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Thread: The Heart Sutra

  1. #1

    The Heart Sutra

    Hello, all,

    I've recently been reading a book by Kazuaki Tanahashi and Joan Halifax, The Heart Sutra, which includes their intriguing new translation of the Heart Sutra. You can see the translation here:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=pQ...lation&f=false

    The most striking thing is that what is usually translated as 'emptiness' is here translated as 'boundlessness'! This makes so much difference to me in understanding it. I hope that it is equally accurate. (I was glad to see that Jundo thinks that Tanahashi's translations of Dogen are reliable.) It seems really revolutionary. The whole translation is quite beautiful as well.

    Any thoughts on this?

    L.

    _/\_

    st

  2. #2
    I see that the link above doesn't take one to the exact page on Google Books. You have to scroll down to the first page of Chapter 1.

  3. #3
    I am still waiting for mine to arrive!

    Yes, this "Emptiness" is not empty, or better said, it embodies all empty and full. I often try to express this as Fullness, Boundless, Wholeness ... and something as Dancing Dance ...

    Buddha-Basics (Part XVII) — The Dance of Emptiness
    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...e-of-Emptiness

    The Red Pine version, with many explanations and annotations, is also very good and highly recommended.

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Heart-Sutr.../dp/1593760825

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    Last edited by Jundo; 06-05-2015 at 08:33 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  4. #4
    I am sitting this course with Kaz and Roshi Joan Halifax next month - http://www.shambhala.com/courses/the-heart-sutra.html - over my summer break. 'Lesson 4' is on Emptiness:

    Shunyata or “zeroness” in Mahayana Buddhism means the lack of concrete boundaries among things and the lack of completely independent existence. All things are interconnected. In this lesson you will explore shunyata and contemplate the translation that Kaz and Roshi offer for this word: “boundlessness.”

    I am good with "lack of completely independent existence"; I am still trying to get my head around "boundlessness" as a translation of shunyata...

    A "lack of concrete boundaries between things" and "boundlessness" (I would read that word as: having no boundaries in a 'vastness' sense...) seem not to be the same thing to me...(???) maybe I'm misinterpreting; I am sure i'll find out when I get to 'lesson 4'...!

    Gassho,
    Anshu

    -sat today-


    Last edited by Anshu Bryson; 06-05-2015 at 08:51 AM.

  5. #5
    Hi,

    I liked Red Pine way way better. But that's just me.

    Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

  6. #6
    Finally able to figure out my kindle dramas (wouldn't sync; I've had three books in a queue for a month...!) and have Red Pine's now. Will have a look on the flight this evening!

    Gassho,
    Anshu

    -sat today-

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Anshu Bryson View Post
    I am good with "lack of completely independent existence"; I am still trying to get my head around "boundlessness" as a translation of shunyata...

    A "lack of concrete boundaries between things" and "boundlessness" (I would read that word as: having no boundaries in a 'vastness' sense...) seem not to be the same thing to me...(???) maybe I'm misinterpreting; I am sure i'll find out when I get to 'lesson 4'...!
    I offer that this "empty/boundlessness" is not unrelated to what was chewed on here ...

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post155043

    ... although I again caution that this is as much experiential as words. It is like the words "making love" or "marshmallows" or "Mozart" and the actual wordless experience of the sweetness of each. **

    Gassho, J

    SatToday

    ** Not to mention making love while listening to Mozart and gobbling marshmallows!
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  8. #8
    Jeremy
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    I offer that this "empty/boundlessness" is not unrelated to what was chewed on here ...
    Could it be that emptiness morphed into emptiness/boundlessness when Mahayana Buddhism got to China and bumped into Taoism?

    Gassho
    Jeremy
    Will sit this evening

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    Could it be that emptiness morphed into emptiness/boundlessness when Mahayana Buddhism got to China and bumped into Taoism?

    Gassho
    Jeremy
    Will sit this evening
    Hi Jeremy,

    Oh, I believe that is the general consensus among historians, that Chan/Zen is Indian Buddhism meeting Chinese sensibilities/Taoism. (Actually, not just any Taoism, but a particular flavor called rendered in English as "Dark Learning"). On the other hand, Daoism is not Zen nor Buddhism.

    This thread touches upon the topic some ...

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post126715

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  10. #10
    I had this book in my hands, at a local bookstore, but I put it down. I will check it out from the library (I absolutely love the library. lol) and will likely buy it, but the reason I put it down is the new word for emptiness.

