Dropping body and mind ?

[Ugrok]

Hello !

How do you guys understand this famous Dogen quote about "dropping body and mind" ?

I'm quite confused about it. In my practice i feel like "dropping the mind" is just letting the thoughts be and coming back to the posture and the sitting, again and again. This i quite "see".

But "dropping the body" escapes my understanding. How do you drop the body ? For me, bodily sensations are always there, sometimes scary, sometimes not, but how can you "drop the body" ?

I know Dogen says that in fact, the practice of zazen IS in itself the whole dropping of the body and mind. But for me it does not feel like that, hahaha...

Thanks in advance !

Gassho,

Uggy
Sat Today

[Seishin]

Uggy

From my very limited knowledge and thinking about past and recent experiences, there have been times when I just lose all consciousness of my body. Contact with the zafu zabuton and even my breath just seems to "drop" away. As for the mind it always seems to be there but I guest it drops when the sky is blue. Thats how I've always seen it from the limitation of the books I read years ago. I'm sure more wiser folk will have a better view or answer if indeed there is one.

[Jishin]

Original face, the one that drags your corpse around, beyond the Big Bang, god, beyond the sea and the wave, Mu!, sound of one hand clapping, who am I?, don't know, boundless beyond boundless, no Buddha, beyond mind, Heart Sutra,
etc etc...

I prefer Bodhidharma's don't know.

That said, chopping wood and fetching water for the benefit of others may work best.

Who knows?

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ongen]

Hi Uggy,

An honest question:
Why do you need to understand the dropping of body and mind?

Zen nun Chiyono wrote this poem:

In this way and that I tried to save the old pail
Since the bamboo strip was weakening and about to break
Until at last the bottom fell out.
No more water in the pail!
No more moon in the water!

Gassho
Ongen

Sat Today

[Ugrok]

Hi !

Because my body and mind make me suffer.

Gassho,

Uggy,
Sat today

[Jundo]

Hi Ugrok,

The above folks have provided some very wise and kind responses. Here is my simple description as I understand and have experienced.

The little personal "self" is filled with experiences in the mental world (mind) of this and that, based on categories and names which it affixes on the world which it experiences as apart from itself, judgments of aversion and attraction it imposes on all that, and a basic sense of separation and friction between it"self" and what it perceives as everything apart, "not the self." It fears for it own death, as you described in a separate thread.

The human body likewise has its needs and sensations, and a sense of separation and friction with all it considers outside and apart from the body. (We actually say "body-mind" as one thing, so it is probably best to say "body-mind dropped away.")

In Zazen, the hard mental borders and frictions of the mind which perceive "itself" and all the rest of the world as separate and in some tension, soften and sometimes fully drop away. Suddenly, there is but Wholeness. Likewise, sometimes the body can be forgotten, or there is a sense of harmony and oneness in which the body and everything "not the body" are no longer apart or in conflict. (Nishijima sometimes said it is like the body being "in the zone" of a runner, which he was in his youth). Life and death are no longer questions, as beginning and end are not the hard borders they once seemed. All is translucent, clear, unbroken, flowing whole ...

It is simply when the hard borders of self and other drop away, even labels and divisions like "self" and "other" drop away, and the war is over.

In an essay, I described it this way ... and Shikantaza as the lamp of realization ...

A VITAL REMINDER ON ZAZEN

Master Dogen often spoke about Zazen as "itself body-mind dropped off". I have this little way of explaining "Zazen is in itself body-mind dropped off":

Our small self, the body-mind, is always filled with countless desires ... the desire to be somewhere else, be getting somewhere, achieving some prize, some distant goal. Our body-mind is always judging this or that as somehow inadequate to what the body-mind wants, its likes and dislikes, needs, regrets and dreams.

Thus, when there is sat an instant of Zazen as wholeness in just sitting, the only place to be and act to do in that instant, in all of reality, to fulfill life as life ... the Buddha and all the Ancestors just sitting in that instant of sitting, no other thing to attain or which ever can be attained ... no other place to go or in need of going ... all holes filled, whether full or empty or in between ... all lack and excess resolved in that one sitting, with not one thing to add or take away ... judgments dropped away, "likes and dislikes" put aside ... nothing missing from Zazen (even when we might feel that "something is missing", for one can be fully content with the feeling of lack!) ... the sitting of Zazen and all life experienced as complete and whole as just the sitting of Zazen ... the entire universe manifesting itself on the Zafu at that moment ...

... in other words, when the "little self" is thereby put out of a job by the experience of "just sitting" as whole and complete with nothing more to be desired or needed ... then the hard borders between the "little self" and the "not the self" (which is usually being judged and "bumped into" and divided into pieces) thus naturally soften, fully fade away ... only the wholeness of the dance remaining ...

... then "Zazen is in itself body-mind dropped off".

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...inder-on-zazen

When the war is over, when the frictions and divisions are gone, and there is just interflowing Wholeness ... well, one knows.

In the Koan I posted today, Yamada Roshi had a lovely way to put it ...

... If the gate of the tower is opened ... It means that, everywhere and at all times, it is perfect and complete. ... It means to truly realize and grasp your own true self, the true universe. ... You realize that there is nothing missing.
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...NIMITY-Case-74

Gassho, J

SatToday

[themonk614]

Hi, Ugrok,

From my perspective, it is simply:

"To study the Way is to study the self.
To study the self is to forget the self.
To forget the self is to be enlightened by the ten thousand things."

-- Dogen Zenji

To forget the self is to allow the ego to drop away. To allow the ego to drop away is to realize our intimacy with all things. To realize our intimacy with all things is to realize that we are One with the universe.

Not only that we are One with the universe, but we are the universe!

In the words of the Sufi mystic, Rumi:

"You are not a drop in the ocean. You are the ocean in a drop."

Simply put: it is to sit with our inherent Wholeness...

Gassho,
Matt

SatToday

[Jundo]

Lovely.

[Ugrok]

Thanks for the answers !

Simple, but not easy, especially when things don't go our way. I don't know if Dogen speaks about us being the whole universe or other "lsd stuff" haha, it seemed to me that he did not reject our "little self", but instead invited to realize that little self and "big self" are not different in the end.

