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Thread: Do we need to practice at real Zendo?

  1. #1

    Do we need to practice at real Zendo?

    I want to ask this question.

    Do we need to practice at real Zendo?

    We are at Internet.But Do we need to practice at real Zendo?

    And I live in Japan.But difficult to search real Zendo.Because our Sangha at Japan do not have place to sit .

    Maybe USA have lots of Zendo more from Japan.

    I talk this theme at Antaiji with practitiner at over sea from Japan.

    So I helped by here.But I went to Antaiji and other temple.

    I met many people who leave Sangha and misunderstand Sangha.And they can not come back.

    How do you think about this matter?






    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  2. #2
    We practice in a real zendo. Online and offline both... whenever, however. I would not waste time here otherwise. No more to say on "real"



    Gassho
    Daizan


    sat today.

  3. #3
    なぜここには日本語がありませんか?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Daizan View Post
    We practice in a real zendo. Online and offline both... whenever, however. I would not waste time here otherwise. No more to say on "real"



    Gassho
    Daizan


    sat today.
    I agree.

    However, I also believe that it is good to go to a place and socialize with folks that way too, and to sit with them when one can, if possible. Of course! Anyway, why limit things to one or the other? Here, we communicate and look into each others' hearts and sit together in rich ways ... but I would never deny that being in a "brick and mortar" Zendo is not a rich way to communicate, share and sit together in rich ways like here but different too, offering the experience of being with folks "in the flesh" we cannot. It is not an "either/or" matter. Why not both, not two (assuming it is physically possible for someone to do so)?

    Anyway ... the fact that Mr. K. says this is almost shocking, is it not?

    And I live in Japan.But difficult to search real Zendo.Because our Sangha at Japan do not have place to sit .

    Maybe USA have lots of Zendo more from Japan.
    I recently sent him a list of dozens and dozens of Zazenkai, Soto and Rinzai, scattered through Japan, but the fact is that most happen maybe once a week or even once a month (!), and are scattered very far apart around the country. That is about the same situation in America and Europe too. The vast vast majority of Soto Zen and other Zen temples have no Zazenkai at all, and are focused on funerals and memorial services. In any case, the Japanese now have such a negative image of Zazen and Buddhism as just associated with funerals that it is almost impossible to get anyone to sit Zazen (thus my advertisements in the local "What's Happening" paper usually get one or two inquiries at most despite large readership. Of course, the people who have come from such notices in the paper ... like Mr. K. ... are wonderful! ).

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-19-2016 at 02:21 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  5. #5
    Google plus is pretty real. Real or unreal the ego looks for excuses not to practice because there is no gain, no why, no purpose. It just is, so enjoy the real, the unreal, your total being.

    SAT today
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  6. #6
    I will repost. But this is a important theme for us.
    また再度投稿します。 これは私たちにとって重要です。

    But I am dissapoint that our Tree leaf member do not have Japanese people.
    I can have opinion of without Japanese at here.
    私は木の葉禅堂に日本人がいないことを残念に思います。そしてここに日本人がいないことに意見 があります。

    Our Sangha was started by master Dogen,so I talk about this thing.
    When I was at ANTAIJI ,I talk about this theme with our fellow.

    しゃーんめな!Do you know this word Jundo? Syanmena!

  7. #7


    I will shere Rinkou study group by Syuzo Reader Mui from USA at Antaiji.

    please watch to the end of this movie.

    I inspire by him.
    Last edited by Kakunen; 01-19-2016 at 03:51 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Konan View Post

    しゃーんめな!Do you know this word Jundo? Syanmena!
    Basically an acidic "it can't be helped" (仕方ない ) in Kansai dialect?

    I just posted an article for our priests on the state of Buddhism in Japan ... funerals, empty temples ...

    http://toyokeizai.net/articles/-/80746

    My joke is ...

    It is one reason I cannot get people here to come to our Zazenkai. Buddhism is something for grandpa's funeral and memorial services. "Zen" has an image of austerity and pain because that is the media image. So, when I say "come to practice Zen", it is like trying to persuade people to come to a funeral parlor for a good time of getting hit with a stick! Really.

    If I did not call our Zazenkai "Zen Buddhist" ... and maybe changed the name and atmosphere to "Happy Relax Cosmic Yoga" or some silly name. and filled the place with balloons and a bounce house, I would get many more people to come. I mean it.

    Gassho, Jundo

    Typical media image in Japan of Zazen ... (advert for a housing company, his "satori" is he realizes the kind of house he wants to build) ...

    Frankly, it is not just Treeleaf. Even the big Zazenkai at Sojiji Head Temple I attended for about 10 years had new people coming all the time ... but a pretty steady membership of about 40 people ... because most would not stay. It is like jogging or a gym membership that way. Many folks commit at New Years Eve, but a few weeks later ...

    Hey, Mr. K., maybe you want to help Treeleaf have more Japanese members? You can be our bridge and Japanese intercultural adviser! Really!

    Gassho,
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-19-2016 at 04:49 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  9. #9
    Mp
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hey, Mr. K., maybe you want to help Treeleaf have more Japanese members? You can be our bridge and Japanese intercultural adviser! Really!
    I too think this is a great idea. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    #sattoday

  10. #10
    Thank you for this thread Mr.K.

    We practice in a real zendo. Online and offline both... whenever, however.


