Split Thread: A Question on "Faking It & Making It"

[Jundo]

NOTE: THIS IS MY VERBOSE LONG VERSION OF MY ADVISE TO TOBY. I ADVISE TO GO DOWN A FEW POSTS AND READ THE SHORT VERSION (HOWEVER, BE SURE NOT TO MISS THE POST RIGHT AFTER THIS ONE, AND BYOKAN AND JISHIN'S WORDS TOO, ON THE WAY!)

A couple of comments on Shikantaza that I would like to highlight; This first came in response to my post on "WHAT's OFTEN MISSING in SHIKANTAZA EXPLANATIONS" (LINK), where I wrote ...

Shikantaza Zazen must be sat, for the time it is sat, with the student profoundly trusting deep in her bones that sitting itself is a complete and sacred act, the one and only action that need be done in the whole universe in that instant of sitting. This truth should not be thought about or voiced in so many words, but must be silently and subtly felt deep down.

...

I tell my new students to trust in the method until it proves itself. If need be, “fake it ‘till you make it” in nurturing these feelings. “Just Sitting is Buddha” is not a mantra that should be voiced in words during Zazen, nor something that must be unfailingly felt at each and every moment of sitting. Rather, there only needs to be a subtle, yet vital sense and faith, felt deep down in the gut while sitting, that “THIS IS IT! THERE IS NO OTHER IT!”

In response, Toby wrote ...

Jundo many thanks for sharing this article, its good to see these observations collectively, as I am sure I have read much of what you say in a number of different threads.

Although I have now been sitting daily since joining the sangha last year, a mere 5 months or so I still feel I'm in the Fake It "class", as I'm yet to realize how to feel this deep trust you speak of "in my bones". I sit with no expectations, struggling to let go and relax but like escaping from that Chinese finger tube, that's what I need to do. I understand the portability, as I sit without judgement, desire or anger and know that I can carry this with me throughout the day. Yes some days are harder than others and someone or something may just push the wrong button too far but generally I feel I am more accepting of what's going with me and inside and around me.

But how do I find that core deep trust and finally sit without think of sitting, without thinking of not attaining or chasing thoughts of am I doing this right, knowing there is no right or wrong good or bad. So despite committing to sit daily and having only missed one day since Sept 1 last year, this is something I still struggle with understanding. Perhaps I just need to sit some more................

You ask why someone might find it difficult?

Because Practice in any art ... Zen or piano or woodworking or medicine ... is difficult. Because it is difficult for human beings to give up the chasing, comparing, judging and complaining! If someone is not feeling "this is the only place to be", it is probably because part of them is thinking or feeling that they should be some place else right then. If someone is feeling "this is not complete", it is because they are somehow comparing it to something else and judging the experience as lacking somehow. If they do not feel "this is timeless", it may be because they are somehow measuring by the clock, comparing now to before and after. It is hard to put away and halt the comparing and thoughts of other places and times. Sitting is practice in learning how to do just that.

But actually, it does not sound like you are doing so badly after 5 months! You say "I sit without judgement, desire or anger and know that I can carry this with me throughout the day. Yes some days are harder than others and someone or something may just push the wrong button too far but generally I feel I am more accepting of what's going with me and inside and around me." Sounds like a great start.

In fact, it only seems like things are going badly if you imagine and compare yourself to some kind of robot or Zen superman who just has perfect sittings, never a thought of wanting to be somewhere else, never experiencing or prone to an angry or ugly thought. Sorry to inform everyone, but so long as you are alive in a human body, you are a human being. This practice (like any art) is not about perfection. (In my book, the only perfect Buddhas and Zen Masters are the dead ones that people can make up perfect stories about). One can be a master violinist but sometimes hit a bad note, a master carpenter but sometimes splinter the wood, a master surgeon but sometimes slip and harm a patient. We are human. Right now, after 5 months of Zen or violin class or medical school, you are starting to get good at it, but you are not a master yet. Do you know the saying "Rome was not built in a day"?

But, yes, I am asking you to have faith, and to "fake it until you make it", that sitting is complete. Do so until you come to feel it in the bones. Why? Three reasons:

First, just scan the internet, listen to political discussion or open any religious holy book and you will see that people ... all of us ... convince ourselves of all manner of truly ridiculous things each day, much of it with any basis. Certainly, being asked to believe in the fact that "just sitting is complete" or "there is no other place to go or thing to do in this moment" is not as ridiculous or challenging as so many of those other beliefs!

