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Thread: Writing and teaching about zen?

  1. #1

    Writing and teaching about zen?

    Hi everybody!

    After a conversation on Kyonin, I was thinking about something that comes to my mind ... there is so much work to do in our language (spanish) for the dharma.

    I am a blogger and I love witting on my blog and when I could make I love to give dharma talks and tell people stories about zen and what I have learned.

    But now I think that maybe it is not such a good idea for me to make. I mean, I love it, but it is also true that I am not an "expert" or "authorized" person on zen and buddhism. So maybe I write something wich is just my point of view or something I am compleatly wrong about it could be confusing or a bad message for people not experienced with zen and buddhism.

    I love Kyonin's blog, for example, but it is different. When I read it, it is very clear for me that a very experienced zen student is writting it.

    What do you think about it. Should I try to continue writting about that (maybe even more) and share my dharma point of view or maybe I should leave that for masters and / or monks?
    Please help me keep my cup empty so I can always learn.

    Pablo.

  2. #2
    Hello,

    Might recommend asking Jundo's blessing . . . THEN bang it out.


    Gassho
    Myosha
    sat today
    "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

  3. #3
    Hmmm. I might make it clear that you are writing as a practitioner, and are not a priest or authorized teacher in a lineage. Why? It is just so that people reading your blog have some understanding of who you are and who is writing, your experience and where the opinions come from.

    Some practitioners can write better and offer wiser advice than many priests ... but it is like someone who is not a licensed lawyer offering legal guidance (even if it is good guidance) or someone not a doctor offering medical advice. Okay, in my book, so long as one makes clear that one is writing from the patient's position, not as a doctor. This is true even if the medical advice from the non-doctor is good.

    Again, the only reason is to be fair to readers about who you are and what basis your opinions have. They be fine and wise words no matter who writes them, or foolish words no matter who writes them.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    Last edited by Jundo; 06-29-2016 at 04:34 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    (...)Some practitioners can write better and offer wiser advice than many priests ... but it is like someone who is not a licensed lawyer offering legal guidance (even if it is good guidance) or someone not a doctor offering medical advice. Okay, so long as one makes clear that one is writing from the patient's position, not as a doctor. This is true even if the medical advice from the non-doctor is good.(...)
    In this lineage (I mean yours lineage, from Gudo Nishijima Roshi to you and so on), is there a possibility that a Layman could study "as a priest" and be granted Dharma-transmission (without turning to or willing to be one)? What do you think about people like, say, Charlotte Joko? I know Mahayana grants anyone the possibility to be a Bodhisattva and so (I think) in theory any student who achieves a good comprehension can help his fellows (no need for some "seal" of quality or something alike, I guess.) but in "reality", seems like that there are many Soto Sensei and Roshi that only sees the student as really "committed" to Zen-Buddhism if he/she have homeleaving shukke-tokudo.

    What do you say? When is it a good moment for a student to "teach" or convey what he knows (even if just a little...) - say, to give introductory lessons on the basics of how to sit, etc? just curiosity. (sorry if the theme was already discussed elsewhere).

    Eventually I sit with the local Sotoshu Zen Sangha here in my city which is led by a laymen "collegiate" linked to a famous temple here, founded by Ryohan Shingu Roshi, and eventually I hear some of them talking such things like "Zazen estimulates pineal gland", or about Kinhin that the foot which rises is doing a "step into future" and such things to beginners I feel it is not even close to the teachings I meet here and on all these good books of Zen that it makes me want to tell (sometimes to yell!) something, but at the same time I think maybe it could be seem as disrespectful...

    Gassho.
    _/|\_

    Kyōsei

    強 Kyō
    声 Sei

    Namu kie Butsu, Namu kie Ho, Namu kie So.

  5. #5
    Hi Marcos,

    I don't make a big distinction of "priest" or "lay person", and in the modern Zen priesthood with married priests ... and in Nishijima's Lineage of working people doubling as priests ... the distinction is very fine. So, what is the difference?

    There are certain basic priestly skills and knowledge of our history, traditions and Teachings that any Soto Zen teacher must master, even non-monastic folks like us at Treeleaf. In my view, the "priest" is someone who is working to master all that, keep the tradition alive, and is in a role of service to others. To be a "priest" is to embody all that, even if someone has kids and drives a taxi the rest of the time. I personally would not authorize someone until I have worked with them many years, and am secure in my heart that they have profoundly penetrated into the way of Zazen, well familiar with, practicing and embodying our history and teachings, are capable of passing them on to others, that they are ethical persons who will serve the community and people who come to them for guidance, and who carry forth into the next generation the ways of our Lineage. I am not afraid (and I have in the past) asked novice priests to leave training if I believe they are failing to meet such standards.

    I believe in the following, which we have adopted to this Sangha following standards shared among many Western Soto Zen Sangha ...

    The period of formation that follows upon novice ordination (Shukke Tokudo) may continue for any number of years prior to possible (although never inevitable) Dharma Transmission, but truly continues as a lifelong endeavor that will sustain individuals dedicated to exemplifying the Dharma and the the Bodhisattva ideal. Completing formal priest training will mean that an individual has internalized the tradition, is capable of transmitting it, and vows to devote her or himself to a life of continuous practice and service.The individual’s dedication to the elements of priest training must enable him or her to maintain a regular, disciplined zazen practice, to instruct and guide others in their practice, to present and discuss the history and teachings of Buddhism and Soto Zen, to perform services and ceremonies in the Soto style as appropriate and required in the circumstance, and to actively nurture and serve both Sangha and the larger community and society.