    Anyway ... the fact that Mr. K. says this is almost shocking, is it not?
    It is! It was a big surprise for me because my understanding was, when in Japan, you may just
    "turn around the corner" and encounter a zendo where you can sit zazenkai and join a regular
    practice.

    In my country there is only one Zendo "in flesh" practicing in the Soto Tradition / Deshimaru lineage
    with a teacher coming from Poland 3-4 times a year to organize sesshins. They do offer weekly
    sittings by a local clergy however, but it is 500 km distance from my city.
    No traces of other traditions/schools so far. Therefore Treeleaf is priceless (but not for this reason only).

    On the other hand I suppose it would be good for me to begin joining those zazenkais once-two times a year.
    I think we need both, 'on-line' and 'real'.
    "Do not lose either the eye of oneness or the eye that discerns differences" -Dogen

    Gassho,
    Sergey
    sat-today

    Last edited by Washin; 01-19-2016 at 08:17 AM. Reason: sesshins

  11. #11
    There are 325 million in the US. I'm guessing maybe 10000 practice Zen. Many more people try it and quit. So it's not just Japan.

    Will sit now
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Konan View Post

    We are at Internet.But Do we need to practice at real Zendo?
    It depends. If you don't think Treeleaf is real then you must not practice here. If you think Treeleaf is real then you can practice here if you want to.

    “All that we are is the result of what we have thought." - Siddhartha Gautama

    "If you say a painting is not real, then the material phenomenal world is not real. Unsurpassed enlightenment is a painting. The entire phenomenal universe and the empty sky are nothing but a painting. Since this is so, there is no remedy for satisfying hunger other than a painted rice cake. Without painted hunger you never become a true person."- Zen Master Dogen

    Is the painting of a Zendo real (Treeleaf)? If you say a painting (Treeleaf) is not real, then the material phenomenal world is not real. Unsurpassed enlightenment is a painting (Treeleaf). The entire phenomenal universe and the empty sky are nothing but a painting (Treeleaf). Since this is so, there is no remedy for satisfying hunger (practice) other than a painted rice cake (Treeleaf).

    I am hungry. Who wants to grab some rice cakes at Treeleaf with me?

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  13. #13
    Hi Jishin,

    Yes ...

    The world is virtual, this sangha is real
    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...sangha-is-real

    No Sangha is perfect, each is perfectly imperfect. Some have strong points of various kinds, our is availability any time and place, plus excellent community of individuals with varied level of experience. If people can get to a community in "meat-meet space" sometimes too, that is how things have been for millenia ... good to sit with folks in the flesh.

    When resources are made available, it is up to people to make good use of them well.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  14. #14
    Nindo
    Guest
    Yesterday when I read the thread about smell (particularly incense) and other "sense inputs" during practice, I could not help but think about my last Zazenkai where I had a very fart-happy seat neighbour. At another occasion, somebody was acting very clumsy and I got impatient and even angry, and I had to deal with my agitation in the silence of the practice. Such direct interaction and sense input (!) from other people provide quite a different experience of practice than sitting in one's own cosy place at home.

    So I agree with Jundo; this sangha is real, but if at all possible, also get a taste of practice with others in the flesh.

    Gassho
    Nindo
    sattoday

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindo View Post
    Yesterday when I read the thread about smell (particularly incense) and other "sense inputs" during practice, I could not help but think about my last Zazenkai where I had a very fart-happy seat neighbour. At another occasion, somebody was acting very clumsy and I got impatient and even angry, and I had to deal with my agitation in the silence of the practice. Such direct interaction and sense input (!) from other people provide quite a different experience of practice than sitting in one's own cosy place at home.

    So I agree with Jundo; this sangha is real, but if at all possible, also get a taste of practice with others in the flesh.

    Gassho
    Nindo
    sattoday
    I like this, Nindo, and agree. The closest Zendo is nearly two hours away for me, so I used to sit weekly with a Theravada group, even though I wore a rakusu and kept my eyes open and brought my cushion. It is definitely a different kind of sitting to sit with others who might be moving or farting or coughing or even falling asleep. I think it's good to do that, to go to a place and sit with others sometimes, even if not a Zen place. Sitting online with Treeleaf is also lovely, but just different. And yet, both are the same. While I may be sitting with a recorded zazenkai, there is also a big dog barking out back, my own dog running after one of our cats, maybe my wife doing laundry, etc, and when I sit, these things, while still doing what they're doing, sit with me, and I sit with them, just as in a zendo.

    One of things I think Jundo has said before is that he thinks it important that all Treeleaf members try to attend a retreat once a year. I like this quite a bit, though it is difficult. There are only so many sesshins available nearby, most are a weeklong, and my boss would probably laugh in my face if I told him I was going to take a week off (to do anything). I'd be looking for another job. Still, hoping to find a three-day retreat in a brick and mortar place b/c I feel in the bones it's important to do.

    Nice thread. Now could someone please translate the video please. Heheh, just kidding.

    Gassho,
    Alan
    sat today
    Shōmon

  16. #16
    I really think this is a personal choice. For some, they may like a brick and mortar zendo. I actually prefer Treeleaf. I think it also has to do with me not having a traditional approach to Zen practice. I personally like practicing on my own for the most part. To me, the core of Zen is practice, study, conversation with other practitioners to deepen the practice, so what I have here is exactly what I want. I practice on my own, but I also practice with you all.

