Sitting with lower back yain

[Ryumon]

I haven't been sitting for quite some time. I hurt my lower back in July, very seriously. I was in bed for a couple of weeks, and I needed a crutch for about two months. I've long had upper back pain, but this is the first time that I've had lower back pain, which is a whole different animal. I'm only just getting back to sitting, after doing the occasional sit on a stool in the past couple of months.

I have a buckwheat filled zafu, but it's a bit low. I saw on Amazon today that I can get taller zafus; mine is 15cm, I may buy one that's 22cm, which should be a bit more comfortable. As for the seiza, I can't find any that are taller than about 15cm. I prefer the zafu; I just feel more grounded on it, but the seiza is a good compromise.

I can't really tell if one or the other is better for my back. I was wondering if anyone who has lower back pain has any tips.

Gassho,

Kirk

#SatALittleBitToday

[Rich]

You sound like me about 25 years ago. The key to a strong back is strong abs.

I use a 3 inch high foam pillow under my standard size zafu.

SAT today

[Myosha]

Hello,

In no way a recommendation or advice: for decades this physician has pointed patients in a good direction -

https://play.google.com/store/books/...wB_w&gclsrc=ds

Personally worked.

Good luck.


Gassho
Myosha sat today

[Ryumon]

Myosha,

Thanks. I read that book some years ago, and, frankly, I found it to be nothing more than quackery. If I remember correctly, he claims that all back pain is caused by psychological problems. Nothing like actual disc damage, or scoliosis (I have slight scoliosis in my upper back). If the book helped you, great. It didn't when I read it.

There are a lot of books about back pain, and I've read several, because I do have long-term pain from the scoliosis. I think the reason a lot of them get good reviews is because people buy them when they are in pain, and, since most back pain resolves no matter what you do, they think that the book and its recommendations helped them. It's a tricky topic.

Sorry to sound so skeptical, and I do appreciate the recommendation. It's just I'm very skeptical about most books that claim to cure anything, and especially those that claim to help cure back pain.

Gassho,

Kirk

#SatALittleInPainToday

[Jishin]

Hi,

My solution has been to have various Zafus and seiza benches. When my back is hurting I hop from one to the other depending on the day.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

Hi Kirk,

One may recline as well. No problem.

The following was posted on another thread this week ...

Even the Buddha had a bad back and had to take it easy sometimes ...

The Sekha Sutta (M 53), for example, records how the Buddha
feels back-pains while on a visit to Kapila,vatthu:

Then he said to the venerable Ananda:
“Ananda, speak to the Sakyas of Kapilavatthu about the learner who has entered the way (to
awakening) (sekho pātipado). My back is aching; I will rest it.” (M 53,5), SD 21.14

The Avassuta Pariyāya S (S 35.243) records that the Buddha, after saying, “My back aches, so I will
stretch it,” and lies in the lion posture.

An old joke ...

The patient says, "Doctor, it hurts when I do this." Doctor says, "Then don't do that!" **

** (By the way, for other folks, I am not talking about the little, minor aches and pains that come from sitting. It is good to sometimes sit with those little discomforts, letting them be, paying them "no never mind", dropping aversions. I am talking about extreme pain or, as in this case, a physical condition which is being inflamed by sitting and could cause bodily harm. Best to avoid those).

Itchy nose, achy leg, earthquake ... when to move, when not?
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...-move-when-not

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Ryumon]

Jundo,

I know, but I find that my sitting is very different if I lie down or recline, compared to when I'm sitting up. I don't find the groove as easily when I'm lying down.

Oh, could you or someone fix the typo in the thread title? :-o

Gassho,

Kirk

[Mp]

The key to a strong back is strong abs.

This is an important point. If coming from an injury the body is going to be lacking in specific areas. Try doing some yoga or exercises to strengthen the core, but do it SLOWLY and take your time ... no rushing here. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Rich]

When sitting in a lying position it's important that the space body be cooler. This helps to avoid the sleep tendency.