    In addition, priest training must make the individual aware of the highest ethical standards which must always be maintained by a member of the clergy, thereby assisting him or her in maintaining such standards in his or her personal life at all times. Training will also enable the individual to demonstrate personal qualities that inspire trust and confidence and encourage others to practice. Finally, training will enable the individual to clearly understand – and communicate to others – the relationship of Zen teaching and practice to everyday life.
    I believe there is great value in having some recognized and respected teacher or institution (in modern Dharma Transmission, it is usually a combination of multiple teachers and institutions) approve someone else as a teacher. It is the same reason that you don't want to turn over your heart surgery to anyone with a white coat, but would like to see that the doctor graduated from medical school. It does not mean that the Harvard Graduate doctor will not also muck up your heart transplant, but there is a little level of confidence there that the guy knows what he is doing more than turning your heart surgery over to the butcher in the super market.

    Now, there are many priests who preach and teach silly things, and a very small number (though grabbing the headlines) of priests who do unethical things. There are many licensed doctors with white coats and fancy degrees who are just butchers, and will do real harm. But there are far more butchers who are just butchers.

    There are some folks who are not ordained or "authorized" by anyone who, practicing for decades, know more about this Practice than about anyone I know and are sagely "teachers" (official or not). There are some folks who, practicing a short time, are quick to offer their views and opinions ... sometimes worthwhile and sometimes crap. That is why I believe that anyone offering opinions in a blog should tell the reader his or her background, experience and "authorization" so that the reader can judge the source.

    It is fine if someone with a year or so of practice and experience helps others with simple guidance on sitting and basic matters. Try to avoid to tell people things which are not in your confident expertise. You are dealing with people's lives and well being, and should not hand out recommendations lightly.

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatToday

    PS - Is it okay to question what a teacher says if it sound foolish? I believe it is, and it is good to ask questions. Of course, at a certain point, one cannot be fighting and arguing with the teacher too much, and the best policy is to leave and find a better teacher. I am thinking of a new student who goes to a Karate school and fights, disagrees and argues with the teacher about the Karate taught there. Fine to ask questions, maybe disagree a bit, but if the disagreement is serious best to leave and find another Karate dojo that is better.
    Last edited by Jundo; 06-29-2016 at 05:46 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hmmm. I might make it clear that you are writing as a practitioner, and are not a priest or authorized teacher in a lineage. Why? It is just so that people reading your blog have some understanding of who you are and who is writing, your experience and where the opinions come from.

    Some practitioners can write better and offer wiser advice than many priests ... but it is like someone who is not a licensed lawyer offering legal guidance (even if it is good guidance) or someone not a doctor offering medical advice. Okay, in my book, so long as one makes clear that one is writing from the patient's position, not as a doctor. This is true even if the medical advice from the non-doctor is good.

    Again, the only reason is to be fair to readers about who you are and what basis your opinions have. They be fine and wise words no matter who writes them, or foolish words no matter who writes them.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    Hi, Jundo:

    Right. This is exactly what I mean. I want to avoid creating confusion and avoid that anyone can take my opinion as just a valid teaching.
    I think I am very clear that I am just a student in all my "dharma posts", but maybe I can add some kind of notice message in all those posts so it is cristal clear that I write just from my studen experience. Right?

    I just make those posts because I see it somehow as part of my Bodhisatva work and think I can somehow help to spread the dharma.

    Again, thanks for the answer.

    Gassho, Pablo.
    Sat today.
    Please help me keep my cup empty so I can always learn.

    Pablo.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi Marcos,

    I don't make a big distinction of "priest" or "lay person", and in the modern Zen priesthood with married priests ... and in Nishijima's Lineage of working people doubling as priests ... the distinction is very fine. So, what is the difference?

    There are certain basic priestly skills and knowledge of our history, traditions and Teachings that any Soto Zen teacher must master, even non-monastic folks like us at Treeleaf. In my view, the "priest" is someone who is working to master all that, keep the tradition alive, and is in a role of service to others. To be a "priest" is to embody all that, even if someone has kids and drives a taxi the rest of the time. I personally would not authorize someone until I have worked with them many years, and am secure in my heart that they have profoundly penetrated into the way of Zazen, well familiar with, practicing and embodying our history and teachings, are capable of passing them on to others, that they are ethical persons who will serve the community and people who come to them for guidance, and who carry forth into the next generation the ways of our Lineage. I am not afraid (and I have in the past) asked novice priests to leave training if I believe they are failing to meet such standards.

    I believe in the following, which we have adopted to this Sangha following standards shared among many Western Soto Zen Sangha ...



    I believe there is great value in having some recognized and respected teacher or institution (in modern Dharma Transmission, it is usually a combination of multiple teachers and institutions) approve someone else as a teacher. It is the same reason that you don't want to turn over your heart surgery to anyone with a white coat, but would like to see that the doctor graduated from medical school. It does not mean that the Harvard Graduate doctor will not also muck up your heart transplant, but there is a little level of confidence there that the guy knows what he is doing more than turning your heart surgery over to the butcher in the super market.

    Now, there are many priests who preach and teach silly things, and a very small number (though grabbing the headlines) of priests who do unethical things. There are many licensed doctors with white coats and fancy degrees who are just butchers, and will do real harm. But there are far more butchers who are just butchers.

    There are some folks who are not ordained or "authorized" by anyone who, practicing for decades, know more about this Practice than about anyone I know and are sagely "teachers" (official or not). There are some folks who, practicing a short time, are quick to offer their views and opinions ... sometimes worthwhile and sometimes crap. That is why I believe that anyone offering opinions in a blog should tell the reader his or her background, experience and "authorization" so that the reader can judge the source.