    Again, and this may sound odd coming from a Zen practitioner, I just don't feel at home at the zendos I've gone too. I prefer the practice here. I also don't want to sound provocative, but I have a physical zendo about 30 miles from me; I've been there a few times, but I don't feel right there. I just like it here better. It's just a personal choice for me.

    So I don't think it's always about not having a physical location, so Treeleaf will have to suffice. For me, I'm here because this is my first choice. It fits, and I really enjoy it; I feel it helps my practice.

    Gassho,

    Risho
    -sattoday
    Last edited by Risho; 01-19-2016 at 05:04 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Risho View Post
    I really think this is a personal choice. For some, they may like a brick and mortar zendo. I actually prefer Treeleaf. I think it also has to do with me not having a traditional approach to Zen practice. I personally like practicing on my own for the most part. To me, the core of Zen is practice, study, conversation with other practitioners to deepen the practice, so what I have here is exactly what I want. I practice on my own, but I also practice with you all.

    Again, and this may sound odd coming from a Zen practitioner, I just don't feel at home at the zendos I've gone too. I prefer the practice here. I also don't want to sound provocative, but I have a physical zendo about 30 miles from me; I've been there a few times, but I don't feel right there. I just like it here better. It's just a personal choice for me.

    So I don't think it's always about not having a physical location, so Treeleaf will have to suffice. For me, I'm here because this is my first choice. It fits, and I really enjoy it; I feel it helps my practice.

    Gassho,

    Risho
    -sattoday
    I feel the same way. Therefore, I think I am going to turn my attention back toward finding a physical zendo to do a longer retreat, because it would be too easy to go along with my personal preference and not! (Maybe I will get the seat next to the fart-happy guy/gal, what great practice )

    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday

  18. #18
    Eishuu
    Guest
    I actually had a dream last night that I was in a physical/actual Treeleaf Zendo. It had a wonderful atmosphere. I take that as my subconscious already interpreting this as a 'real' place. I did go to a zendo once in London. I got scolded for being late and found it very intimidating.

    Gassho
    Lucy
    Sat today

  19. #19
    To each their own. Some may even prefer the Tibetan or Theravada group, the Baptist Church or Mosque, or the Richard Dawkins book signing! To each their own.

    And don't worry ... I am in touch with some of the best technological minds on the cutting edge at Tsukuba University, the "MIT of Japan" ...

    ... and they are very very close to having a way to send farts over the internet. Really.

    http://www.euronews.com/2015/02/02/s...-the-internet/

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-19-2016 at 05:48 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  20. #20

  21. #21
    As far as I know the nearest zendo for me is about 2 1/2 hours away. My work schedule isn't consistent so it's a difficult option. I have attended retreats at ZMM several times in the past, but again, life is different now.

    Without Treeleaf I wouldn't have any contact with another practitioner. I value this Sangha greatly. I get to participate in conversations and learn from others. We support each other without being in the same building and that says a lot. If a brick and mortar zendo was to open in my neighborhood (highly unlikely) I'm sure I would visit there on occasion. But I think Treeleaf is where I belong.

    Gassho,
    Entai
    #Sitting Soon

    泰 Entai (Bill)
    "this is not a dress rehearsal"

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Konan View Post
    なぜここには日本語がありませんか?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    私達の日本語は悪いです。Your english is better.

    Gassho
    Sat.
    Marc Connery
    明岩
    Myo̅ Gan - Bright Cliff

    I put the Monkey in Monkeymind

  23. #23
    Just as a footnote, when a Japanese person does come to the Zendo in Treeleaf, I attempt to offer instructions in Zazen as well as any Zen Talk in bilingual fashion ... offering a running translation, or at least a shorthand summary of whatever I am saying in English.

    However, doing so has given me a great respect for the several great Japanese priests ... such as Shunryu Suzuki ... who struggled to teach westerners in sometimes halting English. I have become convinced that several of the most "profound" teachings in "Zen Mind Beginners Mind" sound more like a mistranslation due to his wrestling to explain Zen in a foreign language! I barely understand what I am saying in English sometimes during a Talk ... What must it sound like in Japanese!?!

    (By the way, I once had a Japanese visitor ask me why I was talking about a character on the TV series "LOST" (also named "Dogen) ... )



    As an aside, here is what happens if you take the above words, put them into the Google automatic translator into Japanese, then back into English:

    However, as do footnote people of Japan comes to Zendo in Treeleaf, I, as well as instructions on the offer ... meditation translation running my shorthand summary at least anything, any of Zen meditation in bilingual methods it provides the story, or it tries to liked in English.

    However, so you like me, sometimes Suzuki struggled to teach the West to stop the English Toshitaka ... like, some of the great Japanese priest ... to doing given great respect. Some of the teaching most of the "deep" in the I hear the mistranslation so by his wrestling because "Zen Mind Beginner's Mind", we have become convinced that to explain the Zen in a foreign language! [I'm scared]
    Suzuki struggled to teach the West to stop the English Toshitaka ... like, some of the great Japanese priest ... to doing given great respect.

    Very Zen!

