If Dogen worked for me......

[Jundo]

Just let yourself feel so, psyche yourself into feeling so if you need, fake it until you make it. Pretend that you are sitting there feeling in the bones "this is complete" and, well, it may actually begin to seem so.

Once I was in a school play, Death of a Salesman, playing one of the sons. Nervous, stage fright. Head full of all manner of thoughts and "what ifs". Suddenly, I put that aside, said to myself that I would just fake and feel that I was a confident actor ... and my fake confidence became real as real can be. I really embodied the part.

Olympic athletes visualize, psyche themselves, put aside other thoughts and considerations. Why not just try to do so too? If Zazen is a "enactment ritual", pretend you are Buddha and Ancestors sitting.

Am I telling you to be false and fake it? Actually, since in Buddhist terms the feelings of lack and separation are considered the "false" and the "delusion", I am telling you actually to "unfake it till you unmake it" to embody what you have been all along (thus we say more a "non-making" for it has always been so though hidden by your delusive thoughts). You are "pretending" to attain the real, so maybe it is more an "undoing of pretending". What we take to be "reality" is the "fictional theatre" after all, so I am advising you to "psyche" yourself into the "unrole".

One time, many years ago, I was feeling darkly depressed, hopeless and uneasy. I decided to pretend (yes, just pretend to myself) that I was actually quite happy, hopeful and content. I plastered a fake grin on my face, and thought positive thoughts. Guess what? After just a few minutes of trying to pretend, like an actor playing a role, I actually started to feel so. I believe that that moment was the first step to my gaining control over the years of depression that had plagued me as a young man.

Ever experience a sense in life of the "timeless", or that one moment contains all moments of time? That all is interconnected? Even if the memory is vague to you now, pretend it is strong. Sit with the self-conviction in the bones that "this moment of sitting is all time, is all connection, is all phenomena right here". Use "method acting" or, in this case "non-method acting".

This, I advise our sitters ...

If you simply sit with the attitude that your Zazen in that moment is "perfectly whole, just complete unto itself, without borders and duration, not long or short, nothing to add or take away, containing all moments and no moments in "this one moment" ... then IT IS! IT IS because you learn to treat and taste it as so. Your learning how to treat it as so, makes it so. If you can learn to sit there feeling about Zazen, and all of life, that "there is not one thing to add or take away" ... then, guess what: there is not one thing to add or take away precisely because you feel that way. Each moment is perfectly whole when you can see each moment as perfectly whole. Time stops when you stop thinking about time. Each instant of time is perfect when you think it perfect.

Curtain Up!

Gassho, J

SatToday

[dharmasponge]

Thanks Jundo, sounds almost Tantric in terms of bringing the goal into the present. Like Generation Stage, seeing yourself as a deity until it actually happens. Just a comparison.

I do like the idea of 'Fake it till you Make it'

SatToday

[tlap]

Interesting thread, this. I spent way too much time having a mental conversation with Dogen after reading just the title alone. It was a bit of a one-sided conversation, since I have struggled to understand one sentence in ten of what he wrote.

Here is what I said:

Mr. Dogen, you do understand that this is a working weaver's studio. The work is hard and the hours are long, but the work allows this small piece of land to be protected from development, and allows the woodland birds and animals to seek sanctuary here. Just look out the window and see. But please keep weaving. At least you have adapted well to the simple ways here. Be sure to take a wool blanket and put on another vest when you sit on cold days. That's as much heat as there is. Weaving will keep you warm. I know you believe that longer periods of just sitting are ideal, but we do not have an entire community of monastics to help with the chores. It's just us. When you get better at weaving, you won't have to count each treadle you press or look at the draft. Then, this 'thinking, not thinking' that you speak of will be possible. But please keep weaving.

Perhaps you would rather bring in some water to wash fleece or chop wood for the stove? I understand that these chores in particular have a traditional relationship to the path of enlightenment.

And so on. It was an interesting conversation, reminding me that I am a plain person, plain spoken and barely keeping my head afloat in the sea of words that dances around this practice. At days end, the body aches and the print blurs on the screen or page. I fall asleep in zazen. If anything keeps me going, it is samu, work as practice. A hand spinner touches every inch of the yarn twice, once to spin it and again to ply the strands of yarn together. At the loom each inch of yarn passes through the fingers again, dressing the loom and weaving the cloth. This is my practice, my comprehension of mindfulness. The same holds true of chopping vegetables for soup and washing up the dishes afterward.

Is there a place in the Soto tradition for more work and less study? For those who have not the luxury of just sitting? If not, Mr. Dogen may have to find a new job.

