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Thread: SPLIT THREAD: Zen & Catholicism

  1. #51
    Thank you, Enkyo, for quoting my Dharma Brother (fellow student of Nishijima Roshi) Gustav Ericcson, who is a Zen Teacher and a Lutheran priest with the Church of Sweden ...



    Now, someone wrote with an interesting question: Why would I write that, in my opinion, "energy vibrations" and such are hooey that I will not teach at Treeleaf, but not call some of the doctrines of the Catholic Church "hooey" and "poppy-cock". Well, the fact of the matter is that I do think that many of the claims of Judaism, Christianity ... and Buddhism ... are "hooey" and unbelievable if taken literally. Walking on water (Buddhist stories have that too) is not believable to me if taken literally. I have less problem with such things if taken as allegory, symbol, myth capturing some greater lesson etc. So, I do not teach Catholicism, Judaism at Treeleaf any more than I teach "energy vibrations" or some of the (to me anyway) silly and superstitious stories and beliefs of Buddhism (here is an example from yesterdays "Onions and Garlic" thread) ...

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post100772

    In my personal view, ANY exaggerated and unsubstantiated claims of miracles and magic by anyone is likely "hooey and poppy-cock" if taken literally, so I do not teach them here as literal truths. (I also do not teach these things here because they are irrelevant to our Shikantaza practice, much they same as "auto-mechanics" is irrelevant, so I do not teach carburetor tuning here either! ). However, I am not the final word on such things, and someone else may find great value in such teachings, from transmogrification of wine to the blood of Christ to "energy vibrations" to something else. One man's "baseless myth" is another man's "wise teaching".

    In the end, belief in each is just another "chair in the room" to move around as one wishes. Nothing about believing or not believing in such things which ultimately impacts Shikantaza one bit.

    Gassho, J

    PS - I am hoping the Gustav will be a guest speaker here, and lead a short Zazenkai at Treeleaf, this summer. Maybe he can speak on these themes.
    Last edited by Jundo; 05-11-2013 at 02:37 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  2. #52
    God, Budhha, Allah, Catholic, Protestant, Soto, Rinzai, Theravada, Pure Land, Gelugpa, Nyingma, Sunni, Shiite, Atheist, Agnostic, Humanist, Hindu, Democrat, Republican, Communist, Capitalist......all are just piss in the wind. What counts is being at peace with yourself & the world & being kind to those around you.

    _/\_
    Ade

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by jus View Post

    id be more interested in learning about stuff like working with universal energy (chi?), raising vibrations, etc. is stuff like this found in the tao or any other eastern thought that would be compatable with zen practice?
    Hi Justin, I thought I would add just a little to Jundo's assessment of chi. Not only do I agree with him, but I would also like to add that I think the pursuit of such things is a little bit dangerous. Not for the reasons people may normally tell you. To get my point across, I will tell one more personal story (I may have shared this before, but I forget.)

    When I was young I was pretty small and very weak. I was the ultimate book reading nerd. I could read several books in a day easily. I read the entire set of encyclopedias in middle school, but I couldn't fight, couldn't do a pull up, and couldn't run fast... you get the idea. So, after reading a black belt magazine I decided to study martial arts. My first teacher was a big believer in this internal energy "chi" stuff. I wanted to believe so badly. It was a short, skinny nerd's dream. I threw myself into practicing my chi/ki exercises. I did all kinds of whackaloon crap for way too long chasing that dream.Then one day I sparred a friend who was learning kickboxing. Guess what? All my ki training didn't do one god damn thing. Nothing. It was the same as if a had practiced the ancient art of voice throwing in preparation for fighting. I didn't make me stronger, faster, or better. I didn't heal faster, I couldn't read my opponents, nothing. Before that sparring session I though I had achieved all of those things. I had deluded myself. I tricked myself into thinking I was doing something while doing nothing. All of that time would have been better spent exercising, meditating, doing kata, juggling, or reading. I would later study jujitsu, where we would occasionally meet people pandering these "secret" skills. But in juijitsu and judo, if it doesn't work on the mat it is rapidly ignored. I once watched my instructor choke out a kung fu guy while still standing up (he didn't even have to drag him down to the ground). The guy attempted to incapacitate him with chi. It NEVER worked.

    Please, spend your time reading science books, doing zazen, working out, or doing samu. It will all be better than chasing that chi dream.

    Much metta
    Charles
    If I'm already enlightened why the hell is this so hard?

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by willow View Post
    I feel more free of labels since practicing Zen - not totally free because we're forever trapped within language...... and yet - there are those fleeting moments in zazen when this seems not to be the case. Those rare moments of 'interbe' fly free of dogma, ritual, doctrine.Be free - don't stress about difference - lead a good life - everything follows naturally from following the precepts.

    Gassho


    Willow

    Thank you Willow, you have summed up my sentiments nicely. I was brought up as a United Protestant (a very sombre, strait backed kind of church). My wife and children are Catholic and we were married in a Catholic church. I used to feel uncomfortable at Mass with all the ritual, kneeling and such but have found my Zen practice helped my feel more at ease.
    Gassho, Jakudo.
    Gassho, Shawn Jakudo Hinton
    It all begins when we say, “I”. Everything that follows is illusion.
    "Even to speak the word Buddha is dragging in the mud soaking wet; Even to say the word Zen is a total embarrassment."
    寂道

  5. #55
    Oh, good story Charles. I really liked that.

    I also really enjoyed Hans' talk, too. Very nice. I'm going to watch it again right now.

