Question on the first precept...Meat eating

[bya]

Just my opinion, but it seems that our very existence involves the taking of life. If we choose to eat only vegetables, fruits, and grains, then what of the habitat that we take from other living beings? Not to mention pesticides. Even driving in your car. Anyone who's cleaned a windshield has witnessed this. Do we watch every step when walking? So much to consider. I think it is more than just meat or no meat.

It is a fact that, by living on this planet, every animal and every plant too, "disturbs" someone else. It is a matter of love and empathy to reduce this stress to the lowest possible grade.
Not to kill and not to eat flesh ( -> ask someone else to kill in my place) represent, in my humble opinion, the very entry level of empathy.
A further level could be considered to eat only organic food, to become a vegan maybe, to use car only when really needed and so on...

[Shinyo]

Something of interest to this discussion: http://www.businessinsider.com/plant...-eaten-2014-10


Gassho,
Shinyo

[Myosha]

Hello,

Thank you for the link. Terrific subject.

For one to live, one must die.


Gassho,
Myosha

[Biko]

I often see a lot of mental gymnastics from Buddhists who eat animal flesh to justify the habit. And that is exactly what it is, a habit and quite possibly an addiction. It's talked about like it is tantamount to kicking heroin. It is an attachment. To my mind if someone has taken Jukai and taken the precepts into their karmic sphere, to continue to engage in the consumption of sentient beings is a pretty grievous violation. Of course we are a biological being that needs to consume once or currently living matter in order to fuel and heal our organism / biological shell / mortal coil, but as preceptors it is our karmic responsibility to eat as low on the food chain as we possibly can and for most of us in the free world, that means plants, dairy and MAYBE eggs. If you really need help kicking meat, the next time you are eating it imagine that you are devouring a beloved family member or partner, because if you believe in rebirth, it literally has been those people, several times over.

Gassho,
Jeffrey

[Shinyo]

Both sides will rationalize to make a point, much like politics. maybe a middle way is healthier. I don't know. I'm not enlightened, so very limited in knowing what is "right".

Gassho,
Shinyo

[TimF]

Well, I hate to kick a hornet's nest here, but I would like someone to prove to me, beyond a reasonable doubt, that plants are not 'sentient', because some of mine sure behave like they are!

I think it comes down to respect versus abuse and waste. If you respect what you eat (no mental gymnastics here). and do not conduct your eating habits in a wasteful or abusive manner, then I think you are doing the best you can in a world - and universe - that is complicated beyond our imagination.

Gassho,
Tim

[Shinyo]

Yes. Respect and gratitude. When we are wasteful, we are disrespectful. That food didn't just jump onto the plate. It is good to be mindful of where the food came from, who prepared it, who grew it, who harvested it, who cared for it, and on and on. So much to be grateful for in each bite that prolongs our lives.

Gassho,
Shinyo

[Stacy]

Well, I hate to kick a hornet's nest here, but I would like someone to prove to me, beyond a reasonable doubt, that plants are not 'sentient', because some of mine sure behave like they are!

I think it comes down to respect versus abuse and waste. If you respect what you eat (no mental gymnastics here). and do not conduct your eating habits in a wasteful or abusive manner, then I think you are doing the best you can in a world - and universe - that is complicated beyond our imagination.

Gassho,
Tim

Yes. Respect and gratitude. When we are wasteful, we are disrespectful. That food didn't just jump onto the plate. It is good to be mindful of where the food came from, who prepared it, who grew it, who harvested it, who cared for it, and on and on. So much to be grateful for in each bite that prolongs our lives.

Gassho,
Shinyo

Whatever the case may be, I respect everyone here for their own decisions. It is all opinions (which we can also get attached to). We must each figure out our middle way in all of this, and we also have other factors at work (such as income, locations, and illness) that prevent us from doing what might be ideal.

Metta to each and every single one of you.

Gassho,
Stacy

[Shinyo]

Yes Stacy. It really is about opinions and attachments. As humans, it is difficult for us to let go of attachments. So much so that we feel the need to defend them. I think it's good to remain open, not concluding.