Gassho
Trish
sat today

[Byokan]

Interesting thread, this. I spent way too much time having a mental conversation with Dogen after reading just the title alone. It was a bit of a one-sided conversation, since I have struggled to understand one sentence in ten of what he wrote.

Here is what I said:

Mr. Dogen, you do understand that this is a working weaver's studio. The work is hard and the hours are long, but the work allows this small piece of land to be protected from development, and allows the woodland birds and animals to seek sanctuary here. Just look out the window and see. But please keep weaving. At least you have adapted well to the simple ways here. Be sure to take a wool blanket and put on another vest when you sit on cold days. That's as much heat as there is. Weaving will keep you warm. I know you believe that longer periods of just sitting are ideal, but we do not have an entire community of monastics to help with the chores. It's just us. When you get better at weaving, you won't have to count each treadle you press or look at the draft. Then, this 'thinking, not thinking' that you speak of will be possible. But please keep weaving.

Perhaps you would rather bring in some water to wash fleece or chop wood for the stove? I understand that these chores in particular have a traditional relationship to the path of enlightenment.

And so on. It was an interesting conversation, reminding me that I am a plain person, plain spoken and barely keeping my head afloat in the sea of words that dances around this practice. At days end, the body aches and the print blurs on the screen or page. I fall asleep in zazen. If anything keeps me going, it is samu, work as practice. A hand spinner touches every inch of the yarn twice, once to spin it and again to ply the strands of yarn together. At the loom each inch of yarn passes through the fingers again, dressing the loom and weaving the cloth. This is my practice, my comprehension of mindfulness. The same holds true of chopping vegetables for soup and washing up the dishes afterward.

Is there a place in the Soto tradition for more work and less study? For those who have not the luxury of just sitting? If not, Mr. Dogen may have to find a new job.

Gassho
Trish
sat today

Trish,

so beautiful, thank you. Deep bows to this practice.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[Jundo]

Interesting thread, this. I spent way too much time having a mental conversation with Dogen after reading just the title alone. It was a bit of a one-sided conversation, since I have struggled to understand one sentence in ten of what he wrote.

Here is what I said:

Mr. Dogen, you do understand that this is a working weaver's studio. The work is hard and the hours are long, but the work allows this small piece of land to be protected from development, and allows the woodland birds and animals to seek sanctuary here. Just look out the window and see. But please keep weaving. At least you have adapted well to the simple ways here. Be sure to take a wool blanket and put on another vest when you sit on cold days. That's as much heat as there is. Weaving will keep you warm. I know you believe that longer periods of just sitting are ideal, but we do not have an entire community of monastics to help with the chores. It's just us. When you get better at weaving, you won't have to count each treadle you press or look at the draft. Then, this 'thinking, not thinking' that you speak of will be possible. But please keep weaving.

Perhaps you would rather bring in some water to wash fleece or chop wood for the stove? I understand that these chores in particular have a traditional relationship to the path of enlightenment.

And so on. It was an interesting conversation, reminding me that I am a plain person, plain spoken and barely keeping my head afloat in the sea of words that dances around this practice. At days end, the body aches and the print blurs on the screen or page. I fall asleep in zazen. If anything keeps me going, it is samu, work as practice. A hand spinner touches every inch of the yarn twice, once to spin it and again to ply the strands of yarn together. At the loom each inch of yarn passes through the fingers again, dressing the loom and weaving the cloth. This is my practice, my comprehension of mindfulness. The same holds true of chopping vegetables for soup and washing up the dishes afterward.

Is there a place in the Soto tradition for more work and less study? For those who have not the luxury of just sitting? If not, Mr. Dogen may have to find a new job.

Gassho
Trish
sat today

[Jinyo]

Thanks Jundo, sounds almost Tantric in terms of bringing the goal into the present. Like Generation Stage, seeing yourself as a deity until it actually happens. Just a comparison.

I do like the idea of 'Fake it till you Make it'

SatToday

Not disagreeing Tony - but doesn't this resonate in some way with CBT/mindfulness practice?

Gassho

Willow

sat today

[Jinyo]

Interesting thread, this. I spent way too much time having a mental conversation with Dogen after reading just the title alone. It was a bit of a one-sided conversation, since I have struggled to understand one sentence in ten of what he wrote.

Here is what I said:

Mr. Dogen, you do understand that this is a working weaver's studio. The work is hard and the hours are long, but the work allows this small piece of land to be protected from development, and allows the woodland birds and animals to seek sanctuary here. Just look out the window and see. But please keep weaving. At least you have adapted well to the simple ways here. Be sure to take a wool blanket and put on another vest when you sit on cold days. That's as much heat as there is. Weaving will keep you warm. I know you believe that longer periods of just sitting are ideal, but we do not have an entire community of monastics to help with the chores. It's just us. When you get better at weaving, you won't have to count each treadle you press or look at the draft. Then, this 'thinking, not thinking' that you speak of will be possible. But please keep weaving.