    I'm reminded of a story about Suzuki Roshi. It's something about vegetarians. The anecdote goes something like this: Suzuki Roshi smashed a finger while doing some work. He had to go to the hospital and so had one of the students drive him. This particular student was a very strict vegan, I believe. He hadn't eaten any meat product in a couple years. Suzuki Roshi was aware of this and I think even asked the student about it a couple times. The student was very serious about the whole vegan thing. Anyway, after the hospital, Suzuki Roshi was hungry and told the student to stop for some food. There were only fast food places. The student said this and Suzuki Roshi just said, Stop here at this one. The student ordered a grilled cheese and Suzuki Roshi got a double hamburger. Already the student was studying the grilled cheese with great disgust and annoyance, frustrated that after a couple years of not eating animal products, he was now going to consume CHEESE! Suzuki Roshi took a bite of his hamburger and said something like, I'm not in the mood for this, let's trade. He took the grilled cheese and ate it and waited until the student finished his sandwich. The student never took the whole food thing so seriously again, so the story goes.

    Gassho
    Shōmon

  6. #56
    Why both?
    Gassho, Kaishin
    Thanks,
    Kaishin (開心, Open Heart)
    Please take this layman's words with a grain of salt.

  7. #57
    About the Chi thing...

    I do Tai-Chi, Ba Duan Jin and some other Qigong practices, but no, I don't believe in the concept of Chi either!
    I practice these things for health reasons.
    The movements stretch your body (a bit like yoga) and since you "synchronize" them with your breathing you relax at the same time.
    And when you have the mindset of shikantaza while you practice, you have something like zazen in motion...
    Due to my job I sit at least 8 hours per day in front of a computer. This means potential problems for the back.

    Since I practice these techniques I have never had back problems again, my body posture improved dramatically (I used to have a very bad posture), my breathing became healthier, and I am more relaxed.
    Sometimes I get a tingling and very warm feeling in my body. However, while some people call that chi, I think this phenomenon can be explained scientifically, but I am no expert in biology.

    So I say yes to Qigong practices for health reasons, but building up Chi? I think this is concept that was used in the past in order to explain processes in the body that could not be explained otherwise back then.
    I'd really, really like to do yoga as well, but well, I tried - I guess I am basket case when it comes to this...

    Gassho,

    Timo
    no thing needs to be added

  8. #58
    I have only done Tai Chi a couple of times, but I know what you mean with that tingly feeling. Chi or no Chi I do remember it was a really, really cool art. Yoga is really fun too; I like how it kicks your ass because you just have to stay there in those deep bended lunge postures (aka warriors) etc. It's like a strength and stretch exercise all in one.

    Now I could teach you the mystical secrets. Please email me and I will tell you them for 4 payments of $30. haahhhah just kidding

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Risho View Post
    I have only done Tai Chi a couple of times, but I know what you mean with that tingly feeling. Chi or no Chi I do remember it was a really, really cool art. Yoga is really fun too; I like how it kicks your ass because you just have to stay there in those deep bended lunge postures (aka warriors) etc. It's like a strength and stretch exercise all in one.

    Now I could teach you the mystical secrets. Please email me and I will tell you them for 4 payments of $30. haahhhah just kidding
    Can I pay by PayPal? But, hey wait a minute, 30 bucks?

    BTW: You also get this tingly feeling with some relaxation techniques like "Progressive Muscle Relaxation" - I guess you get this when the body relaxes really deeply.
    When people ask me whether they should practice zazen (or meditation in general) in order to relax I always tell them there are much more effective methods for relaxing.
    But well, this is one of those cliches that we must live with, I guess...

    Gassho,

    Timo
    no thing needs to be added

  10. #60
    I am going to respond to Timo's post from the other thread here, just to keep everything together ...

    Quote Originally Posted by LimoLama View Post
    I know people who call themselves Catholics, but don't believe in a personal god, or don't believe in Jesus being the son of god or don't believe in Mary being a virgin - but I would not call them Catholics anymore (although they themselves still do).
    So as soon as someone during zazen drops one of those dogmas issued by the Pope, I would not call them a Catholic anymore - that's what I meant with you cannot practice both.

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post100943
    I want to be clear that I believe that someone --CAN-- believe in a personal god, that Jesus is the son of god, that Mary was a Virgin and follow every pronouncement of the Pope and still practice Zen without conflict.

    Or, you can not believe and do those things (like me) and still practice Zen without conflict.

    There can be no conflict in Zen Practice with such beliefs ... all chairs that are in or not in the room while we Practice Zen.

    Gassho, Jundo

    By the way, commenting on the concept of "Buddha" in the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra (the same is found in other Mahayana Sutras traditionally cherished by Zen folks like Dogen such as the Lotus and Flower Garland), Dr. Guang Xing writes:

    'One of the main themes of the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra is that the Buddha is eternal, a theme very much in contrast with the Hinayana idea that the Buddha departed for ever after his final nirvana. The Mahayanists assert the eternity of the Buddha in two ways in the Mahaparinirvana Sutra. They state that the Buddha is the dharmakaya, and hence eternal. Next, they re-interpret the liberation of the Buddha as mahaparinirvana possessing four attributes: eternity, happiness, self and purity. In other words, according to the Mahayanists, the fact that the Buddha abides in the mahaparinirvana means not that he has departed for ever, but that he perpetually abides in intrinsic quiescence. The Buddha abiding in intrinsic quiescence is none other than the dharmakaya ... This dharmakaya is the real Buddha. It is on this doctrinal foundation that the Mahaparinirvana Sutra declares:"the dharmakaya has [the attributes of] eternity (nitya), happiness (sukha), self (atman) and purity (subha) and is perpetually free from birth, old age, sickness, death and all other sufferings ... It exists eternally without change ..."



