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Thread: There it is....!

  1. #1

    There it is....!

    Hello everyone,


    I have noticed recently that when sitting there is a sense of sudden excitement after the mind settles - usually around 20mins in


    It fractures and forces a sudden jolt out of any concentrated state that may have arisen....a little like


    "....letting go...letting go........letting go..................letting go..................................'THERE IT IS...!!!'


    Anyone else experience anything similar? Its not good as sitting then becomes really uncomfortable and agitated evoking a wish to stop the session at that point.


    Thanks for your thoughts...

  2. #2
    Hello

    Yes, I often have this experience of the mind settling about 10-20 minutes in but, hey, that is just part of zazen. For a long time I saw my thoughts about zazen and what was happening to be a special case of thoughts but now I just treat them the same as thinking about what is for dinner.

    Agitation is likewise something to be sat with. Sure, sitting is not as pleasant as when uncomfortable sensations are absent but we sit to be present rather than to experience niceness! I am sure you know that, though.

    I don't know how long you have been sitting but you get used to your own rhythm of zazen and the 'THERE IT IS!' voice becomes quieter as the shifts and patterns become more familiar.

    Gassho
    Andy

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    Hello

    Yes, I often have this experience of the mind settling about 10-20 minutes in but, hey, that is just part of zazen. For a long time I saw my thoughts about zazen and what was happening to be a special case of thoughts but now I just treat them the same as thinking about what is for dinner.

    Agitation is likewise something to be sat with. Sure, sitting is not as pleasant as when uncomfortable sensations are absent but we sit to be present rather than to experience niceness! I am sure you know that, though.

    I don't know how long you have been sitting but you get used to your own rhythm of zazen and the 'THERE IT IS!' voice becomes quieter as the shifts and patterns become more familiar.

    Gassho
    Andy
    Exactly what Andy said! Other than agreeing with that I just wanted to say; I feel you. You're not alone in this. Every time stuff like that comes up I use it as a motivation to keep on just sitting.
    ~ Please remember that I am very fallible.

    Gassho
    Aske

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    Hello

    Yes, I often have this experience of the mind settling about 10-20 minutes in but, hey, that is just part of zazen. For a long time I saw my thoughts about zazen and what was happening to be a special case of thoughts but now I just treat them the same as thinking about what is for dinner.

    Agitation is likewise something to be sat with. Sure, sitting is not as pleasant as when uncomfortable sensations are absent but we sit to be present rather than to experience niceness! I am sure you know that, though.

    I don't know how long you have been sitting but you get used to your own rhythm of zazen and the 'THERE IT IS!' voice becomes quieter as the shifts and patterns become more familiar.

    Gassho
    Andy
    What Andy said.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  5. #5

  6. #6
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Dear Andy,

    your name is Kokuu? is' nt it? Space, if I red Shobogenzo well ( you know I can hardly read, do spell badly, mind you I am a true dyslexic boy or just a French guy with a dreadful spelling)

    So tell me, where does it start, where does it end? measured in minutes?

    just questions.

    gassho


    Taigu


    PS: Don't take any notice, not worth it.
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  7. #7
    Dear Taigu

    I believe that kokuu does translate as space and I asked Jundo about that after Jukai. However, the two characters he chose koku 黒 and u 烏 mean black crow.

    At least, that is easier to determine where it starts and ends, from beak to tail. Although, then again, maybe not.

    Gassho
    Andy/Kokuu

  8. #8
    Senior Member Joyo's Avatar
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    As other have said, I have had the same experience, and it always seems to be at that 20 min mark. I'll glance over at the clock, and sure enough, 20 min has gone by. I just continue to sit for the remainder of the 10 min as best I can, and then let it go as best I can.

    Gassho,
    Joyo

  9. #9
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Beautiful name, Kokuu.

    My issue is what space is saying not space itself.

    Gassho


    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  10. #10
    excitement/concentration = not two
    10 minutes/20 minutes/forever = illusion
    all is well

    Gassho
    Lisa

  11. #11
    I don't get a damn thing out of Zazen.

    Gassho, Jishin
    治 Ji (Healing)
    心​ Shin (Heart-Mind)

  12. #12
    Senior Member Amelia's Avatar
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    Customers lined out the door today. One customer... two... two hundred... at first seems a bother... but really, no difference between 3 and 30. I still get to go home at some point.
    迎 Geika

  13. #13
    Senior Member Nengyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joyo View Post
    As other have said, I have had the same experience, and it always seems to be at that 20 min mark. I'll glance over at the clock, and sure enough, 20 min has gone by. I just continue to sit for the remainder of the 10 min as best I can, and then let it go as best I can.