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-19-2016 at 08:20 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  24. #24
    I guess I see it like Risho. Part of it is just that we are a busy family with young kids, and I can't imagine going to a sesshin until they are much older and self sufficient (if not out of the house entirely).

    Another part of it is just that I'm not a very social nor a verbal person. I like the mostly asynchronous, non-verbal nature of Treeleaf. So I guess I'm like a mountain hermit who likes to come down to the village sometimes for a bit of interaction, but then quickly scurries back off to the misty hills

    I'll get to a sesshin eventually, but I can't imagine doing so in brick-and-mortar locations will ever be feasible on a regular basis until I'm an old, retired guy (if that ever happens!)

    -satToday
    Thanks,
    Kaishin (開心, Open Heart)
    Please take this layman's words with a grain of salt.

  25. #25
    Hi Mr. K

    I agree with all my fellow Treeleafers. This is a real zendo, it's just that we have adapted to the new ways of being together. In many ways, this is a better experience because this zendo never closes and we are in touch all day long!

    However, I also think that we must experience a traditional zendo in order to be with people and enjoy farty or angry fellows. It's all part of the experience.

    The thing is... for many of us a trip to Japan is way beyond the possible. In other cases, finding a zendo in our countries is impossible since they just don't exist.

    Since there are no Zen temples in Mexico, I have to go to wherever I can if time and money allow.

    Maybe someday, though

    Oh and I would love to see more Japanese friends joining in.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  26. #26
    When I was at Antaiji.When we sit we feel breath of member and we work under danger situation.

    We feel breath and blood of our Sangha friend,so when I suffer hard situation,someone help me and help together.
    Over age and country,we help together.When I was at Antaiji,I talk to Jundo such like this.

    Here in Antaiji I do not help neighbour,just throw our mind to Buddhism,we are at together under Sangha.
    This mean not help neighbour but we are all together.

    So we can do hard practice,in rice field,green field,moutain,Takuhatsu at city,Darma talk,sit under snowing.
    I think we feel emptiness like this situation by our experience.When we do not concentrate moment,we will die.

    I went another temple Annonji,here is introduce by Bryson and Scott.Annonji is Soto temple at near Tokyo.
    We have monthly 7day Sesshin,and join 10-20 people.But they are different style of Antaiji.But I respect them.
    They search enlightenment by brain,Koan style.So when I talk my experience at Antaiji,they deny Antaiji.
    But I do not feel sad.I just feel as is.Because they talk about our Sangha always.

    So I feel real when I can feel breath and seriousness.

    But here at Treeleaf how do I check ? I sometimes feel sad when person moving under Zazenkai and someone who want know more too much.
    If we have a system of checking good direction,we can say here is real.But now we can not check,so I feel difficult to say real.

    Abbot Muho always said DO NOT MOVE! at Zazen.How do we became emptiness under desire of moving?
    I do not think that always do not move at Zazen,but I practice to live right here right now,before we talk about emptiness,we sit DO NOT MOVE!

    In Antaiji person come from oversea by hitchhiking sometimes.In Annonji person who have a job,they come after job and sit and come back to job early morning 4AM... I do not think this is difficult..

    When I went to Antiji,I let go my family,job,money,and Pride.
    Last edited by Kakunen; 01-20-2016 at 02:43 AM.

  27. #27
    Kyonin... I so agree. This IS a real Zendo. There are a few nearby me, with their own "flavor", but none where I've truly felt at home as Sangha. Treeleaf has adapted to the world, as we all should, and as you've elequently stated 24/7 too!

    ive found myself a home, and I feel like a sponge yearning to absorb and learn more and more.

    Im very happy to be here with all of you.....true Gassho to you all.

    Feank
    sattoday....needs to sit more

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Konan View Post
    I went another temple Annonji,here is introduce by Bryson and Scott.Annonji is Soto temple at near Tokyo.
    We have monthly 7day Sesshin,and join 10-20 people.But they are different style of Antaiji.But I respect them.
    They search enlightenment by brain,Koan style.So when I talk my experience at Antaiji,they deny Antaiji.
    But I do not feel sad.I just feel as is.Because they talk about our Sangha always.
    Let Antaiji be Antaiji, Annonji be Annonji, Treeleaf be Treeleaf.

    When is Rome, sit as the Romans sit.

    郷に座っては郷に座え


    But here at Treeleaf how do I check ? I sometimes feel sad when person moving under Zazenkai and someone who want know more too much.
    If we have a system of checking good direction,we can say here is real.But now we can not check,so I feel difficult to say real. .... When I went to Antiji,I let go my family,job,money,and Pride.
    Here at Treeleaf, I recommend a kind of "self checking method" (or better said "self-non-self checking method"

    自己チェック方法 = 自己非自己チェック方法

    When this Way is "working well" amid all the sunny days and storms of family job money and pride, life and death, sickness and health loss and gain, all the chaos of Samsara ...

    ... one just knows for how one now sees right through all the chaos of Samsara even amid all the chaos of Samsara. At Antaiji, one might know by how well one digs a hole, cuts down a tree, proper sitting posture for 10 hours ... here we know by how well we face flat tires, crying babies, happy babies, cancer, cancer cures, birthday parties, beautiful mountains, ugly urban scenes, a single flower or blade of grass ...

    ときにこの方法は、すべての嵐ファミリージョブお金と誇り、生と死、病気や健康の損失と利得、輪廻のすべて の混乱の中で、「うまく機能して"されています...

