Proposal for Sangha Discussion: "SAT TODAY!" - Sitting Before Talking

[Ugrok]

Am i the only one that this symbol freaks out ? It looks like a smiley face, without the face !

Arrrgh !

Gassho,

Ugrok, who put his buttocks on a zafu today.

[Ryumon]

Am i the only one that this symbol freaks out ? It looks like a smiley face, without the face !

Arrrgh !

Gassho,

Ugrok, who put his buttocks on a zafu today.

Yes, that must be the original face, that Dogen discusses. :-)

Gassho,

Kirk

#SatTodayInDoctorsWaitingRoom

[Jishin]

Love it Jishin!! In fact, you posted this quote awhile ago and I copied and pasted it to my google + collection of Zen teachings and quotes cuz ah, I can get defensive

Gassho,
Joyo

sat today

Cool Joyo. I think I coined the one liner and my wife uses it (when talking to me) on occasion.

Gassho, Jishin

Sat Today

[RichardH]

Just updated the signature with the auto-sat . So. if sitting has been missed for some reason I'll say not sat yet, but that will be evident in the increased defensiveness and emotionalism of the post

Just a note.... having sat with a few Theravadin and Zen groups, it does seem that Zen attracts more feisty independent minded people. That feistiness is maybe a good soil? But this is just going on personal observation.

Gassho
Daizan

[Dosho]

Hi Dosho,

I totally agree that this is not meant for achieving some kind of recognition or status.

But, first off, I have to ask what kind of "recognition or status" one gets from posting "Sat Today"?

Very little status I would say. I was not implying it was a badge.

I have tried to answer members' questions about my disagreement with this idea, but I will now cease all complaint and get on board with the trial!

Gassho,
Dosho

Sat today

[Dosho]

Just a note.... having sat with a few Theravadin and Zen groups, it does seem that Zen attracts more feisty independent minded people. That feistiness is maybe a good soil? But this is just going on personal observation.

I think there may be much truth to this as I agree that it is fertile soil. Nothing wrong with some debate and I think folks are just being honest with their first reactions. As long as it doesn't turn into personal attacks, I think it's just fine and healthy to vent a little.

Gassho,
Dosho

Sat today

[Nengyo]

Very little status I would say. I was not implying it was a badge.

I have tried to answer members' questions about my disagreement with this idea, but I will now cease all complaint and get on board with the trial!

Gassho,
Dosho

Sat today

I'm so very split on this. On one hand I'm completely anti-authoritarian and naturally rebellious. On the other, I do usually sit quietly for a period to think about how to best be rebellious. I'm caught in a viscous circle.

Sat today*

_/\_


* I sat in a very defiant manner

[Ishin]

Very little status I would say. I was not implying it was a badge.

I have tried to answer members' questions about my disagreement with this idea, but I will now cease all complaint and get on board with the trial!

Gassho,
Dosho

Sat today

I THINK what Dosho is implying ( and do correct me if I am wrong) is that posting that you sit versus that you do not sit, could be perceived/executed by some as a form of spiritual bragging. "I am more Buddhist than you because I sat today". Of course encouragement is good, but this could turn into a kind of subtle posturing situation. It probably will be just that for some.

Gassho
C
Sat Today! (just fyi)

[Myosha]

Hello,

Doing what Teacher says and throwing the rest away.


Gassho,
Myosha sat today

[Ansan]

I am still in that newbie classification, but I think this is a wonderful idea. I do have a question though, that might only be pertinent to our situation. My husband and I are building our own home from indigenous and recycled materials and the inside has no doors, just archways. When I get up in the mornings (I am usually the last one up) the household is awake and ready for the day. We have two large dogs (we call them our furkids) and it is time for breakfast for them. They eat only raw foods so we don't just put kibble in their bowls. The cat also begins to purr and mew as soon as she sees me. She wants her breakfast too. Sitting first thing in the morning is almost impossible with a fully awakened house and no doors. I wait until all go outside (except the cat...there are hawks out there waiting for breakfast too) including my husband who sits on the porch while I sit. I would like to participate but I would have to break the rules. The no-talking rule I can handle. How about morning hugs...do they count as "talking" before sitting?

