Post Sesshin thoughts

[dharmasponge]

Hi all,

I can suffer from anxiety and over-thinking at times. I have finished my first two day Sesshin I am left feeling really quite anxious. Is it normal for Sesshin to push stuff to the surface? I appreciate it was only two days but it was my first.

I didnt sit this morning as I was exhausted and had a very very rare lie in.

Thanks for your feedback....



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[Jishin]

Is it normal for Sesshin to push stuff to the surface?

What is normal?

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Meishin]

I left my first sesshin after only two days (it was scheduled for five) because it was so intense. The teacher assured me not to worry, that was very common. Sesshins after that were different. There seems to be a pattern for many people -- some days harder than others. An actual sesshin, sitting for long periods of time with others, is (IMO) not like an online experience. Hang in there.

Gassho
Meishin
sat today

[KellyRok]

Hello dharmasponge,

I too suffer from anxiety and overthinking. I have never done a sesshin outside of my home, but I experienced this during one of Treeleaf's two-day sesshins. I do believe it is normal for some of us to have these things come up while we are sitting silently. It is okay. I wish I had more practical advice...I know I spoke with Jundo about this and he may have a better way to put it into words.

But know that you are not alone and that these thoughts are just that...they will come, and they will go. Try not to over-analyze them when they arise. And don't be hard on yourself.

Gassho,
Kelly/Jinmei
sattoday

[Yugen]

Sesshin are not to be taken lightly. Two days is a good amount of time - and you are to be commended for your effort. I ha e found in my own experience that building up to multi-day sitting takes practice, like training for a marathon. I built up over years from sitting fifteen minutes to thirty, to an hour, to two, to half days, full days, etc. and it was not a linear progression. There were times when a half day would pass with ease and others that were tortured and I had to back off and work with one or two hour sessions. Lots of stuff would bubble up for me, and part of the experience is becoming familiar with these "visiting thoughts" and sitting right , letting them go by. To paraphrase Suzuki, when thoughts knock at the door, greet them but don't invite them in for tea..... Of course this is easier said than done. My thoughts often don't go away easily, and will resort to emotional SWAT team tactics - dynamic entry techniques and even use flash bangs to disrupt my sitting I left a zazenkai once.... Just got up off the zafu and went out the door, trying to catch my breath.

This is all in the course of things..... Take it all in stride and sit for periods that are comfortable and build up gradually. You don't complete a marathon after training for the 400 meter relay.....

Exhaustion is not out of the ordinary either.... I would find myself needing a rest too! The discipline of extended zazen takes work. You're exactly where you should be.

I do feel obligated to issue the disclaimer that zazen for some individuals may exacerbate anxiety and this is not to be taken lightly. Lots of stuff comes to the surface and it can be powerful stuff. Take zazen in careful doses and not to be used as a substitute in certain cases for therapy and other professional services. An excellent companion to, but not substitute for, proper mental health care and services when the situation warrants. Rest your mind and body and be gentle with yourself. You've made a great effort and challenging the activism of your mind will not be done in a short time.

Deep bows
Yugen


sat2day

[Jundo]

Hi Tony,

Really, 2 days is not a long retreat at all, and most "Sesshin" are a week or two (Heck, monks sit "Ango" for 3 months at a time on Sesshin schedule). However, even a few hours can be hard for folks not used to sitting still and the other activities of retreat. Surprisingly, doing "nothing" and "sitting still" is mentally hard sometimes for anyone. The "amuse me, distract me, feed me with thoughts" little "self" don't like it.

Sitting is a sensory deprivation tank, and when all the distractions are pulled away and quiet reigns, emotions and memories can come up. In the lack of distraction, the little "self" can become a bit disoriented, much like being in a bit of "solitary confinement." The silent eating of Oryoki, the toilet cleaning and all the rest of it brings resistance. I have sat a long session of several days when suddenly old memories from childhood popped up (not pleasant ones), a bit of paranoia took over, great loneliness, senseless anger toward the guy sitting next to me who was "in my space", etc. I have had visions and weird sensations (levitating feeling, a little Buddha that popped out of the wall and chatted with me for a bit ... even after I "pinched myself") ...

Sensory deprivation and lack of the usual mental distractions can do all that.

For almost anyone (extremely sensitive people, such as those with pre-existing psychological conditions which might make them extremely fragile to mental stresses are the rare exceptions), it all passes. We learn to relax, that the mind plays tricks and we can change it with a change in attitude.

My guess, Tony, is that the experience was just stressful and exhausting as some folks are not used to putting all the thought down for so long. If someone is a very thoughtful guy, a bit intellectual, having that pulled away for a couple of days may be a little destabilizing, like someone out in mid-ocean on a sailboat for the first time, rather dizzy with the open sky and circular horizon and the vast depths of water below. Makes the head spin, and after a couple of days of that, it can be exhausting.

However, next "Sesshin" (and I hope you try it again, even longer) will be easier if you relax, enjoy and go with it. I sometimes tell folks this ...

