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Thread: Uhhh...

  1. #1
    Senior Member Troy's Avatar
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    Uhhh...

    After I discover a nugget of wisdom and am feeling pretty good about myself, I am eventually humbled by what I don't know. I realize my understanding is like a grain of sand on the shore of wisdom. It leaves me feeling a little dazed. My response? Uhhh... with a dopey look on my face, lol. What a relief it is not to have to live up to the image of having exceptional wisdom.
    Last edited by Troy; 03-27-2014 at 05:32 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Juki's Avatar
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    Wisdom is being comfortable with not knowing.

    Gassho,
    Juki
    "First you have to give up." Tyler Durden

  3. #3
    Senior Member Troy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juki View Post
    Wisdom is being comfortable with not knowing.

    Gassho,
    Juki
    Yes! Nicely put

  4. #4
    Wisdom is knowing there is nothing to know.

    Uuuuh?
    YES! Uuuhhhhh!

    Gaasho

    Myoho

  5. #5
    Senior Member Juki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyoHo View Post
    Wisdom is knowing there is nothing to know.

    Uuuuh?
    YES! Uuuhhhhh!

    Gaasho

    Myoho
    How can one "know" that there is nothing to know?
    "First you have to give up." Tyler Durden

  6. #6
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juki View Post
    How can one "know" that there is nothing to know?
    (Universe explodes into a fiery ball...then nothingness.)

    Fin.
    Shudo Dosho - Ordained Priest-in-Training
    With your help and guidance from Jundo & Taigu
    I am learning, but please take what I say with a
    grain of salt, especially in matters of the Dharma.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Juki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dosho View Post
    (Universe explodes into a fiery ball...then nothingness.)

    Fin.
    Thanks, Dosho. I'm liking this thread more with every response.



    Gassho,
    Juki
    "First you have to give up." Tyler Durden

  8. #8
    This is interesting; there can never be nothingness.

  9. #9
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
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    Nothing comes to mind whenever I think about all there is to learn.

    Then I realize I am nothing morphing into nothingness.

    Wise? Not me. Dumb like hell? That's me.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

  10. #10
    Is this thread a kind of contest who thinks most of themselves to be dumbest?

    Anyway some food for thought:
    There is a difference between nothing and no thing.

    Gassho,

    Daitetsu
    Last edited by Daitetsu; 03-28-2014 at 02:20 AM.
    no thing needs to be added

  11. #11
    I got lost long ago ...
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  12. #12
    Not knowing/emptiness is only half the story. When one truly does not know, then reality can be seen with a clear eye. The grass is green and the sky is blue. Just like this. :-)

    Gassho, Jishin

  13. #13
    This is a section of our guest this week, Daiho Hilbert's, book which I so much recommend to everyone. Daiho often dances with Seung Sahn's "Only Don't Know". Here, Daiho speaks my heart on knowing "Don't Know" ...

    --------------------

    When I was a practicing psychotherapist, one of my main focuses in treatment was helping people formulate principles for living. Most of my clients were survivors of catastrophic trauma: war, assault, disasters both man-made and natural. For these people, their common experience of living was shattered and thrown into question. The world was no longer safe, predictable, or fair. Trauma taught them that it really never was, that we live in a bubble of illusion so to speak until something happens to pop that bubble, and then all our experience and know-how is of questionable value.

    How do we live when our world appears so irrational and capricious? What are our organizing principles?

    Today, as a priest, my effort is much the same, though it addresses the spiritual side of my life, as if my actual lives can be so apportioned. A spiritual life is a principled life. And the organizing principle is "don't know."

    There is something very powerful and completely freeing about letting our ideas go. Life is so much fresher, more vivid and certainly more dynamic. When we approach a daily situation as if we already know what it is, we are responding to what we "know" rather than what is actually there.

    To approach life with a "Don't Know" mind is inherently respectful. I do not have to know what is what. I can begin to appreciate something as it presents itself and as I do this, I am offering it true respect. Such an approach requires us to listen deeply. Listening in this sense is poly-sensational. We use each and every sense organ as we witness life. Sound, taste, touch, smell, and thought all flow directly to us without passing go. No filtering. No thinking. Just thought. Just smell. Just touch. Just sound. Just taste. Each is a teacher; each an awakening.

    It is important to touch our core values. Values such as awareness, nurturance, compassion, peace, love; these become our organizing principles. These are organized around our knowledge that the universe is not two, but one. So, as we become aware, so does our universe. As we become compassion, compassion is brought into our universe. And so on.

    In each case, and as we approach each life situation, we should make clear choices: we behave for the sake of other beings. Our lives are in-service to others, not to ourselves, because in truth, you and I are one, mutually dependent on each other for our existence and the continued existence of our planet.

    Such a life requires us to be vulnerable. We must drop our defences. We must be willing to be hurt. And while it may appear that this is difficult, in truth, our defences don't amount to much in the first place. They really don't serve us. They actually harm us. They create little bomb shelters for us to live in, if that is what we want to call living in a shell.