Gassho,
Ka

[Jundo]

Hi Ka,

The talking is just around the forum here, not with your loved ones.

The sitting is any time within the last day, so plenty of opportunity to feed the dogs.

Gassho, J

[Heisoku]

I am worried that a misplaced h might be too much information
Gassho
Heisoku
Sat today

[Risho]

I am worried that a misplaced h might be too much information
Gassho
Heisoku
Sat today

hahhhahhahahahahahahah

Gassho,

Risho
sattoday

[Geika]

I am feeling fine about this now. The point is that Jundo would like us to sit at least once every 24 hours. Having to type "sat today" is a physical reminder to check ourselves and do so. If it is a rule that we all must follow, how can anyone be set apart? It doesn't seem like bragging to me if I don't choose to perceive it that way or put my own fancy spin on it. I choose to perceive it as a way of making sure that we are reminding ourselves, as a Sangha, to sit.

Sat today, gassho

[Geika]

I want to add that personally I won't be using it in my signature because I like having to type it out. Makes me examine my honesty and effort.

Sat today, gassho

[Dosho]

I THINK what Dosho is implying ( and do correct me if I am wrong) is that posting that you sit versus that you do not sit, could be perceived/executed by some as a form of spiritual bragging. "I am more Buddhist than you because I sat today". Of course encouragement is good, but this could turn into a kind of subtle posturing situation. It probably will be just that for some.

Clark,

The point of my message was that I was not implying that, but I suppose it's possible that could happen. We'll see how things go.

And if I may chime in about the signature line idea, shouldn't the point of this exercise be that you consciously note if you sat or not? As such, I would think it better to have to type it in each time rather than permanently in the signature line. I get that if you are posting you are essentially saying that you did sit, but I have to think some folks (myself included) would start to forget.

So, it's just a thought. I'll be typing it out each time I post so it doesn't become too automatic, but it may be different for others and that's okay!

Gassho,
Dosho

Sat today

[Ansan]

(I'm reminded of the story of the disciple and master climbing a mountain: the disciple gushes at each new sight - "Master, look, the wonderful flowers! Master, do you hear the birds singing! Master, the colour of the sky is beautiful!" and so on. The master walks in silence, but finally he mutters "Yes! But what a pity to say so!" )

Sat today, but what a pity to say so....

Gassho,
Nindo

Nindo, That is a lovely quote! It reminds me of my own inner voice that is often telling me "Isn't that a gorgeous sunset, moon, etc." I often speak back: "What a pity that you broke the mood. Please be quiet please" Thank you!!

[Ansan]

Hi Ka,

The talking is just around the forum here, not with your loved ones.

The sitting is any time within the last day, so plenty of opportunity to feed the dogs.

Gassho, J

Thank you, Jundo. Us newbies often do not know how to read. Question: Even though I do sit every day in the morning, I am now faced with a dilemma. Soon, I will be tutoring at the elementary schools where I will have to get up at 5:30 AM to be there on time. I am hardly awake at that hour. 8AM is normal for me. I don't feel quite right unless I sit and before the day starts officially. But I am afraid I will certainly fall asleep at the wrong time!!

[Joyo]

Well, I sat today. I was going to come on here and start reading and chatting first. However, I remembered the new plan. I sat first. Great reminder, I like this.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Jinyo]

Well, I sat today. I was going to come on here and start reading and chatting first. However, I remembered the new plan. I sat first. Great reminder, I like this.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

Me too Joyo - it's helping me to stay focused.

Gassho

Willow

[Jishin]

Me too Joyo - it's helping me to stay focused.

Gassho

Willow

Me three.

Gassho, Jishin

#SatToday

[Kyonin]

Well, I sat today. I was going to come on here and start reading and chatting first. However, I remembered the new plan. I sat first. Great reminder, I like this.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

Yes. Thank you. I think that's the point.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Troy]

I like the idea Jundo! I added the sat2today to my signature on my tapatalk app. I won't post until I sit each day. Easy enough and good for me at the same time. Sounds like a win win to me


_|sat2today|_

[RichardH]

And if I may chime in about the signature line idea, shouldn't the point of this exercise be that you consciously note if you sat or not? As such, I would think it better to have to type it in each time rather than permanently in the signature line. I get that if you are posting you are essentially saying that you did sit, but I have to think some folks (myself included) would start to forget.