Perhaps you would rather bring in some water to wash fleece or chop wood for the stove? I understand that these chores in particular have a traditional relationship to the path of enlightenment.

And so on. It was an interesting conversation, reminding me that I am a plain person, plain spoken and barely keeping my head afloat in the sea of words that dances around this practice. At days end, the body aches and the print blurs on the screen or page. I fall asleep in zazen. If anything keeps me going, it is samu, work as practice. A hand spinner touches every inch of the yarn twice, once to spin it and again to ply the strands of yarn together. At the loom each inch of yarn passes through the fingers again, dressing the loom and weaving the cloth. This is my practice, my comprehension of mindfulness. The same holds true of chopping vegetables for soup and washing up the dishes afterward.

Is there a place in the Soto tradition for more work and less study? For those who have not the luxury of just sitting? If not, Mr. Dogen may have to find a new job.

Gassho
Trish
sat today

'Plain' words spun into gold Trish - thank you so much.



Willow

sat today

[dharmasponge]

Not disagreeing Tony - but doesn't this resonate in some way with CBT/mindfulness practice?

Gassho

Willow

sat today

The Mindfulness I have been witness to as a CBT therapist is so far removed from Buddhist practice, it needs to be renamed. I have sat in classes and been given a sultana to concentrate on....feel, taste etc...! I mean I think I get it....but then I also get Monty Python!

There may be some overtones of cognitive restructuring in there but I think the Tantric agenda is a different thong altogether.

Tony...

Sat today

[Jishin]

Hi Tony,

As a therapist you know that you don't do CBT in spite of what you may tell your patients. You do Eclectic - whatever works. For me, I adapt Shikantaza to meet my particular path. I suspect everybody does it a little different too. They do what works. This being so, there is no right way nor wrong way to do it as long as you stop chasing your shadow. Just my opinion.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Kyonin]

Thank you Kokuu.

Pretty much what I think and how I see things.

Just today, when my zazen timer rang the ending bell, I realized I had this huge smile in my face. My 40 minutes just went away like water.

Yes! One smiles a lot in this practice.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatAndSmiledToday

Hi Tony

I love your questions as they force me to consider what is right at the heart of Zen practice and, as normal, a good discussion has ensued. It is also a challenge to put things in English rather than Zen speak. Zen speak can be helpful to some folk but it can also be a total turn-off.

My take on shikantaza/enlightenment is that dukkha arises from wanting things to be different than they are, creating a split and emotional friction. By sitting with things just as they are and not judging that, dukkha falls away.

However, an important 'but' is that if we take an attitude of achieving something onto the cushion we are saying we need things to be different so the split is already there at the beginning of practice. Charlotte Joko Beck noted that it is not uncommon for Buddhists to drop ideas of wanting a better job/car/relationship as the answer to their dissatisfaction but to replace those as answers with satori/enlightenment. Whenever we say that life cannot be good enough without enlightenment we are setting aside our happiness now for some unknown future and thereby creating dukkha.

When we sit upright fully immersed in things as they are, eventually a smile comes from deep within and we think 'this, right here, right now, it is enough.' May not be as blinding as satori emerging from intense koan practice but dropping the striving mind brings a sense of peace and relief and allows us to engage fully with life in this very moment. As long as we are expecting something from practice, even this, rather than just paying attention to life, separation from life will remain. Expect nothing more than life as it is. Each practice, as each moment in life, is its own unique event, not a precursor to something else. Just as we enjoy music for its own sake rather than think of what we are achieving by listening to it, a similar attitude can be helpful in sitting.

Hope that is plain speak enough.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday (with my daughter and a guided meditation called 'Sitting Still Like a Frog'!)

[Jeremy]

Thinking aloud here...

This part makes sense to me as something one might do in Zazen:

... Pretend that you are sitting there feeling in the bones "this is complete" and, well, it may actually begin to seem so...

but this part doesn't sound right to me:

If Zazen is an "enactment ritual", pretend you are Buddha and Ancestors sitting.

This sounds like making a concept of Buddha and Ancestors and that's something you should throw out, not pretend to be.

step lightly... stay free...
Jeremy
st

[Jinyo]

The Mindfulness I have been witness to as a CBT therapist is so far removed from Buddhist practice, it needs to be renamed. I have sat in classes and been given a sultana to concentrate on....feel, taste etc...! I mean I think I get it....but then I also get Monty Python!