    This Dharamakaya Buddha took form as the Nirmanakaya, the flesh and blood Buddha, Gautama Buddha. This is Mahayana Buddhism 101. I put forth to you too that Mahayana perspectives like that (and Amida the Savior, etc.) are only a hop, skip and a jump from the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. It is not my particular interest ... because to me it is all just placing chairs in the room ... but there is ample common ground for those who wish.


    http://www.misterdanger.net/books/Bu...e%20Buddha.pdf
    Last edited by Jundo; 05-12-2013 at 02:15 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  11. #61
    It's interesting (to my tiny little mind ) but when I first came to Buddhism (or at least Zen) I remember saying to a friend I was overjoyed at finding a faith/practice which didn't force a belief in an interventionist God.

    After reading Thich Nhat Hahn's 'The energy of prayer' and 'Living Buddha, Living Christ' and opening my mind to the input of TreeLeaf's Christian Buddhist members I began to see things very differently.

    I now see Buddhism as the ground beneath everybody's feet and it doesn't really matter which direction we walk in with other faiths/beliefs etc - we are all fundamentally standing on the same ground.

    Gassho

    Willow

    (Timo - I have left a comment in reply to yours over on the 'I am leaving' thread )
    Last edited by Jinyo; 05-12-2013 at 08:17 AM.

  12. #62
    I said in the other Thread I don't want to start the discussion anew, and I really want to adhere to this.

    Just wanted to add that Willow's comment above which is in brackets could give the impression I want to leave - that is not the case, I just tried to dissuade people from leaving in said thread.

    @Jundo:
    I see, understand, and accept your point of view. I could give you arguments against your last post as well, but I am pretty sure nobody will totally convince the other completely. And that's fine for me - these are just different opinions for me.
    It takes up too much energy for me, and especially time that I'd like to invest otherwise (especially for my familiy and sitting).

    For me Zen practice is enough in itself - other dogmas are an unnecessary addition that could become an obstacle.
    Anyway, time to move on to other topics (for me).

    Gassho,

    Timo
    no thing needs to be added

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by LimoLama View Post
    About the Chi thing...

    I do Tai-Chi, Ba Duan Jin and some other Qigong practices, but no, I don't believe in the concept of Chi either!
    I practice these things for health reasons.
    I'm all for this. I would actually like to study tai-chi one day too. Not because it is magical, but because scientist have figured out that getting up and moving around is really good. Tai-chi seems like it would be the perfect thing for off days or slow days when ALL my joints hurt (like today for instance)


    I'd really, really like to do yoga as well, but well, I tried - I guess I am basket case when it comes to this...
    That makes two of us! I purchased two different yoga dvds only to find out that me and yoga don't mix (except for downward dog. I have that move down)
    If I'm already enlightened why the hell is this so hard?

  14. #64
    me and yoga don't mix (except for downward dog. I have that move down)[/QUOTE]

    I've got corpse pose down pretty well.

  15. #65
    catfish, jundo, thank you. ive always been interested in metaphysics and abstract stuff, but im not on that new age bandwagon. i guess more "ancient"- vedas, kemet, stuff like that. i think i was just at a point the other day where i was begining to think of my practice as becoming "too cerebral". and i know its just an idea, but like the idea of this "supreme being" that were all part of, or aspects of. and the chakra thing, though i hate to admit it, im curious of that too. i guess fascinated by all things i cant physically sense, maybe thats part of trying to escape samsara. and maybe so, maybe not. how would i know. i just need to worry less and sit more. thank you for the replies.
    gassho,
    justin

  16. #66
    Last night, I was starting into Shunryu Suzuki's portion of the "Three Commentaries" on the Genjo Koan, when I ran into this passage right at the beginning:

    The Buddhist way is beyond being and non-being. We know each colorful thread and we know the whole woven cloth. We observe things in two ways without any contradiction. But when we are not sincere enough, we may say. "This is Buddhism, and this is another religion. We are monks, and they are laymen, that's all." You don't understand the whole beautiful cloth.


    I have been one of the people who are referred to by Dogen as being ignorant of their own ignorance. My apologies.


    Gassho,

    William

  17. #67
    Hi William,

    If you like a look at it from the other side of the no sided coin, and if you don’t mind the Christian Catholic terminology have a look at Hugo Enomiya Lasalle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Enomiya-Lassalle.
    He devoted much of his life building bridges between these two worlds. He even goes so far as to say both ‘religions’ need one another to survive and has a great understanding of both views and manages to write in an understandable way about it.

    Gassho

    Enkyo

  18. #68
    The Catholic Authorities were not amused btw:

    To quote from Enkyo's Wikipedia link about Lassalle:
    "In 1958, he published Zen: A Way to Enlightenment, but the Holy See ordered him not to continue publishing on the subject."

    Pretty much the same with Willigis Jäger, a Benedictine Zen Teacher. The following is from the German Wikipedia (which has more details on him, since he is a German):
    "In 2001 the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith which was lead by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (who later became Pope Benedict) at that time accused him [Willigis Jäger] of subordinating Catholic religious truths and thus issued a ban on speaking, a ban on writing, and a ban on public appearances."

    [bold highlighting by me]


    That's what I meant with problems to bring everything under one roof. There is not much tolerance to be expected from the Vatican in these matters...

    Gassho,

    Timo
    no thing needs to be added

  19. #69
    Hi Timo,

    Very true. But later in his life Catholic Church lifted that ban and a lot of good work was done since then I think. Lasalle wrote a lot of good stuff on the matter.

