ourselves in his shoes" (which will involve feeling some of his distress), we may realise that our actions could add to feelings of shame or inadequacy. In this case, supporting him to find his own solution would be more compassionate. I would argue that very often the most wise and compassionate response is to listen empathically and do nothing else.

This brings me to the second issue. Very often in therapy (and in life) a cool and practical understanding of a situation leads one to the realisation that empathic listening is what that person needs. For many people who have been persistently neglected or abused, experience teaches us that they require someone who can tolerate and bear witness to their story. As discussed in another thread, this requires the therapist to hold onto and "contain" someone else's distress while that person processes their experiences. The therapist must then seek support themselves, as holding this distress is both the most valuable and the most challenging aspect of working with trauma.

Interesting topic, thanks everyone.
Gassho,
Enjaku
Sat

[Kyonin]

Hi all,

This is a very timely topic for me. Going to hospices and hospitals to help out and to talk to patients (cancer and diabetes mostly) I have seen two extremes of our human behavior. There are the cold blooded and insensitive medical staff that treat people like merchandise, and there are the young doctors and nurses that get burned out by the suffering.

Maybe empathy fails when the helper grabs onto suffering and allows the emotions to take control. This not only applies to doctors but to all of us. One must try to remain calm but always willing to to what's best for the person in need.

In my local zazen group there is a young doctor, Paula. She is starting her career and came to the group because she had read somewhere that meditation would help dealing with stress. She began sitting with us a few months ago and reports that she has been working better and more focused. Also, even if sometimes her heart breaks, she can remain in control of herself to be of better service.

The middle way is always the way, specially for whom works with people in pain.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Jundo]

I think meditation has a role to play in the development of this sort of balance and management of emotion.

Hi Peter,

I believe that we are all speaking of the same basic thing, although using different words. There is some approach to empathy that is sensitive to the sufferer, but which remains balanced, wise and does not fall into extremes. It is necessary to remain somewhat cool to the ignorance that often plagues human beings even as we seek to aid their suffering.

But I'm curious what everyone thinks about how helpful shikantaza specifically might be? In other traditions, there are meditation techniques which focus on imagining difficult situations and practicing the avoidance of reactivity. These seem to me to be well placed to combat the effects of empathy as the author in the interview appeared to define it. Does shikantaza present the same level of training here?

Can you give me a specific example of such an imaging meditation technique regarding the avoidance of reactivity?

I would say that Shikantaza is such an approach of equanimity and "avoidance of reactivity" in the face of all the world, like a clear mirror which takes in whatever appears within. I am curious as to what you have in mind, and then I can say more.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[alan.r]

I'm a little late to this thread, but I'd read this story before, and I think it's a matter of how empathetic one already is. The problem, to my mind, is this: a lot of people aren't very empathetic. But, they're not the aloof caring Buddha, either. In other words, they're not empathetic and they're not compassionate. In other words again, in all likelihood, to be a compassionate person, one first has to be empathetic. This is why empathy as an idea in our culture has gained some traction lately - there are whole swaths of population that don't even really attempt it. That being said, most of us who read and maybe are a bit more privileged and are, specifically, on this path understand that empathy doesn't mean that one needs to feel the pain of all beings at all times. That would be exhausting and you'd get nothing done. But without some stable base of empathy, I don't think real compassion exists. So, to me this is all about balance and moderation. One sits in Shikantaza and goes inward (and outward, not two) - this is being one alone on the cushion. Yes, the entire universe is there, but you're not trying to actively help other beings at this moment. You're just sitting. When out the world, we have to use our empathy skillfully, and I'd say the skillful use of empathy is compassion.

I also feel that if one is getting "burned out" on empathy then that's not really empathy. That's a person making others' suffering about the self in some way. That's me understanding and feeling some of another's pain and going "Oh, god, what can I do, why I can't I help, I feel just what this other person feels and it breaks my heart" and etc, etc. That's a sort of superficial empathy - it makes another's pain about oneself. Real empathy, to me, can only lead to compassion and care, not making the other's pain about oneself.

To me, part of the argument he's making is being made in order to be controversial. The title is "The Case Against Empathy" (these "The Case Against...." titles are wildly popular right now as signaling some controversial (though typically moralistic) viewpoint). My simple feeling is this: he's really saying "don't overdo" empathy and do it skillfully. But that doesn't make for a very "controversial" seeming article. There's a lot of semantic and rhetorical posturing here, in my opinion. Also, this: if a young doctor quits early in her doctoring is that really because she's too empathetic? I wonder if that's a bit too reductive. On the flip side of this, I've known doctors that were so aloof that my wife was mis-diagnosed and almost given some medicine she was allergic too even though she'd told him she was allergic to it and another instance of a doctor nearly giving our baby the exact same vaccine he'd given her not a month before. So, sure, we should moderate empathy and not wear ourselves out, but to this little mind, many folks are going through the world as though other people are barely there.

