Consuming alcohol

[Geika]

Thank you, Jundo. I really feel the same way.

Gassho

[Meikyo]

Thank you, Jundo. I really feel the same way.

Gassho

Yes.

Gassho

[drunkenboat]

I have been thinking a lot about the issue of alcohol lately, as I have begun to sit zazen again after five years. Part of the reason why I stopped was because I had a big upheaval in my life. I fell in love with a woman from Spain and found myself uprooted and living in an entirely different continent with a new language and a new culture that differs greatly from the Puritanical, American culture in which I was raised.

In Arizona, friends often say to each other "Let's grab a coffee," and then they catch up at the coffee shop. Here in Spain we say "Vamos a tomar algo," meaning "Lets get a drink" and by "drink" everyone means beer. Or maybe wine, in the winter.

Socializing, for better or for worse, in a Spanish context, is done in bars. The interesting thing is that the American concept of a bar -- a damp, dimly-lit cave-like atmosphere with couple of shady types huddled around a pool table -- is almost impossible to find over here. Bars are full of light. They're loud with chatter and laughter. No one drinks alone. In the summer everyone sits out on sidewalk terraces.

Living outside of America now, I see how American views on alcohol -- decidedly negative -- have influenced our relationship to the substance. Let's not forget that alcohol was illegal in the States not too long ago. If our perception of alcohol stems from stems from our deeply embedded Puritanical, dualistic thinking ("alcohol is for when you're sad and want to drown your sorrows, alcohol is for unbridled, hedonistic partying, alcohol only leads to ever darker, deeper depravity"), then alcohol will always manage to be just that.

I am exaggerating to make a point, of course. At least in my mind, these views and tendencies are not so pronounced; they lurk under my surface perceptions.

So getting back to what I was saying about drinking here in Spain, I am faced with a dilemma: what do I do when I am out with my friends? Abstain? It's a bit like the Jehova's Witness kids at school who refused to pledge allegiance to the flag: of course I can abstain, but there is a real risk of isolating the people around me as a result.

I personally find myself susceptible to a subtle and insidious PRIDE that can sometimes piggyback on my practice if I'm not careful: self-congratulatory feelings for keeping up zazen every day, etc. Abstaining absolutely from alcohol -- in MY view, I reiterate -- could easily meld itself to a sense of superiority if I'm not careful, or give rise to feelings of pity or disdain for all the ignorant people around me busy intoxicating themselves senselessly.

I recently read -- after having read Jundo's recommendation -- "Bringing the Sacred to Life" by John Daido Loori. In the questions and answers section I was struck by what Loori had to say about rigidity in practice:

Discipline is different from rigidity. There is a tremendous difference between being locked into something and being personally disciplined. If you lose your sense of humor, lose your flexibility, take a close look at what you're doing. Are you looking for control or for freedom? Attaining complete freedom is implicit in this practice. That's what should be coming out your zazen. Instead of tightening, you should be loosening up {emphasis mine}.

Maybe joining our friends for a beer or two -- or three, why not? -- allows us to connect more deeply with them in that moment, overriding any mind-made ideas of "poison" and the like.

I personally like restrictions. They help me construct identity. I'm Buddhist. That means I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't get angry. I don't fantasize about women or money or travel... BUT these restrictions really just set me apart from THE OTHERS, the non-Buddhists, the drinkers, the smokers, the ones prone to anger, the sex maniacs, the wealth-seeking go-getters, the globetrotters. This, I realize, is just an ego game.

So for that reason, I might go out and drink with my friends. They don't see that as a bad thing; I made that in my mind. And hopefully it also serves to show me that I am not so special, and the point is to be flexible, not rigid.

Addictions are another thing, of course. But I am speaking from my experience as someone who does not have any drinking problem.

What do you think? Am I way out in left field?

[Ryumon]

Interesting point. I grew up in the US, moved to France almost 30 years ago, then moved to the UK a year and a half ago. French people drink in cafés, for the most part (unless they're in clubs, or in upscale bars in big cities). Until a few years ago, these were sleazy places with lots of cigarette smoke, and lots of alcoholics. There are, of course, plenty of nicer cafés, but the default café is one where you really don't want to hang out very long.