    Arthur Schopenhauer once said:

    "All truth goes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Then it is violently opposed. Finally it is accepted as self-evident."

    Seems to be the case here but only time will tell don't you think? I for one am sure the 21st century will bring great changes in the way religion and it's definition is perceived. Not in the least because of the emancipation of people’s minds through internet and other media. Look at both Zen monks serving cappuccino and Karaoke and Christian church doing very similar things in order to reach people. The church does not make people anymore but rather people make the church and peoples views of the world are changing, rapidly!

    Gassho

    Enkyo

  20. #70
    Hi Enkyo,

    I agree and I am fully on your side with this.
    I know lots of Catholics who desperately want to see changes in the Vatican.
    So let's hope the "ordinary believers" (i.e. non-clerics) - who are actually supposed to be the base of the church - will eventually succeed in convincing the Vatican to be more tolerant.
    I think they must create and be the change in order to make the Vatican loosen some dogmas.

    Gassho,

    Timo
    no thing needs to be added

  21. #71
    Interfaith and interbeing is the only way forward - lets hope that times really are ' a-changin'

    Gassho

    Willow

  22. #72

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by catfish View Post
    I once watched my instructor choke out a kung fu guy while still standing up (he didn't even have to drag him down to the ground). The guy attempted to incapacitate him with chi. It NEVER worked.

    Please, spend your time reading science books, doing zazen, working out, or doing samu. It will all be better than chasing that chi dream.
    This is pretty close to what happened to me. I used to believe in all the mysteries of the Chi and I drank the Kool-Aid that said that ancient Chinese culture had it right.

    So when training Karate-Do (age 13), I got my ass kicked hard because all my woowoo techniques didn't work. At all.

    In time I learned that science, physics and hard training are better than Chi.

    Chi is great for new age guys that want to either sell or consume magic methods for doing magical stuff, like getting in touch with totems and such.

    Thanks for your comment, Charles

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  24. #74
    Just to add the Anglican point of view, Rowan Williams, the then archbishop of Canterbury, described his faith as; "a silent waiting on the truth, pure sitting and breathing in the presence of the question mark".
    Does that sound familiar?
    .....not to Anglicans it didn't.
    Heisoku 平 息
    Every day is a journey, and the journey itself is home. (Basho)

  25. #75
    right on, kyonin. ive been let down by new age philosophies, big time. luckily nobody has ever choked me out because of them, only choked myself out. anyway, i think this is what the DH would have to say about this, "dont try to use what you learn from buddhism to be a buddhist, use it to be a better whatever-you-already-are!" -dalai lama. i think that was a quote aimed towards Christians, possibly? ive heard him say it to theravadans in Thailand when being questioned about Buddhism in the west, in particular those already involved in a relationship with god. the quote sounds extreme at face value, but i know what hes getting at. gassho, justin

  26. #76
    As usual will take time to read the whole thread later. So I'm answering by the original post. I agree that the two are in a way irreconcilable. But, at the same time I had a recent experience with the Catholic Church in the form of the funeral for my recently departed Grandmother.
    I am one who is usually extremely uncomfortable in Christian settings in general, and admittedly usually see the differences NOT the similarities. So , at first, I was a bit tense and uncomfortable. As the ceremony continued,i found that the passage read by the priest was actually quite Zen like.It warmed my heart and changed my view on Christianity in general and Catholicism specifically. Also of note was the priest mentioning the common practice of meditating on the Virgin Mary. Just the fact the he said meditation made me more comfortable. But the entirety of the service I didn't feel " excluded" or alone in my beliefs. I was seeing right before my eyes the vast similarities in the message. The way things were phrased didn't set off any of the usual "alarms" aka differences that make me feel uncomfortable.
    As for active/versus passive deities. I think that's a point we disagree on. But that's a whole different topic.
    Just my two cents ( feel free to convert to any form of international currency at current exchange rates).

    Dave _/\_

  27. #77
    Jus, what you say reminds me of a Zen story I once read. I don't remember all the specifics or even who to quote. But I believe it has a valid point. and I'm total paraphrasing but you'll see what I'm saying. Basically it was a Zen teacher talking about how he practiced Feng Shui , and it worked. But it was a distraction of the Way so he left it behind.He then follows this with how he later practiced the I-Ching ( a form of divination if you are unfamiliar) and stated that it too worked. But he found it was a distraction of the Way so he left it behind.
    That being said, for many years I was a non denominational neo-pagan primarily interested in cross-cultural shamanism. So i'm not against any form of energy work or the beliefs of such things. And do regularly take the time to practice Usui Reiki Ryoho ( a form of healing involving ki originating from Japan). But frankly, in my experience. Zen cuts right down to what all of that is truly about. It is in the end, the whole point of all that energy work. If you're looking to be able to perform cool magick tricks, squash that right out of your head because you are approaching it with the entirely wrong mindset. Question why you have an interest in these things and what you seek to gain from them. What are you prepared to sacrifice( not meaning sheep or your soul/that of others, if one is even to agree that such a thing exists) to receive what are holy teachings requiring many hours of practice not a simple recitation of some chant in the latest fad book written by Witch X. And also keep in mind that in every form of energy work there seems to be one huge common denominator. The absolute most basic foundation ( and simultaneously most profound) is...guess what....meditation.
    So just sit.

    Dave _/\_
    Last edited by Shonin; 05-26-2013 at 09:24 AM.

