Proposal for Sangha Discussion: "SAT TODAY!" - Sitting Before Talking

[Jika]

Have been sitting with that:

This Practice is nothing but obstacle after obstacle until no obstacles remain.

Shikantaza is the first non-obstacle ever in my life.
Please, do not make it one

It is absolute freedom. It is coming home.
It is a glove that perfectly fits, and the hand has no size.
However big or small, it is the universe.
But then, love poetry is just delusion

Sorry for threadjacking.
May we all be at peace, embracing all conditions of life.
Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

[Myosha]

Hello,

Thank you for the lesson.


Gassho,
Myosha sat today

[Joyo]

I must confess it got me on the cushion one morning I almost let it slip.

Gassho, Jundo

I must confess, it has helped me many mornings as I used to let it slip 2-3 times a week, but not anymore.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Entai]

This has helped me become more mindful of my own idle chatter. I've started rethinking my use of social media as well.

Gassho, Entai

[Kaishin]

I will say that I have been very remiss lately in not sitting. I have been exceptionally busy, but one can always find a few minutes to sit, so it really is laziness on my part.



But I have not posted on those days, so it had been working for me to not blab if I haven't sat.



In fact, I have not sat today, but I wanted to post to say this, as well as express that the Nun article Jundo posted had inspired me to re-commit to sit. Those nuns are amazing. I cower in the presence of their strength. I could not last a day doing what they do. Immense respect and gratitude for their devotion!

Thanks,
Kaishin

[Jundo]

Hi Guys,

I wonder if maybe it is better not to use here? I think it may be confusing to folks who do not understand the message. This is not a time for symbolism, but to say clearly "Sat Today" to our fellows to encourage them. Also good for ourselves to take a moment to say it out loud, rather than just clip it as an automatic picture to the message. Any consensus of the group on this?

I do like the many creative variations in writing "Sat Today" that folks have come up with. That's great.

Gassho, Jundo

Sattoday!

[Jika]

So, is the one month test over and we should report, or better wait?

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

[Jinyo]

I maybe need to apologise as it was my suggestion that we might use the symbol for 'sat today' -

I think only a few members (including myself) have used it.


I can see that it might be confusing and have no wish to go against the party line.


Haven't sat today so will sit with my resistance - actually don't have much of a problem now with writing the words,

as this 'trial period' has really helped my practice.


Gassho


Willow

[Ongen]

I agree that the words are more powerful

Fashion

Vincent

Sat today


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ongen]

Hmm I meant gassho. My new phone's autocorrect is not into zen...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ansan]

Have been sitting with that:



Shikantaza is the first non-obstacle ever in my life.
Please, do not make it one

It is absolute freedom. It is coming home.
It is a glove that perfectly fits, and the hand has no size.
However big or small, it is the universe.
But then, love poetry is just delusion

Sorry for threadjacking.
May we all be at peace, embracing all conditions of life.
Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

Thank you, Danny, for the words I could not say because I did not know how. I am new here at TreeLeaf but not new to sitting. Shikintaza is the one resting place that makes me want to sit. Just within the last 2 weeks, my husband, who has never meditated, has joined me in Shikintaza each morning as well. We feel at home.

Gassho Danny,
Ka

#sattoday

[Mp]

... my husband, who has never meditated, has joined me in Shikintaza each morning as well. We feel at home.

Wonderful Ka. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Ansan]

Wonderful Ka. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

Thank you, Shingen...and we both #sattoday.

Gassho,
Ka

[Kyonin]

Hi all,

I have been thinking on using our #SatToday tag in my Spanish messages. The thing is that Spanish is longer than English.

So I think I could say:

#HoyMedité

#HoyHiceZazen

Something like that. But not sure. What I'm sure of is that this tag is a good reminder of my practice

Gassho,

Kyonin
#HoyMedité ;D

[Nindo]

Hi Kyonin,
what is the literal translation of "Sat today"? The english version does not mention "meditated" or "zazen", either.