    I think the common explanation goes (or how I've read and heard about it most often) is that Emptiness means things are empty of an independent self; empty can be confusing, because in English it makes one think of nothingness, a nihilistic approach that Buddhism is certainly not pointing to. Boundlessness is a good word, but I thought, do I really need another word for it? I don't know, maybe, or maybe not. I remember a while back commenting on emptiness thinking I had it. Hans mentioned something, and I replied, man I really thought I got it, but now I just don't know. His response was yeah, thats' the beginning. I'm paraphrasing, but the point is the "don't know".

    And I like that. Of course we need words to communicate, but I think (well I know I do this) that when we have a word or a definition of something we pinpoint it down, like we know that. But emptiness is beyond all of that, which is probably why there are so many words trying to describe it. lol

    I'm no expert on emptiness - I mean I"m just not an expert on any of this by any means; these are just musings. So I think it's good to read new translations. I like what Jundo says about having at least 3 separate translations on something because it gives a more complete picture of what the original work is trying to convey. I've read multiple translations on the Heart Sutra. I'm sure this is going to be good; Tanahashi really does good work, and I like the Upaya Zen Center (which is Joan Halifax Roshi's zendo - just in case someone didn't know that).

    But I wonder if I need yet another translation on this. I don't know if that makes sense -- and I know it's probably now completely tangential to this. hahahah

    I'm a bibliophile, and especially when it comes to Zen material, so I'm sure I'll read it.

    Gassho,

    Risho
    -sattoday
    Last edited by Risho; 06-05-2015 at 09:37 PM.

  11. #11
    Here is another translation of "Emptiness" ...



    MU!

    Which means .... NO! ...

    ... although this "NO!" is no and yes ... and no no ... no yes ... yes no ... yes yes ... no no yes ... no yes no ... and just MU! ....

    ... round and round mu goes ...

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  12. #12
    I find it funny how we need words, semantics, context on one hand, and then on the other there is the wordless understanding that we try to hard to pin down with words and it always escapes, but is unchanged. I suppose it is for accuracy of verbal understanding that I wish I could read the original languages and get the nuance. But we'll have to take the cultural transitions and transformations as written. My busy mind likes to imagine those times. Time goes from present to past. Chatter chatter...just breathe, Julie!

    Gassho
    sat today

  13. #13
    Dear Julie,

    A wise person said, "Words are the yoke/joke of philosophy."

    Know yourself, forget yourself. Then hug a baby.


    Gassho
    Myosha sat today
    "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by julie View Post
    I suppose it is for accuracy of verbal understanding that I wish I could read the original languages and get the nuance. But we'll have to take the cultural transitions and transformations as written. My busy mind likes to imagine those times. Time goes from present to past. Chatter chatter...just breathe, Julie!

    Gassho
    sat today
    Zen Words are often like pealing the onion to get to the core. One peals and peals, but in the end there is no there there.

    Actually, Dogen and many other Zen folks of old (who spoke and wrote a lot of words on Zen) did not really have a problem with all words, because some words are "turning words" which can fully express the inexpressible. Zen is about getting "beyond the words and letters", and the categories, valuations, divisions they represent. But Master Dogen also felt that the Silence was preaching right through the words too, but we must be tuned to hear. The categories, valuations and divisions are no problem for the eye undivided.

    More words on wordlessness here ...

    Words and Buddhist Ideas alone are not barriers! There is a time for all words and categories to drop away. There is a time for the dropping away of words and categories right in and through words and categories.

    Dogen ... the master wordsmith ... held well expressed language to be the very essence of Buddhist Truths. For Dogen, suchness was not a matter of rejecting or embracing silence or speaking (there are right moments for each) ... but of how what is said, the well turned and turning phrase. The right words and Buddhist ideas do not simply describe Truth, but dance Truth itself, are True Dancing. The moons illuminates all things ... words no less ... and words illuminate the moon.

    Properly Illuminated words are not simply 'the finger pointing at the moon which cannot be described in words'. Enlightened words are the Very Moonlight.

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post102273
    Gassho, J

    SatYpdau
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  15. #15
    Thank you, I think it's a beautiful translation.

    Gassho,


    Ongen / Vincent
    Sat Today
    Ongen (音源) - Sound Source

  16. #16
    Gassho, Ongen.

    L.

    st

  17. #17
    Hi guys,

    After now more than 20 years of practice and sitting, I learned that books and definitions can only take you so far. It comes the time that one needs to realize all what's been learned by just letting it all go and sit zazen.

    When sitting some times it comes a certain clarity, a feeling, a certainty that you finally understand super complex concepts like emptiness.

    Yes, everything is empty and is what is. Everything depends on everything to exist and it all belongs to a Whole bigger than what we can grasp with the monkey mind.

    Emptiness is Mu is All is Nothing is Complete is Here is There is No is Yes is US.