There may be some overtones of cognitive restructuring in there but I think the Tantric agenda is a different thong altogether.

Tony...

Sat today

I dare say there are therapists who teach mindfulness meditation in a good way and others who are perhaps formulaic and not so good.

I don't think the Mindfulness movement pretends that it is Buddhist practice so I don't see why it needs to be renamed, as Buddhism doesn't have sole claim to a 'word' that can be used in different ways to mean different things. Practitioners like John Kabat-Zinn are
honest in their appraisal of the links with and influence of Buddhism (which in itself is another descriptor for many different forms/flavours of practice/belief) but nowhere have I seen it written that they are claiming to teach Buddhism.

There is a wonderful book written by Saki Santorelli (Heal Thy Self - Lessons on Mindfulness in Medicine). The raisin exercise is in there
somewhere The point is - 'what' Santorelli encouraged in his patients - how he was with them - how he encouraged them to breath through stress and physical pain - how he encouraged attention to the moment and going with the flow - not causing further stress by
fighting sensations - this is mindfulness as conceived in Buddhism.

I agree with what Jishin wrote too.

Gassho

Willow

sat today

[Jundo]

but this part doesn't sound right to me:

Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
If Zazen is an "enactment ritual", pretend you are Buddha and Ancestors sitting.

This sounds like making a concept of Buddha and Ancestors and that's something you should throw out, not pretend to be.

Yes, don't make them a concept or separate object. So, please embody the role and pretend (or "unpretend" since supposedly we are moving from "delusion" to Reality, and this so called "real world" is the pretense in which we are role playing) that there is not the least separation or objectification. Pretend that you have radically stopped looking for him because here all along. Act as if one feels it in the marrow of the bones, as if the bone is no longer looking somewhere distant for the bone, and simply finding the bony boneness.

Then, get up from the cushion, chop wood and haul water, and go help Trish with her weaving.

Thanks Jundo, sounds almost Tantric in terms of bringing the goal into the present. Like Generation Stage, seeing yourself as a deity until it actually happens. Just a comparison.

Dogenologist Taigen Leighton made that point in the essay I linked to above about "enactment ritual" ...

For Dogen and others, Zen shares with the Vajrayana tradition the heart of spiritual activity and praxis as the enactment of buddha awareness and physical presence, rather than aiming at developing a perfected, formulated understanding. ...

http://www.ancientdragon.org/dharma/...actment_ritual

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jeremy]

I have sat in (Mindfulness) classes and been given a sultana to concentrate on....feel, taste etc...

I came across the raisin eating exercise about 25 years ago at a Friends of the Western Buddhist Order (now Triratna) course in Mindfulness of Breathing, so for me it's associated with Buddhism

Where this thread has gone reminds me of a passage from Shunryu Suzuki's "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" which brings together eating and ideas about attaining Buddhahood nicely:

... You should just polish the tile; that is our practice. The purpose of practice is not to make a tile a jewel. Just continue sitting; that is practice in its true sense. It is not a matter of whether or not it is possible to attain Buddhahood, whether or not it is possible to make a tile a jewel. Just to work and live in this world with this understanding is the most important point. That is our practice. That is true zazen. So we say, "When you eat, eat!" You should eat what is there, you know. Sometimes you do not eat it. Even though you are eating, your mind is somewhere else. You do not taste what you have in your mouth. As long as you can eat when you are eating, you are all right. Do not worry a bit. It means you are you yourself.

step lightly... stay free...
Jeremy
st

[Sozan]

This part makes sense to me as something one might do in Zazen:

Originally Posted by Jundo

... Pretend that you are sitting there feeling in the bones "this is complete" and, well, it may actually begin to seem so...

I recently experienced a brief moment of clarity/insight (kensho? whatever). I find that when i bring the spirit of this experience to my sitting, it is a great aid to my focus. I don't have the experience again, but the mere shadow of that insight brings joy to my zazen.

Gassho,
John

s@2day

[Jishin]

Hi,

If you got enlightenment, clarity or Kensho, then what? What could you possibly do with it?

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Mp]

Hi,

If you got enlightenment, clarity or Kensho, then what? What could you possibly do with it?

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Reboot, and start again! Is kensho not in each moment? How many moments are in a day? A week? A lifetime? =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Jundo]

I recently experienced a brief moment of clarity/insight (kensho? whatever). I find that when i bring the spirit of this experience to my sitting, it is a great aid to my focus. I don't have the experience again, but the mere shadow of that insight brings joy to my zazen.