    It is fine if someone with a year or so of practice and experience helps others with simple guidance on sitting and basic matters. Try to avoid to tell people things which are not in your confident expertise. You are dealing with people's lives and well being, and should not hand out recommendations lightly.

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatToday

    PS - Is it okay to question what a teacher says if it sound foolish? I believe it is, and it is good to ask questions. Of course, at a certain point, one cannot be fighting and arguing with the teacher too much, and the best policy is to leave and find a better teacher. I am thinking of a new student who goes to a Karate school and fights, disagrees and argues with the teacher about the Karate taught there. Fine to ask questions, maybe disagree a bit, but if the disagreement is serious best to leave and find another Karate dojo that is better.
    I totally agree with Jundo here.
    I have seen students with really a lot of years of practice give horrible advices to people and not making clear enough where their "teaching" came from and not making clear enough what their level of "authorization" really is.

    This is why I have been thinking a lot about this and because I feel this as my Sangha now, this is why it is so important for me to ask this question here so Jundo can give his opinion and advice on the matter. I would for sure prefer not to write or share about the dharma than thinking I can hurt by doing it.

    For me, this is a very serious matter. As Jundo says, your are dealing with people's well being.
    Please help me keep my cup empty so I can always learn.

    Pablo.

  8. #8
    Hi Pablo,

    I think Jundo is right. After many years of writing in the blog, magazines and books I realize people tend to believe everything they read online without researching any further. Making it clear somewhere in your blog that you are a lay practitioner will take off of you responsibility for what people want to understand.

    Also just write, learn and have fun. Readers appreciate an honest and personal blog rather than an institutional one. In time you'll get more people interested and this will give you the next idea where to go next.

    But that's just my opinion

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    #SatToday
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyonin View Post
    Also just write, learn and have fun. Readers appreciate an honest and personal blog rather than an institutional one. In time you'll get more people interested and this will give you the next idea where to go next.
    Yes, yes, yes! Although I think it good to let readers know one's background and where they are coming from, after that write, create, express, enjoy!

    I don't want what I said dissuade anyone from that!

    Y, si quiere, puede informar nuestro communidad de su blog. Solo si su quiere. (Perdon, mi espanol ahora es muy horible.)

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  10. #10

    Writing and teaching about zen?

    Hi,

    I believe in specialization. Find something that you like, do it well and lots of it. Let other people do what you don't do so well. Society works better like this. Whatever your job is, just do it. It is fun to talk Zen with people you know but do you really want to teach the stuff? What is it anyway?

    I think lots of practitioners have romantic ideas about teaching. But think about it. People may actually listen to what you have to say and act on your teaching/advice. Lots of Zen is based upon psychology. In some regards I view teaching as proving counseling services as a clergyman - for free. There can be bad outcomes if you screw it up. Don't you like to sleep at night without worrying about how the stuff you write or say may affect others in the name of the Dharma?

    What part do you want to teach? The scriptures/historical stuff? Why mess with this. It's just words. Let the people with a gift for this stuff like Jundo do his thing.

    Sitting? Sit down, shut up and breathe.

    Koan introspection? Why? If you don't pick up a Koan it's not yours. Don't make Koans.

    Counseling to help others - decrease suffering - Bhoddhisattva stuff? Get a counseling degree, some malpractice insurance and make some money. Support yourself and your family. If there is any money leftover give it to Treeleaf or your favorite good cause.

    Let the pros do their thing and stay out of it.

    Just my two cents.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  11. #11
    Hello Pablo,

    I think its fine to write a blog from your personal take and its heartening that you feel enthusiastic about sharing the dharma - particularly as you feel
    there is a need for more of this in your first language (Spanish?).

    You raise an important question though and I think it's interesting that some practitioners are content to quietly practice and others feel a strong drive
    to take a more active role. I like the way you are asking yourself questions concerning this because I feel we need to investigate our motives/drives a lot
    concerning all of this.

    There is a part of me that would love to 'teach' - but the more I learn and experience the less able I feel. There is just 'something' essential that can't be conveyed
    in words and there are already so many wonderful books full of words that have taken a stab at expressing the ineffable I can't imagine that I could ever add
    adequately to this. Organising a sitting group would be a good way to go but I have too many health problems to make a regular commitment to that and don't
    feel I have the correct level of experience because I can only manage short sits.

    I think in a way I partly agree with Jishin and also to add the fundamental way to spread the dharma seems to be how we live our lives - that speaks for a thousand words.

    But anyway - enjoy and good luck with your blog.

    Gassho,

    Willow/Jinyo

    sat today

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyonin View Post
    Hi Pablo,

    I think Jundo is right. After many years of writing in the blog, magazines and books I realize people tend to believe everything they read online without researching any further. Making it clear somewhere in your blog that you are a lay practitioner will take off of you responsibility for what people want to understand.

    Also just write, learn and have fun. Readers appreciate an honest and personal blog rather than an institutional one. In time you'll get more people interested and this will give you the next idea where to go next.

    But that's just my opinion

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    #SatToday
    Thank you, Kyonin. Nice advice as usually.
    I will follow it.

    SatToday.
    Please help me keep my cup empty so I can always learn.

    Pablo.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Yes, yes, yes! Although I think it good to let readers know one's background and where they are coming from, after that write, create, express, enjoy!

    I don't want what I said dissuade anyone from that!

    Y, si quiere, puede informar nuestro communidad de su blog. Solo si su quiere. (Perdon, mi espanol ahora es muy horible.)