    And now this cup of coffee is full with emptiness.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    #SatToday
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyonin View Post
    Hi guys,

    After now more than 20 years of practice and sitting, I learned that books and definitions can only take you so far. It comes the time that one needs to realize all what's been learned by just letting it all go and sit zazen.

    When sitting some times it comes a certain clarity, a feeling, a certainty that you finally understand super complex concepts like emptiness.

    Yes, everything is empty and is what is. Everything depends on everything to exist and it all belongs to a Whole bigger than what we can grasp with the monkey mind.

    Emptiness is Mu is All is Nothing is Complete is Here is There is No is Yes is US.

    And now this cup of coffee is full with emptiness.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    #SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyonin View Post
    Hi guys,

    After now more than 20 years of practice and sitting, I learned that books and definitions can only take you so far. It comes the time that one needs to realize all what's been learned by just letting it all go and sit zazen.

    When sitting some times it comes a certain clarity, a feeling, a certainty that you finally understand super complex concepts like emptiness.

    Yes, everything is empty and is what is. Everything depends on everything to exist and it all belongs to a Whole bigger than what we can grasp with the monkey mind.

    Emptiness is Mu is All is Nothing is Complete is Here is There is No is Yes is US.

    And now this cup of coffee is full with emptiness.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    #SatToday
    Kyonin,

    While I understand what you are saying, I can't help but feeling that the call to 'just sit' is often quite dismissive. When we do sit, yes, we should 'just' sit. But we do, after all, spend most of our waking time 'not' sitting. We do live in this 'relative' world, and it is surely important to understand that there is 'the absolute AND the relative', not the absolute WITHOUT the relative.

    Our sitting practice is experiential, and so it should be. But, might I suggest that one does not come to an expression such as "Emptiness is Mu is All is Nothing is Complete is Here is There is No is Yes is US" by not having read, by not having thought, by not having discussed the concept of 'Emptiness', the concept of 'Mu', etc...?

    So, I take issue with the thought that we can 'just sit' and completely dismiss the intellectual component of life. We talk often of things being 'not one; not two'. Surely this is about recognising that the things we see as 'dual' actually have no independent existence, rather than dismissing or negating one part of the duality in favor of the other...?

    I have sat today. And will sit again this evening. But I will also read. Extensively (likely for longer than I will sit).

    I know that this is not a 'discussion forum' as such, but, if the answer to all questions is going to be 'just sit', does one simply stop asking the questions...?

    Gassho,
    Anshu

    -sat today-

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Anshu Bryson View Post
    So, I take issue with the thought that we can 'just sit' and completely dismiss the intellectual component of life. We talk often of things being 'not one; not two'. Surely this is about recognising that the things we see as 'dual' actually have no independent existence, rather than dismissing or negating one part of the duality in favor of the other...?
    That's right too.

    The little study and reading on Zen and other Buddhist Teachings, and the words of Teachers old and today, give shape and direction to our Practice. You may know the description of Zen as:

    "A special transmission beyond Scriptures,
    Not depending on words or letters,
    But pointing directly to the Mind,
    Seeing into one's true Nature,
    And realizing one's own Enlightenment."

    This teaching attributed to Master Bodhidharma has an interesting history. Though there were some radicals in interpreting its meaning who truly abandoned all learning, most of the great masters were great Buddhist scholars too (like Dogen, who often strikes me as a walking encyclopedia of Buddhist texts) ... and the fellows who burned their books were usually seasoned teachers who had already read them all! What is vital is that we learn from the words ... but do not take this as an intellectual pursuit and get -caught- by the words.

    Zazen without understanding the teachings of the Buddha and Ancestors is like formless clay. Study is necessary to properly mold the vessel being made. Yet, we see in/as/behind/through/with and without the words and letters, so it is called a teaching "beyond words and letters".

    It is rather like sailing: There is a time to read a book about sailing, study the maps and the weather reports. But then ... one must just put the reading away, get out on the open water and ... SAIL!

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    That's right too.

    The little study and reading on Zen and other Buddhist Teachings, and the words of Teachers old and today, give shape and direction to our Practice. You may know the description of Zen as:

    "A special transmission beyond Scriptures,
    Not depending on words or letters,
    But pointing directly to the Mind,
    Seeing into one's true Nature,
    And realizing one's own Enlightenment."

    This teaching attributed to Master Bodhidharma has an interesting history. Though there were some radicals in interpreting its meaning who truly abandoned all learning, most of the great masters were great Buddhist scholars too (like Dogen, who often strikes me as a walking encyclopedia of Buddhist texts) ... and the fellows who burned their books were usually seasoned teachers who had already read them all! What is vital is that we learn from the words ... but do not take this as an intellectual pursuit and get -caught- by the words.

