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Thread: Faces in the carpet.

  1. #1
    Junior Member Tin_Sandwich's Avatar
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    Faces in the carpet.

    Hi,

    Please tell me that the faces staring back at me from the carpet during zazen will cease over time. No matter where I rest my gaze there is a different face each time. Why is it always faces that I see, in the carpet, curtain patterns or clouds? It is I must confess very distracting.

    Gassho Steve

  2. #2
    Senior Member Myosha's Avatar
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    Say hello and let 'em go.

    Repeat as needed.


    Gassho,
    Myosha
    Last edited by Myosha; 08-27-2014 at 08:38 PM.
    Practice with humility, respect all beings, avoid attachments, give rise to prajña from your own awareness, put an end to delusions - Hui-neng

  3. #3
    Hello,
    i sit towards a wall with a certain structure on it. I saw a lot there, like persons appear in a dream, things and faces. I never felt that this distracted me, Rather I felt love or compassion towards them, zazen has such an effect to me. If it distracts you, perhaps you can look at something less likely to be perceived as faces, empty floor or wall maybe ? Gassho, Myoku

  4. #4
    Ah, the mind playing tricks! I recently had the wavy carpet effect (described below) sitting with Sydney in Mississippi ...

    All manner of sensory "tricks" can occur during Zazen. Sensory deprivation, and really paying attention to objects of sight that we usually do not pay attention to (the patterns on the carpet, for example) can have such an effect. These things usually are connected to the mechanics of the visual sense, and often beyond our control. It is just an optical illusion.

    Seeing patterns on the carpet or wall you are looking at, and floor undulation, is kind of like this effect produced by a bad carpet:

    http://www.moillusions.com/2007/11/w...-illusion.html

    Another common effect is to see "spots in the eyes". Most are there all along (floating impurities, early cataracts and such of the eyeball itself), but we just do not notice them until we sit still. Many are just the "cones and rods" of the eye that were there all along. The cones and rods of color, for example, are always present in our eyes, but we do not give them notice so often in day to day life. In Zazen, what is always there just stands out sometimes, and the brain plays some tricks by seeing "connect the dot" patterns.

    The eyes contain cones and rods for color that we usually do not notice (but, if you look at any object closely, you will see little dots of color, much like the picture tube of a color tv):

    http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/retina.html

    The sensory deprivation effect at staring at the white surface just brings the little dots to our attention, and they play pattern tricks in the brain.

    Like a new pair of glasses, the brain will adjust and soon not notice the dots as much. Maybe we are subconsciously looking for the patterns, and thus noticing the patterns. If we just forget about them, they usually go away.

    The brain tends to try to recognize objects in formless patterns such as we see the "man in the moon" or bunny rabbits in clouds or Jesus on a piece of toast. There is even a scientific name for it: Pareidolia

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22686500

    However, visual hallucinations are common in Zazen. Not a worry, nor of any particular importance other than as an amusement, possibly with a small lesson about how we create the world through the senses. What you are seeing is a fine lesson on how the mind can create a sense of reality. Learn that lesson, and return to just sitting.

    My suggestion: Change the carpet where you are sitting to something with less pattern suggestion, more monotone and a different color.

    If you would like to read a much longer post on "Makyo" illusions during Zazen, I will paste it below.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-27-2014 at 08:47 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  5. #5
    THE LONG VERSION:

    I have had many similar experiences scattered over the years, my body feeling very large or spaceless, a sense of floating. Once, a tiny Buddha popped out of the wall and we had a little conversation. In the Zen world, it is typical not to pay any special attention to such times.

