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Thread: Throw everything away!!!

  1. #1
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Throw everything away!!!

    Somebody came up on another thread with the topic of the observer. There would be an "I" closer to the real me once you witness what takes place. This is found in modern Advaita as well as in the teachings of many New Age leading figures. Somehow we would all be going to the movies, enjoying the trailers and the film, stuffing our face with ice cream and popcorn knowing that it is not real, that this over there cannot be identified with the guy sitting.

    The observer. A spiritual myth exploited by a bunch of clever spiritual salesmen with a few goodies for all of you ranging from " this is how I became enlightened " to " how to live in the present".

    Let s make it very clear. Once reached, this simplicity conceals the treasure. There is nobody left. Nothing to grasp. Nobody to see or know. Tolle caught the tail of the ox and turned it into a sceptre. Not even good enough to get rid of flies. Good to make money. But that s not shinjin , body and mind dropped away.

    As Trungpa puts it, and I said this already, the ego wants to see its own funeral. But it cannot. No witness in Buddha land, no Buddha to see or being seen. Eyes cannot see themselves. Once realized, no traces of Buddha, no whiff of awakening.

    The stench of : "now I see" is but a toy in ignorant hands.

    Throw everything away.

    Gassho


    Taigu
    Last edited by Taigu; 05-01-2013 at 12:11 AM.
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  2. #2
    Thx taigu.
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

  3. #3
    Thanks a lot, Taigu!
    "The Watcher"/"Observer" seems like an additional "layer"...

    Gassho,

    Timo
    no thing needs to be added

  4. #4
    Thank you for this teaching Taigu.

    Gassho
    Shingen
    倫道 真現

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  5. #5
    Treeleaf Unsui Yugen's Avatar
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    Deep bows Teacher.

    Yugen
    Please take all my comments with a grain of salt - I am a novice priest and anything I say is to be taken with a good dose of skepticism - Shodo Yugen

  6. #6
    Last edited by Kaishin; 04-30-2013 at 01:12 AM.
    Gassho,
    Kaishin

  7. #7
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
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    Merci.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Shuso and Ango leader for September 2014.

    Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

  8. #8
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Tolle is the guy that wrote : the Power of Now" and wrote about this enlightenment experience and how he suddenly reached a wonderful state of being. The web is full of his teachings. Many You tube vids too. Check it out!
    As to the observer or witness, it is supposed to be this true you opposed to the fake you that you are all the time.

    Gassho

    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  9. #9
    Thank you.

    Gassho,

    Risho

  10. #10
    Senior Member Shujin's Avatar
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    Gassho.

    -Shujin

    PS - My brain had a moment of complete confusion when, looking at the other thread, I believed Tolle Eckhart and Meister Eckhart to be the same person. They're only separated by about 700 years... that's not too long, right?
    Last edited by Shujin; 04-30-2013 at 01:46 AM.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Jakudo's Avatar
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    "the ego wants to see its own funeral"

    Thanks for this Taigu!
    Gassho, Jakudo
    Gassho, Shawn Jakudo Hinton
    It all begins when we say, “I”. Everything that follows is illusion.
    "Even to speak the word Buddha is dragging in the mud soaking wet; Even to say the word Zen is a total embarrassment."
    寂道

  12. #12
    Senior Member Heishu's Avatar
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    Gassho
    Heishu

  13. #13
    Hi Shujin,

    Quote Originally Posted by Shujin View Post
    My brain had a moment of complete confusion when, looking at the other thread, I believed Tolle Eckhart and Meister Eckhart to be the same person.
    Actually, Eckhart is not the original forename of Tolle. His original name was Ulrich Tolle and he changed his forename into Eckhart. According to some people he did this as an allusion to Meister Eckhart.
    Anyway, what are names?

    Gassho,

    Timo
    no thing needs to be added

  14. #14
    Senior Member Genshin's Avatar
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    Thank you Taigu.

    Gassho,
    Matt

  15. #15
    Senior Member Heisoku's Avatar
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    Gassho.
    Heisoku
    平 息

  16. #16
    Senior Member Shujin's Avatar
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    Ah, this makes a lot more sense now. Thanks for clarifying

    Gassho,
    Shujin

    Quote Originally Posted by LimoLama View Post
    Hi Shujin,



    Actually, Eckhart is not the original forename of Tolle. His original name was Ulrich Tolle and he changed his forename into Eckhart. According to some people he did this as an allusion to Meister Eckhart.
    Anyway, what are names?