    I have spent much of my life in such a shell. Its not a happy place,. And I look forward each morning to stepping out into the light of day, inhaling the air and opening myself to the dawn. What can you teach me today?

    Living Zen: The Diary of an American Zen Priest
    by Rev. Harvey Daiho Hilbert

    http://www.amazon.com/Living-Zen-Dia...=daiho+hilbert
    Last edited by Jundo; 03-28-2014 at 05:35 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    There is something very powerful and completely freeing about letting our ideas go. Life is so much fresher, more vivid and certainly more dynamic. When we approach a daily situation as if we already know what it is, we are responding to what we "know" rather than what is actually there.
    This is a marvelous point Jundo, thank you. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen
    真 眼

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Troy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    This is a section of our guest this week, Daiho Hilbert's, book which I so much recommend to everyone. Daiho often dances with Seung Sahn's "Only Don't Know". Here, Daiho speaks my heart on knowing "Don't Know" ...

    --------------------

    When I was a practicing psychotherapist, one of my main focuses in treatment was helping people formulate principles for living. Most of my clients were survivors of catastrophic trauma: war, assault, disasters both man-made and natural. For these people, their common experience of living was shattered and thrown into question. The world was no longer safe, predictable, or fair. Trauma taught them that it really never was, that we live in a bubble of illusion so to speak until something happens to pop that bubble, and then all our experience and know-how is of questionable value.

    How do we live when our world appears so irrational and capricious? What are our organizing principles?

    Today, as a priest, my effort is much the same, though it addresses the spiritual side of my life, as if my actual lives can be so apportioned. A spiritual life is a principled life. And the organizing principle is "don't know."

    There is something very powerful and completely freeing about letting our ideas go. Life is so much fresher, more vivid and certainly more dynamic. When we approach a daily situation as if we already know what it is, we are responding to what we "know" rather than what is actually there.

    To approach life with a "Don't Know" mind is inherently respectful. I do not have to know what is what. I can begin to appreciate something as it presents itself and as I do this, I am offering it true respect. Such an approach requires us to listen deeply. Listening in this sense is poly-sensational. We use each and every sense organ as we witness life. Sound, taste, touch, smell, and thought all flow directly to us without passing go. No filtering. No thinking. Just thought. Just smell. Just touch. Just sound. Just taste. Each is a teacher; each an awakening.

    It is important to touch our core values. Values such as awareness, nurturance, compassion, peace, love; these become our organizing principles. These are organized around our knowledge that the universe is not two, but one. So, as we become aware, so does our universe. As we become compassion, compassion is brought into our universe. And so on.

    In each case, and as we approach each life situation, we should make clear choices: we behave for the sake of other beings. Our lives are in-service to others, not to ourselves, because in truth, you and I are one, mutually dependent on each other for our existence and the continued existence of our planet.

    Such a life requires us to be vulnerable. We must drop our defences. We must be willing to be hurt. And while it may appear that this is difficult, in truth, our defences don't amount to much in the first place. They really don't serve us. They actually harm us. They create little bomb shelters for us to live in, if that is what we want to call living in a shell.

    I have spent much of my life in such a shell. Its not a happy place,. And I look forward each morning to stepping out into the light of day, inhaling the air and opening myself to the dawn. What can you teach me today?

    Living Zen: The Diary of an American Zen Priest
    by Rev. Harvey Daiho Hilbert

    http://www.amazon.com/Living-Zen-Dia...=daiho+hilbert
    Wow, that was beautiful. Thank you Jundo 😀

  16. #16
    Thank you for posting this. I love "don't know" mind. It is like being on a continuous first date with life.

    -Anzan

  17. #17
    Senior Member Joyo's Avatar
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    The more I practice Zen, the more I realize there is nothing to know, dropping all, including preconceived ideas and expectations of all things. I am the type of person that puts a huge, huge amount of pressure on myself, and this practice continues to help me to just drop everything.

    Gassho,
    Joyo

  18. #18
    Senior Member Joyo's Avatar
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    You know, after giving this a bit more thought, I have a few more things to say. I was raised very strict Christian and continued on that path for 35 years. Slowly, I started to break away and then made a very quick change and quit going to church, reading my bible, and all the other things that I was taught I had to do in order to be a good Christian. This left me with a very uneasy feeling. I started researching more and more on the history of the bible etc. and I became obsessed with finding the perfect doctrine, the perfect explanation as to what the bible really meant. This eventually turned me into an atheist, not at all where I thought I would end up lol!! Even as an atheist, I still felt uneasy, always searching, questioning and trying to find answers. In the middle of this I found Buddhism, and then I found Treeleaf, and to make a long story short, I eventually just dropped all that. Too much thinking was going on in my head!!! Instead of spending countless hrs searching on wikipedia, I now sit, chant and just live a simple life as best as I can, dropping all ideas of proper doctrines and ideas. And when people ask me if I believe in this or that, I just say I don't know.

    Gassho,
    Joyo

  19. #19
    when people ask me if I believe in this or that, I just say I don't know
    That must feel really freeing, Joyo.

    Gassho
    Andy

  20. #20
    Senior Member Troy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joyo View Post
    You know, after giving this a bit more thought, I have a few more things to say. I was raised very strict Christian and continued on that path for 35 years. Slowly, I started to break away and then made a very quick change and quit going to church, reading my bible, and all the other things that I was taught I had to do in order to be a good Christian. This left me with a very uneasy feeling. I started researching more and more on the history of the bible etc. and I became obsessed with finding the perfect doctrine, the perfect explanation as to what the bible really meant. This eventually turned me into an atheist, not at all where I thought I would end up lol!! Even as an atheist, I still felt uneasy, always searching, questioning and trying to find answers. In the middle of this I found Buddhism, and then I found Treeleaf, and to make a long story short, I eventually just dropped all that. Too much thinking was going on in my head!!! Instead of spending countless hrs searching on wikipedia, I now sit, chant and just live a simple life as best as I can, dropping all ideas of proper doctrines and ideas. And when people ask me if I believe in this or that, I just say I don't know.

    Gassho,
    Joyo
    Great teaching Joyo I think we are twins sometimes, lol. We have been in some similar places during our walk.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Joyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy View Post
    Great teaching Joyo I think we are twins sometimes, lol. We have been in some similar places during our walk.
    That's great Troy, always encouraging to find others that have walked a similar path in life.

    And Kokuu, yes it is very freeing, but to give a bit more background--I was raised Mennonite and still live in the place where I grew up. So, my family is here, as well as many, many people that I used to attend church with. Even at work, the other day, many of the staff remembered me from my Christian days and it's awkwaard to hear comments like "oh, haven't seen you in awhile, don't you go to church anymore?". It can be a difficult town to live in because I'm labelled as the "backslidden" one, but again, I just try to drop that and take comfort in the path of Zen, the empty, I don't know path. And life is just too short to take seriously

    Gassho,
    Joyo

  22. #22
    Senior Member Myosha's Avatar
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    Hello,

    "oh, haven't seen you in awhile, don't you go to church anymore?".

    I'm never not in 'church'.


    Gassho,
    Myosha
    Practice with humility, respect all beings, avoid attachments, give rise to prajña from your own awareness, put an end to delusions - Hui-neng

  23. #23
    Senior Member Joyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myosha View Post
    Hello,

    "oh, haven't seen you in awhile, don't you go to church anymore?".

    I'm never not in 'church'.


    Gassho,
    Myosha
    Or this, I never was in church

    Gassho,
    Joyo

    p.s.--I'm a bit of a pantheist, the whole earch is my church

  24. #24
    Senior Member Nameless's Avatar
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    What a great thread! Thank you Troy. Each time I start to get too big for my britches (as the saying goes) something (nothing? Haha) always happens that shows me that I don't know anything lol. It's refreshing being humbled. As an intellect addict, it's always amazing watching the tower of thought collapse, while also knowing that there was also nothing to collapse. I followed a similar route to Buddhism and Treeleaf Joyo, now I just don't concern myself with that which has no definite answer, and that which cannot be observed. Still entertain subjective, experience based views, but they're nothing more than conjecture.

    The fun thing with Zen is that we can never understand it with our brains. Can never adequately describe the Dharma with words. On that note, in the Kiriwina (a language of New Guinea) the word mokita means a truth that everyone knows, but no one speaks about. That's the fun fact of the day. Haha.

    Gassho, Foolish John

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    Not knowing/emptiness is only half the story. When one truly does not know, then reality can be seen with a clear eye. The grass is green and the sky is blue. Just like this. :-)

    Gassho, Jishin
    Thank you Jundo.

    Gassho,

    Simon

  26. #26
    Senior Member Troy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless View Post
    What a great thread! Thank you Troy. Each time I start to get too big for my britches (as the saying goes) something (nothing? Haha) always happens that shows me that I don't know anything lol. It's refreshing being humbled. As an intellect addict, it's always amazing watching the tower of thought collapse, while also knowing that there was also nothing to collapse. I followed a similar route to Buddhism and Treeleaf Joyo, now I just don't concern myself with that which has no definite answer, and that which cannot be observed. Still entertain subjective, experience based views, but they're nothing more than conjecture.

    The fun thing with Zen is that we can never understand it with our brains. Can never adequately describe the Dharma with words. On that note, in the Kiriwina (a language of New Guinea) the word mokita means a truth that everyone knows, but no one speaks about. That's the fun fact of the day. Haha.

    Gassho, Foolish John
    Great lesson! Thanks John

  27. #27
    Senior Member Troy's Avatar
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    So many great comments! Than you everyone for enriching my life

  28. #28
    Hi Joyo,

    Lots of parallels here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Joyo View Post
    Even as an atheist, I still felt uneasy, always searching, questioning and trying to find answers. In the middle of this I found Buddhism, and then I found Treeleaf, and to make a long story short, I eventually just dropped all that.
    Yes! For me it is like those questions are gone - not because I know the answers, but because questions somehow disappeared in a strange way. And this is quite liberating indeed!

    Gassho,

    Daitetsu
    no thing needs to be added

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