    In Zen Practice, we have to be careful of certain games the mind will play during Zazen once in awhile ... including unusual visual and auditory sensations, brief periods of paranoia or panic, memories arising from deep down in our subconscious. Once, during a Sesshin, I became irate inside because I felt the monk at Sojiji sitting next to me was "encroaching on my space". I once had a little Buddha pop out of the wall and chat with me for several minutes (I pinched myself ... he stayed!), and felt like I was floating in the air. It is common during Sesshin, because of the strains involved, the "sensory deprivation", to experience such things as emotional swings, hearing becoming so sharp you can be disturbed by an ant walking across the room, strange bodily sensations such as feelings of floating or being giant sized, and paranoia.
    Do not drive them away or forcefully push them out ... neither grab them, cling to them or stir them up. If finding oneself doing any of that, simply open the hand of thought and let them go.

    If it happens once in awhile, it is not a particular concern ... just an interesting moment. If it happens very often, we may need to see what you are doing that may be causing such experiences.

    -------------------------------

    All manner of sensory "tricks" can occur during Zazen. Some are quite interesting, as seems this one. We may note them, but do not particlarly encourage them in our little corner of Buddhist meditation. ...

    In Zen Practice, we have to be careful of certain games the mind will play during Zazen once in awhile ... including unusual visual and auditory sensations, brief periods of paranoia or panic, memories arising from deep down in our subconscious. We are not used to the stillness and quiet of Zazen, and it lets certain memories, emotions, fears and like psychological states rise to the surface ... or allows some things (spots in our eyes that are always there even though not usually noticed, background sounds) to be noticed that are usually blocked out by all the noise and busyness in our heads, senses and around us.

    If it is just once in awhile ... and if you are aware of this, and it was not too overwhelming ... then I do not think it cause for worry. If it becomes too overwhelming, break off that sitting and take a little time off until you cool down. If it becomes a regular event, or too profound, that may be a sign of something else that needs to be approached. But, once in awhile ... I would not be concerned.

    We tend to call such things "Makyo", defined as follows (by Daido Loori Roshi). He speaks of hallucinatory like experiences ...

    In Zen, hallucinations are called makyo. It is not unusual for practitioners sitting in meditation for long periods of time to experience makyo. Some people feel like they are levitating, others see visions of the Buddha bathed in light, some hear sounds or voices. This in itself is not a problem. The problem arises when we confuse these experiences with enlightenment. When students come to me in dokusan to give me elaborate description of their makyo, a common response from me could be something like, “Oh, don’t worry about it—it will go away. Maybe you’re not sitting straight.” In other words, don’t attach to it. But if a dream is real, why isn’t makyo real? Are dreams, makyo, enlightenment and delusion the same, or are they different?
    We learn from all these experience ... we learn how the mind is like a theatre, and creates our experience of the life-world.

    I also posted this once ...

    Sensory deprivation, and really paying attention to objects of sight that we usually do not pay attention to (the patterns on the carpet, for example) can have such an effect. These things usually are connected to the mechanics of the visual sense, and often beyond our control. It is just an optical illusion.

    A dry as toast, but good book on the topic is Dr. Austin's Zen and the Brain ... he has a discussion of all manner of hallucinations here (from about page 373).

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...EJTUDyJTKBdEnA

    Seeing patterns on the carpet or wall you are looking at, and floor undulation, is kind of like this effect produced by a bad carpet:

    http://www.moillusions.com/2007/11/w...-illusion.html

    Another common effect is to see "spots in the eyes". Most are there all along (floating impurities, early cataracts and such of the eyeball itself), but we just do not notice them until we sit still. Many are just the "cones and rods" of the eye that were there all along. The cones and rods of color, for example, are always present in our eyes, but we do not give them notice so often in day to day life. In Zazen, what is always there just stands out sometimes, and the brain plays some tricks by seeing "connect the dot" patterns.

    The eyes contain cones and rods for color that we usually do not notice (but, if you look at any object closely, you will see little dots of color, much like the picture tube of a color tv):

    http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/retina.html

    The sensory deprivation effect at staring at the white surface just brings the little dots to our attention, and they play pattern tricks in the brain.

    Like a new pair of glasses, the brain will adjust and soon not notice the dots as much. Maybe we are subconsciously looking for the patterns, and thus noticing the patterns. If we just forget about them, they usually go away.

