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Thread: Call Me Kuchu: For the LGBT Community in Uganda

  1. #1

    Call Me Kuchu: For the LGBT Community in Uganda

    Dear All,

    Kyogen Carlson, the Teacher at the Dharma Rain Zen Center in Portland, Oregon, has asked various Zen groups to post information on this documentary about a terrible situation. They are trying to raise funds. This concerns the tragic situation of LGBT Ugandans who were being violently attacked after the anti-gay law was passed there.

    He writes ...


    [Consultations], much of it with local and Ugandan Evangelicals, has led to several events here in Portland about this problem.

    First, we will be showing the award winning film “Call Me Kuchu” at a theater here in Portland. “Kuchu” is the term Ugandan LGBT folks have chosen for themselves. We have also arranged for a number of people who feature prominently in the film, including Bishop Christopher Senyonjo and LGBT activitsts, to come to Portland to be on a panel to address the audience after the film.

    Next, we are arranging for another showing of the film on the campus of a local conservative Christian University, with the blessing of the administration, and hosted by an institute of the University. The purpose of this event is to bring to awareness within their larger community the involvement of Evangelicals in stirring up this issue. A Ugandan Evangelical will be present to attest to the veracity of the film. This is a huge step.

    Finally, a dialog is planned to bring Christians and non-Christians, right and left, Gay and straight, together to meet about this and related issues. That will be challenging, but from my experience, promises to be rich and fruitful.

    ... We are looking for individuals, institutes, organizations, what-have-you, who would be willing to help fund the expenses involved in bringing the Ugandans to Portland. We are about a third of the way there, which is great on short notice.

    ... We have secured funds to bring Bishop Christopher and John Abdallah Wambere, a Ugandan LGBT activist. We hope to raise enough to bring Bishop’s assistant.
    To make a donation via PayPal for the Bishop Christopher, Call Me Kuchu Film Event, please use the link below.

    https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/websc...=JS83JXMYDLFR6

    Here is information about the film. Maybe some folks would be interested in contacted Kyogen or the producers about arranging a similar event.

    http://callmekuchu.com/

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 06-23-2014 at 03:56 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  2. #2
    Senior Member Myosha's Avatar
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    Metta to all.


    Gassho,
    Myosha
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  3. #3
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
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    Lets donate.

    Thank you for the heads up, Jundo.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Shuso and Ango leader for September 2014.

    Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

  4. #4
    Thanks for sharing this!

    Gassho
    Lisa

  5. #5
    Thank you Jundo ... lets support through donations and metta!

    Gassho
    Shingen
    倫道 真現

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  6. #6
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Thank you Jundo; an important issue that I'm glad to see is getting addressed. I will do what I can.

    Gassho,
    Dosho
    Shudo Dosho - Ordained Priest-in-Training
    With your help and guidance from Jundo & Taigu
    I am learning, but please take what I say with a
    grain of salt, especially in matters of the Dharma.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Clark's Avatar
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    Thank you, very sad situation, but not limited to Uganda. I will help and also sit for all experiencing these types of persecution/ discrimination.

    Recently my family was at Disney World in Florida which happened to be during one weekend which is an "unofficial" LGBT day there. It was all fine until we had to witness planes flying overhead from local Evangelicals in Florida. They carriedd banners "warning" everyone of the cooties they might get by going to Disney on these days.

    Gassho
    C

  8. #8
    Hi Clark,

    Here is a picture of the banner ...



    It seems to have been the product of one group ...

    http://chicago.gopride.com/news/arti...cleid/19458801

    But ya know, not all Christians or evangelical Christians feel so.

    http://www.freep.com/article/2014040...-gay-marriages

    I was pleased to see that now 55% of Americans seem to support Gay Marriage, a reverse from just 10 years ago, with nearly 80% of young adults supporting (a good sign for the future). That is wonderful.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/169640/se...-gay-marriages

    I had an older brother who was in a life of hiding because he was Gay during the 1950's. It caused him years and years of such great suffering and alienation.