So, one of the greatest revelations in my life came during the 3rd or 4th day of a 10 day Sesshin at a strict Japanese monastery. Basically, I hate Sesshin ... they take me away from my family, my life, my favorite tv shows! I hate to get up in the morning at 4am in the winter, I hate to wash floors, I hate that my legs hurt sometimes! I hate the boredom of the silence, without even a book or other things to read.

But it was on the 3rd or 4th day of a Sesshin that I found an inner switch, a button to push in my own mind, where I could instantly turn "I hate sitting and the food, this is yuck!" into "this is very peaceful, this is alright, this is fine here." (The reason I describe it as a switch is that, when found, one can even play with it ... jumping back and forth between "yuck" and "alright" as if at a flip.). Now, I flip that switch many many times in life ... in all the unpleasant situations of life, great and small (most recently, just yesterday, during one of my least favorite and rather painful parts of my annual "where the sun don't shine" health check! ) The "I ... I ... I" gets very small, sometimes drops away. (One might say that the sun shines even when the sun don't shine! )

Now, our 2-day retreat is short but, sometime in that 2 days ... in a quiet, still room without entertainment ... folks are going to hit the "boring" or "I want to be elsewhere" or "my leg hurts" or "I don't like this" moment ...

... and I hope they find the switch. That is one reason, among many, for retreat.

We had another thread this week on a related matter:

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post180541

Gassho, J

SatToday

[TyZa]

On a side note, there is a documentary called "The Dhamma Brothers" where a 10 day vipassana meditation retreat was held in an Alabama prison in total silence. It's been a while since I've seen it but I remember a couple of the men really broke down from irritation, guilt, stress, etc from their memories and thoughts. Eventually, I believe, that awful sensation passed. If I remember correctly, all the inmates felt it was a very rewarding experience and supposedly changed a few lives. Looks like the program was shut down for political/religious reasons.

Very interesting documentary and somewhat relevant I think to what you may have experienced.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dhamma_Brothers

Gassho,
Tyler

SatToday

[Kyonin]

Hi Tony,

Sesshin can be very hard and in my experience, whatever small it is, is that you have to build up your strength in order to attend for more days in each event.

I think it can be very stressful when you are not used to be alone with your thoughts. We are just not used to be away from the comforts of home.

Sesshin is supposed to be hard and there's a lot of non-learning for us.

BTW I will attend to a Sesshin in September. I'll keep you guys posted

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[voylinux]

Hi, dharmasponge:

Though not in this Soto tradition, I have attended to lots of short retreats.
I can tell you that my first two days retreat was just crazy. I was not used to more than half an hour sitting each day and I thought I was becomming crazy. Lots on feelings of guiltyness, strange memories, rare sensations, fear ... etc. The teacher then said:

"This is normal. You are moving the water in the bucket more than you are used to, so all the sand and dirt in the bottom is comming to the surface. Just continue practicing and it will settle.".
And it was like that, many other retreats came and sometimes a lot of crazyness and other times just a little bit. Other times just zazen and a nice retreat. Every time is different.

Then a few years latter I was in a two weeks retreat and again ... it was great but may strange and crazy things happened. Then continued practicing, tried to just let go all those experiences and crazyness and it did settle.

I think, IMHO, that everytime you go a step further, you are pushing a little bit more than usually so your mind is not so used and strage sensations and experiences may come. Just like this. Like when you go and run 20km when you are used to train 5km a day ...

For sure, this is only my opinion. Please don't take it as a valid answer. I am sure many people here have better and more experienced ones.

[Byokan]

Hi all,

I can suffer from anxiety and over-thinking at times. I have finished my first two day Sesshin I am left feeling really quite anxious...

Hi Tony,

so you are saying that sometimes you had anxiety before your first sesshin, and now you have some anxiety after? So nothing has changed then? Hm. Okay.

Seriously, I’m sorry you feel anxiety, I have that too quite often and I don’t like how it feels. It can be very uncomfortable and exhausting.

As you know, I’m an overthinker too. Wish we could sit down with a cup of tea and overthink together. I’d be curious and ask a thousand questions: do you think it’s okay to feel anxiety? Or is it a bad thing? Is it something you need to try to change? Do you think the anxiety is “telling you something”? Is it usual for you to feel anxiety when doing new and unfamiliar things? Were you surprised by feeling the anxiety or did you anticipate it in advance? How does this anxiety feel, or manifest, in your body, and in your mind? How is it different from, say, excitement, or other emotions? Is the anxiety about something you know you need to do, like make a change, or take care of some business, or make amends with someone... or is it just free-floating anxiety? Do you feel yourself grabbing onto the anxiety, or pushing it away, or both, or neither? If so, why... what’s the payoff, what do you get by doing so? Are you disappointed that sesshin only brought you the same old anxiety you already are familiar with, instead of something cool and new and fresh? How do you usually handle your anxiety that is not sesshin-related, and will that work with this post-sesshin anxiety?