So, it's just a thought. I'll be typing it out each time I post so it doesn't become too automatic, but it may be different for others and that's okay!

Gassho,
Dosho

Sat today

That's a good point. If it is more appropriate to say it each time that's good. I'm easy, and will de-auto-sat

I'm not concerned that "Just Sat" will become a badge of Buddhist holier-than-thou-ness. It doesn't seem especially praiseworthy. Just a basic commitment.

Gassho
Daizan

[Jundo]

Thank you, Jundo. Us newbies often do not know how to read. Question: Even though I do sit every day in the morning, I am now faced with a dilemma. Soon, I will be tutoring at the elementary schools where I will have to get up at 5:30 AM to be there on time. I am hardly awake at that hour. 8AM is normal for me. I don't feel quite right unless I sit and before the day starts officially. But I am afraid I will certainly fall asleep at the wrong time!!

"I don't feel quite right unless ... " is your "I" telling you this. Just sit each day. The time of day is not so important.

Gassho, J

Sat Today!

[Ansan]

"I don't feel quite right unless ... " is your "I" telling you this. Just sit each day. The time of day is not so important.

Gassho, J

Sat Today!

Thank you, Jundo. The "I" in me is developed by habit, the habit to plan rather than to live. There is my fear that I will break the habit. Or perhaps even more startling to me is "there, that is taken care of for the day." Thank you for this realization. It softens the way I look at sitting. Deep bows.

[Ishin]

Clark,

The point of my message was that I was not implying that, but I suppose it's possible that could happen. We'll see how things go.

And if I may chime in about the signature line idea, shouldn't the point of this exercise be that you consciously note if you sat or not? As such, I would think it better to have to type it in each time rather than permanently in the signature line. I get that if you are posting you are essentially saying that you did sit, but I have to think some folks (myself included) would start to forget.

So, it's just a thought. I'll be typing it out each time I post so it doesn't become too automatic, but it may be different for others and that's okay!

Gassho,
Dosho

Sat today

Gassho
C
Sat Today

[Meikyo]

Hi again.

I too have come to terms with this. I can nothing but respect greatly the stalwart attitude our Teacher displays when insisting on this point.
Even if I don't agree completely with the way this sentiment is approached practically I can see the rationale. I respect and trust Jundo and the Teachings more than I disagree with the specific way this principle (which is fundamental anyway you slice it) is handled. Zenny's gotta do what a Zenny's gotta do.

Conclusion: #SAT TODAY!

Gassho
Aske

[Ongen]

Hmm why not set aside all delusion and just try for a week?

Gassho

Vincent

#SaTurday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KellyM]

I've been thinking this over, and I have not been posting because I don't want to add the "sat today". I have been sitting. In fact, I am doing much better about sitting regularly since every post I see reminds me to do it with the "sat today". But I don't like the idea of having to say whether or not I sat today.

I don't like feeling like I have to answer to other people about what my practice is or isn't.

I don't like feeling like I'm being treated like a small child who needs to be checked up on.

I don't trust people (human nature, not that I don't trust individuals here) to not fall into the trap of policing each other, even if only in our own minds.

I fear that we'll become so concerned with "But does it say so-and-so sat today?" that we won't really listen to what So-and-so is saying.

It's my natural tendency to resist a rule unless I can see that clear harm is being done by not having the rule. (Example - I certainly follow traffic laws!)

It just makes me uncomfortable. Even if it is reminding me, I don't like seeing that other people say they've sat. I don't want to say that I've sat. I don't know why. It just feels weird and uncomfortable.

So, really, it all comes down to this being something that is outside of my comfort zone. I saw someone on Twitter share something a few weeks ago that I've been trying to keep in mind - All personal growth happens outside of your comfort zone. This looks like a really good chance for me to put that into practice.