I lost my groove in the 70's -) 😊

SAT today

[Ryan379]

I have a buckwheat filled zafu, but it's a bit low. I saw on Amazon today that I can get taller zafus; mine is 15cm, I may buy one that's 22cm, which should be a bit more comfortable. As for the seiza, I can't find any that are taller than about 15cm. I prefer the zafu; I just feel more grounded on it, but the seiza is a good compromise.

Have you tried turning your zafu on its side and sitting seiza on that? I used to do that on a buckwheat zafu and found it pretty comfortable

Gassho

Ryan

Sat Today

[Eishuu]

Hi, I cannot sit up for very long because of health problems so try to meditate lyng down. I know what you mean about it being different. My mind just drifts around when I lie down and isn't at all alert, or something like that; it's hard to put into words. Even with a cooler room it's the same. It definitely feels very different to sitting up.

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

[KellyRok]

Hi Kirk,

I have scoliosis, two curves- one in my upper spine (between shoulders) with a larger lower lumbar curve (30%). I injured a disc in my lower lumbar region a few years back. It was very bad and painful, I can definitely sympathize with you. Yes, having a strong core is important. But after you injure a disc, it is difficult to try to make the abs stronger at least for a little while.

I use a mountain seat zafu and use it to sit seiza. http://monasterystore.org/zafu/mountain-seat-zafu/

For me, it sits very high (as I'm short, with short legs it works well for me). I know they make a large mountain seat (I think it is close to 22 cm in height), both are made from buckwheat hulls. I can no longer sit Burmese or half lotus, so I sit seiza. It doesn't put as much pressure on the hips. I tend to have really tight hip and leg muscles and even with lots of stretching and yoga, I would still pull my spine out of place trying to sit Burmese or half lotus. This is only my experience, but I hope it helps a little. I have also used a stabilizer exercise ball to sit zazen. The ball takes the pressure off your sacrum and hips.

I hope you recover quickly and can find a position that works for you. Take care.

Gassho,
Kelly/Jinmei
sattoday

[Ryumon]

Thanks Kelly. That looks a lot like the one that I see on Amazon here in the UK:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B010LYL34G

That's an interesting idea sitting on a ball. I will have to look into that too.

Gassho,

Kirk

[Geika]

I can't offer any advice, but I can chant metta...

Sat today, gassho

[Joyo]

Hi Kirk, already a lot of good advice here. I have a lot of hip pain and issues with my sacrum. I like Kelly's idea of using an exercise ball. I've never tried that but I should. I agree reclining can affect your sitting. I've found that using my zafu as a pillow and resting my hands on my abdomen in the mudra does help. This is not the traditional way to sit at all, but I have found what also works for me is to sit on my bed with my back up against the wall and a buckwheat pillow supporting my lumbar area, my legs crossed half lotus and my hands still in the mudra. It makes it possible for me to still be sitting without focusing on the constant pain that traditional sitting causes.

I hope you can find something that works for you. I too will join in chanting metta for your back.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat toda

[Joyo]

And I agree that yoga is a good idea with back pain. Just please be careful, as you can make your back injuries worse. Don't do what I did----which was to push myself so hard that yoga started to make my sacrum issues much worse. I'm not sure about scoliosis, but I know with other back injuries, any yoga with twisting is not good. Restorative/hatha yoga is a good place to start for gentle stretching, then just some gentle yoga with strength is great also............along with walking and hiking =)

If you do a search on youtube "Lesley Fightmaster gentle" a bunch of great videos will show up. And Yoga with Olga is good also. I've just learned to stick to these two online instructors, and to be very careful when it comes to taking yoga classes with an instructor as they do not all know how to modify yoga for an injury.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Kakunen]

Start from feeling whole your body.Master Dogen said.仏道を習うは自己を習うなり。 Gassho.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

** Translation from Jundo: 仏道を習うは自己を習うなり - To study the buddha way is to study the self.

[Ryumon]

And I agree that yoga is a good idea with back pain. Just please be careful, as you can make your back injuries worse. Don't do what I did----which was to push myself so hard that yoga started to make my sacrum issues much worse. I'm not sure about scoliosis, but I know with other back injuries, any yoga with twisting is not good. Restorative/hatha yoga is a good place to start for gentle stretching, then just some gentle yoga with strength is great also............along with walking and hiking =)

Yes, most yoga exercises are dangerous for me. I learned that the hard way many years ago, when I thought that stretching and yoga were always good to do.