    I usually do not speak on political issues and matters of personal values. However, this is a matter of human rights and equality for all.

    Gassho, Jundo
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  9. #9
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    I had an older brother who was in a life of hiding because he was Gay during the 1950's. It caused him years and years of such great suffering and alienation.

    I usually do not speak on political issues and matters of personal values. However, this is a matter of human rights and equality for all.
    I agree Jundo, it is a matter of human rights and why I was so adamant that we have an option for LGBT folks to be accommodated at the retreat without having to ask for special treatment. However, in the end such an automatic option did not happen, although apparently for practical reasons (we still don't know exactly how anyone will be accommodated!). It definitely saddens me though that there is not implicit compassion and understanding for people who differ from "us", but in such insignificant ways compared to how we are alike.

    Gassho,
    Dosho
    Shudo Dosho - Ordained Priest-in-Training
    With your help and guidance from Jundo & Taigu
    I am learning, but please take what I say with a
    grain of salt, especially in matters of the Dharma.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi Clark,

    Here is a picture of the banner ...



    It seems to have been the product of one group ...

    http://chicago.gopride.com/news/arti...cleid/19458801

    But ya know, not all Christians or evangelical Christians feel so.

    http://www.freep.com/article/2014040...-gay-marriages

    I was pleased to see that now 55% of Americans seem to support Gay Marriage, a reverse from just 10 years ago, with nearly 80% of young adults supporting (a good sign for the future). That is wonderful.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/169640/se...-gay-marriages

    I had an older brother who was in a life of hiding because he was Gay during the 1950's. It caused him years and years of such great suffering and alienation.

    I usually do not speak on political issues and matters of personal values. However, this is a matter of human rights and equality for all.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Agreed, I certainly did not mean to imply ALL Christians are anti-gay. My wife for one.

    I do feel the younger generation is embracing diversity in sexuality much more so than mine did. I this regard i think they are way ahead of us old timers. My daughter and her friends are much more accepting than my generation was.

    Gassho
    C

  11. #11
    A wonderful project. So many sad stories that really do not need to be happening. Here in the UK there have been campaigns to stop African LGBT immigrants (often illegal) being deported back to countries where they could face imprisonment or worse.

    Involving the Portland Christian community seems like a great idea. Maybe they can talk to their brothers and sisters in Uganda?

    Gassho
    Andy

  12. #12
    Hello,

    if anyone is interested in reading about the many challenges and the human side of being a member of the LGTB community in Kenya, my dear old friend Kevn Mwachiro just had his first book published recently, called "Invisible":

    http://www.contact-zones-nrb.com/home.php?il=16&l=deu

    Btw. I am aware that Kenya and Uganda are not the same country nor the same culture, but I do guess there are parallels in terms of influences.

    @Dosho: Maybe it might be a good idea to raise your issues regarding the retreat accommodation in another thread and/or to contact the organisers directly, since your exclamation mark suggests a sense of urgency on your part. "However, in the end such an automatic option did not happen, although apparently for practical reasons (we still don't know exactly how anyone will be accommodated!)."

    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen
    Last edited by Hans; 06-24-2014 at 02:17 PM.
    Chudo Mongen, Ordained Novice Priest-in-Training

  13. #13
    This province of Ontario, the largest in Canada, just elected a lesbian Premier. Kathleen Wynne is a grandmother in a solid marriage with another woman. She is an exellent role model for gay people in moving beyond identity politics ....in a place where that is possible. She had inherited the office when the former Premier resigned, and although already elected as the MP for her riding, she had not faced a general election as First Minister. She will have to make some tough financial decisions during her term that might alienate some on the left. Being gay was a non-issue, and the win was a clear majority.

    The idea that being gay is a crime in some places is sad, but not surprising. 30 years ago in this province being gay was reagrded as being broken, and gay people would carry that inside. The progess is amazing and heartening. There seems to be an anti-gay reaction in some parts of the world to the growing acceptance of gay marriage in the West. I don't buy cultural relativism on this one. Like feminism, the opening up of gender roles and gender identities is a global value. It's inevitable ...like a river... like evolution.