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatToday
    Thanks for the encouragement, Jundo.
    And hey! Tu espańol es muy bueno.
    Please help me keep my cup empty so I can always learn.

    Pablo.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    Hi,

    I believe in specialization. Find something that you like, do it well and lots of it. Let other people do what you don't do so well. Society works better like this. Whatever your job is, just do it. It is fun to talk Zen with people you know but do you really want to teach the stuff? What is it anyway?

    I think lots of practitioners have romantic ideas about teaching. But think about it. People may actually listen to what you have to say and act on your teaching/advice. Lots of Zen is based upon psychology. In some regards I view teaching as proving counseling services as a clergyman - for free. There can be bad outcomes if you screw it up. Don't you like to sleep at night without worrying about how the stuff you write or say may affect others in the name of the Dharma?

    What part do you want to teach? The scriptures/historical stuff? Why mess with this. It's just words. Let the people with a gift for this stuff like Jundo do his thing.

    Sitting? Sit down, shut up and breathe.

    Koan introspection? Why? If you don't pick up a Koan it's not yours. Don't make Koans.

    Counseling to help others - decrease suffering - Bhoddhisattva stuff? Get a counseling degree, some malpractice insurance and make some money. Support yourself and your family. If there is any money leftover give it to Treeleaf or your favorite good cause.

    Let the pros do their thing and stay out of it.

    Just my two cents.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
    Hi Jishin.

    I understand what you say but I don't go so far. Not so big expectations.
    I think more about just writting, sharing and trying to inspire and whenever possible help someone. Just step by step, just small things in a humble blog.

    I think lots of practitioners have romantic ideas about teaching
    I know, I have seen it many times for many years, but I am not thinking about that, belive me.

    Not pretending to look like something I am not at all. Just making clear I share my experience as a student and practicioner. I think not only pro's people teachings are important, many times it is important also to read "more amateur" people's experiences. Those are very different but complementary things (as I see it).

    Thank you for sharing your point of view.

    Gasho. Sat Today.
    Please help me keep my cup empty so I can always learn.

    Pablo.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by willow View Post
    Hello Pablo,

    I think its fine to write a blog from your personal take and its heartening that you feel enthusiastic about sharing the dharma - particularly as you feel
    there is a need for more of this in your first language (Spanish?).

    You raise an important question though and I think it's interesting that some practitioners are content to quietly practice and others feel a strong drive
    to take a more active role. I like the way you are asking yourself questions concerning this because I feel we need to investigate our motives/drives a lot
    concerning all of this.

    There is a part of me that would love to 'teach' - but the more I learn and experience the less able I feel. There is just 'something' essential that can't be conveyed
    in words and there are already so many wonderful books full of words that have taken a stab at expressing the ineffable I can't imagine that I could ever add
    adequately to this. Organising a sitting group would be a good way to go but I have too many health problems to make a regular commitment to that and don't
    feel I have the correct level of experience because I can only manage short sits.

    I think in a way I partly agree with Jishin and also to add the fundamental way to spread the dharma seems to be how we live our lives - that speaks for a thousand words.

    But anyway - enjoy and good luck with your blog.

    Gassho,

    Willow/Jinyo

    sat today
    Hi, Willow.

    Maybe when I used "teaching", that was not the correct word beacause I am not a teacher.

    It also happends to me, as you say, that the more I practice (not sure if learn) the more I think if it is a good idea, but I feel it is important. As I say it is important to separate teachers "teachings" from student's experiences. Academic books are great, nice dharma talks are so helpful, sutras ... (you got the idea). But those are things wich play a different role.

    For example, there is a difference from reading books about amy things and learn from them, go to conferences or whatever, but zen practice is more a life long process it is very encouraging and helpful (at least for me) to know about the ideas and experiences of people who are going through a similar situation.

    About local meditation groups, I have worked really hard in a local sangha for nine years, but because of my circunstances it is not posible for me now to help orgaizing sitting groups too.

    About spred the dharma with how live ... that is for sure, I try everyday to live a correct life, but I don't think this and sharing experience are not exclusive things one to each other. Both are skillful means as I see them.

    Also, if it sounds in your heart ... maybe is the best way for you (as soon as you are not making bad with it, sure).

    Thank you.

    Sat today.
    Please help me keep my cup empty so I can always learn.

    Pablo.

  16. #16
    Hi Pablo

    I have a couple of blogs and make it clear on both that I am just a student. One is for my sitting group another talking about issues of chronic illness and practice. There are prominent links to Treeleaf on both and mention that if someone does want a teacher, here and Jundo are the places they should consider looking.

    Totally agree with Kyonin that writing should be fun and it is great to provide another voice on the subject from a different perspective.

    Enjoy!

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    #sattoday

  17. #17
    Thank you, Kokuu. I agree, adding diferent perspectives is good.

    Gassho

    Sat today
    Please help me keep my cup empty so I can always learn.

    Pablo.

  18. #18
    I do feel that calling on "teaching"; yes, the correct word is "teach", because when you know a bit you can convey it to someone who knows nothing. IF you know. I think there's nothing wrong with it. So many "authorized" teachers (some just SAY they're so, as nobody can - or really will - ask their teachers about them) tell students what they still don't know.

    Maybe I am a romantic fellow. But I respect a lot those people who wants - and persevere, even with some errors. Doing something is rather different from keep thinking the "pros" and "cons" of "maybe doing" something.

    What if Bodhidharma never had gone to China (maybe thinking if he would be a good teacher... maybe thinking if people would believe... maybe thinking people could find him ridiculously dressed... whatever)?