Gassho,
Nindo

[Daiyo]

Hi Nindo, it would be:

"Me senté hoy" o "Sentado hoy".

The problem is that the verb in spanish uses the suffix "se" meaning something near "self", the verb is "sentarse" and in english it would be "to sit oneself".
Some people use just "sentar" but it is wrong.
The correct way of saying "I sat today" is "Yo me senté hoy", but some people say "yo senté hoy" exclusively referring to zazen.

Hope it helps.

Gassho,
Walter.

[Jundo]

WELL, EVERYONE, TIME TO REFLECT ON OUR MONTH LONG EXPERIMENT. IS THIS POSITIVE AND ENCOURAGING? IS THIS WORTH CONTINUING?

Please sum up your experiences and impressions once again.

Let's go with the group consensus!

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

PS - I am also going to ask we avoid the little mark as it might confuse newer folks. Any feeling on that too?

[Geika]

It has helped me to sit a lot more, do I'd like to keep it around.

Sat today, gassho.

[Jishin]

It has helped me to cut down on worthless posts. Two thumbs up. :-)

Gassho, Jishin

#SatToday

[Anshu Bryson]

While I was happy to follow the instruction, it don't really think it had an impact on my practice, so I don't lean one way or the other; happy to go with the group consensus, or Jundo's call.

Gassho,

Bryson

sat today

[Jishin]

I sit the same amount but the mind is quieter after sitting and my need to say what needs not to be said decreases. Can you imagine the type of garbage that would come out of my mind if I did not sit at all?

Gassho, Jishin

#SatToday

[Jundo]

I might say to offer an opinion on both the effect that writing it oneself and seeing it stated by others has on both one's own practice and the practice of others who may need encouragement.

In other words, we are doing this not only for the encouragement it brings us, but for the encouragement we may bring to others who may need the inspiration and reminder and "group energy" to help them along. We do this to help ourself and help others (not two, by the way).

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Kyotai]

It has encouraged me to sit on days I didn't want to. Let's keep it.

Gassho, Shawn
Sat today

[jizu]

Hello all,

I believe it helpful and encouraging...though a newcomer to the site in mid-October, I have not found it an intimidating or restrictive practice...

Perhaps because I don't write every day...but, I do sit and then read here every day...seeing it in everyone's posts reinforces sitting as an ordinary daily practice...when I actually write it myself in a post, it makes me think of the other aspects or practices of Zen I did not do today and I believe that helps, little by little, to either do something more or learn more...then, by reading everyone's experiences here, it becomes even more inspiring to practice...

Gassho,
Jon

#SatToday

[Mp]

I think it has been a great idea Jundo and I for one think we should continue with it. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday and about to sit right now

[Joyo]

I think it has been a great idea Jundo and I for one think we should continue with it. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday and about to sit right now

I am in total agreement. This has changed my practice so much, for the better

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Sekishi]

It has had little impact on my practice one way or the other, but it sure seems like it has helped others, so I vote for continuing.

That said, personally the single biggest boost to my practice over the past few years has been from having a nearly daily "live" sitting available on Google Plus at a time convenient to my time zone (deep bows to Dosho). In addition to the SatToday initiative, is there anything we can do to bring daily Google Plus sittings to more folks? I volunteer to help in any way I can to expand this!

Gassho,
Sekishi #SatToday

[lorax]

As I said earlier in this thread when I started with Treeleaf Sangha over six years ago my main purpose was to accept Jundo's invitation to sit with him each day. Seeing SAT TODAY after posts on the forum has been a great reminder that a whole lot of other folks are sitting with us. I hope we continue this practice as one more link holding this far flung Sangha together.

SAT TODAY

[Anshu Bryson]

I might say to offer an opinion on both the effect that writing it oneself and seeing it stated by others has on both one's own practice and the practice of others who may need encouragement.

In other words, we are doing this not only for the encouragement it brings us, but for the encouragement we may bring to others who may need the inspiration and reminder and "group energy" to help them along. We do this to help ourself and help others (not two, by the way).