Gassho,
Alan
sat today

[Joyo]

I agree with you, Alan. I've also noticed that our culture seems to have very little empathy or compassion. Of course, there's always the exception to the rule, but the majority are this way.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Jakuden]

Hi Peter,

I believe that we are all speaking of the same basic thing, although using different words. There is some approach to empathy that is sensitive to the sufferer, but which remains balanced, wise and does not fall into extremes. It is necessary to remain somewhat cool to the ignorance that often plagues human beings even as we seek to aid their suffering.



Can you give me a specific example of such an imaging meditation technique regarding the avoidance of reactivity?

I would say that Shikantaza is such an approach of equanimity and "avoidance of reactivity" in the face of all the world, like a clear mirror which takes in whatever appears within. I am curious as to what you have in mind, and then I can say more.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

I was actually having a conversation with my Ango partner about this... I had an extremely stressful day at work last week, meaning deceased patients (some expected, some not), a lot of bad news delivered, grieving clients (including a dear elderly client who lost her only friend) and a lot of complicated medical scenarios to sort out and explain. Knowing I would sit with all of it later, I was able to focus completely on those around me who needed my help all day and truly be there for them 100%.

Without practice, this day would have taken weeks if not months to process, taking my energies away from everything else. Shikantaza helped me move on almost immediately... although I am still not totally recovered, I am aware of what my mind is processing and have faith that it will soon heal just fine. I also have had expressions of gratitude from almost everyone involved that day, letting me know that we are all going forth together in this.

In the beginning I sometimes questioned my career choice after days like this, and I had a classmate who did change careers altogether (after 8 years of college, she decided to go into construction!) I know there will be others, and I won't have any clue when they are coming. But practice has at least given me some badly needed tools to cope with them when they do come.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Mp]

Without practice, this day would have taken weeks if not months to process, taking my energies away from everything else. Shikantaza helped me move on almost immediately... although I am still not totally recovered, I am aware of what my mind is processing and have faith that it will soon heal just fine. I also have had expressions of gratitude from almost everyone involved that day, letting me know that we are all going forth together in this.

Yes, I know that experience. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[RichardH]

This question was something I wrestled with, because there can be a kind of benign sociopathic model of Buddhahood. Does the case against empathy leave room for us to be deeply affected when our own goose gets cooked, but not by the suffering of another, except for a safe, insulated, caring? It seems so. I don't have answers but am skeptical of the case against empathy.

There are things that happen that penetrate and move more and less deeply, and that is all I know. A love that is insulated makes sense for a social worker, but it is pathological in a parent toward a child. What a parent can do is reflect, man-up, or woman-up, and function effectively because it is necessary, because it is done. If you are practitioner then you are able to not pour fuel on it, or indulge it, but to be inulated from feeling it in the first place, is a poverty stricken approach. Somehow emotion isn't just binary, where you are either feeling it or not. The cool "detached" model was what I rejected when time came to embrace a Mahayana Way. Again I don't have answers, but my gut says it isn't in a case against empathy.

Gassho
Daizan

Sat today

[fudoushin91]

I work in long term care here in the States as an LPN. This excerpt perfectly illustrates why it could be nurses get burnt out so frequently, especially the ones who care wholeheartedly.

Thank you for sharing Jundo.

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[Getchi]

Great article, and I always love reading Ricard!

Im stay-at-home-Dad and my wife was a Nurse. She suffers anxiety and PTSD, both of which were actually made much worse not by her position as carer, but by the demands placed on her as a course of her work. Examples include being given too many patients to feel like she engaged with any of them as humans, and being called after shifts and being told is she doesnt come in, the old folk may not get dinner or a bath.

I saw that this happened because too many of the people in charge were currently burning-out or distanced from there own pain. Ignoring a broken heart doesnt heal it, and we all know thats what keeps us practicing.

Myself, it would be impossible to be myself in the midst of illness,disability and the stress that comes from it. Add two school kids and we all know what that stress feels like. I was doing it very tough, but remembering I am not the only one suffering, that many human have gone before us and that many more will follow after makes it all just a bit better.

Shikantaza allows the space to accept our arguments and my wifes yelling as the voice of pain,insecurity and fear; also tha it was better for it to be done as we can then both move on together. If I took it all too personally I would be a wreck LOL.