Here in the UK, pubs are totally different. First, most of them serve food, and many have very good food. Second, while there's lots of rowdiness on weekends - I never go to pubs on Friday or Saturday nights - they're often very relaxed places.

This said, I would disagree with your description of American bars. Yes, there were some of those where I grew up in Queens, but when I lived in Manhattan, most bars were a lot nicer. A lot depends on the size of the town or city you are in. You're in Madrid, and I think you'd find things very different in smaller towns in Spain.

So, yes, cultural constructs around drinking affect the way people see alcohol. In France, while there are a lot of alcoholics, the general feeling is one of relaxed tolerance; drink a little, it's fine; get soused at a meal with friends, that's okay every now and then. In the UK, on the other hand, there's a lot more stigma to drinking, going as far as using a "units of alcohol" system on bottles of beer or wine. One bottle of beer may have, say, 2.3 units of alcohol - easy to keep track - and another less than 2; it's all based on the alcohol percentage. There are public campaigns against drinking in the UK, as binge drinking is a big problem (I saw this when I lived in York for 8 months; the number of totally shit-faced people on the streets on weekend evenings - and not very late - is astounding). In France, however, bing drinking hasn't really taken hold.

Anyway, I drink a bit; I like wine, cider, single malt whiskeys. I don't prohibit it, but I try and remain relatively moderate. But I won't hesitate to enjoy myself at a meal with friends over a few bottles of wine.

Gassho,

Kirk

[Risho]

To me moderation is the key, and isn't that the Middle Way? As pointed out, to some a drop of alcohol is poison because some people are addicted to alcohol. For example, I have friends who can smoke a cigarette once in a while. I used to smoke regularly 12 years ago, and if I had one now it would be poison; I'd probably be right back into it.

But I like having a drink once in a while... in moderation. Drinking to me is not poisonous. If I'm around others, who it is damaging to or has affected negatively, I will abstain completely. Otherwise, I have a beer. I like beer. Oh of course it must be done responsibly... no driving. That is all part of moderation.

Here in Florida we have really cool bars dedicated to beer, and they also have good pub grub as well.... although I'd love to get my hands on some "official" fish and chips in the UK some time

It's funny that the precepts discussion on intoxicants always goes to alcohol when there is another intoxicant that we often consume far more of, caffeine. That is like poison to me actually. I had to stop drinking caffeinated drinks... it throws me way off. And that is absolutely a drug. Further, a drug mustn't necessarily be alcohol or a drug -- it could be too much of anything that can take us over and be damaging to us (tv, food, people, etc).

Oh and to drunkenboat... you are right.. we are very puritanical about drinking in the US. Funny fact, alcohol could have been illegal and marijuana legalized but the powers that be went for alcohol. lol

Gassho,

Risho

[Daitetsu]

I think it depends on the context as many have said here.

While I live in Germany - which is known for its enormous beer consumption - I hardly consume any beer during the year.
Perhaps in summer when it's hot outside. When I have to drive though (and most times I want to drive myself) I have a zero alcohol policy.
However, when I was in France having a glass of white wine to a baguette and some cheese, listening to the waves crashing on the shore - man, it's hard to beat that combination...

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[Andrea1974]

Friday evenight...long week of work is over...sitting on the porch....drinking a glass of red wine with my wife...watching sunset...talking and laughing together; it is a very healthy habit (for me).

"Everything in moderation, including moderation.” -Oscar Wilde

[Khalil Bodhi]

If only to add a counter-point I admit that I'm a complete teetotaler when it comes to the precept. In my own, unenlightened perception even a little fire burns and I trust in the Lord Buddha's wisdom whne he devised the five precepts for his lay followers as the best way to get out from under suffering. But, to each her/his own. May we all find true happiness in this very life!

[Jundo]

If only to add a counter-point I admit that I'm a complete teetotaler when it comes to the precept. In my own, unenlightened perception even a little fire burns and I trust in the Lord Buddha's wisdom whne he devised the five precepts for his lay followers as the best way to get out from under suffering. But, to each her/his own. May we all find true happiness in this very life!