  28. #78
    The other week, through no fault of Jesus and all to his credit, I was in my local Catholic Church during Happy Hour or Holy hour, I think it was . . . sitting about as if the last judgement was never going to happen.
    Nobody will ever know I was doing 'just sitting' Buddhist meditation. The next time I see a Catholic contemplative at a temple, I will not be too concerned if they are secretly conversing with Yahweh. Atheists may even be ignoring the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I know or care.

    May Christ be with us. Allah Akbar. All hail His Supreme noodliness . . .

  29. #79
    I had (and I am still struggling, though much less now) with a somewhat same dilemma, but with an Orthodox Christianity. And I realized that this struggle I feel is not because Orthodox Christianity itself is incompatible with Zen itself (there are certain potent parallels, but they are not stressed out enough in Orthodox, or any other Christian theology, it seems to me), but because I see that Orthodox Christians, the Orthodox Church and it's priests are not compatible with Zen.
    But that just means those people are being d#cks. At least, that is how I see it at the moment.
    I realise that I am not yet in the state where those differences have faded away, but I know it will come to me one day.
    "Stone by stone- a pallace!"
    Serbian proverb

  30. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by jus View Post
    "IMHO Zen is not something that can be combined indiscriminately with everything - there is no use to say otherwise just out of fear to get on the wrong side of somebody..."


    but id be more interested in learning about stuff like working with universal energy (chi?), raising vibrations, etc. is stuff like this found in the tao or any other eastern thought that would be compatable with zen practice?

    thank you..

    gassho,

    justin

    I know that Reddit/meditation discusses this quite often (chi and life force). As a Reiki practitioner (which started in buddhism, not zen, but buddhism non the less) I can discuss a little about the foundations and answer questions if you have any. Its the Japanese version of Chi simply called Ki. I could point you in a couple directions if you want.

    Just a few suggestions

    Gassho,

    James

    (btw if discussing anything I have talked about here is against the rules I am sorry and I will delete this comment if needed.)

  31. #81
    Hi James,

    Discussing Reiki and such is not against the rules at all. But I personally am very skeptical of many of the claims about it and related practices of manipulating ki.

    http://www.skepticblog.org/2011/10/1...t-work-either/

    By the way, Reiki itself is nearly unknown here in Japan where its founder lived. It became much more well known overseas.

    Nonetheless, effective or not, there is nothing to prevent someone from practicing Reiki or the like with Zen Practice. And of course, a kind and gentle touch and laying on of hands is always welcome, even if just a friendly embrace, with or without ki.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Last edited by Jundo; 06-02-2013 at 04:17 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  32. #82
    Yes I know the skepticism behind it, and I am not here to shove it down anyones throat. Quite honestly I believe every "age" has had their spiritual healing techniques. Weither it be shamanism, medicine men, or what not. I believe Reiki is a new take on an ancient practice. But this talk if for another time. I just thought I would offer my assistance is anyone is willig to talk about universal life force. Since it is something that is taught threw out any form of energy healing.

    Gassho,

    James

  33. #83
    Actually, oddly enough, Reiki is what lead me to Zen Buddhism. After my first attunement i felt as though i had a different outlook on life. I wanted to find a spiritual practice that made more sense to me. I immediately picked up the book My Spiritual Journey by His Holiness The Dalai Llama. After reading that book I let it set in for a while, and found it to my liking. I then found a Buddhist group that had weekly sittings and started to attend. I had no clue what "Zen" Buddhism was at the time, but liked the sittings. The Priest who lead the sittings directed me here for when I couldn't make it to his sittings

    Just a fun story

    Gassho,

    James

  34. #84
    Thank you, James, for your open minded attitude.

    Just to be clear, I am not saying that a Practice such a energy healing is necessarily untrue, but only that I personally am rather skeptical to the point of not believing in many of the claims about it or descriptions of the mechanism. I am also not saying that there is anything wrong about it for some people if it brings them joy and a feeling of connection and healing. Good for them, and the world can use such.

    Even the medicine men and witch doctors of old were surprisingly effective and important in their villages. Whether their spells and potions actually cured is one thing, but they brought comfort to many and hope to those suffering, and even belief in the power of healing alone can often bring healing.

    So, I am a skeptic ... but an open minded skeptic. As Shakespeare said, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." I am not the last word, simply doubting and agnostic on certain claims. I may doubt based on controlled studies, but do not doubt the power of the mind to heal itself, and to have real physiological effects thereby, simply by its belief. What is more, maybe all the claims about Reiki or the like are true ... many things first doubted or unproven later prove true.

    If a person were to avoid seeing a medical doctor, for example, with simple reliance on "energy healing" to cure cancer in its early stages, I would be very concerned. But if one turns to "healing" in the final stages, because all else has failed and it brings peace and hope ... I would encourage so. In fact, I would encourage seeing the healer and the medical physician at once if it brings hope and comfort.

    There are certainly practices and vices in this world that one should avoid because they do harm. Laying on a caring and healing hand is not one of them.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 06-02-2013 at 03:08 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  35. #85
    There is much evidence on both sides of the fence. Its really up to the potential recipient. And in no way do I believe that I or any Reiki practitioner can cure cancer or any disease. I believe it can help calm the mind and the energies and alleviate the stress, allowing for energy to flow. Or at least, for the body to recuperate at a better speed. If i ever was to open up a practice (unlikely) in bold letter there would be NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR DOCTORAL MEDICINE. I believe it can work well WITH doctoral medicine. Furthermore, a broken bone cannot be healed from a Reiki practitioner. But the pain and energies can be soother to promote a better and possibly faster healing.

