Stupid obsessions during zazen - your experiences ? How do you deal with them ?

[Ugrok]

Hello !

Last few days, during sitting, i could not help but endlessly listen to the blood stream in my ears. You know, that sound that is always there, quite a high pitch, not very pleasant when you start paying attention to it.

I also had a few times when i was obsessed with my eyelids automatically blinking.

Did you experience such obsessive times ? What is the "good" attitude towards these during zazen ? I just sit and let myself be obsessed, but it's quite an unpleasant experience...

Thanks !

Gassho,

Ugrok, sat and heard his own blood flowing today

[Jishin]

Hello,

It's neat that you are able to perceive things that you normally would not during Zazen.

Gassho, Jishin

#SatToday

[FabianS]

Greetings!

During sitting I notice several things that usually are "invisible" (to me). The beat of my heart like a wave starting in my chest, quickly going through the whole body. My breath and how my body moves with it, things that are normally not considered at all.
I deal with them as I do with thoughts. I leave them be. If they're there it's good, if not - it's good as well. Not paying attention to them as this would be listening to them instead of just sitting. They're there, but just as everything is there when just sitting. Yet it's not about those feelings and thoughts. Was a strange feeling at first, but feels good now once I could let go of clinging to one of those sensations all the time.

Gassho, Fabian
#SATTODAY

[Jundo]

Yes, it just is usually a temporary thing because we are so bombarded during the day with noise and action and distractions, that the simple quiet and stillness and focus causes the mind to look for something to hook onto. It will pass.

Please look here ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post134634

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Ugrok]

Well, i'm in a fairly bad spot right now. I cannot help but listen to this noise, and it makes it louder, it's driving me crazy. Sitting has become really hard even if i still do it without "real" problem other than my mind going "what if this never stops ? what if you become crazy because of this noise ? what if this is a brain tumor ?". I'm sort of falling in a vicious circle as anxiety makes me hyper sensitive and i hear the sound more and more, which makes me more anxious ! Now i'm sort of trying to catch the sound during the day. I see how obsessive and stupid this is, but cannot help it, it's like trying not to think about a pink elephant. I know what i need to do : do stuff and stop paying attention. This is insane as i totally created the problem in the first place, trying to listen actively to this sound and making it more and more important when it was always there before and not a problem at all...
Just don't know how i should manage this during zazen as letting go only seems to make things worse, at least that's how i judge it.

Gassho,

Ugrok, sat today (with difficulty)

[Kokuu]

Hi Ugrok

The usual advice is to sit with whatever arises and watch it come and go (including the stories and thoughts about the things). However, sometimes things become so overwhelming it is near impossible to do this in my experience.

This may well be advice contrary to the practice of Shikantaza (in which case I am sure Jundo will correct my ignorance) but I sit with a lot of pain and symptoms of chronic illness and when the sensations are too great for my capacity to just sit I find that working with the breath or saying mantras allows sufficient cushioning of experience for me to still be with what is without being overwhelmed. Breath awareness can also help the physical manifestation of anxiety. You can let go of these anchors for as long as you can to touch the experience then go back.

Much metta to you
Kokuu
#not sat yet today as have sick son home with me

[Ugrok]

Thank you very much Kokuu, that's what i did quite instinctively on the cushion : focusing on the breathe. Helped a bit.

Gassho,

Ugrok, sat today

[Jishin]

sensations are too great for my capacity to just sit I find that working with the breath or saying mantras allows sufficient cushioning of experience for me to still be with what is without being overwhelmed.

I agree. Sometimes I have very disturbing images regarding the horrible suffering that my patients have that I can not make go away. In such cases I use mantras.

Gassho, Jishin

#SatToday

[Jundo]

The usual advice is to sit with whatever arises and watch it come and go (including the stories and thoughts about the things). However, sometimes things become so overwhelming it is near impossible to do this in my experience.

This may well be advice contrary to the practice of Shikantaza (in which case I am sure Jundo will correct my ignorance) but I sit with a lot of pain and symptoms of chronic illness and when the sensations are too great for my capacity to just sit I find that working with the breath or saying mantras allows sufficient cushioning of experience for me to still be with what is without being overwhelmed. Breath awareness can also help the physical manifestation of anxiety. You can let go of these anchors for as long as you can to touch the experience then go back.

Hi Ugrok and Kokuu,

I also recommend that, when the thoughts start running like wild horses, or when there is some severe pain or other distraction, following or counting the breath is good to center one like an anchor. No problem. In fact, if a mantra helps for a time (it does not matter what one chooses as the mantra, some phrase of your choosing that resonates), that is fine too ... or whatever else one needs to get one through the pain or brain hurricane. If and when one can eventually calm down a bit, and find some peace, I then recommend a return to open, spacious sitting.