Gassho,

Uggy, sat today

[Jundo]

it seemed to me that he did not reject our "little self", but instead invited to realize that little self and "big self" are not different in the end.

That is correct. However, in this Practice it is very important to sometimes experience the softening of small self, as well as all the interpenetrating (for want of a better word as ultimately all is not two) of each and both at once as one. Dropping is also wonderful too.

In our way of Kensho, sometimes just experiencing the softening and interpentrating is enough as Kensho, rather than the very complete droppings that some Zen Teachers emphasize (especially in Kensho centered Zazen, as the "Three Pillars of Zen" book seemed to emphasize).
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post192066

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Shoki]

Ugrok,
"Not easy especially when things don't go our way." A big lightning bolt for me was when I realized how much time I spent suffering because things and people don't turn out the way I think they should. I can look at myself as a separate thing that other things bounce off of and I react positively or negatively from my self concept. I don't have time for that silly stuff anymore. Mind, body, stop with the dividing and categorizing already and just sit. (Don't forget to breathe).
Gassho
Sat Today
James

[MyoHo]

Hi guys,

dropping in a bit late but the question you ask Ugrok, is one that is often on my mind too. Keeping one eye on Jundo to see what he thinks of it, this is what I came up with so far:

Reading Dogen my first reaction is often " yeah sure, thats a lot of BS about something simple. Ill just take a good sleeping pill or a tall glass of Jonny Walker and Ill show you " dropping body and mind" allright! Just go to sleep is all. Well, no, not so simple at all since during sleep our mind goes wild telling stories and making plots or assumptions all coming from...dukha. Our desires and all measuring and choosing between this is good and this is not good. I want food, money, a career, be a better person or a better Zen student. Be a crack at everything! Always in the past or in the future.


So if its not to be found in sleep ( being unconcious in way) maybe we should be more like animals or a tree. They dont mind and live simple, straightforward lives not minding with seemingly " no mind" attitudes.
No big or small mind, Just this, perfectly in the right here and now. "MU!"

Wrong again right? Being an animal or a tree is ALL about desire and living according to instinct and lower, primitive urges. Slaves of the belly so to speak. That cant be it either. All about dukha again and leads from birth to death in a neverending cycle.

Maybe thats the thing. Dropping body and mind as described by Dogen can only be achieved while fully concious and awake, smack in the midle of all suffering. We humans are the ones who are or could be living a concious life. A form of existance that makes us able to sit and drop this body full of dukha and a mind full of self made suffering, as a concios act. Choosing to make this sacred efford to drop it. This is maybe why Dogen stresses us not to waste a single moment and at the same time talks about just going about our daily business and doing just that with " no mind" ? Dropping body and mind maybe is what we do the second our butt hits the zafu because you choose to do so, conciously and sit in the center of the wheel. Where there is silence in the middle of everything that goes on arround us. Like Jundo teaches us, not adding nor leaving anything out the Whole thing. A huge and precious gift that is not to be wasted.

Well, thats roughly my contribution to what all others above already said. Maybe you better listen to them he. ��

Gassho

MyoHo

sitting today

[Myosha]

Hello,

10+10+10 . . . the practice only stops with stopping the practice.

Reading a volume consumed with 'goals', comparisons, the "necessity" of duality, etc.

Just sit, dance, and laugh.

We're all bozos on this bus. ^^


Gassho
Myosha
sat today

[Jundo]

Hi guys,

dropping in a bit late but the question you ask Ugrok, is one that is often on my mind too. Keeping one eye on Jundo to see what he thinks of it, this is what I came up with so far:

Reading Dogen my first reaction is often " yeah sure, thats a lot of BS about something simple. Ill just take a good sleeping pill or a tall glass of Jonny Walker and Ill show you " dropping body and mind" allright! Just go to sleep is all. Well, no, not so simple at all since during sleep our mind goes wild telling stories and making plots or assumptions all coming from...dukha. Our desires and all measuring and choosing between this is good and this is not good. I want food, money, a career, be a better person or a better Zen student. Be a crack at everything! Always in the past or in the future.


So if its not to be found in sleep ( being unconcious in way) maybe we should be more like animals or a tree. They dont mind and live simple, straightforward lives not minding with seemingly " no mind" attitudes.
No big or small mind, Just this, perfectly in the right here and now. "MU!"

Wrong again right? Being an animal or a tree is ALL about desire and living according to instinct and lower, primitive urges. Slaves of the belly so to speak. That cant be it either. All about dukha again and leads from birth to death in a neverending cycle.

Maybe thats the thing. Dropping body and mind as described by Dogen can only be achieved while fully concious and awake, smack in the midle of all suffering. We humans are the ones who are or could be living a concious life. A form of existance that makes us able to sit and drop this body full of dukha and a mind full of self made suffering, as a concios act. Choosing to make this sacred efford to drop it. This is maybe why Dogen stresses us not to waste a single moment and at the same time talks about just going about our daily business and doing just that with " no mind" ? Dropping body and mind maybe is what we do the second our butt hits the zafu because you choose to do so, conciously and sit in the center of the wheel. Where there is silence in the middle of everything that goes on arround us. Like Jundo teaches us, not adding nor leaving anything out the Whole thing. A huge and precious gift that is not to be wasted.

Lovely. I feel this is right on the money. Not asleep or unconscious or in a trance (although sometimes one may experience moments of very deep concentrated Samadhi on the cushion, or other unusual mind states, that is not our main goal in this Practice) not dead or insentient like a stone ...

... but rather alert, awake, aware with the borders, separations and borders softened, sometimes fully dropped away. All Whole and interflowing, the war over.

Sometimes I like to say that we do discover our inner rock or tree or mountain in this Practice, as those just sit and do and be without mentally questioning or judging or regretting or worrying and all the mental hoo hah we add to life (and Dogen and some others said they too are "sentient beings") ... however, you are right that in reality, being a sentient human being is most unique and special, with all that gray matter between the ears both the source of the problem and the key to awakening.

Lovely.

By the way, if anyone would like to read more ramblings on what is "Kensho" (Seeing One's Nature) in Soto Zen, and the role of very deep passing "dropping" and other experiences, another old essay ... Nice place to visit, would not and could not live there ... not really even necessary so long as that softening and interflowing happens ...