    The brain tends to try to recognize objects in formless patterns such as we see the "man in the moon" or bunny rabbits in clouds or Jesus on a piece of toast. There is even a scientific name for it: Pareidolia

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22686500

    However, visual hallucinations are common in Zazen. Not a worry, nor of any particular importance other than as an amusement, possibly with a small lesson about how we create the world through the senses:


    Hallucinations and Illusions

    Kornfield (1979, 1983) noted that there was a strong correlation between student reports of higher levels of concentration during insight meditation, when the mind was focused and steady, and reports of altered states and perceptions. He reported that unusual experiences, such as visual or auditory aberrations and hallucinations, and unusual somatic experiences, are the norm among practiced meditation students. Walsh (1978) reported that he experienced hypnagogic hallucinations, and Goleman (1978-79) reported visionary experiences during deep meditation. Shimano and Douglas (1975) reported hallucinations similar to toxic delirium during zazen.

    ... Earlier, Deikman (1966a) reported that during meditation on a blue vase, his subjects' perception of color became more intense or luminous, and that for some of them the vase changed shape, appeared to dissolve, or lost its boundaries. Maupin (1965) reported that meditators sometimes experience "hallucinoid feelings, muscle tension, sexual excitement, and intense sadness."

    The contemplative literature contains numerous descriptions of the perceptual distortion produced by meditation. It is called makyo in Zen Buddhist sources, and is characterized in some schools as "going to the movies," a sign of spiritual intensity but a phenomenon that is regarded to be distinctly inferior to the clear insight of settled practice. In some Hindu schools it is regarded as a product of the sukshma sharira, or "experience body," in its unstable state, and in that respect is seen to be another form of maya, which is the illusory nature of the world as apprehended by ordinary consciousness.

    In a similar manner, St. John of the Cross described the false enchantments that may lure the aspirant in prayer, warning that "devils may come in the guise of angels." [51] In his allegory of the spiritual journey, The Pilgrim's Progress, John Bunyan described Christian's losing his way by following a man who says he is going to the Celestial City but instead leads him into a net. In all the great contemplative manuals, one is taught that detachment, equanimity, and discrimination are required for spiritual balance once the mind has been opened and made more flexible by prayer and meditation. Illusions and hallucinations, whether they are troubling or beatific, are distractions—or signposts at best—on the way to enlightenment or union with God.

    http://noetic.org/meditation-bibliog...iography-info/
    Move along folks ... nothing to look at here! :-)

    Actually, it is all a fine lesson in how the body-mind-self-world are all interconnected.
    What you are seeing is a fine lesson on how the mind can create a sense of reality. Learn that lesson, and return to just sitting.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-27-2014 at 08:47 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  6. #6
    Hi,

    I had to paint over a spot on the wall a while back. Kept seeing things in it. Even Jundo with a long beard once. Also, almost every time, flower like rainbows expanding to the ege of my vision. After a while, its just part of sitting. Once I jumped up and ran inside the house because I was convinced there had been a tremendous explosion. I heard it clearly! My wife was sitting on the couch watching a show on TV peacefully, staring at me in amazement. There was nothing wrong at all. It can be very powerfull sometimes. amazing how our brain works.

    Gassho

    Myoho

  7. #7
    Well, my concentration must be very weak, I've never seen anything.
    I've read something about Makyo in Aitken Roshi's "Taking The Path Of Zen"

    Maybe I'm usually so busy trying not to get entangled in thoughts that I do not pay any attention to the sense of vision.

    Interesting anyway.


    Gassho,
    Walter.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Joyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walter View Post
    Well, my concentration must be very weak, I've never seen anything.
    I've read something about Makyo in Aitken Roshi's "Taking The Path Of Zen"

    Maybe I'm usually so busy trying not to get entangled in thoughts that I do not pay any attention to the sense of vision.

    Interesting anyway.


    Gassho,
    Walter.
    I am the same as you, Walter. Never seen anything during zazen. Just sitting with my thoughts, as they come and go.