Second, certain beliefs in life become true simply because you believe them. All the faith in the world that "the earth is flat" or "unicorns live in Africa" or "the moon is made of green cheese" will not make it so (although I guaranty that you will find certain people convinced of each of those on the internet! ). On the other hand, beliefs and feelings such as "I love you and you are a treasure in my life" and "cherry ice cream is delicious (to me anyway) and sweet on my tongue" and "mountains are beautiful (to me anyway)" or "not one note should be changed in Beethoven's 5th Symphony (to my ear anyway)" are all true for you simply because you feel so (as are unfortunately so many of our feelings of disquiet, disgust and negativity which are as much subjectively arising as founded in objective fact). Sitting with the sensation and judgment that "just sitting is a treasure, delicious and sweet, beautiful without one note to change in the Zazen symphony" is also true simply because we learn to convince ourselves subjectively of the fact. If you say it is incomplete, then it is. If you say it is complete, then it is.

Third, if you do not learn to rest in stillness and completeness, you will continue to chase after the next thing and the next, always dissatisfied and judging in life. The only way to stop doing so is to learn to sit and rest beyond all that. We learn to be "Big S" Satisfied even in this world that is sometimes satisfying but sometimes anything but satisfying, to be "Big P" at Peace with a world that is sometimes peaceful and sometimes shattered into pieces. We learn to experience a Buddha's View of the world that is somehow quiet and whole and somehow beautiful even for all its noisy, chaotic, broken, sometimes tragic and ugly aspects. If you cannot learn to find that in something as simple as sitting, how easily will you get that in other actions and situations in life?

So, I guess I am asking you to trust some more, give it time, and let it sink in. Suddenly, only day, it will be clear (although it may slip away for awhile the next. Back and forth). That is okay, that is to be human too. One day you will just feel it and know it deep down, "Oh, sitting is complete ... there is no place to go ... and so for all of life."

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jundo]

Now, the second posting ... this by someone else, one of our members who will be anonymous. However, it by someone who has seen quite a bit of the up and down in life, and much ugliness in the world. The person has also struggled with great sadness sometimes, doubt about Zazen, doubt about how broken the world is. Then, however, suddenly the following revelation.

I do not know if it will stay with the person forever. It may come and go, and dark days and judgments raise their head. But it is a powerful and sudden insight to cultivate so that it also comes to rest in the bones:

=================

Written some days ago:

For a few days now I am filled with a deep kind of sadness. Not the sadness we all know from the usual causes or reasons though. This is something new and started while I was sitting the other day. I suddenly felt a compassionate sorrow for everything and can't seem to shake it off now. Its all so hard to explain, I'm afraid to try. I cry (really, tears and all) or struggle not to when I look at...well, all and everything. [A grown man,] crying for no reason. Its stupid. [However] it does not feel like a bad thing, like something is wrong. This is a good thing somehow. It feels more like when seeing a newborn wriggle and open its eyes for the first time or something. All and everything around is struggling so hard, fighting to survive and exist for just a bit longer, myself included. ...

For a few days now this feeling comes and goes. What is it? It's practice related, that I am sure off. A new reality somehow and I don't like it one bit. Its upsetting. How can I possibly help, comfort or shelter the whole freekin' world? Its all me but also its not, all wrapped into one giant "everything" that struggles and is hurting in often so complicated ways. Its so sad but wonderfully beautiful at the same time.

Written some days later ...

After a few days sitting shikantaza with this the sadness evaporated. Must have been one of those things that sometimes comes from sitting.

I did come to a realisation though. We say there is nothing to add nor to take away but that is when we do sitting practice.There is an active component to our practice too. What remains after those silly tears, is a sense of compassion to all and oddly enough to everything. Somewhere deep inside the phrase "I vow to liberate them all" stands in a new light. In the world, this universe that I create, there must be no suffering. Can't be achieved but I can sure try work on that. My wife notices a change and so do the kids. Even the clothes I iron or the potatoes I peel for dinner, feel it. I feel it. Its all so very sacred and when I hold the same potato, t shirt or shoes in my hand, it FEELS sacred. It....well .....responds, resonates or even sings in a way. Same goes for people or any other living thing but different. You must think I really lost it now but I don't care, it's actually wonderful. Who is the one "singing"? It is I!!!! So strange, so wonderful its hard to discuss with anyone. Best not to. Of course things remain the same too in a way. Still grumpy in the morning, impatient at times, socially awkward and all the other things but its OK. Its all OK. Stuff like that doesn't change but the baseline is very different. It makes no difference but also it makes all the difference in the world! Sure hope it makes any sense to you?