    I think every impulse that not comes from a selfish desire can be a seed of Good.

    If someone feels he is a solid practitioner, and if HE feels as so (because WHO can judge the practice of anyone?!), why he can't at least give advice on what people can do to reach the stage which he reached?

    How can anyone teach anything he don't know for sure? Still, there is lot of teachers who only repasses what they heard or read, but doesn't feel the essence of these teachings in his flesh and bones.

    One question is: if a certified Zen teacher has not reached satori (even a small glimpse of it) how are them certified? and what if his teacher's never had it too and just based his teachings on conceptual thoughts?

    But I believe it is impossible for someone wholehearted on anything he wants to reach at least some grade of proficiency.

    So, far from believe that "each one does something well in society, let one do what he does better and let others do other things" we can always be a step on this big ladder which leads nowhere.

    How many times I've recurred to Treeleaf forums and found counselling in the opinions of the fellow treeleafers here? Some professional counselours, some well-intentioned, all acting I believe in name of Dharma (and how could it not be in name of it, if he is wholehearted?)

    I think overthinking on the responsabilities our words may have over people's minds could be pointless and can we lose many good oportunities to benefit others.

    If only a single smile could save another's day, imagine a good word.

    I don't know... my "2 cents" as you say.

    Y asi, Pablo, por favor dejanos conocer el sitio de tu blog asi que pueda y si tu quieres. Quien sabe las palabras escritas allí, frutos de tu experiencia puedan ayudarnos a vivir mejor.

    Gracias por sus esfuerzos y práctica. Perdoname mi castellano.

    Gassho.
    Last edited by Kyosei; 06-30-2016 at 03:54 PM.
    _/|\_

    Kyōsei

    強 Kyō
    声 Sei

    Namu kie Butsu, Namu kie Ho, Namu kie So.

  19. #19
    Member Hoseki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    St. John's Newfoundland, Canada.
    Hey folks,

    When I was in school to become a teacher there was a lot of emphasis on small group work as the students roughly had the same understanding of things. Because of this they were often effective at helping there peers learn about the material. They were dealing with the same problems had roughly the same conceptual tools etc....

    They still need the teacher for a variety of reasons (e.g. assessing the development etc ) but their peers can provide valuable insights. Something like Sign posts along the way.

    I think it's also worth noting that experts and specialist spend so much time working under the illumination of their knowledge they can forget what it's like to grope in the dark.

    Gassho

    Sat today

    Adam


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcos View Post

    - If someone feels he is a solid practitioner, and if HE feels as so (because WHO can judge the practice of anyone?!), why he can't at least give advice on what people can do to reach the stage which he reached? How can anyone teach anything he don't know for sure? Still, there is lot of teachers who only repasses what they heard or read, but doesn't feel the essence of these teachings in his flesh and bones.

    - One question is: if a certified Zen teacher has not reached satori (even a small glimpse of it) how are them certified? and what if his teacher's never had it too and just based his teachings on conceptual thoughts?

    - How many times I've recurred to Treeleaf forums and found counselling in the opinions of the fellow Treeleafers here? Some professional counselours, some well-intentioned, all acting I believe in name of Dharma (and how could it not be in name of it, if he is wholehearted?)
    Hi Marcos,

    A couple of thoughts:

    - some very enthused practitioner is talking about Zen to someone else. There is the tree over there and I am over here (Form vs Emptiness). You know what, the tree and I are the same. We are universal substance (Form = emptiness and emptiness = form). So you tell some guy don't worry about a thing. Your feelings (form) are really not important since they don't exist anyway (emptiness). Then your phone rings and you say "gotta go. Will talk about it more tomorrow." Then your buddy says hey, that makes sense. Nothing really matters. It's all the same (emptiness). So he tells his boss to get lost, gets a divorce, gives away his possessions and maybe even worse. Gets a little nihilistic. Not 2, not 1. So you left the guy hanging at 1 and don't bring him back to 2 or give him a balanced view. Do you want this on your conscience?

    - satori is BS. Tell me what satori is and I will tell you what it is not.

    - the counseling that you get at Treeleaf is just talking from the peanut gallery. After is all said and done Jundo gives his professional opinion as a teacher. Our thoughts are just talk closely supervised by the teacher. In the street you have no such supervision.

    My 2 cents.

    Gassho, Jishin, ST

  21. #21
    I'd say, if you want to teach, get on the unsui train.

    -satToday
    Thanks,
    Kaishin (開心, Open Heart)
    Please take this layman's words with a grain of salt.

  22. #22
    Oi Jishin!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    - some very enthused practitioner is talking about Zen to someone else. There is the tree over there and I am over here (Form vs Emptiness). You know what, the tree and I are the same. We are universal substance (Form = emptiness and emptiness = form). So you tell some guy don't worry about a thing. Your feelings (form) are really not important since they don't exist anyway (emptiness). Then your phone rings and you say "gotta go. Will talk about it more tomorrow." Then your buddy says hey, that makes sense. Nothing really matters. It's all the same (emptiness). So he tells his boss to get lost, gets a divorce, gives away his possessions and maybe even worse. Gets a little nihilistic. Not 2, not 1. So you left the guy hanging at 1 and don't bring him back to 2 or give him a balanced view. Do you want this on your conscience?
    I thought of a worst hyphotesis, I'm grateful you didn't express it. I think people grabs bits of information, read book titles and make a judge of it. People hear a word in the wind and takes it and plays with it and makes of it the ideas they like, and makes of it standards on their lives, or reject it entirely without understanding the context. Am I wrong? People can read the entire Shobogenzo and be attached to ideas there, distorts it and do whatever very distant to what master Dogen intended to convey. Is that his fault? If so, I am pretty sure he'll "reincarnate" so many times just to burn this "bad karma". You're a doctor, right? Tell me how many patients just didn't "got" the most precise and healthier counsels you gave them; tell me how many just kept attached to a word, and didn't heard the rest of the discourse. Sometimes my users just don't listen to my advice. Eventually, the system breaks down because they do something I just told them not to do. My fault?