    Gassho Daizan
    Last edited by Daizan; 06-24-2014 at 11:23 PM.
    大山

  14. #14
    I don't buy cultural relativism on this one. Like feminism, the opening up of gender roles and gender identities is a global value. It's inevitable ...like a river... like evolution.
    Yes.

    Gassho
    Lisa

  15. #15
    Senior Member Nengyo's Avatar
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    Thank you Jundo

    Try not to be a jerk-- one of the Buddhas

  16. #16
    Senior Member Oheso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daizan View Post

    I don't buy cultural relativism on this one. Like feminism, the opening up of gender roles and gender identities is a global value. It's inevitable ...like a river... like evolution.


    Gassho Daizan
    Agreed about the cultural relativism, however I think it's dangerous and wrong to assume the inevitability of the advancement of recognition of gay rights.

    having seen the sea-change of Public Opinion, I'm all too aware of the fluidity of attitudes. here in new york, we've got a river who's Indian name indicated that it "flows both ways". pun intended

    I'm also wondering what "an option for LGBT folks to be accommodated at the retreat without having to ask for special treatment" means. sounds like a well meaning provision for separate but equal accommodations or something ?? what in the world?

    gassho,

    •O•
    Last edited by Oheso; 06-26-2014 at 05:24 PM.
    only saps buy vowels

  17. #17
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oheso View Post
    I'm also wondering what "an option for LGBT folks to be accommodated at the retreat without having to ask for special treatment" means. sounds like a well meaning provision for separate but equal accommodations or something ?? what in the world?
    I had proposed the idea of a third option for accommodations at the retreat as an alternative to the male and female only areas that are currently offered. It would have been essentially a "genderless" area that would be completely voluntary and not require anyone to disclose information they do not wish to disclose. As uncomfortable as it may make some people, those who are transgender have had to make a choice between female and male room assignments at retreats as long such segregation has existed. Choosing the "genderless" option would not require disclosure of any kind, merely indicating that a person does not want to be separated by gender. I myself am not completely comfortable being housed only with men, so if such an option were available I would choose it even though I am not transgender. However, due to logistics this won't be possible, so anyone who is not comfortable being sorted into male and female areas will not have an "automatic" alternative. Anyone can request special accommodation of course and we will do our best to make it happen, but nothing can be guaranteed. I would think such a request could be accommodated, but it had been my hope that no one would have to have made such a request.

    I hope that answers your question and places the issue somewhere in the world. If not, please let me know.

    Gassho,
    Dosho
    Shudo Dosho - Ordained Priest-in-Training
    With your help and guidance from Jundo & Taigu
    I am learning, but please take what I say with a
    grain of salt, especially in matters of the Dharma.

  18. #18
    Dosho,


    That’s an interesting idea. I wish for and look forward to a day when we don’t sort ourselves into these categories. Just people. Oh, it’s a ways off, still. But things are moving in the right direction I hope. Anyway I appreciate your sensitivity and placing the issue forward.


    (IMHO, people just need to watch a lot more Sci Fi. Battlestar Galactica is somewhat genderless. In the Star Trek universe they gave up money. Come on world, catch up!)


    Gassho
    Lisa
    Last edited by raindrop; 06-26-2014 at 08:09 PM.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Oheso's Avatar
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    thank you Dosho. It does indeed place it. obviously I wasn't aware of the segregation by gender sleeping arrangements.

    gassho, Robert

    only saps buy vowels

  20. #20
    Senior Member Nengyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dosho View Post
    I had proposed the idea of a third option for accommodations at the retreat as an alternative to the male and female only areas that are currently offered. It would have been essentially a "genderless" area that would be completely voluntary and not require anyone to disclose information they do not wish to disclose. As uncomfortable as it may make some people, those who are transgender have had to make a choice between female and male room assignments at retreats as long such segregation has existed. Choosing the "genderless" option would not require disclosure of any kind, merely indicating that a person does not want to be separated by gender. I myself am not completely comfortable being housed only with men, so if such an option were available I would choose it even though I am not transgender. However, due to logistics this won't be possible, so anyone who is not comfortable being sorted into male and female areas will not have an "automatic" alternative. Anyone can request special accommodation of course and we will do our best to make it happen, but nothing can be guaranteed. I would think such a request could be accommodated, but it had been my hope that no one would have to have made such a request.