    My thoughts on my practice. Thanks for not completely shooting my practice down

    Gassho,

    James

  36. #86
    I was raised as a Catholic, I never went through the formal Catholic education of your level, but even though my family was relatively liberal and neutral, it was a custom in my home country for every kid to undergo basic Catholic training. I was born after the Second Vatican Council, but the Church in my home country picked up the deformations very gradually and hesitantly. I left Catholicism at 13 years of age and have gone though the an angry anti-religious stage. I don't claim that Catholicism is compatible with Zen, also there is no way back, nor do I feel like going back.

    But after long years, some reading, some calming down, I realized that in 99% it was my anger talking.

    I could go on about every single point you listed (for example the belief in literal heavens and hells is an element in most of Buddhist sects, both Hina- and Mahayana, Self/Other power in Pure Land Buddhism vs Christ, and how they seem to merge into one Power in Jodo Shinshu and ultimately in Zen etc etc etc), but it's the "wafer" that is worth mentioning because it's what the entire Catholicism is about.

    The Sacred becomes embodied in the world of flesh and blood and makes you Sacred (moves you further along the Path). In the "authentic" version, you accept it kneeling and the entire thing takes place in Latin language, and you don't understand a word, which makes the moment even more extraordinary. The "transformation" is performed by priests of unbroken lineage (apostles->bishops, bishops->priests). Could there be a way in this?

    Now, in Zen, you train under a Teacher from an unbroken lineage. Like a priest, the teacher is not always perfect (Shunryu Suzuki liked to drink, now I am hearing about another Japanese Zen priest in the US who liked to have a good time with female disciples). You sit zazen, and are supposed to believe you are Buddha and there is no duality between you and the world outside you. Do you really believe it? You are told there is no need to believe in anything, but then you are told you are Buddha and always have been. Unless you have had this realization (I have not, yet), this is a mere belief and a very bold one.

    Gassho,
    Mike

    P.S. Rene Guenon and Fritjoff Schuon may be worth checking out (with a grain of salt)

  37. #87
    Hi Mike,

    Actually I wanted to forget this thread as I feel there was a lot of misunderstanding involved...
    You can look for and list as many parallels as you like - I never said there are no parallels to be found.
    But well, I could even tell you parallels between satanism a la La Vey and Zen. You can *always* find parallels.
    There is a decisive difference though that cannot be explained away:
    To use the concept of God: In Catholicism god is something external, separate from you and the universe. In Zen God is you and in fact everything there is... (one could argue though whether it makes sense to use this word in the first place, but I guess you know what I mean.)


    Quote Originally Posted by toshiro_mifune View Post
    You sit zazen, and are supposed to believe you are Buddha and there is no duality between you and the world outside you. Do you really believe it? You are told there is no need to believe in anything, but then you are told you are Buddha and always have been. Unless you have had this realization (I have not, yet), this is a mere belief and a very bold one.
    I can't remember I have said that Zen does not involve some kind of belief or trust, so actually I could consider this as a strawman argument and leave it as that.

    I prefer to keep my answer on a general level (there are things I am only willing to talk about with my teachers):
    It is not about believing for everyone. And everyone has at least a chance to find out.

    But forget about Kensho/Satori/Enlightenment/etc. This practice is not about these things.
    Perhaps for Rinzai practitioners.
    Maybe you might check out the stuff from Kodo Sawaki...

    Gassho,

    Timo
    Last edited by Daitetsu; 09-15-2013 at 09:10 PM.
    no thing needs to be added

  38. #88
    .. and even more between La Vey's satanism and Catholicism No, I am not arguing for Catholicism. Just pointing out that you can't expect a religion or a spiritual path to be rational. External or pantheistic God, little difference when the rubber hits the road.
    And, also that, even though everyone denies it, there is an element of belief in Zen (you didn't say that and I don't claim you did). Non-dualism and inherent Buddha nature is very hard to swallow, at least for me, and I have to actually have some level of trust that Dogen and others acquired this kind of experiential knowledge and are trying to point us to it.

    Gassho,
    Mike

    Quote Originally Posted by LimoLama View Post
    Hi Mike,

    Actually I wanted to forget this thread as I feel there was a lot of misunderstanding involved...
    You can look for and list as many parallels as you like - I never said there are no parallels to be found.
    But well, I could even tell you parallels between satanism a la La Vey and Zen. You can *always* find parallels.
    There is a decisive difference though that cannot be explained away:
    To use the concept of God: In Catholicism god is something external, separate from you and the universe. In Zen God is you and in fact everything there is... (one could argue though whether it makes sense to use this word in the first place, but I guess you know what I mean.)




    I can't remember I have said that Zen does not involve some kind of belief or trust, so actually I could consider this as a strawman argument and leave it as that.

    I prefer to keep my answer on a general level (there are things I am only willing to talk about with my teachers):
    It is not about believing for everyone. And everyone has at least a chance to find out.

    But forget about Kensho/Satori/Enlightenment/etc. This practice is not about these things.
    Perhaps for Rinzai practitioners.
    Maybe you might check out the stuff from Kodo Sawaki...

    Gassho,

    Timo

  39. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by toshiro_mifune View Post

    Now, in Zen, you train under a Teacher from an unbroken lineage. Like a priest, the teacher is not always perfect (Shunryu Suzuki liked to drink, now I am hearing about another Japanese Zen priest in the US who liked to have a good time with female disciples). You sit zazen, and are supposed to believe you are Buddha and there is no duality between you and the world outside you. Do you really believe it? You are told there is no need to believe in anything, but then you are told you are Buddha and always have been. Unless you have had this realization (I have not, yet), this is a mere belief and a very bold one.
    Just a few words on misconceptions of misconceptions ...

    The "unbroken lineage" is likely not historical, is filled with names of people who could not have been connected, many who had little to do with "Zen", could not have lived at the times indicated, or were completely fictional. The "unbroken lineage" was created by men in China to draw a symbolic link back to Buddha, but was a kind of religious fable or propaganda.

    http://www.thezensite.com/ZenBookRev...hrough_zen.htm

    Nonetheless, the "unbroken lineage" stands for somebody, somewhere ... nameless man and women who have kept the flame of this Way burning over the millenia back to the source.

    In fact, "Zen" largely emerged when Indian Buddhist Teachings encountered Chinese-Taoist Sensibilities (and then Japanese Culture). ... yet the blending of flavors also emerged as something very rich and nourishing. It is quite the same, yet different ... sometimes quite different, while just the same with the historical Buddha's original formulations. Now, Western and modern spices are added too. I sometimes compare Buddhism to how the Model T became a Prius ... yet same basic 4-wheels with seats design on the road to not going.

    Zen Teachers are human beings. Most Buddhist Teachers I know are generally caring, devoted, wise, compassionate, well trained, illuminating, enlightening folks ... mixed in with a small number of bad apples. I speak about that quite often.

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...Finger-Wagging

    and

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...-Safe-Landings

    You are not supposed to "believe" that there is no duality between you and the world outside you. You are to experience and embody so. In fact, the silly belief that there are only two parts to reality ... "you" and everything else in the universe that is "not you" ... is kinda the silly belief. "Buddha" (not to be confused with the historical human being by the same title, although he was Buddha too as are you ...) is just a "code word" for that where all said divisions are dropped. Or, better put, the vision of life of divisions and things bumping into each other ... and without divisions and bumping ... are encountered as not two.

    Quote Originally Posted by LimoLama View Post

    But forget about Kensho/Satori/Enlightenment/etc. This practice is not about these things.
    Perhaps for Rinzai practitioners.
    Maybe you might check out the stuff from Kodo Sawaki...

    Gassho,

    Timo
    HUH!?! Where did this come from, Timo?

    I believe you confuse our "not chasing after, radically giving up the hunt" with "not finding". Who said that our Way ain't about Kensho-Satori-Enlightenment? Certainly not Kodo.

    Here, please, carve this in your bones ...

    Who ever said that there is "nothing to find" in, through and as this practice of "not seeking", no place to "get", no treasure to snare at the end of the rainbow?

    Not me. I never would say such a thing. Then why pursue this path?

    Who ever said there is no "enlightenment" to be achieved? I never would say that. It would not be Buddhism in that case.
    More here ...

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...-enlightenment

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-16-2013 at 04:17 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  40. #90
    A couple of Kodo Sawaki quotes on Satori ...

    We don’t practice in order to get satori. It’s satori that pulls our practice. We practice, being dragged all over by satori.

    You don’t seek the way. The way seeks you.

    You study, you do sports, and you’re fixated on satori and illusion. So that even zazen becomes a marathon for you, with satori as the finish line. Yet because you’re trying to grab it, you’re missing it completely. Only when you stop meddling like this does your original, cosmic nature realize itself.

    You say you’re seeking the way, but what does it mean if you’re seeking the way just to satisfy yourself?

    You want to become a buddha? There’s no need to become a buddha! Now is simply now. You are simply you. And tell me, since you want to leave the place where you are,where is it exactly you want to go?

    Zazen means just sitting without even thinking of becoming buddha.

    We don’t achieve satori through practice: practice is satori. Each and every step is the goal.
    Don’t take pride in your practice. It’s clear that any satori you take pride in is a lie.

    You’ve got it backwards if you talk about stages of practice. Practice is satori.

    Satori is like a thief breaking into an empty house. He breaks in but there’s nothing to steal. No reason to flee. No one who chases him. So there’s nothing which could satisfy him either.
    The buddha-dharma is immeasurable and unlimited. How could it ever have been made to fit into your categories.

    No matter what you are grasping for, it’s limited.

    In any case, only things for ordinary people can be grasped. Grasping for money, clinging to health, being attached to position and title, grasping for satori – everything you grasp only becomes the property of an ordinary person. Letting go of ordinary people’s property – that’s what it means to be a buddha.

    When peace of mind only means your personal satisfaction, then it’s got nothing to do with the buddha-dharma.

    The buddha-dharma teaches limitlessness. That which is measureless has to be accepted without complaint.

    You lack peace of mind because you’re running after an idea of total peace of mind. That’s backwards. Be attentive to your mind in each moment, no matter how unpeaceful it might seem to be. Great peace of mind is realized only in the practice within this unpeaceful mind. It arises out of the interplay between peaceful and unpeaceful mind.

    A peace of mind that is totally at peace would be nothing more than something ready made. Real peace of mind only exists within unpeaceful mind.

    When dissatisfaction is finally accepted as dissatisfaction, peace of mind reigns. It’s the mind of a person who had been deaf to criticism when he finally listens to others talking about his mistakes. It’s the mind of a person who, naked and begging for his life, suddenly dies peacefully. It’s the mind of a person who has suddenly lost the beggar who had been pulling at his sleeve, relentlessly following him around everywhere,. It’s the mind after the flood in which the make-up of piety has washed away.

    How could a human being ever have peace of mind? The real question is what you’re doing with this human life. What you’re doing with this stinking sack of flesh, that’s the issue.
    http://antaiji.dogen-zen.de/eng/kodo...i-to-you.shtml
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-16-2013 at 05:05 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  41. #91
    Hi Jundo,

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post

    HUH!?! Where did this come from, Timo?

    I believe you confuse our "not chasing after, radically giving up the hunt" with "not finding". Who said that our Way ain't about Kensho-Satori-Enlightenment? Certainly not Kodo.

    Here, please, carve this in your bones ...
    I am sorry, this is another misunderstanding.
    I was indeed talking about chasing a single big boom satori experience.
    Kodo Sawaki mostly spoke about practice-enlightenment, but used for both the expression satori.

    So IMHO our practice is not about the goal of achieving a big satori experience (although having one is not bad and neither to belittled nor to be raised on a pedestal). As you have said several times, it is like hiking and coming across a beautiful scenery. But then it's time to move on.

    I referred to Kodo Sawaki, because in my opinion he explains the concept of practice-enlightenment (i.e. the actualizing of Buddha-nature when we sit or in other activities) in an excellent way. And practice-enlightenment is the thing that is at the core of our Soto tradition IMHO.
    Using the expression Satori for both a "unique peak event" and for practice-enlightenment can be tricky.

    Hope I could clarify my point of view with this.

    Gassho,

    Timo
    no thing needs to be added

  42. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    You are not supposed to "believe" that there is no duality between you and the world outside you. You are to experience and embody so. In fact, the silly belief that there are only two parts to reality ... "you" and everything else in the universe that is "not you" ... is kinda the silly belief. "Buddha" (not to be confused with the historical human being by the same title, although he was Buddha too as are you ...) is just a "code word" for that where all said divisions are dropped. Or, better put, the vision of life of divisions and things bumping into each other ... and without divisions and bumping ... are encountered as not two.
    Of course. But the entry level person who is drawn to zazen, usually does it with some belief, something they had read or had been told. Otherwise they wouldn't undertake this activity, which to a person from the street may not seem very exciting. So even without clining to or gaining, they "expect" in a way, and even "know" more or less what to expect. This is of course immaterial, I was just trying to point out the fact that a belief never plays any role in Zen seems to be a bit of a stretch.

    Gassho,
    Mike

  43. #93
    Hi Mike,

    Of course. One must trust or rely on what the folks are telling one about this Practice at the start. But, after a certain point, one comes to taste such for oneself.

    It is a bit like I believed my dad when he said I could ride a bicycle even though it looked so hard. It took some tries, but he was right!

    Gassho, J

    PS - I know what Timo actually meant to say. My comment was not for him really (I know he knows), but for the many folks new to Soto Zen who might have taken literally his comment that our Soto/Koda Sawaki Way is not about "kenshosatorienlightenment, that's the Rinzai fellows not us". That is very easy for newcomers to misunderstand.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  44. #94
    Thank you.


    Gassho,
    Edward
    "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

  45. #95
    WOW! great thread and subject! thanks all for sharing! Iīd like to share my view, briefly : If we live our dharma practice to the heart, dinamic and alive, not like a bunch of precepts, rules, recipes and rituals, it combines really well with catholic and christian religions, and maybe other religions too, of course there will be points where things donīt match perfect but is up to each one of us to decide how to combine our stuff. I donīt encourage "just brainless mixing" to anyone but a more aware, here and now and wholesome and view. But then, thatīs just me and my deluded mind.



    Gassho
    Dancing between stillness and motion I find peace.

  46. #96
    As a student of Comparative Religions I have found this conversation very interseting. Since I have nor read the whole thread I don't know if THomas Merton has been brought here. He was a ROman Catholic Trappist Monk who embraced Zen Buddhism. He believed that RC mediattion was very close to Zazen. I believe they are. Besides that, I could mention the ideas of the Saints and Boddhisatvas, the litanies and prayers of Tibetan Buddhism, the ideas of atonning for sin, and even the belief in purgatory and Samsara are very close one from the other.

    http://www.thomasmertonsociety.org/altany2.htm

  47. #97
    I tend to find that people need religion to placate the ego's fear of death. The ego cannot accept that one day it will become as if it never were and creates all sorts of mythologies to calm it. Unfortunately it does anything but. I find the idea of personality survival beyond death absurd in the extreme. Why on earth would we want to hold on to the ignorant limitations of this human life? My only thoughts on life after death are- How can something that was never created cease to be? I was raised without religion so I fortunately escaped the mind f*ck that it can be on a person later in life when they lose it. All of my problems stemmed from my own creation and I am thankfully reworking that soil and planting better seeds.

    Gassho, Jeffrey
    "I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived."
    Henry David Thoreau, Walden

  48. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffreyB View Post
    I tend to find that people need religion to placate the ego's fear of death. The ego cannot accept that one day it will become as if it never were and creates all sorts of mythologies to calm it.
    Gassho, Jeffrey
    Well put. :-)

    Gassho, John

  49. #99
    Jeffery,

    I see your point but have to disagree a bit.

    Religion is not always and only about death and dealing with it. It's mostly about life and how you live it. Like most other religions, there are differences but also great similarities. Looking at the Precepts, we we quickly see the 10 commandments are not all that different. This among other similarities and the fact that Buddhism and Christianity compliment each other more often then not, make that I have no trouble both being both an observant Christian and a sincere student of Zen. The combination makes that I not only live life but work on living it well!

    What comes after life?

    Tree in the park
    blackbird calling on the roof
    raindrops in my begging bowl.

    Gassho

    Enkyo
    Mu

  50. #100
    I practice to eventually accept death, not rationalize it, though I admit that the latter was my initial mindset.
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

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