I have no advice, and there’s no hidden zenny meaning to my questions. You don’t need to answer them. Just stuff to think about. There’s lots of good specific advice here already from others. I’m guessing you probably will keep sitting. We’re all with you, as always. I hope the anxiety gets better, or even brings you some kind of gift in the end, that’d be nice.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat today

[dharmasponge]

I think I may have given the wrong impression ...I don't suffer from anxiety as such - I should have chosen my words more carefully. Though as a long term CBT therapist I know how debilitating it can be. I am just aware of a predilection I have for over thinking at times. But this was more prevalant post sesshin.

Sat_Today

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[dharmasponge]

....but your replies are as ever really helpful. Thanks.

Jundo your reply was particularly helpful. Either way the short Sesshin has spured me on and I have come away with nothing but a positivity. Despite the anxiety, which is now waning.

_/|\_

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[Kaishin]

Good job to you. I don't think I could handle a 2-day sesshin. I still have not been to one, a large gap in my practice. I hope to attend one when my kids are more self-sufficient, and can be at home on their own without having to arrange childcare. Hopefully in 3-4 years I can schedule more easily. And then I will, too, get to experience my monkey mind exploding

-satToday

[Shoka]

I think I may have given the wrong impression ...I don't suffer from anxiety as such - I should have chosen my words more carefully. Though as a long term CBT therapist I know how debilitating it can be. I am just aware of a predilection I have for over thinking at times. But this was more prevalant post sesshin.

Sat_Today

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[Tai Shi]

I understand--have never sat longer than 90 minutes--so am I sensitive? I ask you who know, if with liabilities, would this still be possible--I mean saver situations? What is the benefit of sitting for 2 days completely absorbed in sitting?

Tai Chi
std
Gassho

[Jundo]

I understand--have never sat longer than 90 minutes--so am I sensitive? I ask you who know, if with liabilities, would this still be possible--I mean saver situations? What is the benefit of sitting for 2 days completely absorbed in sitting?

Tai Chi
std
Gassho

Hi Taishi,

Where you can or not, with your physical condition and pain, is one thing. You certainly should not unless the doctor says it is possible and recommended.

However, is it a generally good thing? Yes. Even though there is "nothing to attain" in this Practice, that does not mean there is "nothing to attain". It is our daily, busy running around and chasing after a life of "this and that" which hides the real meaning of "nothing to attain" from us. Only by sitting still, for long periods, truly giving up the chase can we sometimes savor the real meaning of "nothing to attain". It is the little self that demands to be distracted and entertained ... and sometimes only days of sitting quietly not feeding and amusing that "me myself and i" can put that little self out of a job.

Now, if you cannot attend such a long retreat because of physical limitation, no problem! Why? Your physical pain and limitations also are your "retreat" if you have a wise eye, and offer the same opportunities to rest content without feeding the little self. In other words, you can find "nothing to attain" and freedom right as and because of your limitations which are also like "monastery walls" which offer a place for Practice.

Gassho, J

SatToday

PS - Someone linked to an old Talk and thread today that touches on this ... the difference between "pain" and "suffering" in a Buddhist context ...
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...fering-Freedom

[dharmasponge]

Hi Taishi,

Where you can or not, with your physical condition and pain, is one thing. You certainly should not unless the doctor says it is possible and recommended.

However, is it a generally good thing? Yes. Even though there is "nothing to attain" in this Practice, that ......

Beautifully put Jundo. _/|\_

Sat_Today

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[Eishuu]

"Why? Your physical pain and limitations also are your "retreat" if you have a wise eye, and offer the same opportunities to rest content without feeding the little self. In other words, you can find "nothing to attain" and freedom right as and because of your limitations which are also like "monastery walls" which offer a place for Practice. "

- thank you Jundo. These words are so helpful to me.

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

[Tai Shi]

Well, I stand corrected

Thinking about session, and that two days is not long, and I know that food and water is provided, it would do me good to face some of my most terrifying fears. Knowing that this is not narcissistic, and that I am not narcissistic, the action of confrontation of self might bring me to a point of awareness. In South Dakota there is nowhere to practice lon session, so perhaps one day when Treeleaf offers session of length, I might participate. So much good application could come into my life from what has been said here.

Tai Shi
std
Gassho

[Rich]

Your whole life can be a retreat but you may have to change some things. For me it was getting up very early and giving up most of the TV.

SAT today

[Jundo]

Well, I stand corrected

Thinking about session, and that two days is not long, and I know that food and water is provided, it would do me good to face some of my most terrifying fears. Knowing that this is not narcissistic, and that I am not narcissistic, the action of confrontation of self might bring me to a point of awareness. In South Dakota there is nowhere to practice lon session, so perhaps one day when Treeleaf offers session of length, I might participate. So much good application could come into my life from what has been said here.

Tai Shi
std
Gassho

Hi Taishi,

If you doctors think you are up for it, you would be more than welcome. We have a Retreat of 2 days each December, but it is available any time, all year round ... and the preparatory materials and cautions can be viewed any time too.

TREELEAF SANGHA online 2-DAY ANGO-JUKAI-ROHATSU RETREAT
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...28MAIN-PAGE%29

Gassho, J

SatToday