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Thread: "Shouting down the truth"

  1. #1

    "Shouting down the truth"

    I read a line in one of Brad Warner's books about how we DELIBERATELY "shout down the truth", basically avoiding it. The truth is right here but we avoid it and suffer.Also read eckhart tolle mention something along similar lines "kicking and screaming into heaven". Very interesting considering you would think that the truth is the last thing we would shout down. But I'd like to hear people's thoughts and interpretation of this.

    Gassho,
    Misha

  2. #2
    Hi Misha

    I don't know about truth but a lot of human behaviour (including my own) seems to be about avoiding experiencing things that make us feel uncomfortable - loss, pain, embarrassment, being wrong, even boredom.

    If we were good at being with what is, Zazen wouldn't be necessary.

    Gassho
    Kokuu

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    If we were good at being with what is, Zazen wouldn't be necessary.
    Ha! good point.

    Gassho,

    Risho

  4. #4
    Maybe he's referring to the tendency to be continually caught up in our dreaming and commentary about life instead of tasting, touching, smelling and feeling the truth of our life right now.



    Kind regards. /\
    _/_
    Rich

  5. #5
    Senior Member Juki's Avatar
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    I have a hard time with the word "truth" as it is used by most people. I tend to feel it is subjective for the most part, which means that there is no such thing as truth. There are facts. Facts are quantifiable, verifiable and observable. Facts are our real world experiences day to day. Anything that is not quantifiable, verifiable or observable is, by definition, a non fact.

    The"truth," as most people use that word, is generally nothing more than somebody's point of view as applied to a given set of facts (or, more often, non facts - which results in much of our bickering).

    There are mountains and rivers and trees and rocks. There are sentient beings galore. Those are facts. Where did it all come from and what does it mean? Those are topics for speculation and arguments about what is and is not the "truth."

    this was probably not very Zen of me and I may catch some flak for it, so apologies to anyone I offended.

    Gassho,
    Juki
    "First you have to give up." Tyler Durden

  6. #6
    Rich and kokuu,What I'm getting from it is that heaven is actually in front of our faces and our bitching and moaning is basically a way to avoid heaven.. I'm wondering why as humans we would deliberately avoid that.
    Gassho
    Misha
    Last edited by WokiTheCat; 01-22-2014 at 07:19 PM. Reason: Edit

  7. #7
    Senior Member Juki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WokiTheCat View Post
    What I'm getting from it is that heaven is actually in front of our faces and our bitching and moaning is basically a way to avoid heaven
    Yes, I believe that's what I was getting at, too. I believe that's also what Kokku and Rich are getting at.


    As for "why," I would guess that the problem is one of expectation versus reality. People don't want to accept that this is heaven, they expect more, they want what was promised, what was advertised.

    Gassho,
    Juki
    Last edited by Juki; 01-22-2014 at 07:45 PM.
    "First you have to give up." Tyler Durden

  8. #8
    Misha

    Reality differs from our expectation and ideas of it. Often it is more comfortable to live with an idea of how things are rather than the real, shifting and unpredictable nature of reality.

    But, yes, direct experience is there all along, and we can choose to engage with it or not. My last teacher was fond of quoting H L Mencken:

    “Penetrating so many secrets, we cease to believe in the unknowable. But there it sits nevertheless, calmly licking its chops”


    Gassho
    Andy

  9. #9
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juki View Post
    The"truth," as most people use that word, is generally nothing more than somebody's point of view as applied to a given set of facts (or, more often, non facts - which results in much of our bickering).
    I totally agree. There is just one reality, where physics and chemistry and mathematics and biology collide.

    Then there's opinions, which are abstractions of reality that depend on people's own experiences.

    Thing is, to get to see reality as it is takes a lifetime of practice...

    But then again I might be wrong :P

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

  10. #10
    Senior Member Tiwala's Avatar
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    I agree with Kokuu/Andy. I kind of see suffering as two cliffs with a large pit in between. The cliff of, what I want, what I wish, what I long for with all my heart, and the cliff of what really is, what's under my feet. The practice of zen is to cross over these cliffs, over and over again.

    Sometimes, I find the process difficult because I have such high expectations of life in general. Sometimes I'd rather live in hell than in heaven, because sometimes accepting heaven hurts what I think heaven should be. This is why sometimes, one kicks and screams on the way to heaven, I think.

    Gassho, Ben
    Gassho
    Ben

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by WokiTheCat View Post
    Rich and kokuu,What I'm getting from it is that heaven is actually in front of our faces and our bitching and moaning is basically a way to avoid heaven.. I'm wondering why as humans we would deliberately avoid that.
    Gassho
    Misha
    In my case I attribute it to one or many lifetimes of bad habits aka bad karma. Buddha or someone after him said Delusions are endless, we vow to cut thru them all, so its a continuous practice.

    Andy quoted Mencken "“Penetrating so many secrets, we cease to believe in the unknowable. But there it sits nevertheless, calmly licking its chops”" Not knowing is like a vacuum, our ego wants to fill it up.
    _/_
    Rich

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    ... avoiding experiencing things that make us feel uncomfortable - loss, pain, embarrassment, being wrong, even boredom.
    I agree there Kokuu that seems to be the common path. For me Zen has taught me that path at times can produce the answer to the suffering we maybe facing - accepting and just sitting with what it is. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen
    真 眼

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  13. #13
    Hello and thank you everyone,

    Quote Originally Posted by Shingen View Post
    For me Zen has taught me that path at times can produce the answer to the suffering we maybe facing - accepting and just sitting with what it is. =)
    Yep, .... but I dont want Acceptance is the major obstacle for me. I always thought I was "great" in accepting what is; however, that resistance is subtle, tricky and deep.
    _()_
    Myoku

  14. #14
    Donno what this truth is really? The idea of heaven is also something that eludes me. Sometimes, while sitting, we can get a whiff of the peace with a big P while sitting shikantaza. But as soon as we try to grasp it or grab hold of it we are in trouble again. What is truth? I my opinion it is something you feel and know but can't express. Heaven, what do we mean by that really? The roam of the Diva's?

    Saying this here is heaven, does not sit well with me. Living out the life of the self, yes. Nothing more nothing less. Transcending through practice and learn to not just live life but live it well, sure! But practice never ends and heaven is never reached. As soon as we think we do, we find out it's not heaven but just another illusion. As long as we think of "a heaven", we hold on to the idea that where we are now is not so good and one day it should all get better. Now I'm unhappy but when I'm rich..... Now I'm unhappy because of my big nose but after the operation...... It's the dog chasing its tail again only with fancy words. Aiming to reach a point of constant bliss sounds...exhausting and to me is besides the point! What is truth? YES! WHAT is Truth!!!!! What is heaven? YES! WHAT is heaven!!



    Gassho

    MyoHo

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