These experiences can be light and deep and beyond light or deep. They can be most profound and enveloping .... HOWEVER, that does not matter because, generally in Soto, we consider all such experiences as passing scenery ... just a visit to the wonders of the Grand Canyon. One cannot stay there, as lovely as it is. Nice and educational place to visit ... would not, should not, could not truly live there. One can even live perfectly well never having visited the vast Canyon at all. The most important thing is to get on the bus, get on with the trip, get on with life from there. In our Soto Way, the WHOLE TRIP is Enlightenment when realized as such (that is the True "Kensho"!) ... not some momentary stop or passing scene or some final destination. ...

For Soto Folks, when we realize such ... every moment of the Buddha-Bus trip, the scenery out the windows (both what we encounter as beautiful and what appears ugly), the moments of good health and moments of passing illness, the highway, the seats and windows, all the other passengers on the Bus who appear to be riding with us, when we board and someday when we are let off ... the whole Trip ... is all the Buddha-Bus, all Enlightenment and Kensho, all the "destination" beyond "coming" or "going" or "getting there", when realized as such (Kensho). This ride is what we make it.

In a nutshell, a wondrous and important experience perhaps, but in "Zen Enlightenment" one comes to realize that even this ordinary, dusty, confining, sometimes joyous and sometimes ugly world is just as miraculous, wondrous, and "holy" as anything like that. ...


In the violence, ugliness, anger, greed and clutching, divisive thoughts and frictions of the world, this fact can be hidden, so hard to see. Thus, a key aspect of our Practice is to see and live free of the violence, anger, greed, clutching and all the rest to see this fact more clearly ... and even to realize it was there all along, though so hidden by the storm. ...

... The “ordinary and mundane” is never ordinary. Every moment and any encounter, each breeze and blade of grass is special, sacred, a jewel in Indra’s Net. Thus, I do not mean to lower the import of Kensho in the least, but just to RAISE UP all of life, and every instant of practice, to one and the same par with Kensho, for such is the wholeness, intimacy, unity that is KENSHO’d in KENSHO.
.
Realizing that fact – that the most “ordinary” is sacred and whole and unbroken – is at the heart of Kensho! Failing to see Kensho as extraordinary insight into the extra-ordinariness and sacredness of both the sacred and ordinary is not to see “Kensho.”

More here ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post134787

Gassho, J

[Mp]

Sometimes I like to say that we do discover our inner rock or tree or mountain in this Practice, as those just sit and do and be without mentally questioning or judging or regretting or worrying and all the mental hoo hah we add to life (and Dogen and some others said they too are "sentient beings") ... however, you are right that in reality, being a sentient human being is most unique and special, with all that gray matter between the ears both the source of the problem and the key to awakening.

Lovely.

I like this Jundo ... thank you!

And thank you all, some great and wise reflections here. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[themonk614]

These experiences can be light and deep and beyond light or deep. They can be most profound and enveloping .... HOWEVER, that does not matter because, generally in Soto, we consider all such experiences as passing scenery ... just a visit to the wonders of the Grand Canyon. One cannot stay there, as lovely as it is. Nice and educational place to visit ... would not, should not, could not truly live there. One can even live perfectly well never having visited the vast Canyon at all. The most important thing is to get on the bus, get on with the trip, get on with life from there. In our Soto Way, the WHOLE TRIP is Enlightenment when realized as such (that is the True "Kensho"!) ... not some momentary stop or passing scene or some final destination. ...

For Soto Folks, when we realize such ... every moment of the Buddha-Bus trip, the scenery out the windows (both what we encounter as beautiful and what appears ugly), the moments of good health and moments of passing illness, the highway, the seats and windows, all the other passengers on the Bus who appear to be riding with us, when we board and someday when we are let off ... the whole Trip ... is all the Buddha-Bus, all Enlightenment and Kensho, all the "destination" beyond "coming" or "going" or "getting there", when realized as such (Kensho). This ride is what we make it.

In a nutshell, a wondrous and important experience perhaps, but in "Zen Enlightenment" one comes to realize that even this ordinary, dusty, confining, sometimes joyous and sometimes ugly world is just as miraculous, wondrous, and "holy" as anything like that. ...


In the violence, ugliness, anger, greed and clutching, divisive thoughts and frictions of the world, this fact can be hidden, so hard to see. Thus, a key aspect of our Practice is to see and live free of the violence, anger, greed, clutching and all the rest to see this fact more clearly ... and even to realize it was there all along, though so hidden by the storm. ...

... The “ordinary and mundane” is never ordinary. Every moment and any encounter, each breeze and blade of grass is special, sacred, a jewel in Indra’s Net. Thus, I do not mean to lower the import of Kensho in the least, but just to RAISE UP all of life, and every instant of practice, to one and the same par with Kensho, for such is the wholeness, intimacy, unity that is KENSHO’d in KENSHO.
.
Realizing that fact – that the most “ordinary” is sacred and whole and unbroken – is at the heart of Kensho! Failing to see Kensho as extraordinary insight into the extra-ordinariness and sacredness of both the sacred and ordinary is not to see “Kensho.”

Beautiful!

This reminds me of the dialogue between Joshu and Nansen in Case 19 of The Gateless Gate:

Joshu: What is the Way?

Nansen: The ordinary mind is the Way.

Yamada Koun Roshi comments:

"Ordinary mind, what is that? It is nothing but our ordinary consciousness, our ordinary everyday life. It is just getting up, washing your face, eating breakfast, going to work, walking, running, laughing, crying; the leaves on the trees, the flowers in the field, whether white, red, or purple; it is birth, it is death. That is the Way. We do not even have to use the word 'mind.' The ordinary is the Way!"

Thank you for sharing, Jundo

Gassho,
Matt

SatToday

[JohnsonCM]

To me, dropping body and mind is saying to drop your ideas of them. Just be, just exist. Your arm doesn't itch, you ARE itch! Until you aren't. And anyway, what itch? What is there to itch? All these questions and statements have one prerequisite: you have to have separated yourself. You have separated your being into 'body' and 'mind'. Into 'itchy' and 'not itchy'. Into 'something' and 'everything else'. Dropping body and mind drops the separation of 'you' from 'other '.