    Gassho,
    Joyo

  9. #9
    I have had things disappear during zazen. I know my eyes are not closed and I am awake, but the wall in front of me is no longer there. Kind of a weird experience ... but mostly no faces stop by for a visit. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen
    倫道 真現

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Nengyo's Avatar
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    I get faces in my carpet on nights when I'm tired. I also get the disappearing thing. Never whole walls, but things that are in plain view. It never really bothers me. I just chalk it up to mind games and keep sitting.
    Try not to be a jerk-- one of the Buddhas

  11. #11
    Senior Member Nengyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyoHo View Post
    Hi,

    I had to paint over a spot on the wall a while back. Kept seeing things in it. Even Jundo with a long beard once. Also, almost every time, flower like rainbows expanding to the ege of my vision. After a while, its just part of sitting. Once I jumped up and ran inside the house because I was convinced there had been a tremendous explosion. I heard it clearly! My wife was sitting on the couch watching a show on TV peacefully, staring at me in amazement. There was nothing wrong at all. It can be very powerfull sometimes. amazing how our brain works.

    Gassho

    Myoho
    Hahaha, I've never had that happen during sitting, but I've had it happen while falling asleep. I'll hear something really loud, wake up startled, look around only to see a wife, boy, and kitty all sound asleep.
    Try not to be a jerk-- one of the Buddhas

  12. #12

  13. #13
    Senior Member Amelia's Avatar
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    I have had my boundaries dissolve, and I've seen faces and all sorts of twisting of objects. Sometimes, everything turns black and white. Weirdest is when my limbs feel like they are twisting and rotating... Nothing to worry about, ha! There is also a distracting face-place in my wall. I just tell myself to go with it, but not indulge in daydreaming.
    迎 Geika

  14. #14
    Speaking of optical illusions, Genkaku posted this today.

    Are they two or many or one?



    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  15. #15
    As this thread is about visual phenomena and the eyes: I don't really get what to do with them.

    When I'm floor-gazing, they go out of focus, like going soft.
    Then, Taigu said somewhere not to lose focus but watch the wall like watching distant mountains.
    That's good for staying very attentive, but has me blink a lot (more than I would watching mountains).

    How can I sit right in front of a wall, but not focus on the wall nearby, not unfocus, but watch mountains in the distance that are not there??

    This is a very zen-ny question...

    Gassho,
    Danny

  16. #16
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Danny,

    Just sit with eyes half opened and drop worrying about this and that.

    Gassho

    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  17. #17
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    It us normal to find issues with aspects of our sitting, In fact, it is part and parcel of the whole sitting experience.you may struggle with your eyes then shoulders then thumbs then knees...
    If is all ok. Accept who you are and sit this in this.
    Sit the self within the self.
    Don t give boundaries to who you are
    Don t believe your stories
    Don't think you must be wrong

    Just SIT

    Gassho

    T.
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  18. #18
    drop worrying about this and that

    Hardest part.


    Gassho,
    Danny

  19. #19
    Senior Member Nindo's Avatar
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    Have seen faces and other patterns in carpets, walls, curtains, wooden floorboards, linoleum.... I think it got less over time, and also my mind takes it so much less seriously if it happens now.
    Gassho,
    Nindo
    MTness

  20. #20
    No kidding ... I saw Hello Kitty in the wall during Zazen this evening ...

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post134721

    Gassho Kitty, Jundo
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  21. #21
    When you see things just keep sitting... don't run away like I did makes things a lot harder :/
    --Washu
    和 Harmony
    秀 Excellence

    "Trying to be happy by accumulating possessions is like trying to satisfy hunger by taping sandwiches all over your body" George Carlin Roshi

  22. #22
    I've had things momentarily disappear before, though more often due to daydreaming than optical illusion.
    Rod

  23. #23
    Senior Member Troy's Avatar
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    Faces in the carpet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    THE LONG VERSION:
    Once, a tiny Buddha popped out of the wall and we had a little conversation.
    Gassho, Jundo
    What did you guys talk about? What if something like this happens that is so profound and powerful that it changes your life forever. Something that connects you spiritually in a way that was unimaginable before. Something that replaced doubt with faith and belief.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Troy View Post
    What did you guys talk about? What if something like this happens that is so profound and powerful that it changes your life forever. Something that connects you spiritually in a way that was unimaginable before. Something that replaced doubt with faith and belief.
    Yeah, well, I'd still tell him to take a hike and let me get back to Sitting.