    I hope that answers your question and places the issue somewhere in the world. If not, please let me know.

    Gassho,
    Dosho
    I don't mind sharing quarters with anyone regardless of gender, sexuality, race, or religion. However, I do think we should have a Canadian free area. I've talked to some Canadians a few times and they are pretty kooky.



    OK back to the serious talk.

    Try not to be a jerk-- one of the Buddhas

  21. #21
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    I agree Jundo, it is a matter of human rights and why I was so adamant that we have an option for LGBT folks to be accommodated at the retreat without having to ask for special treatment. However, in the end such an automatic option did not happen, although apparently for practical reasons (we still don't know exactly how anyone will be accommodated!). It definitely saddens me though that there is not implicit compassion and understanding for people who differ from "us", but in such insignificant ways compared to how we are alike.
    We are doing our best, Dosho. And know that I , because of my own history and life experience, respect and treasure these people more , much more than you can ever imagine.

    Once we can sit quietly together and we can talk peacefully, I shall explain to you why I believe that spliting reality even further than male and female can create more problems.

    For now, I am going to ask Yugen and Dokan to consider an option.

    But please, for now, be at peace and don't assume i am part of a bunch of heart-cold machos.

    Thank you


    Gassho

    T.
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  22. #22
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Taigu,

    I am glad to hear that you have great compassion for people who identify as transgender and look forward to discussing the topic with you in the future.

    I am at peace Taigu (although I'll admit my initial reaction to the option not being offered after I thought it had been agreed to was less than ideal, with apologies to Yugen) and hope you are able to find peace as well.

    And I do not assume you are a "cold-heart macho", but actions speak much louder than words ever could.

    Gassho,
    Dosho
    Shudo Dosho - Ordained Priest-in-Training
    With your help and guidance from Jundo & Taigu
    I am learning, but please take what I say with a
    grain of salt, especially in matters of the Dharma.

  23. #23
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Actions?

    You have no clue who you are talking to...

    But you surely have no respect and that's sad and DELUDED!

    Take great care and chew well

    Gassho

    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  24. #24
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Dosho,

    A few more things...over the last years you have shown disrespect many times, and now, you are now telling everybody that we, and namely Taigu, have a non compassionate attitude to people with a different sexuality.

    Let me get this right:

    As a young writer and artist I had all along many dear gay and lesbian friends who passed away because of this f..... Aids epidemic
    My best friend, Benoit, a French bloke died because of that shit three years ago
    I have chosen as one of my root teachers beyond time and space, Issan Dorsey, the gay drag queen junky who became a Zen abbot
    I decided to give Dharma transmission to Dainin Jocko one of the leading figures of the gay movement in Europe and the ex abbot of the Korean Zen center of Paris
    I vow to reborn ( if such a thing exists) as a lesbian, a gay, or whoever who does not hurt himself or herself or others and and spread the Dharma as i have been doing for nearly 40 years.


    These are my actions, deeds, wishes and my faith!

    That's all I have to say and we will do our best for this coming retreat.

    As to your mail, sorry to see arrogance and ignorance dancing along with such glee.


    Taigu
    Last edited by Taigu; 06-28-2014 at 11:51 AM.
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  25. #25
    Hi Guys,

    I detect folks talking past each other a bit. I don't think Dosho was saying that anyone is in any way closed to people who are Transgender or who embody a sexual preference or identity. Far from it, this Sangha is wide open and accepting of all gentle people or all stripes. (the "gentle people" is the only important part).