[Byokan]

Thank you Jundo for highlighting these posts. That second one is breathtaking, it seems to me as Kannon seeing the cries of the world. Deep bows. I'm sorry to even post anything after that, it deserves silence.

But! Seishin-Do’s post caught my eye as well. I wanted to say something: Look, your answer is contained right there in your question!

The question:

how do I find that core deep trust and finally sit without think of sitting, without thinking of not attaining or chasing thoughts of am I doing this right, knowing there is no right or wrong good or bad

The answer:

committing to sit daily

There it is.

And:

this is something I still struggle with understanding

It is the thinking mind that struggles to understand. But true and deep understanding and trust will not be figured out with the mind. They will grow and be experienced wholly through practice. It’s like trying to understand love; you can not understand it from words or logic... you have to actually love someone or something to understand what love is. So, I think it’s ok if the mind is having trouble to make sense of it. In fact, these questions arise not despite sitting, but because of sitting, don't they? It's all part of it. The mind will always do what it does -- think, question, quantify, try to label and categorize things, try to “make sense”. With sincere practice and experience, a trust and understanding will be found that is deeper than anything the thinking mind could produce. Honor the question by continuing to sit; offer your sitting (and your questions) to all sentient beings. Your practice is perfect, as it is, questions, doubts, and all.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat today

[Jishin]

Sit all the way down.

That simple.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

Once again Byokan says it better than all my explainin'.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Seishin]

Jundo Byokan thank you so much for your comments which make much sense. I think that I'll take some time to digest what has been said before responding fully but on face value maybe I'm being too hard on myself. Time to reflect but again many thanks and deep bows to you both.

[Jundo]

SHORT VERSION:

Toby, I think what my verbose self was trying to say is ... hang in there, looks like you are doing fine, heading in a good way.

Sooner or later you will have an "ah ha", like a kid learning to ride a bike or get up on ice skates. Looks impossible, but easy as child's play.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Tairin]

I feel I have no wisdom to add to this discussion but I am compelled to say that it is exactly this sort of discussion and the collective wisdom of the Sangha with Jundo's guidance that makes TreeLeaf a special place. As a practitioner of only 18 months I understand Toby's question but i am also seeing truly that by repeated practise there are changes in me.

Thank you all!

Gassho
Warren
Sat today

[Seishin]

Hi folks

I've had some time to reflex and I think the issue for me is Jundo's third point

learn to rest in stillness and completeness

but not the chasing. Its difficult to articulate but I guess I am always tense and find it difficult to relax, so something deep in my subconscious is not letting go. Hey maybe I should blame Kapleau and Katsuku Sekida for messing with my head years ago, with all that grunting and groaning, with thoughts of kensho, now long gone by the way but maybe still lurking in the depths somewhere.

I'm happy sitting where I sit, don't worry about the time, the bell rings when its ready but as I say thinking often about how I'm sitting.

Its strange as there are times when I'm running that I feel that I've let go of everything. Thoughts come and go, I don't worry about breathing with my pace, adopting a shikantaza style approach which seems to reduce the effort I expend. But the feeling letting go is there. And a few times a week after a run, I've sat with a guided mindful breathing session to help me realize and be with the breath and frequently in these sessions I "find the zone". But this is yet to come to me on the zafu. Its like I need to do some reverse engineering. For example, I've been chopping branches and trees down this week for future firewood, treating it as samu and focusing fully on the task at hand. Lets face it you have to be in the moment when wielding a chainsaw! But again I've been just lost in the work just doing. Seems these experiences need to be taken to the cushion!

But as Byokan says I have answered my own question when I said

Perhaps I just need to sit some more...............

.

Pretty obvious really. Having started to learn the guitar again about 4 years back, I'd laugh at where I was after 5 months. The same after 22 years of practicing and teaching Karate, my belt slowly turning back to the colour it was when I was just a few months in to training. Crawl walk run.

So I just sit. Yes I'll try and believes its complete and all that it needs to be and if its not its not. Then a few years down the line I'll remember this and think what was all that about. Simples.