TLDR; Universal Compassion is a Universal State conjured within the Mind-Self of this very Body and able to beexercised and strengened. Not entering the water, it remains unspoiled. Empathy is a recreation of anothers apparent emotional state within ourself; literally making ourselves feel sick, fearfull, broken but without an ability to regulate it or see tha we are not just it.


Heres a link tha Ithink demonstarttes it. Everyone will "feel" a certain emotion; but no two of us will feel just exactly the same mix; perhaps Compassion is the wisdom of acknowledging that suffering is not very effective as change.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-2...ngower/8272772



Gassho,
Geoff.

Sat2Day

[Jundo]

I'm a little late to this thread, but I'd read this story before, and I think it's a matter of how empathetic one already is. The problem, to my mind, is this: a lot of people aren't very empathetic. But, they're not the aloof caring Buddha, either. In other words, they're not empathetic and they're not compassionate. In other words again, in all likelihood, to be a compassionate person, one first has to be empathetic. This is why empathy as an idea in our culture has gained some traction lately - there are whole swaths of population that don't even really attempt it. That being said, most of us who read and maybe are a bit more privileged and are, specifically, on this path understand that empathy doesn't mean that one needs to feel the pain of all beings at all times. That would be exhausting and you'd get nothing done. But without some stable base of empathy, I don't think real compassion exists. So, to me this is all about balance and moderation. One sits in Shikantaza and goes inward (and outward, not two) - this is being one alone on the cushion. Yes, the entire universe is there, but you're not trying to actively help other beings at this moment. You're just sitting. When out the world, we have to use our empathy skillfully, and I'd say the skillful use of empathy is compassion.

I also feel that if one is getting "burned out" on empathy then that's not really empathy. That's a person making others' suffering about the self in some way. That's me understanding and feeling some of another's pain and going "Oh, god, what can I do, why I can't I help, I feel just what this other person feels and it breaks my heart" and etc, etc. That's a sort of superficial empathy - it makes another's pain about oneself. Real empathy, to me, can only lead to compassion and care, not making the other's pain about oneself.

To me, part of the argument he's making is being made in order to be controversial. The title is "The Case Against Empathy" (these "The Case Against...." titles are wildly popular right now as signaling some controversial (though typically moralistic) viewpoint). My simple feeling is this: he's really saying "don't overdo" empathy and do it skillfully. But that doesn't make for a very "controversial" seeming article. There's a lot of semantic and rhetorical posturing here, in my opinion. Also, this: if a young doctor quits early in her doctoring is that really because she's too empathetic? I wonder if that's a bit too reductive. On the flip side of this, I've known doctors that were so aloof that my wife was mis-diagnosed and almost given some medicine she was allergic too even though she'd told him she was allergic to it and another instance of a doctor nearly giving our baby the exact same vaccine he'd given her not a month before. So, sure, we should moderate empathy and not wear ourselves out, but to this little mind, many folks are going through the world as though other people are barely there.

Gassho,
Alan
sat today

I was actually having a conversation with my Ango partner about this... I had an extremely stressful day at work last week, meaning deceased patients (some expected, some not), a lot of bad news delivered, grieving clients (including a dear elderly client who lost her only friend) and a lot of complicated medical scenarios to sort out and explain. Knowing I would sit with all of it later, I was able to focus completely on those around me who needed my help all day and truly be there for them 100%.

Without practice, this day would have taken weeks if not months to process, taking my energies away from everything else. Shikantaza helped me move on almost immediately... although I am still not totally recovered, I am aware of what my mind is processing and have faith that it will soon heal just fine. I also have had expressions of gratitude from almost everyone involved that day, letting me know that we are all going forth together in this.

I just feel that these are very wise ways to approach this. Empathy is vital, yet with balance and wisdom too. Thank you.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jundo]

By the way, the following has always touched me. The Dogen movie retells the Kisa Gotami story with Dogen as the principal. From the 48:40 mark here ...


Note the subtle tears falling from Dogen's eyes at 52:00 (a little hard to see on youtube). That always struck me as right too.




(My review of the rest of the movie for those who have not seen it. Recommended.) ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...ll=1#post20686

[Jakuden]

Oh that's a very touching scene... I have not seen this movie, I wish I had cable/wifi at my house so that I could watch the rest. Maybe I will try to look to buy it.

A love that is insulated makes sense for a social worker, but it is pathological in a parent toward a child.