    ...一つはただ一つ、今でも輪廻のすべての混乱の中で輪廻のすべての混乱を介して正見ている方法について は知っています。安泰寺で、1は1つが、穴を掘る, 10時間のための適切な着座姿勢、我々がすることによって知っているここに...木をカットダウンどれだけ によって知っているかもしれないどれだけ私たちは、フラットタイヤ、泣いて赤ちゃん、幸せな赤ちゃん、癌、 癌の治す、誕生日パーティー、美しい山々、醜いに直面都市のシーン... 一輪の花、草の刃 ...

    古い禅みんなが言ったように、「一つは、熱いとして熱い, 冷温水などの冷水を知っています。」

    As the old Zen Guys said, "One knows cold water as cold and hot water as hot. "

    Gassho, J

    SatToday

    PS - It is my considered belief, talking with a lot of Zen folks over the years, that in the old days the Koan Zazen folks knew when someone "passed a Koan", not so much by the "right answer" they gave in the Dokusan room, but more by seeing their total behavior day in day out, how they reacted to life's crap in the monastery.

    誰かが唯一の "正解"彼らは獨參ルームで与えたが、一日中そこに総行動の日に基づいて、「公案を通過した」ときに、古い 時代に公案座禅の人々は知っていた、彼らは人生のイベントに反応する方法による.

    Actually, more than the Teacher knowing, it was the Teacher seeing the confidence in the student's life, and knowing that the student knew. Thus even then, it was a kind of self-not-self checking method.

    実際には、知っている先生よりも、それは弟子の生活の中で自信を見て先生があって、弟子が知っていたことを 知っています。これはその時でさえ、それは自己非自己チェック方法のようなものでした
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-20-2016 at 03:43 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  29. #29
    Joyo
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post



    When this Way is "working well" amid all the sunny days and storms of family job money and pride, life and death, sickness and health loss and gain, all the chaos of Samsara ...

    ... one just knows for how one now sees right through all the chaos of Samsara even amid all the chaos of Samsara. At Antaiji, one might know by how well one digs a hole, cuts down a tree, proper sitting posture for 10 hours ... here we know by how well we face flat tires, crying babies, happy babies, cancer, cancer cures, birthday parties, beautiful mountains, ugly urban scenes, a single flower or blade of grass ...



    Gassho, J

    SatToday


    Gassho,
    Joyo
    sat today

  30. #30
    Mp
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    When this Way is "working well" amid all the sunny days and storms of family job money and pride, life and death, sickness and health loss and gain, all the chaos of Samsara ...

    ... one just knows for how one now sees right through all the chaos of Samsara even amid all the chaos of Samsara. At Antaiji, one might know by how well one digs a hole, cuts down a tree, proper sitting posture for 10 hours ... here we know by how well we face flat tires, crying babies, happy babies, cancer, cancer cures, birthday parties, beautiful mountains, ugly urban scenes, a single flower or blade of grass ...
    Great minds think a like Joyo, I too very much like this, thank you Jundo. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    #sattoday

  31. #31

    Do we need to practice at real Zendo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Let Antaiji be Antaiji, Annonji be Annonji, Treeleaf be Treeleaf.

    When is Rome, sit as the Romans sit.

    郷に座っては郷に座え




    Here at Treeleaf, I recommend a kind of "self checking method" (or better said "self-non-self checking method"

    自己チェック方法 = 自己非自己チェック方法

    When this Way is "working well" amid all the sunny days and storms of family job money and pride, life and death, sickness and health loss and gain, all the chaos of Samsara ...

    ... one just knows for how one now sees right through all the chaos of Samsara even amid all the chaos of Samsara. At Antaiji, one might know by how well one digs a hole, cuts down a tree, proper sitting posture for 10 hours ... here we know by how well we face flat tires, crying babies, happy babies, cancer, cancer cures, birthday parties, beautiful mountains, ugly urban scenes, a single flower or blade of grass ...

    ときにこの方法は、すべての嵐ファミリージョブお金と誇り、生と死、病気や健康の損失と利得、輪廻のすべて の混乱の中で、「うまく機能して"されています...

    ...一つはただ一つ、今でも輪廻のすべての混乱の中で輪廻のすべての混乱を介して正見ている方法について は知っています。安泰寺で、1は1つが、穴を掘る, 10時間のための適切な着座姿勢、我々がすることによって知っているここに...木をカットダウンどれだけ によって知っているかもしれないどれだけ私たちは、フラットタイヤ、泣いて赤ちゃん、幸せな赤ちゃん、癌、 癌の治す、誕生日パーティー、美しい山々、醜いに直面都市のシーン... 一輪の花、草の刃 ...

    古い禅みんなが言ったように、「一つは、熱いとして熱い, 冷温水などの冷水を知っています。」

    As the old Zen Guys said, "One knows cold water as cold and hot water as hot. "

    Gassho, J

    SatToday

    PS - It is my considered belief, talking with a lot of Zen folks over the years, that in the old days the Koan Zazen folks knew when someone "passed a Koan", not so much by the "right answer" they gave in the Dokusan room, but more by seeing their total behavior day in day out, how they reacted to life's crap in the monastery.