    Gassho,

    Timo

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    Throw everything away.
    Thank You !

    Gassho
    Patrick__________________________
    Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien. -Voltaire
    The better is the enemy of the good. -Voltaire

  18. #18
    I'd just like to check out a point of clarity.

    Not familiar with Trungpa so checked it out - and found myself watching a discussion between Trungpa and Krishnamurti. Understand these are different traditions with their own flavour of teaching but was struck by something Krishnamurti said - that seems to relate to this thread.

    Basically - the teaching was that there is always disorder within the mind - and that it is only by the observation of disorder that we can apprehend order (a sense of the absolute/unity?). Stillness come naturally when we have order (I'm paraphrasing here). We have to drop the 'me' because it is only the state of absence of 'me' that brings a sense of order.

    Is this teaching the same as body and mind dropped away?

    He also said it was central to ask the question 'Can the mind observe without memory and time?'

    He seemed to be saying that if the above can be experienced we are observing without the 'me' - which I guess is to step beyond discriminating, etc?.

    Anyway - no room for an extra observor, witness, true self, false self, - just emptiness?

    Or am I twisting Krishnamurti to fit Zen?

    Gassho

    Willow

  19. #19
    I guess everyone has there own way of explaining things. Even buddha said don't. Believe me experience your own truth. Throw everything away and what is left. Its right in front of you. You are it. And everything is it. Buddha nature or whatever you want to call it. Hope this didn't sound too zenny.

  20. #20
    Senior Member YuimaSLC's Avatar
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    A few comments in this thread re-minded me of something I was reflecting on earlier today..... For those who have spent a even a little time at a monastery, you probably noted that trainees often go about activities at break-neck speed. Let's call it serenity without a second to spare. I remember a trainee who worked in the yogurt-making room rushing across the temple grounds, running that is, in knee-high rubber boots and apron to get changed in time for midday services. I wondered....what happens if he stumbles and falls flat on his face like Dodgers-legend Maury Wills sliding into second-base.

    Obvious that all monastery adherents have responsibilities of various sorts. You might be in accounting, or one who figures out what is wrong with the back flow of the septic tank.

    We guest lay trainees had it "easy".....there. However, our lives within family, careers, school, transportation, et al give us the opportunity to train at-a-pace that can help keep "self" from "being self".

    I liked that comment about the "self wanting to see it's own funeral". I have certainly had that concept many times. If only this idiot would leave and let serene-reflection reveal....but, it implies
    that some form of self is there to observe the reflection.

    There is also a warning to trainees, and I've heard it a number of times here in the West, about people getting sort-of "slow" or "zombied out" within their activities. One of the implications
    is that the trainee may actually be getting caught up in a self-awareness game where subject-verb-object aren't dropped away, but rather there is a self-validating-quietude of "oh, I am being sooo mindful right now, doing these activities just right. I am trying so hard to do it my best, and so on." It's me, me, me doing this, this, this. So, this "observer" quietly taking-it-all-in with a "there is...." still separates self and other.

    And, I suppose that is what some of these other "mindful" disciplines alluded to in this thread end up doing. It's all about "me" being aware/mindful of observing "this".

    But consider this: You are walking from the kitchen to the dining area with a plate of beautifully-colored drinks that you are proudly delivering to your guests, and your foot catches on the edge of a rug, you lose your balance, the platter and you go crashing about. Resulting in a mess, some embarrassment, and recovery. In that split second moment or two when things are topsy turvy, there is no allowance for consideration of me, or tripping, or glasses spilling. It just "is being". And, it's changing every sub-fraction of that very brief moment, before the ego jumps in with a whole lot
    of conceptual mumbo jumbo about embarrassment, that damn rug, etc.

    I once almost choked on a peanut butter sandwich while in formal mealtime in the meditation hall at a monastic retreat. There was an ego struggling to maintain composure, not wanting to be the outrageous fool who can't seem to eat his food right, but has to make a scene in order not to choke to death. Let's see....... choking? drawing unwanted attention to myself? Hmmmm. Something etched in memory to remind me what ego is capable of doing.