    In your example, even if master Yoda himself appeared and grab the jacket of Luke-empty-head and looked into his eyes trying to be sure he did understood what he just tried to teach, before Luke go, even this way, he never could be sure Luke got the meaning fully.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    - satori is BS. Tell me what satori is and I will tell you what it is not.

    If satori is BS what is not, I guess? I agree with you: everything is BS. Nothing sacred.
    But at this level of talking: Is what is called "satori" (talking on "zen philosophy") maybe a "checkpoint" for the comprehension of emptiness?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    - the counseling that you get at Treeleaf is just talking from the peanut gallery. After is all said and done Jundo gives his professional opinion as a teacher. Our thoughts are just talk closely supervised by the teacher. In the street you have no such supervision.

    My 2 cents.

    Gassho, Jishin, ST
    I agree. Thank you for pointing this. Same I told above. The teacher has the authority of a teacher, but people do what they like with ideas, despite the best intentions. Whose fault is then?

    Thank you so much Jishin, you're a face I remember often. (Eu lembro que vocę sabe portuguęs).

    Obrigado

    Gassho.
    Last edited by Kyosei; 06-30-2016 at 06:46 PM.
    _/|\_

    Kyōsei

    強 Kyō
    声 Sei

    Namu kie Butsu, Namu kie Ho, Namu kie So.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaishin View Post
    I'd say, if you want to teach, get on the unsui train.

    -satToday
    Hi Kaishin.

    Who knows?

    I want to learn. Thanks for providing me some of your knowledge.

    Gassho.
    _/|\_

    Kyōsei

    強 Kyō
    声 Sei

    Namu kie Butsu, Namu kie Ho, Namu kie So.

  24. #24
    Member FaithMoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
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    Southern California
    I've not had the desire to blog about zen or practice, so can't comment, but have found it helpful for my practice to write or talk about it with other practitioners. That is, speaking from my own experience. I kind of turn off when the "know it alls" hold forth. As an educator (research and quantitative methods) I always deepen my understanding of a topic when I renew the effort to transmit my understanding to others.

    FaithMoon
    st

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaishin View Post
    I'd say, if you want to teach, get on the unsui train.

    -satToday
    Early for that. Who knows someday?. I can't plan what will make in the far future ( even if time is just now ).
    By now, I will make what I can, which is sharing my experience as a lay student. Step by step.

    Sat today.
    Please help me keep my cup empty so I can always learn.

    Pablo.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaishin View Post
    I'd say, if you want to teach, get on the unsui train.

    -satToday
    Let me just drop in here quickly that, especially because of our "no near no far" online set-up here ...

    Ordination in our Sangha takes waiting for several years, and I must first really know the person well. If I know someone well for several years, they feel at home in our Community, and I feel at home with them, then after a few years we would consider to begin to start talking about Ordination. One must have a true Calling, and then it is a lifetime commitment (at least for this lifetime! )

    Then, Ordination is itself just the first step on many years of training that may or may not result in anything. Being Ordained does not make one a full priest, only a Novice in Training, and that Training will take many years without any guaranty or promise that the person will eventually become a Priest.

    As well, even during Training, I might suggest that someone retire from the Training because the chemistry is not right or their commitment lacks, and sometimes people leave the Program because their attitude or direction changes or they just get sick of me!

    If it sounds like I am being careful and discouraging on this ... I am.

    More here ...

    Traditionally, in India, China, Japan and the other Buddhist countries of Asia, one was expected to leave one’s home and family behind in order to begin the necessary training and practice of an “apprentice”. Thus, the ancient ceremony of ordination in Buddhism became known as Shukke Tokudo, “Leaving Home to Take the Way”. Now, in modern Japan and in the West, one great change in the nature of Buddhist clergy has been that many of us function more as “ministers” than “monks”, with family and children, often with outside jobs as “Right Livelihood” supporting us, while ministering to a community of parishioners. This, in keeping with changes in cultures and society, has done much to bring Buddhism out from behind monastery walls. While, now, we may be living in a monastic setting for periods of weeks or months (and thus can be called “monks” during such times), we then return to the world beyond monastery walls, where these teachings have such relevance for helping people in this ordinary life. We are not bound by monastery walls, dropping all barriers separating "inside" from "out". Thus, the term “leaving home” has come to have a wider meaning, of “leaving behind” greed, anger, ignorance, the harmful emotions and attachments that fuel so much of this world, in order to find the “True Home” we all share. In such way, we find that Home that can never be left, take to the Way that cannot be taken.

    Someone’s undertaking “Shukke Tokudo” is not a “raising up” of their position in the Sangha, it is not an honor or “promotion” into some exalted status, not by any meaning. Far from it, it is a lowering of oneself in offering to the community, much as all of us sometimes deeply bow upon the ground in humility, raising up others and the whole world above our humbled heads.


    It is to volunteer and offer oneself as the lowest ‘sailor on the ship’ at the beck and call of the passengers' well-being and needs, a nurse to help clean soiled linens, a brother or sister to sacrifice oneself for a family, a friend offering to help carry a burden. One must be committed sincerely to serve and benefit others, and one must not undertake such a road for one’s own benefit, praise or reward.