[Ugrok]

This came up also in the end of practice this morning... When you grab something with your mind, it becomes possible for it to die : for example, if you "mindgrab" your outbreathe, then as you do it your outbreathe disappeared, is gone forever with the thought of it. But when you don't grab anything, there is no death nor life.

The problem i find behind this is fear. Because fear forces me to grab things with my mind ; for example, for me, an unexplainable pain or sensation in my body leads to fear, it's a reflex, and then i grab the object of fear and can't let it go, thus provoking even more fear, etc etc. It's a vicious cycle. I guess "don't mindgrab the fear itself" could be an answer.

Gassho,

Uggy
Sat Today "not mindgrabbing"

[Jundo]

This came up also in the end of practice this morning... When you grab something with your mind, it becomes possible for it to die : for example, if you "mindgrab" your outbreathe, then as you do it your outbreathe disappeared, is gone forever with the thought of it. But when you don't grab anything, there is no death nor life.

The problem i find behind this is fear. Because fear forces me to grab things with my mind ; for example, for me, an unexplainable pain or sensation in my body leads to fear, it's a reflex, and then i grab the object of fear and can't let it go, thus provoking even more fear, etc etc. It's a vicious cycle. I guess "don't mindgrab the fear itself" could be an answer.

Gassho,

Uggy
Sat Today "not mindgrabbing"

When I was 8, my uncle tried to teach me swimming. I was so scared, so I grabbed him (he must have had black and blue marks), the side of the pool, my little swim balloon. I guess I was afraid of drowning (in probably one meter of water!)

Now, I relax and just swim. Nothing to grab or fear, water and swimmer as one.

Please enjoy the pool, the water is lovely.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Kyonin]

Hi Ugrok,

In my tiny comprehension, to drop body and mind just means go sit. If your practice is steady and with discipline there will come a time when you are no longer the body and mind.

And as for fears... Fears are just horror movies we project in our minds. And they are just thoughts and ideas. When we sit we drop thoughts and ideas and then fears seem less powerful.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Ugrok]

And as for fears... Fears are just horror movies we project in our minds. And they are just thoughts and ideas. When we sit we drop thoughts and ideas and then fears seem less powerful.

Hello Kyonin !

Well for me fears is not only thoughts and ideas, it's also made of bodily sensations. Tight chest, tight throat, feelings in the stomach area, etc. But i guess it's not something separate from thoughts and ideas, somehow...

Gassho,

Uggy

Sat Today

[Oheso]

When I was 8, my uncle tried to teach me swimming. I was so scared, so I grabbed him (he must have had black and blue marks), the side of the pool, my little swim balloon. I guess I was afraid of drowning (in probably one meter of water!)

Now, I relax and just swim. Nothing to grab or fear, water and swimmer as one.

I can also remember my father teaching me to swim when I was still afraid of the water. I think at that time it came down to just trusting. Trusting him, trusting my buoyancy in the water and my ability to manipulate my body, trusting the apparent ease of others safely enjoying the pool. in the broad daylight even.
it reminds me a little of the psycho-game of letting yourself fall backwards into the arms of another, behind you.

I used to be afraid I might be struck with enlightenment while meditating, like I might attract lightning or something-

gassho, 0
who today, sat

[Mp]

Hello Kyonin !

Well for me fears is not only thoughts and ideas, it's also made of bodily sensations. Tight chest, tight throat, feelings in the stomach area, etc. But i guess it's not something separate from thoughts and ideas, somehow...

Gassho,

Uggy

Sat Today

Hello Ugrok,

Yes you are correct that these bodily sensations may arise during fear, that being said, these bodily sensations are a byproduct of your mind/thoughts.

When we see these thoughts just as they are, as mind theatre, as a form of resistance we can then just allow them to be, to fall away, and be present with life in all its wonder. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jundo]

Hello Kyonin !

Well for me fears is not only thoughts and ideas, it's also made of bodily sensations. Tight chest, tight throat, feelings in the stomach area, etc. But i guess it's not something separate from thoughts and ideas, somehow...

Gassho,

Uggy

Sat Today

You should speak to an anxiety trained psychologist about this, as I doubt it is just Zazen. It is likely an issue otherwise existing in you that is otherwise arising in the quiet moment of Zazen. I would be surprised if that is the only time it is coming up. Are there other triggers?

As I wrote you elsewhere, you need to approach the problem from all fronts.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Ugrok]

Oh no, it's not zazen that triggers it, sorry if i sounded like i meant it was zazen ! In fact sitting zazen is one of the moments of relief !
It's good old generalized anxiety, which i know very well about and manifests on and off during the day. Of course if i sit with anxiety, zazen is anxious as well. Most of the things you can read nowadays about anxiety "treatment" really fits well with zazen : it's all about not struggling against it, not fighting, but accepting and being with it, letting it run its course.

I'm just looking for a way to deal with this, in and out of zazen, and i'm kind of using zazen to explore how this thing works... And also, if i'm honest, as a solution to this problem. After all, it is said that we can end suffering, so that's what i try to do.

Gassho,

Uggy
Sat Today

[JohnsonCM]

I can relate to anxiety. I have generalized anxiety disorder myself. Definitely see someone about it, it can get out of hand without help. But what helps me is to realize that the anxiety is a response from my body, like asthma. Asthma is an exaggerated immune response from the lungs in response to a threat. Nothing you can do but manage the symptoms, avoid triggers, and do what you can. The rest will be what it will be. Same with anxiety, really. Do what you can and thats all you can do. Now fear comes from not wanting pain (physical, emotional, spiritual) or death. Pain is a fact of life, without it we would have no frame of reference for the good stuff. It also ends, either in healing or in death. Death, well....not really much to do about that. Its a fact of like that we aren't getting out of it alive. All you can do is what you can do, and try to enjoy what you can enjoy. Every moment is a gift, and every trial teaches us.

[Jakudo]

I've always thought that "dropping body and mind" is the description of our original body/mind, sometimes experienced during Zazen. It seems, to me at least, at some point in life we convince ourselves, falsely, that body and mind are separate entities. And sometimes, during Zazen, we unlearn this and experience once again original body/mind. Or not....
yep, sat today.