[Jakuden]

Thank you for the question Toby, and the wonderful answers from Jundo and Byokan (including the beautiful thoughts from anonymous)
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday (and let go a zillion times before the bell rang)


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[Kyonin]

Hi guys,

Lately I have been thinking about all the political and economical things we all are going through. At the same time I look at how the human world works and I see that we just have too much of everything. Too much fear, sadness, rhetoric, obesity, corruption, broken hearts, hunger... Even too much talk!

So having 20 to 50 minutes of silence in zazen feel like a nice little break from it all. While we sit we can look at all the ugliness with a calm mind and breathe easy. We allow things to flow and we morph into flow.

The ugly stuff will still be there when the bell rings. But at least we have a renew energy to keep on going.

You can fake it will you make it. Or you can just sit in faith and trust in the Buddha.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Jishin]

This is how you sit:



Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

And a few times a week after a run, I've sat with a guided mindful breathing session to help me realize and be with the breath and frequently in these sessions I "find the zone". But this is yet to come to me on the zafu. Its like I need to do some reverse engineering. For example, I've been chopping branches and trees down this week for future firewood, treating it as samu and focusing fully on the task at hand.

Ah, so you are placing demands and expectations on your sitting. You think that Shikantaza is to "find the zone" or to feel like you are "in the moment".

Or am I reading your comment wrong?

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Seishin]

Ah, so you are placing demands and expectations on your sitting. You think that Shikantaza is to "find the zone" or to feel like you are "in the moment".

Or am I reading your comment wrong?

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

Maybe I expressed that poorly, these are just moments of calmness and when to tension drops and there's some serenity. Effortless effort. I am I wrong to think these moments should happen in zazen then ?

[Jundo]

Maybe I expressed that poorly, these are just moments of calmness and when to tension drops and there's some serenity. Effortless effort. I am I wrong to think these moments should happen in zazen then ?

Hi Toby,

You would be wrong to think that these moments are the point of Zazen or what we are looking for. If they happen, then they happen. If they do not happen, then they do not happen.

In this way, Zazen is a radical and vibrant non-searching and resting much more profound that any passing feeling of being "in the zone" or feeling that one is focused "in the moment" for some activity.

Likewise, we do not run after or seek to "be peaceful", for Zazen is a 'Big P' Peace that is so peaceful that it transcends any small human feeling of being "peaceful" or feeling sometimes "not peaceful" in some setting, and is truly At Peace with feeling either or whatever life throws at one. That's True Peace! When feeling peaceful, just be that. When feeling not peaceful, just be at home as that ... and one may actually come to penetrate and live True Peace that it not dependent on the small ups and downs, quiet or chaos changes of this life and world.

So, sometimes we feel "in the Zone" and sometimes not at all, sometimes we are "in the moment" and sometimes not ... and in the way thus we discover the true 'Big Z' Zone (we sometimes say "Zoneless Zone" for it is so boundless and all inclusive of all life) and 'Big M' Moment (a Momentless Moment that holds timelessly all small ordinary earthly measures and moments of time).

Believe me, it is a much more profound All-Inclusive Serenity than just some passing calmness and serenity.

Does that make any sense?

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Seishin]

Hi Toby,

You would be wrong to think that these moments are the point of Zazen or what we are looking for. If they happen, then they happen. If they do not happen, then they do not happen.

In this way, Zazen is a radical and vibrant non-searching and resting much more profound that any passing feeling of being "in the zone" or feeling that one is focused "in the moment" for some activity.

Likewise, we do not run after or seek to "be peaceful", for Zazen is a 'Big P' Peace that is so peaceful that it transcends any small human feeling of being "peaceful" or feeling sometimes "not peaceful" in some setting, and is truly At Peace with feeling either or whatever life throws at one. That's True Peace! When feeling peaceful, just be that. When feeling not peaceful, just be at home as that ... and one may actually come to penetrate and live True Peace that it not dependent on the small ups and downs, quiet or chaos changes of this life and world.

So, sometimes we feel "in the Zone" and sometimes not at all, sometimes we are "in the moment" and sometimes not ... and in the way thus we discover the true 'Big Z' Zone (we sometimes say "Zoneless Zone" for it is so boundless and all inclusive of all life) and 'Big M' Moment (a Momentless Moment that holds timelessly all small ordinary earthly measures and moments of time).

Believe me, it is a much more profound All-Inclusive Serenity than just some passing calmness and serenity.

Does that make any sense?

Gassho, J

SatToday

Jundo

More a by product against the point of zazen I'd say but thinking some more and reading this reply, I guess my zazen is good zazen, not good or bad, just as it is, however it is. Que sera sera to fenchify that old Spanish song title.