    So, I'm not proposing that one act recklessly to "be real", because that's not a good idea or the solution; but also to say that the flip-side of taking it slow, careful, being precisely mindful about everything is also not hitting the mark; if you find that is what's going on in your training. Can you imagine dancing with that zombie-like mindfulness?

    Gassho

    Richard

  21. #21
    Friend of Treeleaf Myozan Kodo's Avatar
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    Gassho
    Myozan
    Myozan Kodo
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    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.
    "Here the way unfolds."

  22. #22
    Senior Member YuimaSLC's Avatar
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    and then I am reminded by Dogen from Bendowa (The Wholehearted Way) "Buddhist practitioners should know not to argue about the superiority or inferiority of teachings and not to discriminate between superficial or profound dharma, but should only know whether the practice is genuine or false."

  23. #23
    Senior Member Amelia's Avatar
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    I think that the lifestyle Krishnamurti described is very much like Zen practice. Reading his talks help me to better understand practice, unless I am misled.

    I remember reading in Taking the Path of Zen that Aitken Roshi very much wanted to meet Krishnamurti and talk with him because he felt Krishnamurti's philosophy and Zen had a lot in common.

    Quote Originally Posted by willow View Post
    ...Not familiar with Trungpa so checked it out - and found myself watching a discussion between Trungpa and Krishnamurti. Understand these are different traditions with their own flavour of teaching but was struck by something Krishnamurti said - that seems to relate to this thread.

    Basically - the teaching was that there is always disorder within the mind - and that it is only by the observation of disorder that we can apprehend order (a sense of the absolute/unity?). Stillness come naturally when we have order (I'm paraphrasing here). We have to drop the 'me' because it is only the state of absence of 'me' that brings a sense of order.

    Is this teaching the same as body and mind dropped away?

    He also said it was central to ask the question 'Can the mind observe without memory and time?'

    He seemed to be saying that if the above can be experienced we are observing without the 'me' - which I guess is to step beyond discriminating, etc?.

    Anyway - no room for an extra observor, witness, true self, false self, - just emptiness?

    Or am I twisting Krishnamurti to fit Zen?...
    迎 Geika

  24. #24
    Thanks for that Amelia. I watched another discussion and although Krishnamurti forgoes all 'religions' what he says sounds the same as Zen. In some respects he didn't seem to realise that his philosophy mirrors Zen but after reading about his background ( groomed by the Theosophical society to be a world leader/saviour) I can understand his distancing himself from all labelling/doctrines (as a reaction to what had been put upon him).

    His work on education - freeing children to discover their own minds/answers liberated from indoctrination - is inspiring.

    Gassho

    Willow

  25. #25
    Thank you for this teaching. I've added it to my favorites and will no doubt need to return to it from time to time!

    Gassho,
    Mc.

  26. #26
    Senior Member Amelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willow View Post
    Thanks for that Amelia.
    You're welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by willow View Post
    I watched another discussion and although Krishnamurti forgoes all 'religions' what he says sounds the same as Zen.
    I have always felt the same way. In fact, I think I can attribute my discovery of Zen philosophy through reading about Krishnamurti and related subjects.

    Quote Originally Posted by willow View Post
    In some respects he didn't seem to realise that his philosophy mirrors Zen but after reading about his background ( groomed by the Theosophical society to be a world leader/saviour) I can understand his distancing himself from all labelling/doctrines (as a reaction to what had been put upon him).
    I wonder if he knew that his teachings were similar to zen, and simply felt it very important to reject all ties bound up by labels and images. In zen, we also try to live without the duality of your way versus my way, etc, so even though we call it zen, what can be called zen is not zen, right?
    迎 Geika

  27. #27
    Amelia wrote

    I wonder if he knew that his teachings were similar to zen, and simply felt it very important to reject all ties bound up by labels and images. In zen, we also try to live without the duality of your way versus my way, etc, so even though we call it zen, what can be called zen is not zen, right?


    I wonder too Amelia - I don't know enough of his work to be clear on it.

    What really strikes me about Krishnamurti is his fire and passion. He also has a very strong intellect and questions 'everything' in a very precise and disciplined manner. In this respect I feel he is a philosopher above all else.

    Thanks for your feedback - I feel encouraged to read some of his work now

    Gassho

    Willow

  28. #28
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Throw everything...