[Ugrok]

Thanks a lot Johnson. Well i've been in and out of those GAD anxiety periods for all my life since i was 7 or 8, been in therapy for years, took meds, read almost everything about it, and begun practicing zazen because of it. Those last two years were almost symptom free, without any meds or external help or, to be more precise, they did not disturb me at all anymore, and i thought i had finally nailed it and i could live a life free from anxiety. Then wham, it started again in november.

Now i know i have all the tools to get out of it, as i did it before ; i know it's possible to get out of it ; i know how to behave (ie not stopping doing anything because of it) ; but still it's so frustrating to go through that stupid thing again, i thought that was behind me. My mistake, i think, was to make zazen and all the things i did to have a "normal" life a protection against anxiety. It was as if "as long as i was practicing zazen, i'll be anxiety free". Which i already knew was false, but still i somewhere believed it.

Now it's kind of falling apart. Guess it's time to accept that no, i'm not a superhuman with superpowers and that i have problems too, as everyone else.

Right now anxiety just manifests in the inability to take a deep breathe, which is scary but manageable (been to the doc, i'm in perfect health). It does not make me hide at home, i don't let it take over my life as i did before : i run, i practice aikido, i work, all as normal. It's just so annoying to always be obsessed by stupid stuff like your own breathing, as the more you obsess, the more the symptom increases, and you cannot just decide not to obsess !

That's why i'm really interested in dropping body-mind ; i'm so tired of being dragged and played a fool by it !

Gassho,

Ugrok
Sat Today

[Jishin]

Hello Kyonin !

Well for me fears is not only thoughts and ideas, it's also made of bodily sensations. Tight chest, tight throat, feelings in the stomach area, etc. But i guess it's not something separate from thoughts and ideas, somehow...

Gassho,

Uggy

Sat Today

You should speak to an anxiety trained psychologist about this, as I doubt it is just Zazen. It is likely an issue otherwise existing in you that is otherwise arising in the quiet moment of Zazen. I would be surprised if that is the only time it is coming up. Are there other triggers?

As I wrote you elsewhere, you need to approach the problem from all fronts.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Oh no, it's not zazen that triggers it, sorry if i sounded like i meant it was zazen ! In fact sitting zazen is one of the moments of relief !
It's good old generalized anxiety, which i know very well about and manifests on and off during the day. Of course if i sit with anxiety, zazen is anxious as well. Most of the things you can read nowadays about anxiety "treatment" really fits well with zazen : it's all about not struggling against it, not fighting, but accepting and being with it, letting it run its course.

I'm just looking for a way to deal with this, in and out of zazen, and i'm kind of using zazen to explore how this thing works... And also, if i'm honest, as a solution to this problem. After all, it is said that we can end suffering, so that's what i try to do.

Gassho,

Uggy
Sat Today

IMG_0040.PNG

IMG_0041.PNG

In essence, from a biological perspective, anything that raises GABA and Serotonin may help with anxiety.

There are a lot of good therapies for anxiety. You should talk to a therapist for these.

In the USA, a good place to start is to see a psychiatrist. Here, psychiatrists are trained to do therapy but usually don't. They focus on psychopharmacology and then refer/defer to therapists to address the therapy component of treatment.

I have been able to treat my generalized anxiety very well with Shikantaza. I have residual difficulties with PTSD and OCD in spite of sitting daily, but I can live with these difficulties without medications for them.

In the case of mood disorders, you should NEVER NEVER NEVER presume that
Shikantaza is enough to address mood disorders without talking to your psychiatrist/psychologist first. Mood disorders can be lethal.

That said, I find Shikantaza extremely beneficial for my mood difficulties. I use it in conjunction with mood medications as prescribed by my physician.

Finally, one sits with no attaining with nothing to attain. Thus, the goal of Shikantaza is not to treat any mental conditions but it just happens to be a side effect of sitting.

My 2 cents.

I hope this helps.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ugrok]

Hello Jishin,

Thanks for the information, even if, as you might have read in the post before yours, i know this stuff about anxiety for a long time ! I'm not a firm believer in medication, i know in the US there is a strong "chemical" culture around psychological issues ; it does not quite fit with my experience with anxiety, nor with how i see life and human beings. In the past i went several times from "total anxiety for months" to "free of symptoms for years" without any medication. And most CBT therapists (i've seen a few), for example, even if they do sometimes prescribe medication to alleviate the symptoms while you are learning how to deal with them, really advocate that you should not rely on medication to treat anxiety (i'm not talking about mood disorders or PTSD which i don't know very well).

The problem with generalized anxiety is that the more we try to resist it, the worse it gets - which is why medication is not a long term solution. The more we try to get out of it, the more we sink. It's like quicksands. It makes sense : anxiety symptoms are a reflex reaction from our body to protect us from an imaginary danger (which can be a suppressed emotion) ; if we begin to fear the symptoms of the protection mechanism itself, then it just reinforces itself, the symptoms increase, we fear them even more, etc. etc., and we enter a vicious cycle... As i found out during my "anxious career" (hahah), "techniques" or "sayings" don't work because the more you have the goal to get rid of anxiety, the more it grows : of course, we are fighting our own defense system ! It's a fight we cannot win and this fight has to be abandoned. The problem is that, since it feels so bad and since most anxiety sufferers are somehow typical control freaks, our natural reflex is to try to get rid of it by all means, when the way out is the complete opposite : inviting the symptoms and staying with them without rejection !

This is why lots of anxiety therapists now (well, it started in the 70's with the works of Claire Weekes but there is a renewed interest in those therapies) work with acceptance therapies (basically : understand what's happening and leave it alone and live your life). And zazen, and dropping body and mind, fit right into it : when you stop resisting, then you stop reinforcing the cycle. Basically, you stop fearing the fear, you let fear be fear, and it runs its course naturally.

Which is somehow right into the subject of dropping "body and mind", hahah !

Gassho,

Uggy

Sat today

[Jishin]

Go to a psychiatrist. They are trained in psychopharmacology and psychotherapy. They can help you decide which modality of treatment is right for you. One, the other or both.

Medications restore normal levels of neurotransmitters. They do not add to normal levels. Not like drugs of abuse where chemicals are added to normal levels.

Talk to a pro.

My 2 cants.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ugrok]

Hehe, I am already seeing one, have been since "it" started again a few months ago.

But thanks for the advice/concern anyway !