Gassho, J

SatToday

If it is helping people, I am all for it

Gassho,

Bryson

sat today

[Nindo]

If it is helping people, I'm willing to go with it.

Personally I still think that included in being here is/ should be a commitment to sit, so why a need to say so?

Respectfully,
Nindo

[Jika]

I perceived of "sat today" as having two intentions.
It did not change my sitting practice, Ango was way more powerful in that respect.
But as it seems to help others, the idea is a good addition.
I liked the suggestion of having a very visible open door, maybe a sticky thread, for people who have difficulties with sitting. My practice is only a baby, maybe I'll need that thread one day. A very compassionate idea, as one might also feel inferior and worthless, as if one was the only person encountering that problem.
The second idea was posting less, and in my baby practice sitting and silence do not go hand in hand.
I agree with Sekishi that facetime, sitting together might help.
I struggle with my affection for this sangha, and the request for less words.
My ego is taking sattoday as a teaching, and will try to put words in a form supportive for our practice. Still I fail, like too much here.

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

[Byokan]

Hi All,


I haven’t had any strong feelings either way. It hasn’t really changed anything for me, but then, I’ve been in a time when I am happy to sit. I can definitely see where it would be helpful if I was resisting sitting. If it helps motivate others I’m very happy to do it.


I did have a thought that maybe it could be done intermittently, maybe 3 or 4 times a year, instead of continuously. Just an idea. Probably simpler to just do it continuously, though.


No objections here, happy to keep it going.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[Jika]

Sorry for all the talk. But I'd like to add that in my baby practice experience it would be a pity to emphasize only that sitting is hard and obligatory, and if your monkey mind tells you you can't do it be damned. I respect the importance of shikantaza, but I also experience it as beautiful and loving, simple and welcoming. It is whatever it is, and if one asks it to be an obstacle it certainly can be one. If possible, I'd love ideas to encourage people to see this beautiful, fascinating, embracing side. It motivates me more than threats and could work for others.
Thank you.
Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

[Ugrok]

Hello !

It did not change anything to my practice, at all.

But it changed the way i view posts on the forum. Knowing that people have sat before they post is a positive thing, i think. I agree with the idea that there is no point in talking about zen etc. if you don't sit. So i vote for the "Sat Today".

Gassho,

Ugrok, s-s-s-s-s-sat today (to be read aloud with a dj voice)

[Daiyo]

Hi,
It has helped me to "not miss" and I think it is positive.
But I'm open to other options.


Gassho,
Walter

#SatToday

[Meishin]

Hi,

It seems to place the emphasis where it should be. Seems to have discouraged this from being merely a philosophy forum. Nothing wrong with philosophy but that's not why I'm here. The routine hasn't changed, but I am more inclined to read forum threads, knowing that we are sharing a practice.

Gassho
John

sat today

[Myosha]

Hello,

It is entirely useless and will be joyfully continued.


Gassho,
Myosha sat today

[Jundo]

Sorry for all the talk. But I'd like to add that in my baby practice experience it would be a pity to emphasize only that sitting is hard and obligatory, and if your monkey mind tells you you can't do it be damned. I respect the importance of shikantaza, but I also experience it as beautiful and loving, simple and welcoming. It is whatever it is, and if one asks it to be an obstacle it certainly can be one. If possible, I'd love ideas to encourage people to see this beautiful, fascinating, embracing side. It motivates me more than threats and could work for others.
Thank you.
Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

Hi Danny,

We always keep the flavor as positive, mostly carrot and little whip around here. It is beautiful, loving, simple and welcoming. But our purpose is to sit Zen before we start discussing Zen.

If someone is new to the Community, or really having a problem to sit, than they would not be kept from the forums.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jinyo]

Hi,

like many members posting here I've found this proposal really helpful to my practice. From a personal point of view I'm happy for it to continue.