Ah, but don't chase after recreating that moment either like some old flame you are trying to rekindle. Rather than revive an old love affair, be totally with the one in before you. Sit with the Wholeness and Clarity of just what is in this moment's Zazen.

As Shingen says ...

Reboot, and start again! Is kensho not in each moment? How many moments are in a day? A week? A lifetime? =)

As I wrote about "the Whole Bus Trip Kensho" above, do not try to get back to the Grand Canyon. The Vast Canyon is Wondrous, yet each bumpy pothole on the bus trip holds the Whole Grand Canyon when just seen.

When not with the one you love, love the one you with ...



Gassho, Jundo the Driver

SatToday on the Bus

[Oheso]

If you got enlightenment, clarity or Kensho, then what? What could you possibly do with it?

see here, now?

see here now!

gassho, O who this day sat

[Jishin]

I was hoping to get me some Kensho, take a picture of it and make copies for sale.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Oheso]

you can let go of that idea!



g, O,wst

[Kyonin]

I was hoping to get me some Kensho, take a picture of it and make copies for sale.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Can I have one, please? I think once I got myself a little kensho. Then I went on to wash the dishes and to work.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Jishin]

Can I have one, please? I think once I got myself a little kensho. Then I went on to wash the dishes and to work.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

Don't say I never did anything for you. Here is your certificate:

www.genuine.kensho.certificate.com:

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jishin]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Yugen]

Has to be written with fat crayons
Deep bows
Yugen


sat2day

[scareyw]

A picture of kensho? Just photograph a mirror, outdoors.

[Getchi]

Thinking aloud here...

This part makes sense to me as something one might do in Zazen:

but this part doesn't sound right to me:

This sounds like making a concept of Buddha and Ancestors and that's something you should throw out, not pretend to be.

step lightly... stay free...
Jeremy
st

If I may, in my humble opinion; how are "you" different to any of this? Does it pass through you like clouds? or is that a "you" which is constantly changing its appearance?

If these thoughts are not "truly you" then just what the hell are you? Is there a word for it?

The root of suffering is Desire; for name, home and infamy. The absence of longing (attachment) is - what exactly?

When we exist with no desire to possess, then what are we? free? Are we stil an "I"?


Many apologies if ive over-stepped, but this ouned like a heart-felt question to me.



Gassho,
Geoff.
SitsEveryDay

[Jundo]

Well, I think we are starting to get silly now and saying weird Zen stuff, me included. Maybe time to let this conversation settle?

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Sekishi]

I have nothing to add. I just wanted to say that you kids are a hoot, and thank you for this thread.

Gassho,
Sekishi
#SatToday
#KenshoSmensho1UlyssesSGrant

[Sozan]

Originally Posted by John C

I recently experienced a brief moment of clarity/insight (kensho? whatever). I find that when i bring the spirit of this experience to my sitting, it is a great aid to my focus. I don't have the experience again, but the mere shadow of that insight brings joy to my zazen.

Originally Posted by Jundo

Ah, but don't chase after recreating that moment either like some old flame you are trying to rekindle. Rather than revive an old love affair, be totally with the one in before you. Sit with the Wholeness and Clarity of just what is in this moment's Zazen.

As Shingen says ...

Reboot, and start again! Is kensho not in each moment? How many moments are in a day? A week? A lifetime? =)

As I wrote about "the Whole Bus Trip Kensho" above, do not try to get back to the Grand Canyon. The Vast Canyon is Wondrous, yet each bumpy pothole on the bus trip holds the Whole Grand Canyon when just seen.

At the risk of opening myself up to universal ridicule again, I'd like to clarify my position. I do "reboot, and start again" but I retain the memory of the "Grand Canyon" even though its a new trip.

Just a passenger,
john

s@2day

[Rich]

I don't think anyone intended to ridicule you. And I don't think it's wrong to experience some joy and peace in just sitting. But the ego is so tricky a warning is warranted. Just be yourself and don't worry about what others think. Thanks for your practice.

SAT today

[Jundo]

At the risk of opening myself up to universal ridicule again, I'd like to clarify my position. I do "reboot, and start again" but I retain the memory of the "Grand Canyon" even though its a new trip.

Just a passenger,
john

s@2day

No ridicule. Just the 3rd Base Coach trying to relay tips on his stance and throwing arm to the pitcher from a distance. In the end, you throw your own fast balls.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Getchi]

Apologies for talking weird, turns out its a lot harder to discuss this stuff then I first thought

Gassho
Geoff.

SatToday.

[Chiko]

Zazen envelopes all questions of "What is the point of zazen?" Very hard for me to realize without zazen.

It's a beautiful day beyond measure.

Indeed, even on a Monday with all these clouds!


Matt
SatToday