If we are hesitant to post because we don't want to say whether or not we've sat today, it doesn't hurt to talk less and listen more.

We're being asked to try it. Whether we think it's a good or bad idea, those are only our guesses and expectations about how it will work. We only know for sure how it works if we actually do try it.

Just because I don't like it doesn't mean it's not a good thing.

Gassho,
Kelly

sat today

[Jundo]

Hi Kelly,

Thank you for doing so despite your hesitation.

Gassho, Jundo

[Memo]

sat today, before work

Gassho, Girai

[Roland]

I simply think we should be more relaxed about this. It seems like a useful reminder of our practice and in itself also part of the broader practice.

Gassho, Roland #SatToday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BobSpour]

Although I don't post very often. I do keep reading. So thanks for everyone's posts...
Sat today ... And every day

_/\_
Bob


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[PaulMc]

I'm new to the forum but a little confused, can someone tell me why it is important to publicly declare that they have sat today? Is this worn as a badge of honour? Surely this is a little egotistical and not within the spirit of Zen practice? #sattoday

[Kyotai]

I'm new to the forum but a little confused, can someone tell me why it is important to publicly declare that they have sat today? Is this worn as a badge of honour? Surely this is a little egotistical and not within the spirit of Zen practice? #sattoday

Thanks for your question Paul. I encourage correction from our senior members or teachers if I am a little off base. My understanding of #sattoday is not so much to declare that one sat, more so to remind folks that zazen after all, is the one thing that is asked of all members. So if one is posting and participating in forums, one also needs to make sure one is sitting.

Gassho, Shawn

[Mp]

I'm new to the forum but a little confused, can someone tell me why it is important to publicly declare that they have sat today? Is this worn as a badge of honour? Surely this is a little egotistical and not within the spirit of Zen practice? #sattoday

Hello Paul and welcome, Shawn speaks it very well. =)

Thanks for your question Paul. I encourage correction from our senior members or teachers if I am a little off base. My understanding of #sattoday is not so much to declare that one sat, more so to remind folks that zazen after all, is the one thing that is asked of all members. So if one is posting and participating in forums, one also needs to make sure one is sitting.

Gassho, Shawn

Also see Jundo's original posting on this topic and hopefully that helps with any questions. =)

Dear all,

I have a proposal that I would like to try in this Sangha for a month, then keep if it works out. Comments please.

It is great that we talk on this forum so warmly about so many topics regarding Zen Practice and All of Life. However, before talking, this community is ultimately a Practice Place for Zazen Sitting!

So, the idea is that folks (not including relatively new members) will be asked to print the words "SAT TODAY!" next to their signature on any posting they make to this Forum!

"Sat Today" will mean that they have sat Zazen for even a few minutes within the previous 24 hours or so.

The rule would not apply to relatively new members during their first 3 months of membership. Also, it would not apply to folks who have a good reason not to have sat such as health, life emergencies or genuine trouble with sitting. They are always welcome to post if they could not sit.

However, for other folks, I will remind in a gentle way, "Did you sit today, because we should not talk until we have sat. Please include 'Sat Today' by your name to show!"　I will ask people kindly not to engage in chit chat until they have sat, unless their is some special reason.

What do you feel?

I feel it will be lovely to see long strings of ...

"Sat Today!"

"Sat Today!"

"Sat Today!"

... by our various members names! I hope it will built energy and community spirit for all of us sitting around the world!

Well, that is the proposal.

Gassho, Jundo SAT TODAY!

PS - Some folks might wonder why "Sat Today!" and not "I Sat Today!"? Well, there reason is simply there is no "I" in Shikantaza sitting!!

Gassho
Shingen

#SatToday

[Jundo]

Thanks for your question Paul. I encourage correction from our senior members or teachers if I am a little off base. My understanding of #sattoday is not so much to declare that one sat, more so to remind folks that zazen after all, is the one thing that is asked of all members. So if one is posting and participating in forums, one also needs to make sure one is sitting.

Gassho, Shawn

Yes, that is correct. This is meant as an encouragement to others, and a reminder to ourselves to have "sat before chat". There is no bragging or showing off about this sat.