Gassho,
Shinyo

[bya]

Thank you for the article, interesting subject. My two cents: we should not judge suffering only through our perception solely. A fish won't cry or scream, but suffers a lot when beaten or killed. So I think se won't have to say that plants don't suffer only because we don't "ear" their lamentations. So we have to investigate. Science help us a lot, of course, and can also help us to discriminate what has or not a central nervous system, that is the very basis to feel something like pain. I think that, at least, we should not kill ANY sentient being, that is any living creature with neurons. Vegetables surely possess some mechanisms to survive (they are living beings) but they are not sentient in the way a cow is. So I prefer to eat vegetables than cows, just because this behaviour produces less suffering. But you could also eat only fruits and seeds, without harming plants.

I am sorry but I think that to eat or not to eat meat, particularly for a Buddhist, cannot be a matter of "choice" or "opinion": that is because I can express my preference regarding colors or music (for example) harming none but, when I express my " choice " to kill a sentient creature that for sure (!) can feel pain and fear as I can, I am simply killing.
Even slavery, a long time ago, was a matter of choice, just because the law allowed it.

Gassho.

Bya

Something of interest to this discussion: http://www.businessinsider.com/plant...-eaten-2014-10


Gassho,
Shinyo

[TimF]

An interesting article...

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...elligent-plant

Gassho,
Tim

[Myosha]

Hello,

Thank you for the link.

Favorite anecdote from a Corsera program: "Plants know when they've been touched. They just don't know who you are."

You know . . . like riding the subway.^^


Gassho,
Myosha

[Biko]

Also now there is lab grown meat which is nothing but cells so it most definitely is not sentient. Maybe this could be the methadone of buddhist carnivores.

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/diet-f...it-f6C10830536

Gassho,
Jeffrey

[delphizealot]

Honestly, I think lab grown meat is a great idea, as long as it can be developed in a way that's both healthy and economical. Aside from the ethical considerations, one of the biggest issues with raising meat for food is that it's an extremely inefficient and wasteful process. An engineered process could potentially be much more efficient.

Migrating to a lab-grown meat or meatless society would have some interesting follow-on consequences, though. For one thing, the vast majority of our domestic livestock could not survive in the wild, even if there were enough wild land to support them. We would effectively have to cull their population down over time, with the remaining few members relegated to zoos/reserves or kept as pets. I think it's quite possible this will eventually happen as our culture and technology evolves.

[Shinyo]

I agree that there is much waste when it comes to the production of meat, especially cattle. Water is a huge resource involved. I certainly don't have the answers to this, but will try to not become attached to my conclusions. Better yet, don't conclude. I'm working on a master's degree in Environmental policy and management. I love nature.

Gassho,
Shinyo

[Meishin]

Hello,

Thank you for the link.

Favorite anecdote from a Corsera program: Plants know when they've been touched. They just don't know who you are.

You know . . . like riding the subway.^^


Gassho,
Myosha

this is when we need a Facebook "Like" function.

Gassho
John

[Hotetsu]

Here here!

Gassho

[Daitetsu]

Well, I hate to kick a hornet's nest here, but I would like someone to prove to me, beyond a reasonable doubt, that plants are not 'sentient', because some of mine sure behave like they are!

Well, you could say the same about some cars.

The burden of proof lies on the one making the claim that plants are sentient. (Burden of Proof)
To quote:
An argument from ignorance occurs when either a proposition is assumed to be true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is assumed to be false because it has not yet been proven true.^[1][2] This has the effect of shifting the burden of proof to the person criticizing the assertion, but is not valid reasoning.

IMHO while it is not possible to get rid of suffering completely, one can at least aim for minimisation of suffering.
If someone really needs meat for survival (e.g. because of an illness or a medical condition), then they could try to at least reduce meat consumption to a degree that is not
harmful to them. I think most people don't need to eat meat on an every day basis (but I know several people who eat it every single day!).

However, I think the vast majority of people in our western culture consume meat because they simply like its taste and not because of survival reasons. In their case it boils down to a willingness to let other sentient beings suffer (in a very, very (!) cruel way) and die just for ones own pleasure.
Of course it's up to everyone individually how they cope with that. Most meat eaters I know do this by either not thinking about the whole matter (i.e. ignoring it), or trying to find all kinds of excuses why they still eat meat (and yes, I belonged to that group before I became a vegetarian).

Anyway, I don't want to do priggish finger wagging here - I just know (from own experience, I was like that), that an awful lot of people make it too easy for themselves (and the human imagination is excellent here) when it comes to reducing or giving up their beloved meat. And yes, man, I liked the taste myself.

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[Jishin]

I would like someone to prove to me beyond a reasonable doubt that animals are not sentient.