    誰かが唯一の "正解"彼らは獨參ルームで与えたが、一日中そこに総行動の日に基づいて、「公案を通過した」ときに、古い 時代に公案座禅の人々は知っていた、彼らは人生のイベントに反応する方法による.

    Actually, more than the Teacher knowing, it was the Teacher seeing the confidence in the student's life, and knowing that the student knew. Thus even then, it was a kind of self-not-self checking method.

    実際には、知っている先生よりも、それは弟子の生活の中で自信を見て先生があって、弟子が知っていたことを 知っています。これはその時でさえ、それは自己非自己チェック方法のようなものでした
    Please teach me about checking method.

    And please post in English.Google Japanese translation is not good for our communication. I am sorry if you feel bad.

    合掌
    Last edited by Kakunen; 01-20-2016 at 11:51 AM.

  32. #32
    I read this thread.

    I feel difficult to talk about Sangha here.

    So this is truth.So Japanese people come here is difficult.

    I was at Antaiji was International Zendo,and Annonnji is also international.
    Monk of Annonnji was graduate American University.

    I saw lots of people from oversea,and communicate under difficult situation.

    I was at such like situation of communicate with western Zen.
    But I can not communicate well.

    So we will think about communication.
    I hope you to do more effort to know other culture.

    I will keep on staying here.
    If we are at difficult situation,that is very important to think again of our practice.

    Let us remove our separation of culture and Sangha.


    We all Japanese always express thank you mind to get off train and Bus.
    Masahiro Tanaka at Yankees say I am sorry to have injure.

    We are all separate now,this is fact.So we can practice.

    I hope many Japanese come here at Zendo.I respect Antaiji and Annonji.So they have effort to welcome to people from oversea.

    We do Gassho.

  33. #33

  34. #34
    Thank you for your answer to Konan's question Jundo

    As no one can really know what is in another person's heart we have to go by external behaviour. How we are in the
    world is ultimately of more importance than how we are observed to be sitting or how articulate we are at talking about Buddhism.
    I would think 'shining/turning the light within means that we ultimately need to check in with ourselves as to how we are doing.

    But - yes - it's good to have a teacher pointing us in the right direction - then we have to learn to walk the path in our own steps and
    see where it leads us.

    Gassho

    Willow/Jinyo

    sat today

  35. #35
    Konan,
    I disagree with everyone. Don't check yourself. It's just another game of the ego. Just sit and don't be so concerned about where and with whom you are sitting with.

    Will sit now
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    I disagree with everyone. Don't check yourself. It's just another game of the ego. Just sit and don't be so concerned about where and with whom you are sitting with.
    I disagree with everyone. Don't check yourself. It's just another game of the ego. Just sit and don't be so concerned about where and with whom you are sitting with. :-)

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Konan View Post
    I was at such like situation of communicate with western Zen.
    But I can not communicate well.
    You do fine.

    I feel that you are a bit stressed right now with the new job and life changes you mentioned on the Nishijima Roshi thread. That probably has you a bit off balance.

    We are all separate now,this is fact.So we can practice.
    Sawaki Roshi once said ...

    You can’t even trade a single fart with the next guy. Each and every one of us has to live out his own life. Don’t waste time thinking about who’s most talented.

    ●屁ひとつだって、人と貸し借りできんやないか。人人みな「自己」を生きねばならない。お前とわしとどちら が器量がいいか悪いかーそんなこと比べてみんかてええ。


    Please teach me about checking method.
    Find your own, but here is mine.

    When I was in the hospital room with my nearly dying daughter, crying yet completely at peace ... as one.

    When the sun rose, and it was so beautiful ... and I did not try to hold on to it or make it more.

    When the car crashed, and that was just what was. I was shaking for a time, took some time to heal ... but somehow it was just what was.

    As I get older, the time passes, I get even older, health this and that... and all not a problem.

    When there are big problems in my life which I work to fix (like with you, Mr. K. and everyone ) .... but also feeling nothing to fix. Fix and no fix as one.

    When my best friend died last year, and I missed him so much and grieved at the loss ... yet felt no loss at all, all as one. Big Buddha Smile crossed my face as a tear came down my eye.

    When I find my heart opening to other people.

    Those are just examples, but each and every day has so many "litmus test" opportunities to put this Practice to the test.

    Stuff like that. Find your own.

    You know it when you taste it.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-20-2016 at 12:48 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Konan,
    I disagree with everyone. Don't check yourself. It's just another game of the ego. Just sit and don't be so concerned about where and with whom you are sitting with.

    Will sit now
    This is truth!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Let Antaiji be Antaiji, Annonji be Annonji, Treeleaf be Treeleaf.

    When is Rome, sit as the Romans sit.

    郷に座っては郷に座え




    Here at Treeleaf, I recommend a kind of "self checking method" (or better said "self-non-self checking method"

    自己チェック方法 = 自己非自己チェック方法

    When this Way is "working well" amid all the sunny days and storms of family job money and pride, life and death, sickness and health loss and gain, all the chaos of Samsara ...

    ... one just knows for how one now sees right through all the chaos of Samsara even amid all the chaos of Samsara. At Antaiji, one might know by how well one digs a hole, cuts down a tree, proper sitting posture for 10 hours ... here we know by how well we face flat tires, crying babies, happy babies, cancer, cancer cures, birthday parties, beautiful mountains, ugly urban scenes, a single flower or blade of grass ...