Gassho,
Uggy,
Sat Today

[Jakuden]

Thanks a lot Johnson. Well i've been in and out of those GAD anxiety periods for all my life since i was 7 or 8, been in therapy for years, took meds, read almost everything about it, and begun practicing zazen because of it. Those last two years were almost symptom free, without any meds or external help or, to be more precise, they did not disturb me at all anymore, and i thought i had finally nailed it and i could live a life free from anxiety. Then wham, it started again in november.

Now i know i have all the tools to get out of it, as i did it before ; i know it's possible to get out of it ; i know how to behave (ie not stopping doing anything because of it) ; but still it's so frustrating to go through that stupid thing again, i thought that was behind me. My mistake, i think, was to make zazen and all the things i did to have a "normal" life a protection against anxiety. It was as if "as long as i was practicing zazen, i'll be anxiety free". Which i already knew was false, but still i somewhere believed it.

Now it's kind of falling apart. Guess it's time to accept that no, i'm not a superhuman with superpowers and that i have problems too, as everyone else.

Right now anxiety just manifests in the inability to take a deep breathe, which is scary but manageable (been to the doc, i'm in perfect health). It does not make me hide at home, i don't let it take over my life as i did before : i run, i practice aikido, i work, all as normal. It's just so annoying to always be obsessed by stupid stuff like your own breathing, as the more you obsess, the more the symptom increases, and you cannot just decide not to obsess !

That's why i'm really interested in dropping body-mind ; i'm so tired of being dragged and played a fool by it !

Gassho,

Ugrok
Sat Today

No real advice here Uggy but I can tell you I relate to your struggles. I have anxiety and depression, in my case it has been the depression part that was the biggest struggle from a young age. I have taken to considering myself "in remission" rather than done with them altogether, so I don't get too attached to the idea that I will never have symptoms again... if you get too attached to the idea that they will be gone forever, that just adds more angst when they come around and knock on the door. Anxiety is a regular visitor at my door, and while I don't invite it in for tea anymore, I also don't try to chase it away. I either stay present with just the feeling, or allow myself to become occupied with helping others if I can. And in a worst case scenario, I muddle through until I can find time to go off and sit or chant, and don't give in to the fear that I can't make it through until then. As you said, the more you resist it the worse it gets!
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday

[Kaishin]

Hello Jishin,

Thanks for the information, even if, as you might have read in the post before yours, i know this stuff about anxiety for a long time ! I'm not a firm believer in medication, i know in the US there is a strong "chemical" culture around psychological issues ; it does not quite fit with my experience with anxiety, nor with how i see life and human beings. In the past i went several times from "total anxiety for months" to "free of symptoms for years" without any medication. And most CBT therapists (i've seen a few), for example, even if they do sometimes prescribe medication to alleviate the symptoms while you are learning how to deal with them, really advocate that you should not rely on medication to treat anxiety (i'm not talking about mood disorders or PTSD which i don't know very well).

The problem with generalized anxiety is that the more we try to resist it, the worse it gets - which is why medication is not a long term solution. The more we try to get out of it, the more we sink. It's like quicksands. It makes sense : anxiety symptoms are a reflex reaction from our body to protect us from an imaginary danger (which can be a suppressed emotion) ; if we begin to fear the symptoms of the protection mechanism itself, then it just reinforces itself, the symptoms increase, we fear them even more, etc. etc., and we enter a vicious cycle... As i found out during my "anxious career" (hahah), "techniques" or "sayings" don't work because the more you have the goal to get rid of anxiety, the more it grows : of course, we are fighting our own defense system ! It's a fight we cannot win and this fight has to be abandoned. The problem is that, since it feels so bad and since most anxiety sufferers are somehow typical control freaks, our natural reflex is to try to get rid of it by all means, when the way out is the complete opposite : inviting the symptoms and staying with them without rejection !

This is why lots of anxiety therapists now (well, it started in the 70's with the works of Claire Weekes but there is a renewed interest in those therapies) work with acceptance therapies (basically : understand what's happening and leave it alone and live your life). And zazen, and dropping body and mind, fit right into it : when you stop resisting, then you stop reinforcing the cycle. Basically, you stop fearing the fear, you let fear be fear, and it runs its course naturally.

Which is somehow right into the subject of dropping "body and mind", hahah !

Gassho,

Uggy

Sat today

Everyone is different, but I think the anti-medication culture is just as dangerous as the over-medicated culture.

I would be dead without the treatment I receive(d), including SSRI anti-anxiety Rx. I have been taking it for over 6 years and expect to continue for the rest of my life (in different forms perhaps). It has improved my quality of life 1000000000%. More than that really, I was basically non-functional.

There is TOO much fear of medication. You must find a good doctor, and trust results. You are not defective if you are on Rx.

Don't expect Zen to "cure" you.

108 bows to Buddha. 108 bows to SSRIs. 108 bows to benzodiazepines.

[Ugrok]

Hello ! Glad that you found your solution !

I agree that being blindly "anti medication" is not a good thing.

I disagree about zazen. IT CURES EVERYTHING ! LET ME BELIEVE !

Ahahaha !

Gassho,
Uggy
Sat today

[Jundo]

I disagree about zazen. IT CURES EVERYTHING ! LET ME BELIEVE !

Even I don't believe that!

Zazen teaches us that there is nothing in need of fixing from the start, no teeth and nothing to bite.

Yet, when one has a bad aching tooth, one goes to a dentist ... not a Zen Master or the Zafu.

Gassho, J

SatToday, dental checkup next week

[Jishin]

Hello ! Glad that you found your solution !

I agree that being blindly "anti medication" is not a good thing.

I disagree about zazen. IT CURES EVERYTHING ! LET ME BELIEVE !

Ahahaha !

Gassho,
Uggy
Sat today

Zazen awakens you to the fact that there are pharmaceutical grade medications that underwent millions/billions of dollars of testing on humans before made available to physicians who trained 24 years before being able to prescribe them.

What has your physician recommended to you regarding the appropriate treatment for your conditions and are you compliant with the treatment recommendations?

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Ugrok]

Zazen awakens you to the fact that there are pharmaceutical grade medications that underwent millions/billions of dollars of testing on humans before made available to physicians who trained 24 years before being able to prescribe them.

Hello !