I might politely disagree with this--I ended up at Treeleaf in no small part because I was trying to figure out how to cope with raising teenagers. I felt like I was drowning in their problems, not knowing where I ended and they began. What I have learned through Shikantaza turned out, lo and behold, to be very similar to what I had to learn to effectively help anyone. Same principle: empathy is necessary for guidance, but then compassionate action, which might even include stepping back and letting them learn from making poor choices... sometimes serious or recurring ones. It's Godawful and difficult, for me at least.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday

[Jundo]

Oh that's a very touching scene... I have not seen this movie, I wish I had cable/wifi at my house so that I could watch the rest. Maybe I will try to look to buy it.

Just a movie note, I have heard through the grape-vine that the Japanese Soto-shu allows the movie to be shown on Youtube, so if you cannot rent it, you may watch it there. However, do rent it if you can ...

Gassho, J

SatToday (not watching a movie).

[Enjaku]

I don't know if this makes sense to anyone but somehow this topic feels like I'm being presented with a koan. The more I reflect on the different views expressed, the less certain I feel about the central idea that we can experience someone else's pain. In other words, I'm wrestling with the idea that pain is personal to an individual and can be "marked out" in this way.

Carl Rogers A Way Of Being (p 140) "The state of empathy, or being empathic, is to perceive the internal frame of reference of another with accuracy and with the emotional components and meanings which pertain thereto as if one were the person, but without ever losing the "as if" condition

This quote reinforces the point made by several people in this thread, that we must skillfully use empathy without forgetting the "as if" component (without making it about us or merging with the other person's distress). Yet, for me, this clashes somehow with the realisation that self and other are not separate.

If my friend cries and I feel some of her sadness, whose sadness is this?

Gassho,
Enjaku
Sat

[Jundo]

read, that we must skillfully use empathy without forgetting the "as if" component (without making it about us or merging with the other person's distress). Yet, for me, this clashes somehow with the realisation that self and other are not separate.

If my friend cries and I feel some of her sadness, whose sadness is this?

Perhaps it is better to say "self and others are 'not two'".

Like two waves miles apart that are both the same sea through and through, two leaves which are both the same tree, two trees which are both the forest ...

There is Jundo and the is Enjaku, and yet ... all swirl together in emptiness.

I don't think that I can actually experience your feelings (short of the ability to perform a Vulcan mind-meld which, alas, I cannot do). However, in my heart I can recreate what perhaps is my imagining of what you are experiencing as we both share the human condition and similar hearts.

Gassho, J

Sat Today (and when I sat, the whole sea, tree and forest sat)

[Enjaku]

[Jishin]

IMG_0729.JPGIMG_0730.JPGIMG_0732.JPG

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

Below is a lovely article by a Buddhist Teacher who advocates that we throw ourselves more intimately into others' suffering and do not run from their pain. I print some passages below.

Perhaps the road we are coming to here is that the Middle Way is called for?

I believe that, whatever terminology we use, what we are speaking of is a deep empathy for others, yet with balance and equanimity, able to see through suffering to something beyond suffering but not ignoring the fact of suffering. We offer a hand wisely, but offer a hand.

Again and again we are asked to learn one of life’s clearest lessons: that to run from suffering—to harden our hearts, to turn away from pain—is to deny life and to live in fear. So, as difficult as it is to open our hearts toward suffering, doing so is the most direct path to transformation and liberation.

...

Facing the sorrow we meet in this life, we have a choice: Our hearts can close, our minds recoil, our bodies contract, and we can experience the heart that lives in a state of painful refusal. We can also dive deeply within ourselves to nurture the courage, balance, patience, and wisdom that enable us to care.

If we do so, we will find that compassion is not a state. It is a way of engaging with the fragile and unpredictable world. Its domain is not only the world of those you love and care for, but equally the world of those who threaten us, disturb us, and cause us harm. It is the world of the countless beings we never meet who are facing an unendurable life. The ultimate journey of a human being is to discover how much our hearts can encompass. Our capacity to cause suffering as well as to heal suffering live side by side within us. If we choose to develop the capacity to heal, which is the challenge of every human life, we will find our hearts can encompass a great deal, and we can learn to heal—rather than increase—the schisms that divide us from one another.

...

To cultivate the willingness to listen deeply to sorrow wherever we meet it is to take the first step on the journey of compassion. Our capacity to listen follows on the heels of this willingness. We may make heroic efforts in our lives to shield ourselves from the anguish that can surround us and live within us, but in truth a life of avoidance and defense is one of anxiety and painful separation.