    I think the issue is simply one of general sensitivity during Retreats to people with all manner of special needs and situations. This is a bigger issue in the U.S. Buddhist world (and for all manner or churches and other organizations) than in Europe perhaps, which may be one reason people are not on the same wavelength here. When organizing a Retreat, we should do our best, and take reasonable steps (and more) to accommodate people with physical disabilities (including, for example, the visually and hearing impaired), special health conditions (such as epilepsy), peanut and other allergies, some psychological issues (such as panic disorders) and ... well, great understanding is required. Especially if small steps can be taken without great cost, they are best taken. I do not think this Retreat in Washington has anyone coming who has expressed such special needs or situation, but it happens all the time.

    But I also think, Dosho, that maybe you come across as a bit accusatory on the issue here, and there is absolutely no reason to be in this case.

    Anyway, I think the discussion not really on point to this thread which is about a truly terrible situation.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 06-28-2014 at 03:00 PM.
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  26. #26
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Taigu,

    I honestly apologize for my initial post which was not intended as a challenge to you, but in going over it again today it definitely reads that way. For that, I am very sorry. I was trying to point out that a third option for housing may not be possible given the logistics of the space we are using. My post was intended as a public acknowledgement of that fact. But, as I said, it doesn't read that way and I can see why you reacted as you did.

    While not excusing any of my previous mistakes, I would like to clarify the meaning of the term transgendered. While its definition has changed over the years, my understanding of the term is that it does not describe people who are gay or lesbian:

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transgender

    Although gays and lesbians do challenge traditional gender stereotypes, they are not trying to present themselves as a different gender than what was assigned to them at birth. So, in none of my posts on the topic when I used the term transgender was I including anyone who is gay or lesbian.

    I shall think on my numerous errors during our discussions and hopefully bring attention back to the original intent of this thread. I am always at your disposal to discuss this topic to your satisfaction.

    With regrets.

    Gassho,
    Dosho
    Shudo Dosho - Ordained Priest-in-Training
    With your help and guidance from Jundo & Taigu
    I am learning, but please take what I say with a
    grain of salt, especially in matters of the Dharma.

  27. #27
    I support this wholeheartedly. Just yesterday this picture (below) created hefty discussion on Facebook while it just brought tears to my eyes. My dream is of a world where people can be whoever they are, wherever they are.


    Much metta for this project,


    Gassho
    Vincent




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    For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen.

  28. #28
    Treeleaf Unsui Yugen's Avatar
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    We are all one - and when we feel anger or frustration or love we must look to ourselves for the root cause.

    Language and emotion around basic human rights we all clearly are very committed to diverts us from the common ground we share.

    Peace.

    Yugen
    Please take all my comments with a grain of salt - I am a novice priest and anything I say is to be taken with a good dose of skepticism - Shodo Yugen

  29. #29
    Senior Member Troy's Avatar
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    Call Me Kuchu: For the LGBT Community in Uganda

    Let's see what Jesus said about judging and persecuting others:

    Mathew 7:1-2 "Do not judge others or you to will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the same measure you use, it will be measured to you"

    Mark 12:31 "The most important commandment, ...Love God with all your heart...The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

    Mathew 20:28 "the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many" (I am not seeing how persecution and passionately serving others to the point of laying down your life for them means the same thing)

    Mathew 5:9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God”

    Mathew 5:7 "Blessed are the merciful for they will be shown mercy"

    Luke 14:11 "For everyone that exalts himself above others will be humbled and everyones who humbles himself shall be exalted"

    The bible has been interpreted to justify all sorts of atrocities through out history. It is time we (Christians) use it to justify love.

  30. #30
    Hi Troy,

    While I fully agree with you that the main concern of religions and any spiritual practice should be love and compassion, the commandments to love God and to love ones neighbor are senseless IMHO.
    Because love cannot be commanded. Love that is commanded is anything but love - true love is genuine, not forced.

    If the bible says to love God, because otherwise one will burn in hell for all eternity, it actually puts the believer in a dilemma...

    I'd prefer someone saying
    "Daitetsu, I really don't like you, but I accept who you are."

    over someone saying
    "Daitetsu, I love you, because a book/person XY says so."