Hi KB,

I will say this, and it is a bit of a Mahayana interpretation of such. In our strange way of viewing Samsara with a Buddha's Eye, one may leave home and (if the heart is right) stay at home with one's family without the least contradiction, one may have a family and children and (if the heart is pure in one's motives) maintain "celibacy" at once ...

VIMALAKIRTI NIRDESA SUTRA

At that time in the great city of Vaishali there was a rich man named Vimalakirti. ... His mind was cleansed and purified through long practice of the Buddha Way, firm in its grasp of the Great Vehicle, and all his actions were well thought out and planned. He maintained the dignity and authority of a Buddha, and his mind was vast as the sea. All the Buddhas sighed with admiration, and he commanded the respect of the disciplies, of Indra, Brahma, and the Four Heavenly Kings. ... Though dressed in the white robes of a layman, he observed all the rules of pure conduct laid down for monks, and though he lived at home, he felt no attachment to the threefold world. One could see he had a wife and children, yet he was at all times chaste in action; obviously he had kin and household attendants, yet he always delighted in withdrawing from them. Although he wore jewels and finery, his real adornment was the auspicious marks; although he ate and drank like others, what he truly savored was the joy of meditation. ... He engaged in all sorts of businesses, yet had no interest in profit or possessions. To train living beings, he would appear at crossroads and on street corners, and to protect them he participated in government. To turn people away from the Hinayana and to engage them in the Mahayana, he appeared among listeners and teachers of the Dharma. To develop children, he visited all the schools. To demonstrate the evils of desire, he even entered the brothels. To establish drunkards in correct mindfulness, he entered all the cabarets.

... and one perhaps can drink in moderation and (if the heart is balanced and pure), remain a "teatotaler" at once. However, it takes great wisdom and balance to be able to live so.

Buddhism has changed and changed and changed again, as it moved from land to land. Many "Greater Vehicle" Mahayana folks believed that the Buddha intended his early "Lesser Vehicle" Teachings (a term that has gone out of favor) for certain ears and audiences who, perhaps, could not hear ... and live the great wisdom and balance ... of the Perfection of Wisdom. I personally think that it is just different teaching for different ears ... not a matter of lesser or greater ... and that some folks need to take the Precepts and other Teachings one way, some another, for their own Path and needs.

Gassho, J

[Khalil Bodhi]

[Taigu]

What works best for me is not to drink on a daily basis. Not a single drop. So from Monday to Friday, I am completly sober. I only drink during the weekend and fine wine with meals.
The fact is I don't like what booze does to my brain, the way it changes my consciousness. I just love the clarity, crispness and space without it. With it, everything is numb and foggy.

Gassho

Taigu

[Kokuu]

The fact is I don't like what booze does to my brain, the way it changes my consciousness. I just love the clarity, crispness and space without it. With it, everything is numb and foggy.

I agree totally with this, Taigu. It would seem strange to be spending a large part of the day sitting on a cushion so my mind became clear and bright only to then cloud it up again.

That said, this only applies to myself, and is the reason I have always considered this precept to be a total prohibition on alcohol and drugs (I do consume green tea in moderation though) but I would not presume to dictate how other people choose to interpret it for themselves.

Gassho
Kokuu

[TimF]

Sorry...I couldn't resist

Gassho,
Tim

[Jundo]

Yes, well ... perhaps best to resist the attraction of that particular Buddha.

[robert]

Hi Treeleafers -- I haven't been here in a long, long time. My sitting practice dropped off a couple years ago, and at one point I just decided I wasn't a Buddhist at all. After making that decision, I felt a kind of "license to drink" -- that is, my alcohol intake increased considerably. I'm not an addict and don't have the propensity to become addicted, but certainly I was drinking more than I did when I considered myself a practicing Buddhist who was at least trying to align himself with the precepts.

Ironically enough, alcohol -- or more precisely, observing what went on in the mind during the course of drinking -- was one of the things that has prompted me to take another look at the dharma.