    ときにこの方法は、すべての嵐ファミリージョブお金と誇り、生と死、病気や健康の損失と利得、輪廻のすべて の混乱の中で、「うまく機能して"されています...

    ...一つはただ一つ、今でも輪廻のすべての混乱の中で輪廻のすべての混乱を介して正見ている方法について は知っています。安泰寺で、1は1つが、穴を掘る, 10時間のための適切な着座姿勢、我々がすることによって知っているここに...木をカットダウンどれだけ によって知っているかもしれないどれだけ私たちは、フラットタイヤ、泣いて赤ちゃん、幸せな赤ちゃん、癌、 癌の治す、誕生日パーティー、美しい山々、醜いに直面都市のシーン... 一輪の花、草の刃 ...

    古い禅みんなが言ったように、「一つは、熱いとして熱い, 冷温水などの冷水を知っています。」

    As the old Zen Guys said, "One knows cold water as cold and hot water as hot. "

    Gassho, J

    SatToday

    PS - It is my considered belief, talking with a lot of Zen folks over the years, that in the old days the Koan Zazen folks knew when someone "passed a Koan", not so much by the "right answer" they gave in the Dokusan room, but more by seeing their total behavior day in day out, how they reacted to life's crap in the monastery.

    誰かが唯一の "正解"彼らは獨參ルームで与えたが、一日中そこに総行動の日に基づいて、「公案を通過した」ときに、古い 時代に公案座禅の人々は知っていた、彼らは人生のイベントに反応する方法による.

    Actually, more than the Teacher knowing, it was the Teacher seeing the confidence in the student's life, and knowing that the student knew. Thus even then, it was a kind of self-not-self checking method.

    実際には、知っている先生よりも、それは弟子の生活の中で自信を見て先生があって、弟子が知っていたことを 知っています。これはその時でさえ、それは自己非自己チェック方法のようなものでした
    And this is truth!! Not two!!

    This thread is actually making clearer how Treeleaf, Antaiji, other Zendo, no difference... Konan, you are struggling with the same mental formations we all do, regardless of where or with whom we sit.

    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by willow View Post
    Thank you for your answer to Konan's question Jundo
    Yes, it's a lovely description of "checking." Thank you Jundo.

    Gassho,
    Alan
    sat today
    Shōmon

  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    I disagree with everyone. Don't check yourself. It's just another game of the ego. Just sit and don't be so concerned about where and with whom you are sitting with. :-)

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

    Actually I agree with Jishin. -) 😊😁😃

    SAT today
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  41. #41
    Mp
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    Just sit and don't be so concerned about where and with whom you are sitting with. :-)
    Zendo or no Zendo, just sit. If the Zendo is in your heart, if the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha are in your heart, then this is good zazen, this is good practice. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    #sattoday

  42. #42
    Nindo
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyonin View Post
    Since there are no Zen temples in Mexico, I have to go to wherever I can if time and money allow.
    Kyonin, this may only be a matter of time:

    http://www.joseshinzanpalma.org/

    (Of course I realize that Mexico is a big country and Shinzan may set up shop far away from you eventually ....)

    Gassho
    Nindo

  43. #43
    Shingen..."Zendo or no Zendo, just sit"
    Absoultely!

    Reminds me a little of what Bruce Lee said about the name, Jeet Kune Do. He said take what you can use, discard the rest. It's just a name.

    Gassho
    Frank
    Sattoday

  44. #44
    Jeremy
    Guest
    I disagree with everyone. Don't check yourself. It's just another game of the ego. Just sit and don't be so concerned about where and with whom you are sitting with.
    Well, another game is to check your own ego (not while sitting, I hasten to add).

    From Kosho Uchiyama, translated by Abbot Muhô: http://antaiji.org/archives/eng/kosh...ama-monk.shtml
    You should not forget though that to practice the Buddha way means to let go of the self and practice egolessness. To let go off the self and practice egolessness again means to let go off the measuring stick that we are always carrying around with us in our brains.
    Others talk about the ego as acting like a self-referential filter through which we see the world.

    How far have you let go of the measuring stick? How far do your perceptions, thoughts and actions reflect your ego?

    If you're moving house, do you look for another house which fits your idea of your own social status, or will you be grateful to have a roof over your head?
    When someone criticizes something you did, do you get agitated and upset, or do you clearly see their point of view and what needs to be done?
    And so on with questions which reveal your own sense of self...

    I don't even know if I would want to pass these checks It's illuminating to think about serious Zen dudes like Kodo Sawaki and Kosho Uchiyama in this light.

    step lightly... stay free...
    Jeremy
    st

  45. #45
    I have seen some things and read some things over the years that indicate you must leave home to join a monastery, because if you do not live in a truly Buddhist environment, it is nearly impossible to practice because of the distractions of home life. What I think is wonderful about Treeleaf is that we are all learning how to make home and all of life a practice environment. We can't just go to the zendo and then drop it and go home. The zendo is everywhere and we can't drop it at all. We all are right here, practicing all the time. No home to leave. No illusion of austerity.