    Gassho,
    Joyo
    Sometimes, when this happens to me, I will just tell myself that one minute of zazen is all of zazen. Helps me get back to the task of zazening, instead of worrying about time.
    Try not to be a jerk-- one of the Buddhas

  14. #14
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    I really like your not a damn thing , Jishin, so intimate with the origin.

    Gassho

    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  15. #15
    My issue is what space is saying not space itself.
    Infinitely vast, space cannot be measured by clock or ruler.
    It holds all things yet nothing resides there.
    As body and mind drop away
    So there is space.
    This morning space speaks with the voice of a cuckoo.
    Then nothing.


    Gassho
    Andy

  16. #16
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Not bad, Andy, not bad at all.
    Just one thing, if I may, the idea of nothing is extra and dropping could be dropped.

    Gassho


    T.
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  17. #17
    @dharmasponge:

    Hi Tony (AFAIR that is your name, but my memory might fail me here, so please correct me if I am wrong),

    I am not a teacher, but I'd recommend you to do yourself a favour and don't analyze your sitting.
    When you bow to your zafu and are about to sit zazen, do it with the attitude that it is the most important thing to do in the world (which it is IMHO).
    Yet at the same time, do it with the attitude that it is the most ordinary and purposeless thing in the world (which it is IMHO).

    When you sit, just sit.

    When you get up from your zafu again, no need to "evaluate" it (e.g. "that was a good session because it was silent" or "that was bad, because my mind was so busy"), because sitting is just sitting (i.e. it is complete in itself).
    And when you leave the room, just be yourself, no need to feel special or different in any other way.

    Funny thing, I have found that this approach is possible with many things in life, not just zazen (probably because whole life is zazen).

    Just my 2 Euro-Cents. ;-)

    Gassho,

    Daitetsu
    no thing needs to be added

  18. #18
    Just one thing, if I may, the idea of nothing is extra and dropping could be dropped.
    Thank you, Taigu. Your pushing is greatly appreciated.

    The last line didn't sit well with me either.

    Gassho
    Andy

  19. #19
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Daitesu, you are a star!
    Kokuu, thank you for this great patience...with yourself ( something on this bl.... path).

    gassho


    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Clark's Avatar
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    I assume what we are discussing here, is not the jolt I get when I realize I have fallen asleep and am going to fall off my zafu.

    I may be wrong but, if Buddha herself suddenly appeared in front of you, I think the best thing to do is keep sitting.

    Gassho
    C

  21. #21
    I may be wrong but, when Buddha herself suddenly appears in you, I think the best thing to do is keep sitting.

    Gassho
    Lisa

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Clark View Post
    ... if Buddha herself suddenly appeared in front of you ... the best thing to do is keep sitting.
    Oh, Homeless Kodo Sawaki Roshi might'a said just that! Here's some more ...

    12. To you who is wondering if your zazen has been good for something

    What's zazen good for? Absolutely nothing! This “good for nothing” has got to sink into your flesh and bones until you're truly practicing what's good for nothing. Until then, your zazen is really good for nothing.

    You say you want to become a better person by doing zazen. Zazen isn't about learning how to be a person. Zazen is to stop being a person.

    Zazen is unsatisfying. Unsatisfying for whom? For the ordinary person. People are never satisfied.

    Isn't it self-evident? How could that which is eternal and infinite ever satisfy human desires?

    Unsatisfying: simply practicing zazen.
    Unsatisfying: realizing zazen with this body.
    Unsatisfying: absorbing zazen into your flesh and blood.

    Being watched by zazen, cursed by zazen, blocked by zazen, dragged around by zazen, every day crying tears of blood – isn't that the happiest form of life you can imagine?

    You say “When I do zazen, I get disturbing thoughts!” Foolish! The fact is that it's only in zazen that you're aware of your disturbing thoughts at all. When you dance around with your disturbing thoughts, you don't notice them at all. When a mosquito bites you during zazen, you notice it right away. But when you're dancing and a flea bites your balls, you don't notice it at all.

    Don't whine. Don't stare into space. Just sit!