    As I recall, that little Buddha did not have much interesting to say at all (more of a "How Ya Doin'?" Buddha). However, even when encountering a powerful life changing vision, insight or other spiritual experience, we generally Bow to that, Appreciate such, learn from such and move on. Why?

    One reason is a rather strange view of what the "life changing lesson" might be as the fruit of Zen Practice. I once wrote this about Kensho in the below posts, but the point applies to Talking Buddhas, Visions of God, Timeless Insights and any other life changing experiences too ...

    ---

    Dogen tended to speak of "Enlightenment" ... not as some momentary experience to attain ... but as "Practice-Enlightenment", emphasizing that how we make Buddha Wisdom and Compassion manifest in our actual words, thoughts and deeds in this life is the real "Kensho".

    These momentary Kensho [or other] experiences can be light and deep and beyond light or deep. This can be much more profound and enveloping than a sensation of "I" feeling oneness or awe. HOWEVER, that does not matter because, generally in Soto, we consider all such experiences as passing scenery ... just a visit to the wonders of the Grand Canyon. One cannot stay there, as lovely as it is. Nice and educational place to visit ... would not, should not, could not truly live there. One can even live perfectly well never having visited the vast Canyon at all. The most important thing is to get on the bus, get on with the trip, get on with life from there. In our Soto Way, the WHOLE TRIP is Enlightenment when realized as such (that is the True "Kensho"!) ... not some momentary stop or passing scene or some final destination .

    The following is important, so BOLDFACE and UNDERLINE ...

    Different folks approach and define all this in their own way. In our Soto View, some folks way way way overvalue an experience of timelessly momentary "Kensho" ... as the be all and end all (beyond being or ending) of "Enlightenment" ... and chase after it like some gold ring on the merry go round. For Soto folks, that is like missing the point of the trip. For Soto Folks, when we realize such ... every moment of the Buddha-Bus trip, the scenery out the windows (both what we encounter as beautiful and what appears ugly), the moments of good health and moments of passing illness, the highway, the seats and windows, all the other passengers on the Bus who appear to be riding with us, when we board and someday when we are let off ... the whole Trip ... is all the Buddha-Bus, all Enlightenment and Kensho, all the "destination" beyond "coming" or "going" or "getting there", when realized as such (Kensho). This ride is what we make it.

    In a nutshell, a wondrous and important experience perhaps, but in "Zen Enlightenment" one comes to realize that even this ordinary, dusty, confining, sometimes joyous and sometimes ugly world is just as miraculous, wondrous, and "holy" as anything like that. The "Grand Canyon" or "Top of Mt. Everest" is a wonderful place to visit, but wouldn't want to live there. Scratching one's nose, taking out the trash, feeding the baby ... when we come to perceive this world as such ... is all as much the "Buddhaland" as anything with rainbow colored trees and cotton candy castles in the sky. In fact, the canyon vistas and the mountain top are ever before your eyes even now ... in the trash, your nose, in the hungry baby [(even in Mara!)]... although maybe hard to see. The most "boring and ordinary, beautiful or ugly" of this world is Extraordinary and Beautiful when properly understood.

    Most folks just don't pierce that fact and are lost in delusion about the Nature of the trip. Most sentient being "passengers" on this ride just don't realize that, feeling homesick, car sick, separated from all the other passengers, revolted or attracted to what they see ... filling the whole trip with thoughts of greed and anger, spoiling the journey, making a mess of the bus and harming themselves and the other riders, unhappy until they get to the "promised destination" somewhere down the road. They may even get to the Grand Canyon, snap a picture and buy a sovenier, then wonder "is that all it is"?