I had developed the habit of enjoying some beer or wine in the evening, usually out on the porch, or in the company of a good book, or perhaps in the kitchen while cooking. And I became more conscious than before of the way the buzz from alcohol reaches a peak -- at which point you feel really, really good -- and then starts to drop off. At that point, you can let it go and say "ok, that was that". Or you can try to sustain it by refilling your glass or opening another bottle, but what tends to happen in that case is that the initial euphoria gives way to drunkenness, which is a different and (to my mind) less pleasant sensation. The returns diminish the more you consume, and the risk of a morning hangover increases.

What caught my attention here is the difficulty/impossibility of sustaining the "sweet spot" -- that point early on where you feel blissed out as a result of the alcohol hitting your brain. So it made me think about bliss in general, and about impermanence, and about the possibility of finding a different kind of bliss...well, you see where this is going. The drinking experience is dukkha-prone in that it delivers a high that can't be sustained, which in turn generates clinging (the desire to keep the buzz going), and in a bad-case scenario an entire vicious cycle that ends in a throbbing headache or worse.

[Jundo]

What caught my attention here is the difficulty/impossibility of sustaining the "sweet spot" -- that point early on where you feel blissed out as a result of the alcohol hitting your brain. So it made me think about bliss in general, and about impermanence, and about the possibility of finding a different kind of bliss...well, you see where this is going. The drinking experience is dukkha-prone in that it delivers a high that can't be sustained, which in turn generates clinging (the desire to keep the buzz going), and in a bad-case scenario an entire vicious cycle that ends in a throbbing headache or worse.

Yes, I believe that brain scans of drinkers have shown (although the scientific understanding of the mechanism and process is far from clear) that this has to do with the different portions of the brain which are activated/de-activated as drinking continues. Many drinkers have experienced this when going too far. First, there tends to be relaxation and elation ... eventually loss of inhibition ... violence (the bar fight) ... sadness ... hangover ...

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...ell-bar-fights

Gassho, J

[robert]

Yes, I believe that brain scans of drinkers have shown (although the scientific understanding of the mechanism and process is far from clear) that this has to do with the different portions of the brain which are activated/de-activated as drinking continues. Many drinkers have experienced this when going too far. First, there tends to be relaxation and elation ... eventually loss of inhibition ... violence (the bar fight) ... sadness ... hangover ...

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...ell-bar-fights

Gassho, J

That's a very interesting read. Ever see Barfly, the Bukowski movie? Kind of reminds me of that. Except he seemed to revel in the whole thing.

[Biko]

The only reason alcohol (and any drugs) can be negative is that it can cause you to make bad choices and violate other precepts. I know for myself I cant really touch the booze because I turn into the Incredible Hulk on crack and it just isnt good for me or anyone around me. I'm not in "recovery" per se, I just don't do it. In the end it's about choices and we can only make those for ourselves and take responsibility for the crops we sow.

Gassho,
Jeffrey

[Ugrok]

Maybe i will appear totally foolish here, but sometimes, it is really good for me to be totally stupid and drink and have fun, all while knowing, deeply, that this is "dukkha". I know i will suffer on the next day, i know it's stupid, but there is a kind of joy in letting go and accepting to suffer as well. You know, those "oh well, screw this !" moments. Thing is to not have a lot of them, but from time to time, i find it does me a ton of good, even if there is a headache the next morning.

Gassho,

Ugrok

[Jundo]

Hi Ugrok,

Actually, in Japan and many places in Asia such "let loose" days are built into the calendar or "look the other way" tolerated or even celebrated in custom and literature. So long as once in awhile and nobody gets seriously hurt, then people need to let off steam. Of course, we must recall again that to some addicts even one drop is poison, so zero tolerance there.

Gassho, Jundo

[Joryu]

Middle Way

[JohnsonCM]

I used to drink quite heavily, but stopped because it interfered with my life too much. I guess it is all in why you drink and how much you consume. A little bit every now and again might not be an issue but going to excess almost always is

[RichardH]

This afternoon we had a 60th Anniversary party for the inlaws. It was a get-together of many people we have not seen for years. It was interesting to see how people do not change that much. Some do not drink at all. Some drink a bit and do not seem very effected. Some just have a little champagne for the toast, but seem more effected. A couple of people knock it back and get lively. One does not know when to stop has to be taken home before she starts to act out.. All in all... not much change from a gathering of the same people ten years ago. I had a glass of champagne for the toast, but only drank half of it because alcohol gives me instant acid reflux. My craving struggle is with the little spinach and feta phyllo pastries.