But here is the thing: the most vital aspect of Shikantaza is NOT whether there are wild thoughts or no wild thoughts, pain or no pain. Shikantaza is radical sitting embracing and yielding to what is without resistance. Shikantaza is sitting beyond concern for something else in Zazen, and how circumstances might be better.

So, for example, if one is sitting with wild thoughts or pain that seems to be making for distracted Zazen by wishing that one did not have wild thoughts or pain ... that is bad Zazen.

If one is sitting totally at one, allowing and accepting one's wild thoughts and pain that seem to be making for distracted Zazen, but with equanimity as to the situation (even equanimity with the fact that one might wish there were no wild thoughts or pain ) ... that is good Zazen.

In fact, if one is sitting in Zazen feeling pretty clear and pain free ... but feeling one needs to experience such and stay so for "good Zazen" .... that is actually a kind of bad Zazen too!

Seems strange, huh?

So, good Shikantaza has nothing to do with pain or thoughts or no pain or no thoughts ... only our total presence.

In the meantime, do what one can to be free of the pain, follow the breath or whatever ... no matter.

I remember sitting Zazen at Sojiji temple here in Japan, many years ago, in an old wooden rickety building. I asked the teacher if I should break off Zazen and run for the exit if there was a big earthquake. He said something like, yes, probably it is prudent to get out if a big earthquake under that rickety roof. However, if I ran while still "at one with the earthquake", then it was still good Zazen even while running. If I decided to keep sitting through the earthquake, but was "at one with the earthquake", then it was still good Zazen even while sitting. If I was afraid, but was "at one" with my fear, then it was still good Zazen. But if I sat or ran, was afraid or not ... but was not "at one" with the situation ... then it was bad Zazen!

Here is a short section from one of the best Zen Books I have some across in years, something I am about to recommend to everyone with a review (Risho first introduced it awhile back) ... Please search the phrase "not a very good Zen teacher" here, and read the few pages entitled "No Gaining Idea".

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=c...her%22&f=false

Funny how this works.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Ugrok]

Thank you Jundo. The text is great as well. What is interesting with these experiences of sitting in pain or in distraction or in obsession is that it is always humbling. We are not as peaceful as we think, we are not without flaws, we are just human beings. Sometimes this truth gets right into our faces and takes time to be integrated again because we easily get used to what we wrongly think is "good zazen". It always surprises me nowadays ; things are fine, i think i'm beginning to get the hang of stuff, to understand what zazen is about, even to feel it, then wham !, a random and sadly usual life experience just ruins my whole delusion. Then it passes and i do it again. Stupid little me, ahah !

Gassho

Ugrok, sat today

[Jundo]

Thank you Jundo. The text is great as well. What is interesting with these experiences of sitting in pain or in distraction or in obsession is that it is always humbling. We are not as peaceful as we think, we are not without flaws, we are just human beings. Sometimes this truth gets right into our faces and takes time to be integrated again because we easily get used to what we wrongly think is "good zazen". It always surprises me nowadays ; things are fine, i think i'm beginning to get the hang of stuff, to understand what zazen is about, then wham, a random and sadly usual life experience just ruins my whole delusion. Then it passes and i do it again. Stupid little me, ahah !

Gassho

Ugrok, sat today

One is Flawless Peaceful Buddha with pain, thoughts, lack of peace, flaws ....

One is Flawless Peaceful Buddha with no pain, no thoughts, deep peace, flawless ...

True Flawless Peaceful Buddha is not a matter of pain or no pain, thought or no thought, peace or no peace, flaw or no flaw, buddhas or silly human beings. Rather, Flawless Peaceful Buddha is all such.

The only thing is whether one realizes so or not.

When realized, flaws somehow become Flawless (we try to fix what we can nonetheless!), lack of peace is Peace, thoughts are No Thoughts, pain is Pain Free (even while still hurting like hell), and human being is Buddha.

Weird yet Wise, huh?

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Daiyo]

Here is a short section from one of the best Zen Books I have some across in years, something I am about to recommend to everyone with a review (Risho first introduced it awhile back) ... Please search the phrase "not a very good Zen teacher" here, and read the few pages entitled "No Gaining Idea".

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=c...her%22&f=false

Funny how this works.

Wonderful text, Jundo, thank you.

I need to remember this everytime I sit.
And after sitting. And everytime I'm about to punch myself for not being as I would like to.

Gassho,
Walter

#SatToday

[Ishin]

Excellent.

Gassho
C

Sat Today!