    Zazen without understanding the teachings of the Buddha and Ancestors is like formless clay. Study is necessary to properly mold the vessel being made. Yet, we see in/as/behind/through/with and without the words and letters, so it is called a teaching "beyond words and letters".

    It is rather like sailing: There is a time to read a book about sailing, study the maps and the weather reports. But then ... one must just put the reading away, get out on the open water and ... SAIL!

    Gassho, J
    Being an avid sailor myself, I appreciate the analogy of putting the book away; one can certainly not 'sail' without getting in the boat! But, similarly, one might drown if alone in that boat with no knowledge of the sails, the rigging, etc...

    Not one; not two...


    Anshu

    -sat today-

  22. #22
    That's interesting how different people feel.
    I've never felt like drowning in Zazen - maybe that day will come, I'm new.
    I only feel threatened up to drowning by books and concepts I don't understand.
    Mu is OK, the calligraphy is beautiful.

    Gassho,
    Danny
    #sattoday

  23. #23
    Nindo
    Guest
    Different words work differently for different people.
    There will never be one definitive translation that makes everybody go - "ahhh, now I get it!"

    For example, I just didn't understand what was meant by actualizing/ realizing the practice. But "embody" makes sense to me.

    Boundlessness does not work for me. If it gets somebody else over a nihilistic or whatever stumbling block, hey, all the benefit to them!

    Gassho
    Nindo
    sattoday

  24. #24
    Hi Bryson!

    Oh I never say don't read. On the contrary! I read all the time, I learn all the time. Yes, you need a very big knowledge background in order to form up your own knowledge. I have never dismissed that fact. I spend a lot of hours of my day reading, researching and writing. It's part of who I am and I reckon I have never came close to zen if it wasn't for that love I have for knowledge.

    I am a strong believer that information makes life better because it calms and soothes when the chaos and ignorance could take control.

    That said, what I meant is that one must sit still and let all drop to allow the mind the processing time it may need in order to realize complex concepts like silence or time. It's while in deep zazen when I have had the most interesting and profound realizations of things I hadn't been able to understand with my regular thinking mind.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    #SatToday


    Quote Originally Posted by Anshu Bryson View Post
    Kyonin,

    While I understand what you are saying, I can't help but feeling that the call to 'just sit' is often quite dismissive. When we do sit, yes, we should 'just' sit. But we do, after all, spend most of our waking time 'not' sitting. We do live in this 'relative' world, and it is surely important to understand that there is 'the absolute AND the relative', not the absolute WITHOUT the relative.

    Our sitting practice is experiential, and so it should be. But, might I suggest that one does not come to an expression such as "Emptiness is Mu is All is Nothing is Complete is Here is There is No is Yes is US" by not having read, by not having thought, by not having discussed the concept of 'Emptiness', the concept of 'Mu', etc...?

    So, I take issue with the thought that we can 'just sit' and completely dismiss the intellectual component of life. We talk often of things being 'not one; not two'. Surely this is about recognising that the things we see as 'dual' actually have no independent existence, rather than dismissing or negating one part of the duality in favor of the other...?

    I have sat today. And will sit again this evening. But I will also read. Extensively (likely for longer than I will sit).

    I know that this is not a 'discussion forum' as such, but, if the answer to all questions is going to be 'just sit', does one simply stop asking the questions...?

    Gassho,
    Anshu

    -sat today-
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  25. #25
    Hi,

    I should have also mentioned that, not only for the Heart Sutra, but for most of the other Chants often heard around hear at our weekly Zazenkai and such, I very highly recommend this wonderful book by Okumura Roshi if you wish details on meaning ...

    LIVING BY VOW

    Exploring eight of Zen's most essential and universal liturgical texts, Living by Vow is a handbook to walking the Zen path, and Shohaku Okumura guides us like an old friend, speaking clearly and directly of the personal meaning and implications of these chants, generously using his experiences to illustrate their practical significance. A scholar of Buddhist literature, he masterfully uncovers the subtle, intricate web of culture and history that permeate these great texts. Esoteric or challenging terms take on vivid, personal meaning, and old familiar phrases gain new poetic resonance.
    http://www.amazon.com/Living-Vow-Pra...sap_bc?ie=UTF8

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi,

    I should have also mentioned that, not only for the Heart Sutra, but for most of the other Chants often heard around hear at our weekly Zazenkai and such, I very highly recommend this wonderful book by Okumura Roshi if you wish details on meaning ...

    LIVING BY VOW



    http://www.amazon.com/Living-Vow-Pra...sap_bc?ie=UTF8

    Gassho, J
    Also available at Wisdom Publications: http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/living-vow; the e-book bundles have Kindle, epub and PDF files... ;-)

    Gassho,
    Anshu

    -sat today-

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