Gassho
Daizan

[jphiled]

I've been there. I visit Japan yearly, and one of our family friends is an older gentleman who lost his wife a couple years ago due to a sudden bout of pneumonia (less than a single day). Talk about the fragility of life. Anyhow, since then, he went from a very cheerful, hardworking old man to a very quiet, sullen one and hasn't been the same since. He liked to drink before, but drinks more now. I've had a beer with him a couple times in the past becuse I didn't want to be rude, and also because I know how lonely he gets. I'm not proud of it (since I relaly do try to abstain from alcohol), but I felt it was the right thing to do at the time.

But I can't claim to be very pious though. When living in Ireland for a year, I finally had a Guiness at my own going-away party just so I could say I had a Guiness in Ireland.

IMHO, the Buddha is right in that alcohol and such lead to heedlessness and regret, but if you are in a situation where you must/should/ought to drink then at least excercise some caution and moderation.

[delphizealot]

It's funny that the precepts discussion on intoxicants always goes to alcohol when there is another intoxicant that we often consume far more of, caffeine.

Personally, I think the intoxicant with which I've had the most trouble is refined sugar. It has undeniably potent physiological effects, but it's also something that we need to survive; at least where I live in the US, though, I can easily consume quite a bit more of it than is strictly necessary for sustaining life. Craving is perhaps most readily tangible when I notice the box of donuts on the conference room table and my mouth reflexively waters, some part of my mind drifting into a Homer Simpsonesque fantasy even while I realize I just missed what my coworker was trying to tell me.

[Geika]

I don't think that the occasional drink, even one or two a day, is anything to feel guilty about if we are observing, with fairness, our personal addictions, how we behave, and whether or not consistent practice takes the backseat when we are getting what we want or having fun. I often think of Taigu saying, "Take great care."

Gassho

[Biko]

Speaking of alcoholism. If you get the chance you should see Crazy Wisdom: The Life & Times of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. It's an incredible documentary on an incredible man. A tiny book of his quotations goes with me everywhere.

Gassho,
Jeffrey

[Tai Shi]

I have been totally refraining from alcohol and all illegal drugs for almost 28 years, this out of choice. I have been totally away from tobacco in any form for almost 14 years. About 3 years ago I gave up caffeine in any known form. Now I would find the taste and effects of such commodities repugnant, and I feel better all the way around. Not to judge for others, this is the way for me, and with my commitment to Buddhist ideas and practice as of late, about two years ago, I am content with these conscious decisions as each of these substances in their on times became a problem. My decisions add to family life and interactions with friends.

[Biko]

On the subject of sugar, caffeine and the like: I dont really consider them intoxicants per se. They are certainly not good for your health but I dont think anyone has ever cheated on their spouse as a direct result of one too many cups of coffee.
**Literally typing as I drink a cup of coffee**

Gassho,
Jeffrey

[Tom]

Dear All, there's a lot of research now and dependence is closely linked to genetics.

[Ansan]

My father was an alcoholic. He joined AA and swore off for years until he developed a heart condition. His doctor advised him to have an occasional drink to help him relax (his blood pressure was very high). He died at the age of 52 after multiple attacks. That was back in the 60s. I was always concerned about inheriting this condition, so I abstained but relaxed my attitude as the years went by. My husband made his own beer...who can resist a good homemade Belgian brew? Now I usually have one beer in the late evening and share one with my husband while we discuss the events of the day just before going to bed. Most of the time, I never finish it completely. Sleep is more important to me. Circumstances dictate how we should proceed in life and its challenges, including the pleasure of sharing with the man I love while sitting on the porch watching the meteors. Middle of the road. That is where the joy is. No guilt. No addiction.