    What is more, the undertaking of “Shukke Tokudo” is not the end of the road of training, not by any meaning. Far from it, it is but the first baby steps. Perhaps, years down the road, the person will find that that they still have the inner calling to continue this path … and, perhaps, years down the road, they may have embodied this Tradition sufficiently to continue it and be certified as full “priest” and a teacher … but there is no guaranty of any of that. Some will withdraw by their change in feelings, some will be asked to withdraw. For this reason, one undertaking “Home Leaving” is not yet recognized in the Zen world as truly a fully ordained “priest” for many years, and is called an “Unsui”, meaning “clouds and water”. The best translation in English is “apprentice priest” or "novice priest" or “priest trainee”. Perhaps, years down the road, some trainees will be felt to have embodied these traditions sufficiently in order to function independently as teachers … but not necessarily. For now, they are expected to learn … with the future not assured, and no promises about the future. (Of course, we are all beginners, all students … all learning from each other … teachers learning from students too).

    We hope that, in the coming years, other people will feel this same calling. It must be by mutual decision. It is not something that should be rushed into, nor rushed through. Although people are all different, maybe a good time to first consider such a thing would be only after practicing for 5 years or longer, and then it should be deeply thought about (and non-thought about) for longer still before first taking on the responsibilities of being an apprentice student-priest.

    More here ...

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...ng-ORDINATIONS
    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  27. #27
    I know, Jundo.

    This is why I also made a quick answer saying "early for that" and "who knows in the far future".

    Being a monk are " bigger words" (not sure if that expression is correct in English). And actually ... this is something which totally changes one's life and not like "applying for a club".

    And this is not even something I was talking about, I was talking about sharing a lay student's experience: just.

    Thank you for your teaching.

    Sat today.
    Please help me keep my cup empty so I can always learn.

    Pablo.

  28. #28
    Hello everybody:

    Please let me write a few sentences trying to explain myself, specially because of some of the last replies from Kaishin and Jundo.

    Not sure if my words were clear enugh but I am worried about the conversation going too far and too fast for the very small doubt I wanted to clarify. I think Jundo's first answer and also Kyonin's really got the point and I think (and hope) they just understood what I was talking about. After that, the conversations seams to be going in a direction and touching some points I think are really sensitive.

    My point was only, as I said, to ask for opinion and some insighst about just a simple lay student sharing his experience. Just that. Just so simple.

    For sure I was not talking about any kind of "teaching authorization" and absolutly not talking about "becoming a priest" or anything simillar. For me, only thinking about those things would make no sense for an absoulte newbie here in treeleaf. As Jundo said, this kind of things (if ever come in one's life) are a life-long commitment and ( if come ) must come after years and years of working together and a lot of confidence between the student, the teacher, the sangha ... and may other circumstances.

    Please, don't take my intial question as something so big. And please forgive me if this could happend because I made any kind of mistake expressing myself during the conversation.
    Please help me keep my cup empty so I can always learn.

    Pablo.

  29. #29
    Hello Pablo,

    please don't worry - as the conversation proceeded you expressed yourself clearly and I have a lot of admiration for those members who are writing in a
    second language - even for those of us whose first language is English things get lost in translation. Also - we often go off on a tangent

    I think these conversations are a good thing - it has made me question what I might mean by feeling that I would like to 'teach'. To teach has lots of connotations doesn't it - the path of an Unsui is one dimension but I think we might allow for other paths? That is another conversation though. Zen is evolving - will possibly change its outer garments - who knows what the future of Zen in the West holds?

    Anyway - just free associating,

    Gassho

    Willow,

    sat today

  30. #30
    Joyo
    Guest
    As Willow already said, please don't worry. It is hard to express oneself fully when typing. We don't hear the tone, or the personality behind it as much. But you have definitely made it clear what your intentions are, and what they are not, Pablo.

    This has been a good conversation for me to read as well. It has also made me reflect on my own path. For right now, I have no desire to teach or to become ordained. My practice is very dear and close to my heart, it always will be. That is just it, enough for me, I am just thankful for those who want to go further and teach, publish books as they are so beneficial and have helped change my life for the better.

    Gassho,
    Joyo
    sat today

  31. #31
    Sorry if my comment made it sound like I was discouraging you--quite the opposite! I was just saying that if you really want to teach, and are very committed to the practice and interested in doing so (and it seems like you are), then seems natural to pursue the unsui path. I have no desire (or talent) for teaching, and keep my practice to myself except for close family.

    I would never consider talking about it or sharing it with friends, really, let alone strangers (but I'm not a conversational or social person to begin with). So, it just struck me that teaching was more of a formal role suited for someone in official training. If I came across someone interested, I would probably just refer them to Treeleaf!
    Thanks,
    Kaishin (開心, Open Heart)
    Please take this layman's words with a grain of salt.

  32. #32
    Member FaithMoon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Southern California
    I think why comments might have gone in this direction has something to do with the thread's subject line: "...teaching about zen". Also perhaps: "give dharma talks" in the initial post. Places I've practiced (Thien, Chan, and Zen centers), I've understood of the term "dharma talk" to be a talk given by someone empowered to teach.

    One practice that has been emphasized in my training is "listening from the heart". There are some extraordinarily insightful comments from Treeleafers of all levels of experience in these forums. I'm grateful to be involved.

    FaithMoon
    st

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaishin View Post
    Sorry if my comment made it sound like I was discouraging you--quite the opposite! I was just saying that if you really want to teach, and are very committed to the practice and interested in doing so (and it seems like you are), then seems natural to pursue the unsui path. I have no desire (or talent) for teaching, and keep my practice to myself except for close family.