However - there is a little voice niggling in my head that also agrees with some of the earlier comments Dosho and Nindo made. I think if the proposal is introduced as a rule there will be people who it will put off. I'm sure I 'wasted' a lot of time on the message board at the beginning (for more than 3 months) reading more than sitting, offering opinions when it would have been better to be silent, getting caught up in philosophy, etc. But was this part of a process - and would I have been spared that process by a 'rule'? I honestly don't know.


I think if the rule stands it will change the nature of the message board and possibly the nature of the sangha. Now that may be for the best - to abide by the rule means to do things in the correct order and will attract/encourage commited students.

But I don't want to ignore what Dosho said because I think he had a point. Not sure if having a separate thread for members finding it difficult to sit will really address this issue and the subject tends to come up from time to time anyway.

I liked Lisa's suggestion to maybe bring the proposal to our attention intermittently. Perhaps we could do this for a month at the change of each season. I think it would have a more meditative/ rather than rule bound affect and will help new members to integrate and really think about the importance of sitting before chatting.

Gassho

Willow

Sat Today

[Jika]

Thank you, Jundo, I am relieved to hear that.

No problem with the sitting before chatting rule.

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

[Kantai]

Hi!
I'm a bit two parted in this "sat today" question.
On one hand I feel I get a bit "hunted" by it. The days when I don't get to sit for a longer time, even if I do a short sitting, the thought of not doing zazen is nagging on me.

On the other hand it's an encouragement for me to do zazen. Then I naturally don't have to deal with the nagging thought of not doing zazen.
I do this "hunting" be myself so the "sat today" doesn't change that.

Maybe I think it's a bit unnecessary. If Treeleaf was a stone and bricks sangha in the real world (which in a way it is), would we, when meeting at the door before the zazenkai or what else, before greeting each other and change some words ask:
"-Did you sit today?"

Gassho
Kantai
Sat today

[Kyonin]

Hi Kyonin,
what is the literal translation of "Sat today"? The english version does not mention "meditated" or "zazen", either.

Gassho,
Nindo

Hi Nindo!

The literal translation would be: Senté hoy, which doesn't make sense. To sit means just that, to use a chair and there is no zazen meaning into it.

That's why I had to look for something that carried the meaning into Spanish.

Gassho,

Kyonin

#SatToday

[Kyonin]

Hi guys,

This little experiment has helped me to remind myself to sit zazen not only before posting to Treeleaf, but in other situations in life like social networks or even have lunch.

I say lets keep it!

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Nindo]

To sit means just that, to use a chair and there is no zazen meaning into it.

Hi Kyonin,

well, in English to sit means just that, as well. If I said "sat today" to my co-workers, they would say, sure, for almost 8 hours!

Never mind, I was just wondering why the phrase needed to sound "more special" in Spanish than in English...

Gassho,
Nindo

[Jundo]

Hi Kyonin,

well, in English to sit means just that, as well. If I said "sat today" to my co-workers, they would say, sure, for almost 8 hours!

Never mind, I was just wondering why the phrase needed to sound "more special" in Spanish than in English...

Gassho,
Nindo

So, Nindo, may I kindly ask you to note "SatToday" when posting? I see that you are not in your above post. Thank you.

Hi!
I'm a bit two parted in this "sat today" question.
On one hand I feel I get a bit "hunted" by it. The days when I don't get to sit for a longer time, even if I do a short sitting, the thought of not doing zazen is nagging on me.

On the other hand it's an encouragement for me to do zazen. Then I naturally don't have to deal with the nagging thought of not doing zazen.
I do this "hunting" be myself so the "sat today" doesn't change that.

Maybe I think it's a bit unnecessary. If Treeleaf was a stone and bricks sangha in the real world (which in a way it is), would we, when meeting at the door before the zazenkai or what else, before greeting each other and change

Sitting is not a matter of "Long or Short". When we sit, we sit beyond and right through "long vs. short". Nonetheless, we sit for a certain time ... sometimes longer and sometimes shorter, all good sitting. Good longly, good shortly.