Gassho, Jishin

[Jika]

Does someone remember Risho asking for a recipes section (with vegetarian recipes) here on Treeleaf, during precepts study?
I'm in on this.
As this topic is raised so often, and people seem really interested to discuss it, it should not be a discussion for the intellect only, but a practical approach for the tenzo...

As soon as my personal circumstances allow, I'd love to try more vegetarian and vegan recipes.

I don't want to turn this into a cooking forum, just a small go-to thread with some favourite recipes of sangha members all over the world.
Like good friends recommend things to each other.

As no sangha member should be excluded, recipes with living plants, with animal products, with meat should all be allowed in my view.
This is not meant to disturb the discussion.
I personally could need some help with the practical approach, like good easy, fool-proof vegan recipes.

Gassho,
Danny

PS: Maybe this is nonsense. Prove to me that I'm sentient.

[Daitetsu]

Hi there,

About the "sentient thing" - as we all know (if one is honest to oneself) this is just another excuse to justify ones own meat consumption (at least for many it is).

Sorry that I have to respond via links today (I've been quite busy in the last weeks):
4 Reasons why the 'Plant Sentience' Argument does not work

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[Shinzan]

Grass-fed, lab grown, hydroponic, lamb or lettuce....... who speaks for the mitochondria, who some scientists consider to be their own organism residing symbiotically in all living cells??
How about our intestinal flora who are dependent on certain nutrients floating by?
Every breath I inhale some living thing. When does that incorporation become killing? Would I kill this body's cells by abstaining?
And further, isn't the whole earth a delicate organism vulnerable to "killing"? Is the earth's sentience (self-knowing) expressed thru all the many living things it contains?

And further, when is speech a form of killing?
Should I first know what is killing?

Hoping not to kill your wondering.
_/\_ Shinzan

[Mp]

Grass-fed, lab grown, hydroponic, lamb or lettuce....... who speaks for the mitochondria, who some scientists consider to be their own organism residing symbiotically in all living cells??
How about our intestinal flora who are dependent on certain nutrients floating by?
Every breath I inhale some living thing. When does that incorporation become killing? Would I kill this body's cells by abstaining?
And further, isn't the whole earth a delicate organism vulnerable to "killing"? Is the earth's sentience (self-knowing) expressed thru all the many living things it contains?

And further, when is speech a form of killing?
Should I first know what is killing?

Hoping not to kill your wondering.
_/\_ Shinzan

Beautiful! =)

Gassho
Shingen

[Stacy]

Hey Danny,

Does someone remember Risho asking for a recipes section (with vegetarian recipes) here on Treeleaf, during precepts study?
I'm in on this.

I don't want to turn this into a cooking forum, just a small go-to thread with some favourite recipes of sangha members all over the world.
Like good friends recommend things to each other.

Yes, I just posted in that thread a little bit ago and really like the idea. Sharing recipes, however we do it, seems like a positive and productive route to me.

As no sangha member should be excluded, recipes with living plants, with animal products, with meat should all be allowed in my view.

I think that would be rather lovely. Then people could share anything they like. On top of that, people could whip up alternate versions. Vegan version of so-and-so's recipe, and so on.

All recipes, all sharing, all helping, all kind to each other in it and the differences of opinion. Sounds wonderful.


Gassho,
Stacy

[Troy]

Interesting article on Bill Gates's website Gatesnotes that explain how our current meat consumption rates will not be sustainable because of our exponential population growth. He also features the company, Beyond Meat, that makes "meat" out of soy beans and peas that looks, tastes and smells like real meat. In blind taste tests most people can not tell the difference.


ImageUploadedByTapatalk1415065042.867931.jpg

Beyond Meat:



http://www.gatesnotes.com/About-Bill...Future-of-Food

[Daitetsu]

Hi Shinzan,

Every breath I inhale some living thing. When does that incorporation become killing? Would I kill this body's cells by abstaining?

You are right, of course, (as I said myself above) it is not possible to completely avoid "killing" or avoid causing harm/suffering of others.
However, we can minimize suffering/killing.

Can I stop breathing in order to not inhale a living thing?
- No, I certainly cannot do this (at least not without killing myself).
Can I stop eating meat in order to spare the life of another living being that has nerve cells, a brain, sensory organs, and some degree of intelligence?
- Yes, I can do this, and quite easily so.

Not being able to avoid doing harm comletely does not mean that we cannot try to minimize it in ways we can.


@Troy:
Thanks for your link!

Gassho,

Daitetsu