    I would never consider talking about it or sharing it with friends, really, let alone strangers (but I'm not a conversational or social person to begin with). So, it just struck me that teaching was more of a formal role suited for someone in official training. If I came across someone interested, I would probably just refer them to Treeleaf!
    Lol! I thought you wrote that because of what I wrote earlier:

    I do feel that calling on "teaching"; yes, the correct word is "teach", because when you know a bit you can convey it to someone who knows nothing. IF you know. I think there's nothing wrong with it. So many "authorized" teachers (some just SAY they're so, as nobody can - or really will - ask their teachers about them) tell students what they still don't know.
    We're always learning. Ha!

    Gassho.
    _/|\_

    Kyōsei

    強 Kyō
    声 Sei

    Namu kie Butsu, Namu kie Ho, Namu kie So.

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by FaithMoon View Post
    I think why comments might have gone in this direction has something to do with the thread's subject line: "...teaching about zen". Also perhaps: "give dharma talks" in the initial post. Places I've practiced (Thien, Chan, and Zen centers), I've understood of the term "dharma talk" to be a talk given by someone empowered to teach.

    One practice that has been emphasized in my training is "listening from the heart". There are some extraordinarily insightful comments from Treeleafers of all levels of experience in these forums. I'm grateful to be involved.

    FaithMoon
    st
    I used the term "dharma talk" because it was the name used in my first tradition (Kwan Um School). In that, a "dharma talk" is given by a Master, Teacher or a senior monk or practicioner. For example, I made two years of trainning preparing myself for this kind of work for the sangha. Please let me give some background on a link from a Zen Center of that school (London Zen Center in that case) http://london-zen-centre.weebly.com/dharma-talk.html. This is why I used that term, but I understand now that it may be missunderstood in a different context.

    About the word "teaching", as I said later in the conversation:

    Maybe when I used "teaching", that was not the correct word beacause I am not a teacher.
    But again, the work of the "Dharma teacher" existed in that schools context, so the term was again familiar for me. I think this is why didn't sound like incorrect to me. More background here http://www.kwanumzen.org/wp-content/...ing-Guide1.pdf

    Anyway, at least in my case, looks like too much speech already. More words might make more confussion. Maybe I should now remain in silence about that. Unless asked to explain something, of course.
    Again sorry if did not express clearly, words might be a bad tool.

    Thank you all for your insights.
    Please, don't take my words too seriously. Those just come from a lay and simple zen student.

    Sat today.
    Please help me keep my cup empty so I can always learn.

    Pablo.

  35. #35
    Hi Pablo,

    It’s great having you here at Treeleaf and as others mentioned don’t worry. I found this thread to be quite informative and the links you provided concerning the Kwan Um Zen School are very interesting. Many different flavors of Zen with different ways of doing things. Jundo's comments have also been very insightful.

    My first language is also Spanish and trying to express myself in another language can be a real challenge at times. The good thing about Treeleaf is that we are an international community from so many cultures and backgrounds, so kick off your shoes grab a zafu and enjoy. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us.

    ˇBienvenidos y gracias por estar con nosotros!
    Gassho
    Mike

    Sat2day

  36. #36
    Like it or not, here in the U.S. we're all teachers.
    Buddhists make up only .7% of the American population; if your family, friends, co-workers, or neighbors know that you're Buddhist, it's very likely that you're the only Buddhist they've ever encountered. Whether it's your intent or not, moment by moment, by every thought, word, and deed, you're teaching them what it means to be a Buddhist. How faithfully by your example are you transmitting the Dharma? Is your life disparaging the Three Treasures, or honoring and upholding them?

    This is probably why Dogen wrote that it might be best kept to ourselves.
    Emmet

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Piobair View Post
    Like it or not, here in the U.S. we're all teachers.
    Buddhists make up only .7% of the American population; if your family, friends, co-workers, or neighbors know that you're Buddhist, it's very likely that you're the only Buddhist they've ever encountered. Whether it's your intent or not, moment by moment, by every thought, word, and deed, you're teaching them what it means to be a Buddhist. How faithfully by your example are you transmitting the Dharma? Is your life disparaging the Three Treasures, or honoring and upholding them?

    This is probably why Dogen wrote that it might be best kept to ourselves.
    Very true and wise. I sometimes comment this, usually in the case of folks who have family and friends who do not understand their new interest in Buddhism. However, it applies generally ...

    I often say that we don't prosthelytize and rarely need to try to convince anyone of the worth of these things.

    Rather, just be a good son/daughter/husband/wife/parent/friend ... perhaps let the peace and gentleness show itself in our ordinary behavior and interactions with others as the years pass ... and many folks will slowly come to understand, even if they do not fully understand.

    I would say, in your case [of family members who are rather intolerant of your Buddhism beliefs], don't even mention your Buddhist Practice to family members if it is making waves. They know, so no need to mention it more. Furthermore, sometime down the road ... maybe after a few years ... you may be surprised about how they finally open up to it when they see what a fine daughter you are. I know so many cases of family members of people, at first very closed to Buddhism, who suddenly surprised everyone by opening up to their child or relative's Buddhism with time. But for now, don't even mention it, let alone try to convince people of something about it.
    I often say that we prosthelytize our beliefs. We do not chase or pressure people to come in, we do not chase after folks who may feel they are led elsewhere. We make information available, for sure, and perhaps demonstrate by how we live in our own life. But if someone's Karma or path or calling leads them to another door, that may be the right door for them.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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