    13. To you who says that you have attained a better state of mind through zazen

    As long as you say zazen is a good thing, something isn't quite right. Unstained zazen is absolutely nothing special. It isn't even necessary to be grateful for it.
    Wouldn't it be strange if a baby said to its mother, “Please have understanding for the fact that I'm always shitting in my diapers.”
    Without knowledge, without consciousness, everything is as it should be.
    Don't stain your zazen by saying that you've progressed, feel better or have become more confident through zazen.

    We only say, “Things are going well!” when they're going our way.

    We should simply leave the water of our original nature as it is. But instead we are constantly mucking about with our hands to find out how cold or warm it is. That's why it gets cloudy.

    There's nothing more unpleasant than staining zazen. “Staining” means making a face like a department head, corporate boss or chairperson. Washing away the stains is what's meant by “simplicity” [ shikan ].

    There are bodhisattvas “without magical abilities”. These are bodhisattvas who have even entirely forgotten words like “practice” or “satori”, bodhisattvas without wonderful powers, bodhisattvas who are immeasurable, bodhisattvas who are not interested in their name and fame.

    Zazen isn't like a thermometer where the temperature slowly rises: “Just a little more … yeah … that's it! Now, I've got satori!” Zazen never becomes anything special, no matter how long you practice. If it becomes something special, you must have a screw lose somewhere.

    If we don't watch out, we'll start believing that the buddha-dharma is like climbing up a staircase. But it isn't like this at all. This very step right now is the one practice which includes all practices, and it is all practices, contained in this one practice.

    If you do something good, you can't forget you've done something good. If you've had satori, you get stuck in the awareness of having satori. That's why it's better to keep your hands off good deeds and satori. You've got to be perfectly open and free. Don't rest on your laurels!

    Even if I say all of this about the buddha way, ordinary people will still use the buddha-dharma to try and enhance their value as humans.



    14. To you who do everything you can to get satori

    We don't practice in order to get satori. It's satori that pulls our practice. We practice, being dragged all over by satori.

    You don't seek the way. The way seeks you.

    You study, you do sports, and you're fixated on satori and illusion. So that even zazen becomes a marathon for you, with satori as the finish line. Yet because you're trying to grab it, you're missing it completely.
    Only when you stop meddling like this does your original, cosmic nature realize itself.

    You say you're seeking the way, but what does it mean if you're seeking the way just to satisfy yourself?

    You want to become a buddha? There's no need to become a buddha! Now is simply now. You are simply you. And tell me, since you want to leave the place where you are,where is it exactly you want to go?

    Zazen means just sitting without even thinking of becoming buddha.

    We don't achieve satori through practice: practice is satori. Each and every step is the goal.
    BUT ... don't assume therefor there be nothing to attain ...

    32. To you who say that your body, just as it is, is already Buddha

    ...

    When you, inseparable from Buddha, put Buddha's activity into practice – only then are you a buddha. And when you act like a fool, then you're a fool.

    It's only in your approach to life that Buddha appears.

    A person who puts a buddha's actions into practice is called a buddha.

    ...
    http://terebess.hu/english/sawaki-to-you.html

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 06-20-2014 at 12:55 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  23. #23

  24. #24
    Senior Member Clark's Avatar
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    Hello

    when I read stuff like what Kodo Sawaki Roshi's has to say, it gives me a headache.
    I will be chewing on all that for awhile to come.

    Gassho
    C

  25. #25
    Senior Member Myosha's Avatar
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    "You don't seek the way. The way seeks you."

    Yes way!!


    ​Gassho,
    Myosha
    Practice with humility, respect all beings, avoid attachments, give rise to prajña from your own awareness, put an end to delusions - Hui-neng

  26. #26
    For real? No way!

    Gassho, Jishin
    治 Ji (Healing)
    心​ Shin (Heart-Mind)

  27. #27
    Member Nandi's Avatar
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  28. #28
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    HA! That's some good stuff on the link, Jundo. It's sort of like a verbal smack in the face that doesn't sting at all, because I was laughing too hard while I read through it. Thank you very much for that, I'll just go sit.

    Gassho,
    Morgan

  29. #29
    Speaking of Sawaki

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Zen-Teachi...ds=kodo+sawaki

    Probably this has been noted already, but I've been away for a bit!
    Gassho,
    Kaishin

  30. #30

    There it is....!

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    Not bad, Andy, not bad at all.
    Just one thing, if I may, the idea of nothing is extra and dropping could be dropped.

    Gassho


    T.
    Thank you, Taigu
    Gassho

    Vincent

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen.

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