Who is the hunter who is hunting, and whom is hunted? Nonetheless, we diligently sit ... catching what cannot be caught.

And, yes, if we were a "bricks and mortars" Sangha we would make sure that we Sat before Chatting. We would probably not encourage folks who simply make a habit of frequently skipping the Zazen sitting, showing up only for the discussion and free coffee and cookies after sitting.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Ansan]

Would it be obligatory to use "sat today" if it were the consensus of the group? Since I am really very new here, I feel the connection to the sangha when I post "sat today, so I would say "yes". I think it would be redundant and perhaps chastising, though, if we were obliged to say "sat today". It would be like "did you brush your teeth today, kiddos?" with an insinuation that we SHOULD be sitting (otherwise our teeth and mind might rot). The reason we are here is because we want to be, so wouldn't it be obvious that we ARE sitting? Or at least when we do sit, often, daily or occasionally, would that be an admission of what type of practice we have? So in this case, I would say "no" because it might make some feel guilty with the possible result of not posting or lying. Just two of my cents. Perhaps we might need another "smiley" for those of us that want to use it instead of the words. Or just "Zazan before Chatting".

Gassho,
Ka

#SatToday

[Jundo]

Hi Ka,

After folks have been here for a few months, I would ask them to say "SatToday". Yes, it would be obligatory to sit and report "SatToday" before posting on this Forum. Yes, folks should be and are expected to be sitting before chatting here about sitting. If they do not sit, then they should not chat.

This would not include folks who are having some difficulty sitting, and need access to the Forum in order to discuss that difficulty.

The reason we are here is because we want to be, so wouldn't it be obvious that we ARE sitting? Or at least when we do sit, often, daily or occasionally, would that be an admission of what type of practice we have?

No, it is not obvious. One is free not to sit and to sit less than daily (I cannot prevent that) ... but by the same token, one should not come here until having sat that day. Members of this Sangha are asked to sit daily. You come here, so that means you have sat. I hope some people feel bad and are motivated, sorry if it chases some folks away (farewell, and maybe you can find some place less demanding) ... and I sure hope nobody lies ... but:

... Let me shout from the rooftop:

This is not a playground or coffee house or social club or disco.

This is a Dojo, a Practice Place for Practice.

One does not go to a Karate Dojo for the soda and donuts, and one does not come here without Sitting.

I hope that is clear by now.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jinyo]

Hello Jundo,

Thinking back it has always been clearly stated that the expectation/rule is that we sit once a day for ten minutes (at least).

That clearly evaporates for some
(myself included for periods of time) not because of resistance to sitting but for lots of reasons of health, family worries/duties. etc .

I think I gravitated more to the message board during these times as a comfort/comforting zone even if I was just reading , not contributing. So - on reflection - I do think it's important to have a designated place for those difficult times so that members don't fall off the radar.

Will it be that in the introductory email, that is sent out, that the sitting before chatting will be more heavily emphasised and also that it is obligatory for members to write 'Sat today' after their postings?

In a way - this is only a minor - but very significant - change to what is already clearly set out and will define Tree Leaf very clearly as a Dojo - which presumably is what brought us all here - or at least is why we stay?

Gassho

Willow

Sat Today

[Jundo]

Hi Willow,

I do not think a designated place is workable, but this whole Forum will always be open to folks who say "look, stuff is going on right now, I cannot sit as much as I wish and I am having difficulty". Of course, they will always be welcome.

I will be posting a sticky thread to explain the "rules" of all this, and I will make that clear. After folks have been around here a few months (not newcomers), hopefully they will notice and catch on. If not, we will give them a gentle explanation after a few months.

Gassho, J

[Kyonin]

This is not a playground or coffee house or social club or disco.

This is a Dojo, a Practice Place for Practice.

One does not go to a Karate Dojo for the soda and donuts, and one does not come here without Sitting.

Gassho, Jundo

I couldn't agree more

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday