Is Zen Buddhism?

[dharmasponge]

Hi, first of all thanks for all the replies re The Mechanics of Enlightenment. I have to say though in true Zen fashion, I am no wiser

In terms of the subject of this thread - Zen is described as 'Buddhism outside the scriptures'. How does this work? Are Dogens teachings taken as an interpretation of the historical Buddhas teachings or are they considered inspired by but separate from them?

Buddhism or Dogenism?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Tony...


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[Jundo]

Hi Tony,

Zen, and Dogen's Zen, are "Buddhism" because they are expressing four classic views (known in Buddhism as the "Four Seals"), which may be worded as:

1 - All Compounded Things are Impermanent

2 - All harmful emotions (driven by excess desire, anger, divisive thoughts in ignorance) lead to Dukkha/suffering.

3 - All Phenomena are Empty; They Are Without Inherent Existence

4 - Nirvana is Peace.

Basically, most all Buddhists I know, of all flavors, agree on these views (although we differ on how to express these, and how to realize such Truths too). More on the "Four Seals" here:

http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbu.../fourseals.htm

Zen and Dogen's Teachings are also all based on fundamental Buddhist and Mahayana Buddhist Teachings of Emptiness, Sila (the Precepts), Wisdom, Compassion and more.

Zen and Dogen's Zen, like many other flavors of Buddhism and the Mahayana, teaches Liberation possible in this life, immediately realizable (although that is a loaded term) and inherent Buddhahood (although that does not mean there is nothing for us to do to realize that fact). Modern folks (such as me and many others) can be rather agnostic on overly mechanical views of post-mortem rebirth (Dogen seemed to believe in it), but we find the question rather unimportant to the central points of the Practice.

If Dogen was anything, he was simply a poetic genius in riffing on these fundamental principles. His writings like Shobogenzo are really his jazzy version of these standard Buddhist tunes.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...-to-Read-Dogen

I have heard some folks from time to time say that "Zen is not Buddhism", but have usually found such ill informed statements made by non-Zen folks who were trying to make a slight of some kind.

As to Zen being "a special transmission outside the scriptures, not dependent on words and letters" ... that does not mean that Zen is "outside the scriptures" ...

Even the Zen Masters of the past who were "beyond words and letters" usually were so once they had already become quite familiar with the "words and letters" (although some radicals did burn the books even before reading them). Bodhidharma said it, then taught the Lankavatara Sutra. The Sixth Patriarch said it, then lectured on the Diamond Sutra. For most of the old Teachers, saying that we are a "special transmission outside the scriptures, not bound by words and letters" meant that we sometimes burn our sutra books, and do completely without the "words". Other times, we do not "read" the scriptures and philosophize about them in our armchairs, so much as try to "see through them" to their meaning as revealed by the insights of Zazen. Most vitally, we must realize them and bring each word and letter to life. We must not be imprisoned by the words, but enlivened and enlightened by them ... and them us, in a dance. As well, sometimes we pick up our books and discuss them and chew them over, other times we put our books down and feel the simple breeze blowing across one's cheek.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jishin]

What is not Zen? :sly:

Gassho, John

[Jundo]

What is not Zen? :sly:

Gassho, John

The whole universe, all time and space and then some ... all Zen.

But not everything is Zen. (A Koan)

Gassho, J

[Jishin]

But not everything is Zen. :sly:

Gassho, John

[Nengyo]

Hey you got your zen in my buddhism.
You got your buddhism on my zen.
What?
DELICIOUS!!!

Sorry, my brain was corrupted by candy commercials at a young age!

[Kyotai]

Good question, something I have wondered myself.

Gassho

Shawn

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[Kokuu]

Hi Tony

Good question!

The Mechanics of Enlightenment thread is a good example of why Zen is considered 'transmission outside of the scriptures' - we can talk all we like but unless you experience it yourself, you are none the wiser. As the old saying goes, we can but point at the moon. You must see for yourself.

The phrase Buddhism, to me, could be understood in two ways. The first is the teachings of the Buddha (i.e. Shakyamuni, the historical Buddha) or else the teachings on how to be buddha - awake. In the second instance it would seem unwise to eschew teachings of later practitioners who shed light on how to achieve awakening. Later teachers build on the buddha's work, and it would be a bad testimony to the teachings if they were to produce no one worthy of doing that!