    I once wrote this on such Kensho (Seeing One's Nature) experiences ...

    For Kensho is, in fact, special as special ever has been or could be … a sacred jewel, key to the path, life’s vitality realized … nothing other than special!

    Yet Kensho is “nothing special” in that each and all facets of this life-world-self, bar none, are vital, sacred, a unique treasure – and every step of the path is central to the path. The “ordinary and mundane” is never ordinary. Every moment and any encounter, each breeze and blade of grass is special, sacred, a jewel in Indra’s Net. Thus, I do not mean to lower the import of Kensho in the least, but just to RAISE UP all of life, and every instant of practice, to one and the same par with Kensho, for such is the wholeness, intimacy, unity that is KENSHO’d in KENSHO.
    .
    Realizing that fact – that the most “ordinary” is sacred and whole and unbroken – is at the heart of Kensho! Failing to see Kensho as extraordinary insight into the extra-ordinariness and sacredness of both the sacred and ordinary is not to see “Kensho.”
    That is why many Soto folks, like Sawaki Roshi above, think "Kensho Schmensho" ... running after some timelessly momentary fireworky experience of "Kensho" is not True "Grocking the Nature" Buddha-Bus Kensho. He says ...

    You want to become a buddha? There’s no need to become a buddha! Now is simply now. You are simply you. And tell me, since you want to leave the place where you are,where is it exactly you want to go?
    Zazen means just sitting without even thinking of becoming buddha.
    We don’t achieve satori through practice: practice is satori. Each and every step is the goal.


    Something like that.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-29-2014 at 04:16 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  25. #25
    Great stuff Jundo, thank you. The idea of a wonderdull experiance that suddenly changes our lives and makes everything allright in a flash, is something that sounds like having crashd your car with no ensurance and hoping that while sitting on the curb, a miracle will happen or the car fairy will come to fix things. Its chasing miracles and running away from the reality the way it is. Our practice is about getting to grips with reality and suffering and not about fixing something. There is nothing ro fix. Kensho is getting a glimpse of that truth for a moment.

    Question Jundo: do you think our mind must mature through our practice before such kensho experiances can really stick?

  26. #26
    Sorry, the buddha phone decided to post ahead of me.

    Let me close the post:

    Gassho

    Myoho

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by MyoHo View Post

    Question Jundo: do you think our mind must mature through our practice before such kensho experiances can really stick?
    Yes. We are Buddha at the start of this practice with nothing to attain, still Buddha after practicing for 20 years with nothing to attain. But the Buddha who has been practicing for 20 years is probably better at it!

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  28. #28
    Senior Member Troy's Avatar
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    Faces in the carpet.

    Thanks Jundo That is beautiful. All of life is Kensho. All of life is our practice. We were given this life freely. We did not ask for it. We did not earn it. It was just given to us. Good or bad, each moment a miracle.

    My Kensho moment (if that is what it was) happened 11 months ago. It had a profound effect on me. I don't consider it a moment of enlightenment. Saying it was would be like getting some water in my mouth at the beach and saying I drank the entire ocean. It gave me more questions then answers. But what it did was plant a seed. That seed being faith in God (which I most certainly did not have before) and the thirst for a spiritual life (not to necessarily to be confused with a religious life). It is not an experience I seek to have again or an experience I was seeking in the first place, but I am grateful it happened. Perhaps I am interpreting it wrong, but that is how I experienced it. The only people I have ever told about this is my wife and mom who had different reactions. My wife was thankful I found faith (although our theologic understandings differ) and my mom thought I was visited by a demon. Quite polar opposite reactions, lol. Thank you for providing me with the Buddhist interpretations of such events. I am grateful to have you as a teacher.

    Deepest bows, Troy
    Last edited by Troy; 08-29-2014 at 05:02 PM.

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