True compassion is not forged at a distance from pain but in its fires. We do not always have a solution for suffering. We cannot always fix pain. However, we can find the commitment to stay connected and to listen deeply. Compassion does not always demand heroic acts or great words. In the times of darkest distress, what is most deeply needed is the fearless presence of a person who can be wholeheartedly receptive.

...

Awareness is born of intimacy. We can only fear and hate what we do not understand and what we perceive from a distance. We can only find compassion and freedom in intimacy. We can be afraid of intimacy with pain because we are afraid of helplessness; we fear that we don’t have the inner balance to embrace suffering without being overwhelmed. Yet each time we find the willingness to meet affliction, we discover we are not powerless. Awareness rescues us from helplessness, teaching us to be helpful through our kindness, patience, resilience, and courage.

https://www.lionsroar.com/she-who-he...-of-the-world/

Gassho, J

SatToday

[pthwaites]

So many beautiful words on this thread - thanks to all.

Can you give me a specific example of such an imaging meditation technique regarding the avoidance of reactivity?

What I had in mind was a technique used in a guided mediation by Pema Chodron, in which she asked participants to imagine spending time with a person who they found particularly difficult; or to imagine a situation which was stressful or troubling for them. The technique involved attempting to simply watch the emotions stimulated by this recollection as they rose and fell, and to trying not to "bite the hook".

It's worth mentioning that guided meditations like these were my way in to Buddhism. I eventually left them behind, at least in part because I felt that my practice didn't have a "core" - I was just bouncing from one technique to another. Shikantaza strikes me as being the complete opposite of this approach - there is no attempt to focus the meditation on anything in particular, no changing of techniques from one sit to the next. But perhaps one thing that was behind my question was the sense I sometimes have that I'm not doing anything in zazen - which is perhaps a hangover from my earlier experience with guided meditation. Thus I'm curious as to whether it can be helpful with specific issues such as the empathy problem we're discussing in this thread.

Of course, wonderful examples like this one help to answer that question:

I was actually having a conversation with my Ango partner about this... I had an extremely stressful day at work last week, meaning deceased patients (some expected, some not), a lot of bad news delivered, grieving clients (including a dear elderly client who lost her only friend) and a lot of complicated medical scenarios to sort out and explain. Knowing I would sit with all of it later, I was able to focus completely on those around me who needed my help all day and truly be there for them 100%.

Without practice, this day would have taken weeks if not months to process, taking my energies away from everything else. Shikantaza helped me move on almost immediately... although I am still not totally recovered, I am aware of what my mind is processing and have faith that it will soon heal just fine. I also have had expressions of gratitude from almost everyone involved that day, letting me know that we are all going forth together in this.

In the beginning I sometimes questioned my career choice after days like this, and I had a classmate who did change careers altogether (after 8 years of college, she decided to go into construction!) I know there will be others, and I won't have any clue when they are coming. But practice has at least given me some badly needed tools to cope with them when they do come.

Thank you for this - I find it inspiring and reassuring!

Gassho

Sat Today

Peter

[RichardH]

Oh that's a very touching scene... I have not seen this movie, I wish I had cable/wifi at my house so that I could watch the rest. Maybe I will try to look to buy it.



I might politely disagree with this--I ended up at Treeleaf in no small part because I was trying to figure out how to cope with raising teenagers. I felt like I was drowning in their problems, not knowing where I ended and they began. What I have learned through Shikantaza turned out, lo and behold, to be very similar to what I had to learn to effectively help anyone. Same principle: empathy is necessary for guidance, but then compassionate action, which might even include stepping back and letting them learn from making poor choices... sometimes serious or recurring ones. It's Godawful and difficult, for me at least.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday

Hi Jakuden. I was typing from behind a stuffy sinus and was not very articulate. When I became a parent it triggered entering psychotherapy, and the main thing I had to learn, had to really process, was that I am not my father, and not my son.
So if my son is going through a bout of loneliness at school, for instance, I am not experiencing my own loneliness as a teen through him. He is a different person, who experiences things differently. This is a healthy separation. He is his own person, not me. Once there is no confusion around that, the empathy, which is a kind of raw sensitivty picking up on sutble cues from body language etc. doesn't fire off psychological suffering in me, born of confusion. Maybe this is more in line with what is being discussed? And sorry for being fuzzy headed right now.

Gassho
Daizan

Sat today

[Nengyo]

IMG_0729.JPGIMG_0730.JPGIMG_0732.JPG

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

The struggle is real _/\_

[alan.r]

That few minutes from the movie about Dogen is beautiful. I'll have to find a way to rent the whole thing. Thank you for posting it, Jundo.

Gassho,
Alan
sat today