Gassho,
Ka

ps. Yikes!!! Does anyone even really consider having an alcoholic drink at Zazen?? I won't even have a cup of green tea until afterward.

[Mitty-san]

I've seen drinking create a lot of problems but never seen it solve one.

According the US government's CDC at http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm:

...Excessive alcohol use led to approximately 88,000 deaths and 2.5 million years of potential life lost (YPLL) each year in the United States from 2006 – 2010, shortening the lives of those who died by an average of 30 years. Further, excessive drinking was responsible for 1 in 10 deaths among working-age adults aged 20-64 years. The economic costs of excessive alcohol consumption in 2010 were estimated at $249 billion, or $2.05 a drink.

Maybe it's partly just people my age, but a lot of activities, especially in college, revolve around binge drinking. I've heard about and personally seen a lot of stupid drunken behavior, damaging themselves, property, or relationships in bad ways. I've even seen people plan to behave irresponsibly when they get drunk because they know they can use the alcohol as an excuse. I've also seen people get peer-pressured into drinking and then later develop a drinking problem because of it. Some people can handle it but others can't and it creates problems for them and those around them. From my experience, when drinking, at best people just don't get any worse than they normally are. I understand it can help with social bonding or to relax but that can be said of a lot of less-risky things.

On the other hand, I do have to agree, one wine or beer probably won't cause any problems by itself.

You don't have to worry if the bite of a snake is poisonous if you don't pick up the snake.

Gassho, Jishin

Jishin, nice quote. I must concur.

,

Paul

Sat today.

[Jishin]

Jishin, nice quote. I must concur.

I think I made it you so I am going to patent it.

"You don't have to worry if the bite of a snake is poisonous if you don't pick up the snake."- Jishin 2016



Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Sekishi]

"You don't have to worry if the bite of a snake is poisonous if you don't pick up the snake."- Jishin 2016

"In a room full of ill-trained snake handlers, your being still and empty-handed may give someone else the courage to put their snake down." - Sekishi 2016 (C)

"Snakes, why did it have to be snakes?" - Indiana Jones 1936 / - George Lucas 1981 (C)



Gassho,
Sekishi
#sattoday
#nosnakes

[Mitty-san]

Ha, I'll have to add the copyright symbol when using these quotes now.

Sekishi, nice quote too. Remembering your previous post in this thread now, it's a good thing what you do.



Paul

Sat today.

[jgotthart]

I would definitely agree with Jundo. With my own experience, I quit drinking quite a while before I came to Zen because I tend to have a very addictive personality. So for myself I know that if I were to consume any amount of alcohol it would just be another topper on the pile of suffering. I definitely don't see anything wrong with it for someone that can handle it in moderation. Also, I know as it was mentioned, that other forms of Buddhism (such as Therevada) ban it completely because of the idea that it's an avenue towards breaking the other precepts and that it damages the mind and so on. Just thought I would throw my experience with alcohol into this conversation. Good luck with your practice.

Gassho,
John

[Zenmei]

I'm an addict using the dharma as my recovery program (literally: http://www.refugerecovery.org, feel free to msg me if you want to know more). Working with addicts (chemical, process addictions, eating disorders, all the same, not-two) I see how addiction is really just an extreme version of the craving and aversion that's a normal part of the human experience, and it's exactly what the Buddha was talking about in the first two noble truths.

Some drugs have a stronger dopamine response, so they may lead to negative life consequences faster, but there's no real difference between alcohol and crystal meth. Or slot machines. Or cutting. Or computer duster.

For people who aren't using a drug to avoid their own dissatisfaction, maybe a glass of wine with dinner is fine? I don't understand you weirdos who can do that, though

Grasshoppers,
Dudley
(sat today)

[Cyd]

That is very good Program Dudley I knew the Founder years and years ago grewup in the same town at same time went to the same shows.
metta to you.


Gassho
Cyd
Sat-2-Day

[Mitty-san]

John, Dudley, and anyone else who has had problems with addiction, thanks for sharing your experience. If you don't mind asking, does being surrounded by alcohol at many social events or even having events centered around drinking make things harder for you to stay sober/clean?