As Jundo says, the four seals are one of the defining characteristics of what makes Buddhism Buddhism. It is hard to read much of Zen or Dogen without seeing how much they pervade the teachings.

Gassho
Andy

[Daitetsu]

Zen? Buddhism? Who cares!
Just words, concepts. Just fingers pointing at the moon! Yet it is the moon that is looking at itself all the time.
So wherever you point, there it is. Go into your bathroom and point at the mirror. There you are. There it is.
No need for pointing. Just be.

Gassho,

Timo

[dharmasponge]

Hi Tony

As Jundo says, the four seals are one of the defining characteristics of what makes Buddhism Buddhism. It is hard to read much of Zen or Dogen without seeing how much they pervade the teachings.

Gassho
Andy

Thanks Andy...


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[dharmasponge]

Hi Tony,

We must not be imprisoned by the words, but enlivened and enlightened by them ... and them us, in a dance. As well, sometimes we pick up our books and discuss them and chew them over, other times we put our books down and feel the simple breeze blowing across one's cheek.

Gassho, Jundo

Nice...thanks Jundo _/|\_


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[Jundo]

Zen? Buddhism? Who cares!
Just words, concepts. Just fingers pointing at the moon! Yet it is the moon that is looking at itself all the time.
So wherever you point, there it is. Go into your bathroom and point at the mirror. There you are. There it is.
No need for pointing. Just be.

Gassho,

Timo

Well, this is so ... but neither is Zen just a formless blob, chaotic, do or say whatever ya feel, directionless, amoral. There are certain foundational Teachings and Perspectives (including non-perspective perspectives and viewless views) that are common to Mahayana Buddhism and give Zen it's Zenness. In fact, the most original aspect of Zen is its method to approach these basic Teachings of Buddhism and Mahayana Buddhism.

No need for pointing. Just be.

One can "just be" ... as in "just be ignorant" or "just be lost". One can also "just be" beyond and right through "to be or to not be" (a viewless view borrowed from other Mahayana schools such as the Huayen Flower Garland Teachings, by the way).

Gassho, J

[Daitetsu]

Hi Jundo,

Thank you!
You are right, that's why a singular "enlightenment event" by itself can be quite useless IMHO - it is the reason we need teachers and teachings.
To not go astray or get on the wrong path.

Thank you and Gassho,

Timo

[Rich]

If you want to understand Buddhism you have to practice it. That's why Zen is true Buddhism. Zen brought everyone back to the sitting instead of just studying the ism.



Kind regards. /\

[Jundo]

If you want to understand Buddhism you have to practice it. That's why Zen is true Buddhism. Zen brought everyone back to the sitting instead of just studying the ism.



Kind regards. /\

[Tiwala]

The sanbokyodan group here doesn't consider Zen to be Buddhism. And neither does Fr Kennedy roshi. The sanbokyodan group was started by a Catholic nun and some of the teachers are part of the Catholic religious. I guess this is the only way they can still consider themselves 100% Catholic despite practicing Zen. Good old Filipino mestizaje

Gassho, Ben

[Jundo]

Hi Ben,

Well, one can Practice Zen combined with Christianity, and that is no problem (as I often say, one can practice Zen combined with many things **)

And Fr, Kennedy and others face pressures from the Catholic Church to de-emphasize the Buddhist aspect (being Catholic nuns and priests subject to excommunication and such). One can find a lot of common ground, and room for Buddha and God (what are names, after all)?

But I am sure that if one looks closely at Fr. Kennedy's Teachings (I have), one finds that the typical Zen and Buddhist Perspectives are there, even if in another guise or expressed a certain way to find the common ground or de-emphasize the "Buddha".

Gassho, J

** I often say that one can Practice Zen Buddhism while also a Republican, Democrat or apolitical, Catholic, Jewish or Muslim, Atheist or Agnostic. I would say that, so long as it is a belief system that avoids hate, violence, excess greed and such (e.g., a "Zen Buddhist Nazi" will go a dark way ), all can mix. I sometimes write ...

If there is a "God" ... whether in the Judeo-Christian way or some other, whether named "Allah" "Jehovah" "Thor" "Brahma" or "Stanley" ... I will fetch water and chop wood, seeking to live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way).

If there is no "God" "Allah" or "Stanley", or any source or creator or point to the universe at all, I will fetch water and chop wood, seeking to live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way).

Whatever the case ... today, now ... live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way) ...

[Tiwala]

Indeed. What are names after all?



Gassho, Ben