That is why we ask folks not to post how often or long or days in a row someone may have sat, because there is no competition. A sit is a sat, beyond long or short and all competition.

Posting "Sat Today" is a sign of service and support of others, and togetherness of the Sangha in sitting together ... no ego or bragging about it.

Gassho, Jundo

Sattoday!

[Myosha]

Hello,

Not thinking not thinking
3dac490dfde5bebe830fb966ad84543d3459deac5d9bba5d023be3fac1bde3e1.jpg


Gassho,
Myosha sat today

[Dosho]

Jundo,

I would just add that there are some sangha members who aren't in favor of the plan and might disagree with some of the statements you made below, but all are trying it out for 30 days regardless of how anybody feels about it. So, there will be some discussion at the end of the trial period, at least I hope so. And I hope that even those folks who think it is a good (or even great) idea also keep an open mind to possible downsides of the plan and respect any who are not in favor of the idea.

Gassho,
Dosho

Sat today

Yes, that is correct. This is meant as an encouragement to others, and a reminder to ourselves to have "sat before chat". There is no bragging or showing off about this sat.

That is why we ask folks not to post how often or long or days in a row someone may have sat, because there is no competition. A sit is a sat, beyond long or short and all competition.

Posting "Sat Today" is a sign of service and support of others, and togetherness of the Sangha in sitting together ... no ego or bragging about it.

Gassho, Jundo

Sattoday!

[Nindo]

Hi PaulMc,
welcome! We have an introductions thread if you'd like to say a little about yourself, and folks will make you feel welcome!

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...%28November%29

Gassho,
Nindo

[Oheso]

Not thinking not thinking

or, thinking not thinking?

gassho, O

said, having sat

[lorax]

Hi PaulMac
Just a thought, confusion may come from looking at this issue in the context of the forum rather than as a member of the Treeleaf Sangha. My perspective is that the "forum" is simply a vehicle for communication among Sangha members and as such Jundo has simply requested we sit before chatting on the forum. No ego, no oppression, just a reminder to ourselves and our brothers and sisters at Treeleaf.

SAT TODAY

[Kyonin]

Hi PaulMac
Just a thought, confusion may come from looking at this issue in the context of the forum rather than as a member of the Treeleaf Sangha. My perspective is that the "forum" is simply a vehicle for communication among Sangha members and as such Jundo has simply requested we sit before chatting on the forum. No ego, no oppression, just a reminder to ourselves and our brothers and sisters at Treeleaf.

SAT TODAY

Thank you. That's how I see it too.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Dosho]

Hi PaulMac
Just a thought, confusion may come from looking at this issue in the context of the forum rather than as a member of the Treeleaf Sangha. My perspective is that the "forum" is simply a vehicle for communication among Sangha members and as such Jundo has simply requested we sit before chatting on the forum. No ego, no oppression, just a reminder to ourselves and our brothers and sisters at Treeleaf.

SAT TODAY

I agree with you (and Kyonin) completely...that's what it is about.

My concern is for those just starting along the Way. For some it will be most helpful in creating a daily practice, but for some, maybe only a handful, it may seem like a barrier too big to break through. And if that leads to them abandoning the Way...well, that doesn't mean they won't find it again...but those are the folks I want to help the most. The ones who don't speak up and suffer in silence, but find solace in like minded people. And with their support they may find that practice is possible, but it may take a long time...perhaps more than a few months. It's the plight of those folks I am most concerned about and why I became a novice-priest.

In this and everything I say I may very well be wrong. Indeed, I very much hope I am!

Gassho,
Dosho

Sat today

[Jundo]

Hi Dosho,

I fail to see how writing "SatToday" will cause anyone to suffer in silence. Rather, it will encourage so many folks who may need the extra boost and encouragement, from within oneself and from seeing that others are sitting. If one is in a monastery, one sometimes heads to the Zendo (instead of staying in bed) because all one's fellow monks are heading to the Zendo, because one feels the duty to encourage and join in with them ... and, in turn, be encouraged by them.