I've seen social pressure around alcohol push people into places they should never have gone. It's one reason my opinion on alcohol is more towards none than moderation.

Gassho,

Paul

Sat today.

[Jishin]

John, Dudley, and anyone else who has had problems with addiction, thanks for sharing your experience. If you don't mind asking, does being surrounded by alcohol at many social events or even having events centered around drinking make things harder for you to stay sober/clean?

I've seen social pressure around alcohol push people into places they should never have gone. It's one reason my opinion on alcohol is more towards none than moderation.

Gassho,

Paul

Sat today.

I been sober for 17 years, 2 months, six days, 11 hours and 15 minutes.

In the beginning I had the fear of relapse. Now it just smells bad and people act out of character when drinking. Sometimes way out of character and this really puts me off. Alcohol is a plague. It is a mind altering substance and it should be banned regardless as to whether it alters the mind a little or a lot.

"You don't have to worry if the bite of a snake is poisonous if you don't pick up the snake."- Jishin 2016

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Zenmei]

I've been sober for somewhere around 200 days. Yes, seeing alcohol or other drugs does make me want to use sometimes. I avoid situations where drinking is the focus because it's just not worth the risk to me. Even so, I get plenty of chances to practice letting go of this particular attachment, nearly every day.

If someone who usually drinks asks me if drinking around me is a problem, I tell them it's fine and I thank them for their concern. That's a kind gesture, and it actually makes it easier for me not to drink.

Using drugs creates suffering. Banning them creates more suffering. Drug abuse is an expression of the underlying pain of being human. The only way to stop the suffering that drug abuse causes is to stop the suffering that causes drug abuse.

Grasshoppers,
Dudley
(sat)

[Rich]

The desire to have or be something other than what is right here and now is strengthened by habit of repetition. With practice his habit can be loosened and the bondage broken.

Sat today

[Doshin]

I like snakes. I moved two diamondback rattlesnakes off the road last night (do that alot this time of the year since the monsoons bring them out, you know, save all sentient beings). But I do like and appreciate the copyrighted Jishin quote.

Doshin
sattoday

[Sekishi]

I like snakes. I moved two diamondback rattlesnakes off the road last night (do that alot this time of the year since the monsoons bring them out, you know, save all sentient beings). But I do like and appreciate the copyrighted Jishin quote.

That is hilarious, I wondered when you would show up in this thread. I even considered posting a followup like:

"Snakes? What is wrong with snakes? Some of the finest beings I know are snakes! Some of them even make cool rattling noises!" - Doshin (c) 2016



Gassho,
Sekishi
#sattoday

[Sekishi]

Sekishi, nice quote too. Remembering your previous post in this thread now, it's a good thing what you do.

Thanks, but it is literally the least I could do. Deep bows to all that struggle with this.

Gassho,
Sekishi

#sattoday

[Doshin]

That is hilarious, I wondered when you would show up in this thread. I even considered posting a followup like:

"Snakes? What is wrong with snakes? Some of the finest beings I know are snakes! Some of them even make cool rattling noises!" - Doshin (c) 2016



Gassho,
Sekishi
#sattoday

Sekishi, you know me well. I am so obvious on how I feel on FB.

Doshin
sattoday

[Jishin]

Here are some cool snakes but they are pretty harmless:





Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Kyotai]

Nice tats Jishin

Gassho, Kyotai
ST

[Mitty-san]

Nice tattoos, Jishin. If Trump wins, you could surely move to Japan and join the Yakuza.

Dudley and Jishin, thanks for sharing you experience. I've been fortunate to have never suffered from addiction myself. From what you and others have said and I've seen from others, it sounds to me like underlying pain (and genetic factors) drive people to drugs/alcohol but having these things so readily available makes it easier to fall into the trap instead of finding a healthier way to cope, such as practicing Zen at Treeleaf. I tried searching about this on Google Scholar to see what the research says but unfortunately a lot of the articles about alcoholism are behind paywalls.

Thanks again for your sharing and insights.



Paul

Sat today.

[Kaishin]

I've found that alcohol consumption is incompatible with practice.

I still drink sometimes, because I really love craft beer, but I always regret it.