    Please don't take it personally, I just have always found the commandment of love a bit contradictory (and no, not in a Koan-style way)...
    (And I don't want to say the other Bible quotes are bad or useless - they are good actually.)

    Sorry for getting off-topic, just wanted to add this.

    Gassho,

    Daitetsu


    PS: Just to be clear: I have friends from the LGBT community and would do everything to fight for their acceptance.
    no thing needs to be added

  31. #31
    Senior Member Troy's Avatar
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    Call Me Kuchu: For the LGBT Community in Uganda

    My message here is aimed at my follow Christians out of my personal frustration with Christian theology being used to justify atrocities like the one going on in Uganda. My understanding is the bill in question capitalized on a general belief in Uganda that homosexuality is anti-Christain and harmful for African families. The bill that was originally submitted for vote in the parliament recommended the death penalty for being homosexual. The death penalty?! It has sense been "toned down" to a punishment of up to life in prison. I normally do not discuss Christianity here because I know it is a sensitive subject, but this thread, in my mind, was clearly about Christian fueled persecution of gays.

    I get where you are coming from about the commandment to love God and our neighbors. How can love be forced? I agree it can't be. The greek word used in this verse is entole meaning an injunction, precept or commandment. The word entole comes from the greek word entellomai which can be interpreted as foundation. So the verse could also be read as the foundation of life is to love God and our neighbors. I believe this verse not because it was written in a book but because I have felt it at a spiritual level. It is something I intimately connect with.

    I do not believe in hell, and there is Biblical support for that belief. I must add that I do not take the Bible as literal as many Christians. The Bible contradicts itself over and over and can be interpreted in so many different ways. I believe it is a book written by man, over thousands of years, to express their understanding of God. It is beautiful when understood that way. It is not perfect because we are not perfect. It is a reflection of our humanity. Jesus told us the Spirit of God is sent to guide us not the Bible. I do not say this to devalue the Bible because I believe it does have value within it's context.

    Something I became to believe because of my Buddhist studies is the Christian scriptures are like a finger that points at the moon. Obviously one book can not contain all there is to know about the boundlessness of God. It does not even make logical sense. The moon in the Christian sense being a spiritual connection with God, our fellow humans, and all of creation.

    Perhaps, my beliefs put me on the fringe of both Christianity and Buddhism. I am OK with that. I share this not with the expectation that anyone else will believe as I do, or that I have all the answers, or that I am even right. They are just my understanding. Like the the Bible can not contain the boundlessness of God neither can my understanding.

    Is being gay a sin? I don't know. I don't understand why it should be because I see nothing wrong with it. My understanding of sin is something that separates us from a spiritual and loving connection with God and that is deeply personal.

    I too have family and friends that are homosexual. I love them deeply, especially my brother. I accept all people with open arms. What I hope for is all my brothers and sisters put love first in whatever relationship they are in.

    Deepest bows, Troy
    Last edited by Troy; 07-08-2014 at 06:40 PM.

  32. #32
    Thank you, Troy, for your open words.
    There is really no need to justify your belief (nobody needs to do that) and I did not mean to attack it per se - did not mean to step on your toes.

    I just wanted to share my opinion on that commandment.
    It is obvious for me you have a good heart and only want the best for all.
    I thank you for that - if only more saw their belief in such a (critical) way!

    Gassho,

    Daitetsu
    no thing needs to be added

  33. #33
    Sorry, it's me again, but since I have read your post one thing popped into my mind as you really appear to be "on the fringe of Christianity and Buddhism" as you stated above.

    I think there is a way to somewhat consolidate them (but only for those who don't take things too literal).
    It is when you realize that there is no difference between the Holy Spirit/God/Jesus and yourself, but that you are "him" (as is everyone else). There is no separation, no God vs. Troy - there is just God and nothing else.
    But when you see it like that, there is no need for words like God or Buddha-Nature or Christian or Buddhist - in fact there is no need for any words at all.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Gassho,

    Daitetsu
    no thing needs to be added

  34. #34
    Senior Member Troy's Avatar
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    Hi Daitetsu, that is a beautiful way to think about it. Yes I believe the Buddhist concept of non-self applies to our connection with God, each other and all creation. My understanding is through this connection Jesus taught us how to be the children of God. We only need faith to understand we already are.