Gassho,

Kirk

[Ongen]

Jundo,

I know, but I find that my sitting is very different if I lie down or recline, compared to when I'm sitting up. I don't find the groove as easily when I'm lying down.

Oh, could you or someone fix the typo in the thread title? :-o

Gassho,

Kirk

Hi Kirk,

I have nothing to add to the great advice already given, I too switch between zafu, chair, bed or a seiza bench (one with one leg in the middle - makes slight adjustments possible) when my back is not allowing me to use a zafu.

Still I wonder, which groove are you looking for? And is it good or bad that the sitting is different?

Gassho

Ongen

Sat Today

[Ryumon]

When I try to meditate lying down, I generally get sleepy and my mind drifts more. But when I sit up, I am more awake. I also find that my mind wanders more when I am lying down.

Gassho,

Kirk

[Jundo]

Hi Kirk,

I have nothing to add to the great advice already given, I too switch between zafu, chair, bed or a seiza bench (one with one leg in the middle - makes slight adjustments possible) when my back is not allowing me to use a zafu.

Still I wonder, which groove are you looking for? And is it good or bad that the sitting is different?

Gassho

Ongen

Sat Today

I believe that Konan (Mr. K.) and Ongen speak wisely here.

More vital than feeling sleepy or awake, mind wandering or grooving or not, back aching or not ...

... it to sit as the total Completeness and Wholeness of just what is, not one iota lacking. Back aching is Aching Buddha Backing. Healthy or sick, no matter ... just Sun Faced Buddha Moon Faced Buddha (an old Koan meaning something like "just two sides of the no sided coin") Sitting, standing, reclining, walking, running or flying through the air ... Where Is There To Go?

Of course, better to be awake and not fall asleep, better not to be lost in thought, best to avoid the avoidable backaches. No problem. If a better Zafu or position helps heal the back, then sit that way. Of course, better to have health than sickness, so we see the doctor and take our medicine. Nonetheless, win or lose ... we sit As What Is.

However, no "groove" is ever needed. Sometimes groving, sometimes groveling. Groove or grooveless, all the Groovy Buddha.

All through the sitting, whether one is successful in easing the back and mind or not, pain or not, one must sit in the "Big Ok" of Just This. So, as Ongen says :

which groove are you looking for? And is it good or bad that the sitting is different?

We are wisely strange that way.

To continue the quote from Mr. K ...

自己をならふといふは、自己を忘るるなり、自己をわするるといふは、万法まんぽうに証せらるる なり

To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[somanaut]

This is more to the general topic of back pain, and not specifically to any of the mentioned issues of pain while sitting.
I see some recommendations for yoga. But one I would also point to is: try classical weightlifting exercises such as deadlift or single leg deadlifts (perhaps with no weight for a isometric hold), sometimes it's not about flexibility, but about pure strength. And no, such exercises won't impede your zazen, it takes years of specific and dedicated powerlifting without any mobility or stretching to make you less flexible. This isn't a criticism of yoga (used to practise and teach in the ashtanga lineage, before I returned to zazen). But my own 10+ years of chronic back pain (when standing, walking and sitting) was greatly diminished when I took up weightlifting this year. Not saying it will work for everyone, and of course be carefull when doing such strength work. But there are alternatives to yoga and physical therapy. And strength training can be as focused a practise as any yoga or tai chi. If you dislike gyms, invest in a few kettlebells, and voila exercises can be done in the comfort of your home.
Best Regards
Jesper
Sat Today