Haha, well, what i quoted above is exactly the kind of argument that can also be used against medication (btw this is one of the most frequent debate / flame war on internet forums - maybe we are doing "non skillfull" talking right now cause i doubt anything good will come out of it)... I don't know about the US, but here in France, pharmaceuticals companies OWN health. That means that they have the indirect power, for example, to name new diseases. They invite doctors (i have a few very close relatives that are doctors) regularly to meetings (preferably in some cool place). In the US, i think the DSM 4, for example, which is the "bible" of mental disorders, is a good example of the "mental medicalisation" of our societies. It is subject to lots of huge debates here. The interest of "billions of dollars of investment" is in making everything a disease, and "mental diseases" are perfect for this. If anyone reads the DSM 4, he finds that he has 30 mental illnesses. I think there are real arguments for being dubious about medication and "common mental health problems" - by that i mean common anxiety disorders, mild depression, and so on. Not to mention the plethora of articles that show that in most frequent and mild cases of anxiety or depression - which is the majority of what doctors see, pills don't give a better result than exercising.

On the other hand, medication is a blessing when you go through a crisis or when you have a really serious mental condition like schizophrenia or psychotic states ; benzos can really help in case of strong anxiety ; antidepressants allow people who could not work anymore, to come back in social life, etc. I'm not denying that medication is a useful tool ; just saying that in our societies it has become "the" answer to every problem we have, not only in mental health but also in lots of other health issues (for example, it has been shown than most of the medication for when you have a "cold" is totally useless - yet it sells by billions). And it's really convenient : you put labels on people, lots of them, and you make sure they stay in those labels, and they all have problems but thanks to medication society continues to work flawlessly. Well, there are 40 millions americans (6%) who suffer from anxiety disorders. Maybe this proves that this approach does not work and that the problem maybe is in the way that people are treated and raised. But it's another debate.

My psychiatrist (thanks for your concern by the way, even if that's kind of an intrusive question you're asking, i know it comes from the heart) prescribed me benzos for hard anxiety moments, and said to me that i could use them punctually when i felt bad ; he said that, otherwise, i had all the tools to deal with this. I follow his advice, yes.

In the end, as said beforee in the conversation, the point is finding what works for you ; "whatever works", as Woody Allen titled one of his movies !

PS : there is a really good book from a scientist who worked on the first antidepressants, it's called "the molecules of emotion". It's really interesting, especially the end. A good read for anyone interested in those questions : https://www.amazon.com/Molecules-Emo.../dp/0684846349.

PPS : damn, sorry, the thread has become a good example of what "dropping body and mind" IS NOT ! Haha !

Gassho,

Uggy

Sat today

[Myosha]

Hey Uggy,

Thank you for the book link.

"Reality - What a concept!" R. Williams (consult the pro. who prescribed because stopping can be deadly).

MERRY HAPPY NEW YEAR to all!


Gassho
Myosha
sat today

[Jishin]

Hello !


Haha, well, what i quoted above is exactly the kind of argument that can also be used against medication (btw this is one of the most frequent debate / flame war on internet forums - maybe we are doing "non skillfull" talking right now cause i doubt anything good will come out of it)... I don't know about the US, but here in France, pharmaceuticals companies OWN health. That means that they have the indirect power, for example, to name new diseases. They invite doctors (i have a few very close relatives that are doctors) regularly to meetings (preferably in some cool place). In the US, i think the DSM 4, for example, which is the "bible" of mental disorders, is a good example of the "mental medicalisation" of our societies. It is subject to lots of huge debates here. The interest of "billions of dollars of investment" is in making everything a disease, and "mental diseases" are perfect for this. If anyone reads the DSM 4, he finds that he has 30 mental illnesses. I think there are real arguments for being dubious about medication and "common mental health problems" - by that i mean common anxiety disorders, mild depression, and so on. Not to mention the plethora of articles that show that in most frequent and mild cases of anxiety or depression - which is the majority of what doctors see, pills don't give a better result than exercising.

On the other hand, medication is a blessing when you go through a crisis or when you have a really serious mental condition like schizophrenia or psychotic states ; benzos can really help in case of strong anxiety ; antidepressants allow people who could not work anymore, to come back in social life, etc. I'm not denying that medication is a useful tool ; just saying that in our societies it has become "the" answer to every problem we have, not only in mental health but also in lots of other health issues (for example, it has been shown than most of the medication for when you have a "cold" is totally useless - yet it sells by billions). And it's really convenient : you put labels on people, lots of them, and you make sure they stay in those labels, and they all have problems but thanks to medication society continues to work flawlessly. Well, there are 40 millions americans (6%) who suffer from anxiety disorders. Maybe this proves that this approach does not work and that the problem maybe is in the way that people are treated and raised. But it's another debate.

My psychiatrist (thanks for your concern by the way, even if that's kind of an intrusive question you're asking, i know it comes from the heart) prescribed me benzos for hard anxiety moments, and said to me that i could use them punctually when i felt bad ; he said that, otherwise, i had all the tools to deal with this. I follow his advice, yes.

In the end, as said beforee in the conversation, the point is finding what works for you ; "whatever works", as Woody Allen titled one of his movies !

PS : there is a really good book from a scientist who worked on the first antidepressants, it's called "the molecules of emotion". It's really interesting, especially the end. A good read for anyone interested in those questions : https://www.amazon.com/Molecules-Emo.../dp/0684846349.

PPS : damn, sorry, the thread has become a good example of what "dropping body and mind" IS NOT ! Haha !

Gassho,

Uggy

Sat today

When you can't see...

When you can't hear...

When you can't smell...

When you can't touch...

When you lack consciousness..

If you are not chanting the Heart Sutra,

Were do you go?

Chest pain? GERD, Panic attack, heart attack, generalized anxiety?

Can't breathe? Obstruction of the airway, asthma, pneumonia, panic attack, generalized anxiety?

Depressed? Electrolyte imbalance, low/high thyroid, brain tumor, headache, depression?

Abdominal pain? Appendicitis, cancer?

Leg pain? Strain, sprain, closed fracture, open fracture or just Zazen pains?



Cut the crap Uggy.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Ugrok]

Exactly !

Thousands bows,

Uggy
Sat today

[Jishin]

Exactly !