We are not requiring anyone to say so during their first weeks here, until they are comfortable with the Practice. But, after that, if something as simple as making sure they "sat before yack yack chat" is too big a barrier to someone, then they are bound to encounter 1000 greater barriers to discourage them in this Practice which is not for tourists and spectators.

We will take stock of this after the month, but so far I think it has been better than even I expected. I must confess it got me on the cushion one morning I almost let it slip.

Gassho, Jundo

[Dosho]

Jundo,

I did not say that it would cause anyone's suffering. I merely suggested that some might perceive it to be a barrier. But that barrier would be a delusion of their own making. And, as I said, I agree that for many if not most it will serve exactly the purpose you state in your comments. I am just concerned for the outliers.

At one time you spoke of months before we would require folks to post "sat today" and now you speak of weeks. I am only suggesting that we do not push quite so hard so quickly. What is the rush? I just think we should allow folks who fall flat on their faces to get back up again, not because we will take away a vehicle of expression if they don't, but because they have the will to keep going. But it is just an opinion and I know full well it is not a majority one.

I do not believe that there is a problem at Treeleaf with people posting too much but not sitting. And even if there is such an issue, people who are "addicted" to posting and see Treeleaf more as a forum than a sangha will always find a way around the rule.

However, I know you feel strongly that there is a problem and that this will be a great remedy. You are our teacher and I will trust your judgment in this matter. I only speak my mind until a decision is made. After that, the matter is settled.

Gassho,
Dosho

Sat today

Hi Dosho,

I fail to see how writing "SatToday" will cause anyone to suffer in silence. Rather, it will encourage so many folks who may need the extra boost and encouragement, from within oneself and from seeing that others are sitting. If one is in a monastery, one sometimes heads to the Zendo (instead of staying in bed) because all one's fellow monks are heading to the Zendo, because one feels the duty to encourage and join in with them ... and, in turn, be encouraged by them.

We are not requiring anyone to say so during their first weeks here, until they are comfortable with the Practice. But, after that, if something as simple as making sure they "sat before yack yack chat" is too big a barrier to someone, then they are bound to encounter 1000 greater barriers to discourage them in this Practice which is not for tourists and spectators.

We will take stock of this after the month, but so far I think it has been better than even I expected. I must confess it got me on the cushion one morning I almost let it slip.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Barrier?

I saw this yesterday about some Chinese nuns who interpret their Zen Practice like this.

http://www.chinasmack.com/2014/pictu...-hardship.html

I believe in removing barriers to people, but if the "barrier" is something as simple as refusing to support others by declaring for all one's sitting each day as an encouragement to others, or feeling that it is too much before they come here to "yack yack" ... well, they can take a hike right out the door. Bye. This Practice is not for them if something like that is the obstacle. This Practice is nothing but obstacle after obstacle until no obstacles remain.

Again, I am not talking about newcomers during the first weeks or months while they are settling in. Nor is there anything competitive about it. It is simply an "I sat today, and so can you!"

Now let me ask: Are those nuns, by marching so publicly through the streets, bragging about their spiritual worth? Or are they marching in humility, all the while encouraging others who might see them?

Just how much do we have to cater to folks around here about what they want or do not want to do? How namby pamby do we have to make things? Everyone has complaints when, if they were to spend a single day in a Zen Monastery, they would be handed a dozen tasks, duties and rules to comply with that they felt make no sense, are an afront to the ego, are hard to master, seem dumb and inefficient, are not "what one wants to do, but it helps the groups" etc. Kinda like the army. I wonder if any of those nuns complain about how silly their walks, how competitive it seems, and how they might discourage all the non-walkers of the world.

Gassho, J

[Dosho]

Jundo,

I think you completely misunderstand me. But that's ok; most people do!

And that's not said with sarcasm or some belief that I have "special wisdom" that others do not. In fact, if I had to lay money on it I'd probably bet against myself.

That's really all I have left to say. Thank you for allowing me to speak my mind.

Gassho,
Dosho

Sat today

[Nindo]

Hearing Jundo.
Hearing Dosho.
Hearing the silent ones who never say anything or stopped saying something.
One sangha.
Nothing more to say.

Deep bows,
Nindo

_/sat today\_