    John 14:20
    On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

    My favorite gospel is the Gospel of Thomas. It is not canonical, but it spoke to me in a way others didn't. It focused more on the Kingdom of God being now in our present life through faith. It is in this Gospel the connection between Buddhist and Christian thought can be seen the most. IMHO

  35. #35
    Senior Member Joyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy View Post
    Hi Daitetsu, that is a beautiful way to think about it. Yes I believe the Buddhist concept of non-self applies to our connection with God, each other and all creation. My understanding is through this connection Jesus taught us how to be the children of God. We only need faith to understand we already are.

    John 14:20
    On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

    My favorite gospel is the Gospel of Thomas. It is not canonical, but it spoke to me in a way others didn't. It focused more on the Kingdom of God being now in our present life through faith. It is in this Gospel the connection between Buddhist and Christian thought can be seen the most. IMHO
    Posts like this one help heal my anger towards my childhood religion. Thank you, deep bows

    Gassho,
    Joyo

  36. #36
    Senior Member Tiwala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daitetsu View Post
    Sorry, it's me again, but since I have read your post one thing popped into my mind as you really appear to be "on the fringe of Christianity and Buddhism" as you stated above.

    I think there is a way to somewhat consolidate them (but only for those who don't take things too literal).
    It is when you realize that there is no difference between the Holy Spirit/God/Jesus and yourself, but that you are "him" (as is everyone else). There is no separation, no God vs. Troy - there is just God and nothing else.
    But when you see it like that, there is no need for words like God or Buddha-Nature or Christian or Buddhist - in fact there is no need for any words at all.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Gassho,

    Daitetsu
    Hi,

    I have the book Zen Spirit, Christian Spirit by Fr. Kennedy S.J. who is also a roshi in the White Plumb lineage. I would like to share a relevant passage from there. In the section titled Christ, he says this:

    "'From the outset our nature is pure,' says the Sixth Patriarch, and if we see this nature then we do not abide either inside or outside; we are free to come or go. Readily we cast aside the mind that clings to things, and there is no obstruction to our passage. Does this teaching of the Patriarch correspond with much of our own Christology? If we agree with Augustine that there is only one Christ loving himself, then cannot we also say that for the deluded, Christ is an individual being, and for the awakened, an individual being is Christ. The risen Christ is not another being somewhere else, but rather the risen Christ is the being right in front of me, the same Christ that I am.

    Teilhard de Chardin takes up this same theme in the Divine Milieu:

    'In a real sense, only one man will be saved: Christ, the head and living summary of humanity. Each one of the elect is called to see God face to face. But his act of vision will be vitally inseparable from the elevating and illuminating action of Christ. In heaven, we ourselves shall contemplate God, but, as it were, through the eyes of Christ.'

    ...

    There is practical conclusion that follows from seeing that there is only one Christ. The reader may say, I need not imagine myself kneeling before Christ. I need not pray for salvation, I need not ask for virtue or for anything else as if it were not already given. The spirit of Jesus is fully poured into my heart. With all my limitations, I am Jesus in this world. I have been given all that I need to live out the spirit of Jesus in all the circumstances of my life. Salvation is given here and now. I am not to let any gap open between Jesus and me if I share the experience of St. Paul: 'I live, now not I, but Christ lives in me.'"
    Of course, firstly, I'd like to add that this dichotomy between awakened and deluded need not be perpetuated. There is ultimately no wall separating saint and sinner. And that the very act of sitting as it reveals itself through walking, standing, lying down, and all our daily life, is itself seeing our true nature.
    Last edited by Tiwala; 07-10-2014 at 10:50 AM.
    Gassho
    Ben

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