Sat part of Zazenkai this morning with this in mind but also with a more relax body and mind. New perspective no perspective. Telling myself this was complete and all it needed to be. Thoughts came and went, questions arose. But as Byokan says the questions are there because we sit so I just acknowledged and accepted them.

So I think I can say the zazen is where it should. The marrow deep faith and trust will come in time I'm sure, I just need to have some,..........eh...........faith and trust..

At the end of the day all I can hope is this thread is useful to other novices encountering these same doubts.

And by the way the anonymous post was very moving before I get completely wrapped up in myself, so thanks for sharing.

[lorax]

Some times discussions on this core subject become complex trying to describe the un-describable. I can't offer much but a couple of observations. I started sitting in a natural environment, in a forest high on a volcano in Hawaii. My companions were the sounds of the forest, the birds, the winds, the insects. I was just part of it. After a time I stopped trying to follow the "rules" and just sat. Eventually I think it can be best described like learning to ride a road bike. All the gears, light weight frame, etc. wobbling down the road. Soon all the mechanics and balance issue are forgotten and you just ride.

The gift of zazen is you can take it with you where ever you go, no need for special zafu or zabutans really, no need for an Buddha statue, etc. This came home this weekend when I was in the hospital, alone, some 170 miles from home and my family, found a wide chair in the corner of the room, and sat.... such an opportunity to drop all the anxiety and stress that got me there....

So like the others have said, just sit, it will eventually become part of you.

SAT TODAY

[Jundo]

Hope you are healing Lorax.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[lorax]

I am. Learning to let go. They hauled me there early in the morning thinking it was a heart attack, turned out to be stress. Less news, less Face Book, accept the family situation... Thanks for the note.

SAT TODAY

[Jakuden]

Oh dear, I hope you feel better! It seems like I hear about this type of thing more and more, folks being admitted for apparent strokes, heart attacks, even comas and then finding out it was a stress event. A sign of the times Please take care. Sending you Metta.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Seishin]

Lorax

I hope you have a speedy recovery and I'm glad that this was not a physiological event but stress is just as bad. My wife suffers from a rare form of angina that can be triggered by anything or nothing, a kinda zen angina! Stress for her is a big no no which is why we left the Uk for rural France.

Much metta to you and your family and rest assured I will just sit. Being a life long motorcyclist/biker and Mr Pirsig being my most earliest recollection of anything zen, I know that "just ride" feeling oh so well and know I'll find it in zazen wherever I sit, I've just gotta be patient and let it happen when it happens.

Take care and look after yourself.

Cheers

Toby
STd

[Byokan]

Sending metta your way, Lorax!

Gassho
Byōkan
sat today

[Mp]

I am. Learning to let go. They hauled me there early in the morning thinking it was a heart attack, turned out to be stress. Less news, less Face Book, accept the family situation... Thanks for the note.

SAT TODAY

I hope you are ok Lorax ... I agree, less media junk and more positive things in life. Be well. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Getchi]

I hope you are ok Lorax ... I agree, less media junk and more positive things in life. Be well. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

This, coupled with Jundos instructions to "not strain, not attain, not know" and I'm a happy camp er.

[Joyo]

I am. Learning to let go. They hauled me there early in the morning thinking it was a heart attack, turned out to be stress. Less news, less Face Book, accept the family situation... Thanks for the note.

SAT TODAY

I hope you are feeling better. Thank you for the teaching. Much metta!

Jundo, thank you for highlighting this thread, lots of good teachings here.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Seishin]

Thought I'd come back to this thread, as my sitting has been very different over the last week or so. I've seem to have dropped the perpetual dialogue questioning how I'm sitting, all the frequent analysis. For days now I've just sat, my mind settling reasonably quicker, with no thoughts of right and wrong.

Yes the clouds come and go and I'll get snagged up and tangled now and then, forcibly having to tell myself to let go but on the whole the zafu seems a better place.

Just thought I'd share this, as this discussion seems to have helped me drop all the questioning and allow an acceptance of just sitting.

[Jundo]

For those who are not old movie fans ...

[MyoHo]

how very festive! Who and what made you post this classic bit? We used to have TCM in Holland and now that its pay TV and so gone, I miss it very mutch. There is something about these movies, no? Thank you Jundo!

Gassho

MyoHo

[Seishin]

Thank you Jundo. Being of a certain age I didn't even need to watch those clips. Timeless..........now where have I heard that before.