    I watch videos of things going on at Antaiji and Tassajara and other lovely places and sometimes I feel that I do not have "that." I need "that." But there is no "that." That is just my imagination conjuring up an image of what I think Practice looks like and comparing it to my own way of living. What is happening in those places of practice is no different from what happens in my mind or from what happens in my own home, although it looks a lot more organized. We just sleep, sit, eat, clean, and go to the bathroom. Just taking care of life and trying not to become distracted by illusions. One big illusion for me is a perceived difference between my practice forms and another person's. If we are both sincere, there is no difference.

    Gassho, sat today
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  46. #46
    Kyotai
    Guest
    Very well said.

    Gassho, Kyotai
    Sat today


    Quote Originally Posted by Geika View Post
    I have seen some things and read some things over the years that indicate you must leave home to join a monastery, because if you do not live in a truly Buddhist environment, it is nearly impossible to practice because of the distractions of home life. What I think is wonderful about Treeleaf is that we are all learning how to make home and all of life a practice environment. We can't just go to the zendo and then drop it and go home. The zendo is everywhere and we can't drop it at all. We all are right here, practicing all the time. No home to leave. No illusion of austerity.

    I watch videos of things going on at Antaiji and Tassajara and other lovely places and sometimes I feel that I do not have "that." I need "that." But there is no "that." That is just my imagination conjuring up an image of what I think Practice looks like and comparing it to my own way of living. What is happening in those places of practice is no different from what happens in my mind or from what happens in my own home, although it looks a lot more organized. We just sleep, sit, eat, clean, and go to the bathroom. Just taking care of life and trying not to become distracted by illusions. One big illusion for me is a perceived difference between my practice forms and another person's. If we are both sincere, there is no difference.

    Gassho, sat today

  47. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Geika View Post
    I have seen some things and read some things over the years that indicate you must leave home to join a monastery, because if you do not live in a truly Buddhist environment, it is nearly impossible to practice because of the distractions of home life. What I think is wonderful about Treeleaf is that we are all learning how to make home and all of life a practice environment. We can't just go to the zendo and then drop it and go home. The zendo is everywhere and we can't drop it at all. We all are right here, practicing all the time. No home to leave. No illusion of austerity.

    I watch videos of things going on at Antaiji and Tassajara and other lovely places and sometimes I feel that I do not have "that." I need "that." But there is no "that." That is just my imagination conjuring up an image of what I think Practice looks like and comparing it to my own way of living. What is happening in those places of practice is no different from what happens in my mind or from what happens in my own home, although it looks a lot more organized. We just sleep, sit, eat, clean, and go to the bathroom. Just taking care of life and trying not to become distracted by illusions. One big illusion for me is a perceived difference between my practice forms and another person's. If we are both sincere, there is no difference.

    Gassho, sat today
    I like this a lot. Expressed so well, Geika. Thank you.

    Gassho,
    Alan
    sat today
    Shōmon

  48. #48
    Geika....well said.
    its not just what we do, or don't do, in a monastery or Zendo. As others stated, a great thing about Treeleaf is we practice IN every day life.
    Weve read of some who go to a church, temple, etc to learn "all that is good", and then curse and cut off the first person in the parking lot as they leave. What was learned? Where is your practice?

    Not dissing anyone for being human, but we do aspire certain precepts, do we not? And here at Treeleaf, we have the opportunity to blend and put into practice, at every moment, what we learn.

    and once you've grasped all that...drop it. Let it go.

    Frank
    Sat today...will be sitting again

  49. #49
    Treeleaf Priest / Engineer Sekishi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    However, doing so has given me a great respect for the several great Japanese priests ... such as Shunryu Suzuki ... who struggled to teach westerners in sometimes halting English. I have become convinced that several of the most "profound" teachings in "Zen Mind Beginners Mind" sound more like a mistranslation due to his wrestling to explain Zen in a foreign language! I barely understand what I am saying in English sometimes during a Talk ... What must it sound like in Japanese!?!
    I love Suzuki Roshi's expression "things as it is". Sometimes speaking English as a second language allowed him great Upaya by intentionally bending grammar around a bit. "Things as it is": "different is not separate", "form is no other than emptiness". Beautiful!

    It is a phrase I've come across a number of times in his teachings, but a quick Google search turns up this:
    http://cuke.com/pdf-2013/srl/v29-1-u...ous-stones.pdf

    Gassho,
    Sekishi
    #SatToday
    Sekishi | 石志 | He/him | Better with a grain of salt, but best ignored entirely.

  50. #50
    Nindo
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Geika View Post
    I watch videos of things going on at Antaiji and Tassajara and other lovely places and sometimes I feel that I do not have "that." I need "that." But there is no "that." That is just my imagination conjuring up an image of what I think Practice looks like and comparing it to my own way of living. What is happening in those places of practice is no different from what happens in my mind or from what happens in my own home, although it looks a lot more organized. We just sleep, sit, eat, clean, and go to the bathroom. Just taking care of life and trying not to become distracted by illusions.
    Exactly. I used to have a lot of remorse about not being able to go off to a monastery for a year or so. Then I realized they would give me a job there - a kitchen job, or cleaning, or office work, or gardening, or laundry ... Hey, I already have ALL of those! And that's where practice happens, and where the proof of your practice will be in the (actually cooked or figurative) pudding.

    Gassho
    Nindo

    PS That said, I will still make an effort this year to attend a local weekend retreat and possibly a week-long sesshin further away. I know it's a blessing that my life circumstances may allow this.

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