Thousands bows,

Uggy
Sat today

GAD Diagnostic Criteria:

All of the below features must be present in order to make a proper diagnosis of GAD:

Excessive anxiety and worry, occurring more days than not for at least 6 months, concerning a number of events;
The individual finds it difficult to control the worry;
The anxiety and worry are associated with at least three of the following six symptoms (only one item required in children):
Restlessness, feeling keyed up or on edge.
Being easily fatigued
Difficulty concentrating
Irritability
Muscle tension
Sleep disturbance
The anxiety, worry or physical symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment in important areas of functioning;
The disturbance is not due to the physiological effects of a substance or medical condition;

The disturbance is not better explained by another medical disorder (American Psychiatric Association, 2013).

Psychiatric difficulties are diagnoses of exclusion. You cannot be a psychiatrist without being a physician who is licensed to prescribe/operate/perform therapy. A psychiatrist can help you with treating your conditions, be it medical, surgical or psychiatric (psychopharmacology/psychotherapy) by way of referral or treating the condition directly.

Please listen to your physician.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Ugrok]

I'm sorry, i don't understand your point. I think you don't read my posts (and we are totally derailing the topic), so i'll stop answering after this one.

1 - I know i have an anxiety issue ! I don't know if that's what you mean by that list of "official" symptoms (of which i only check for 2, yay - but only because it is an incomplete list), but I'm not denying it - as i wrote several times, it has been on and off with me during my whole life ! This is, again, a subject i know very well - i've been studying it for years.
2 - As i told you, i'm following my psychiatrist's advice !

That's why i don't understand what you mean by that last post ?

Gassho,

Uggy,

Sat today

[Jishin]

I'm sorry, i don't understand your point. I think you don't read my posts (and we are totally derailing the topic), so i'll stop answering after this one.

1 - I know i have an anxiety issue ! I don't know if that's what you mean by that list of "official" symptoms (of which i only check for 2, yay - but only because it is an incomplete list), but I'm not denying it - as i wrote several times, it has been on and off with me during my whole life ! This is, again, a subject i know very well - i've been studying it for years.
2 - As i told you, i'm following my psychiatrist's advice !

That's why i don't understand what you mean by that last post ?

Gassho,

Uggy,

Sat today

Hi Ugrok,

I am glad that you are following your psychiatrist's advice.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[JimH]

Hi, Ugrok!

I'm a bit of a latecomer to this conversation, but I look at it this way: "mind and body dropping away" is just unfocusing on things when you enter the zazen state. This is not just sitting on the zafu, but doing samu, working in general, walking meditation, etc. When you slow down and relax focus on what is going on around you and observe what is going on inside you, you start to see mind and body drop away.

"Dropping away" is, in my opinion, when you aren't focusing on these things, and you let them take care of themselves for a short time. In zazen, you are not consciously thinking about your body or mind, so they can "drop off". Kind of like how I sometimes forget where my sunglasses are, and they are sitting on top of my head!

I always visualize this quote when I think about letting go of mind and body:

“Come to the edge," he said.
"We can't, we're afraid!" they responded.
"Come to the edge," he said.
"We can't, We will fall!" they responded.
"Come to the edge," he said.
And so they came.
And he pushed them.
And they flew.”


― Guillaume Apollinaire

Gassho--

--JimH (SatToday!)

[Jundo]

Jim, something rang very right and true in your way of expressing this.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Ryumon]

I'm late to this thread, which has taken several detours. But I have thought about Dogen' idea of dropping mind and body. To me it seems like the borders that surround my "self," and separate "me" from what is around me dissolve. That time itself dissolves and becomes fluid. All this whole everything is just as it was. Nothing special.

Gasho,

Kirk

#sattoday

[Ernstguitar]

Dear Ugrok,

The problem i find behind this is fear. Because fear forces me to grab things with my mind ; for example, for me, an unexplainable pain or sensation in my body leads to fear, it's a reflex, and then i grab the object of fear and can't let it go, thus provoking even more fear, etc etc. It's a vicious cycle. I guess "don't mindgrab the fear itself" could be an answer.

First I have to say, that I am not a nativ american speaker. And I want to give you a good intended answer (I write it, becourse the text sometimes doesn´t show it so clear)


I am working for 20 years as a psychotherapist.
I do zazen since 2009.
I read Dogen and many Zen-books.
And I do try to bring all that together. I want to agree on your idea of "zazen helps me with everything".
It is not very hard to understand, that not the SELF has a poblem. It is your ego and your "body".
But that is not worth to write a reply.
In my very simple mind- set you are right. The SELF cannot be destroyed, neither be sick.
The SELF in my understanding is the light from the film-projector - not the film. So, if you would be fully free of your ego,
if you would be free of any manifestation (that is what I belief on Dogens dropping of body and mind), then you would be free of any problem. No suffering from mental or physical illness.

Sorry if it gets long, but I do belief that we have to deal with the gap of not being completely free of any manifestation and knowing that it is all becourse of our manifestation.
What I can see is, that zazen helps a lot for many reasons and your point is always true: if you cannot let go, it tells you that you sit with intentions (of your manifestation).
But inbetween I did count my breathing or looked at my posture. I did some simple words or sayings to calm my mind. Then I did sessins and all the little more intensive stuff. There is a certain improvement (whatever it means) and step by step I have more or less cloudy sky.
But slowly.
So, if you are o.k. with your fear as a guide - that can be a long time - it is fine. But sometimes frightening .


to go to the boarder of ethics: whatever kills you, it doesn´t mind your SELF. But as long you have your ego, you will suffer.


all my best wishes to your fear. it is a good indicator for where you are in relation to ease your ego.
sat today

Ernst

[Jishin]

IMG_0707.JPG

What ego?

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ernstguitar]

Yes Jishin,

that´s the problem. What ego?
And..... what is concept, what is self, what is......?
I would use your wordings in this situation: chopping wood and fetching water and having fear.....
The question of this topic was dropping body-and-mind. So lets drop also the content of body and mind
I also belief, that the best way to have a good life is, not to take myself very serious. I know myself (the ego).
If I feel superfine, in that moment I am looking already for leaving that. It is not the good think we look.
It is always the different thing we are curious. So I do not react so much, when the ego wants this or that. (also when I am afraid).


Gassho
Ernst
sattoday