    People thinking there is something bigger, better, whatever...don t get the teaching


    THROW EVERYTHING AWAY!!!


    gassho



    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  29. #29
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    And,even if you are not happy,that great verbal and eloquent Krishnamurti would be my last choice for anything. When I was a teenager I thpought he was a great master. Now, i would receive teachings from anybody but not that great guy. Too verbal, too holly, too ...

    In front of Trungpa he is but a bundle of beliefs.


    In a dokusan, he is out,before opening his mouth


    Please go and see for yourself. No need to believe the fool I am.

    Gassho


    T.
    Last edited by Taigu; 05-04-2013 at 11:47 AM.
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  30. #30
    For Amelia and Willow, there's always the other Krishnamurti, if Jiddhu displeases. UG's much more of a "throw everything away" type guy. I think one of his phrases was something like "tell them there's nothing to get" or something.

    I don't know. This probably isn't the thread for this, but I find myself watching less and less videos, reading less and less about these things, except for a few small things. Just sitting is also just an idea - I have no idea what it even means anymore, but I do it day after day. I remember when I first began, it was a struggle, then it was beautiful, now I have no idea. Maybe I'm just in an apathetic/sad place. The one thing I've gotten without getting anything is that there are things I do that are particular to me and that I like doing and some of that includes trying to be nice to other people.

    I don't even know what to throw away anymore, which probably means I'm so far from what Dogen calls having the way-seeking mind, like a hawk trying to fly to the moon.

    Anyway, all I meant to say was that these guys are both working from very different traditions than that of zen.
    Shōmon

  31. #31
    UG is no better than Krishnamurti. They both could well be enlightened but they belong to the non-dual school where they say you don't need to practice or do anything and you are already enlightened. Well we may be enlightened already but it takes some practice to realize that. As my previous teacher says, even though the journey is from here to here, there is a distance to be traveled.

    http://www.aypsite.org/348.html

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by shikantazen View Post
    UG is no better than Krishnamurti. They both could well be enlightened but they belong to the non-dual school where they say you don't need to practice or do anything and you are already enlightened. Well we may be enlightened already but it takes some practice to realize that. As my previous teacher says, even though the journey is from here to here, there is a distance to be traveled.

    http://www.aypsite.org/348.html
    Daily practice is key - I think we all feel that and understand that all the words, all the videos, all the 'teachings', all the gurus - (selfmade and created by others whether they want to be a guru or not) are not the essence of practice.

    BUT - perhaps its necessary (for some of us) to go through the process of exploring, considering and then throwing out for ourselves. Maybe we waste a lot of time on the way - but that's a learning process too. Presumably our teachers also studied long and hard - walked down blind alleys and no through roads - learnt to discriminate - and understand at a deep level what it means to 'get rid of everything'.

    Getting rid of everything is part of a personal journey?

    I hope showing an interest in Krishnamurti doesn't necessarily mean I'm grabbing at the next new shiny toy - though I own to an element of that at times.

    I'm just very interested in the historical backdrop .... and I got to all of that through the mention of Trungpa - who I hadn't even heard of

    Gassho

    Willow
    Last edited by willow; 05-05-2013 at 09:00 AM.

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by shikantazen View Post
    UG is no better than Krishnamurti. They both could well be enlightened but they belong to the non-dual school where they say you don't need to practice or do anything and you are already enlightened. Well we may be enlightened already but it takes some practice to realize that. As my previous teacher says, even though the journey is from here to here, there is a distance to be traveled.

    http://www.aypsite.org/348.html
    yeah, I didn't mean to imply that he was better, just different, and also, neither one of them zen, but maybe that didn't come through very well. i don't give two shits about either of them. i don't know; i'm just a little tired/bored with all this "that guy's not a real teacher" thing and in the face of "ZEN GUY 4", etc. it seems a silly dance to dance. i understand the need for people to say things like, hey, we do zen here. i do understand that. and that's what i practice, too (failingly, anyway). but, i digress, and i'm reading the wrong threads maybe.
    Shōmon

  34. #34
    Senior Member Amelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    And,even if you are not happy,that great verbal and eloquent Krishnamurti would be my last choice for anything. When I was a teenager I thpought he was a great master. Now, i would receive teachings from anybody but not that great guy. Too verbal, too holly, too ...

    In front of Trungpa he is but a bundle of beliefs.


    In a dokusan, he is out,before opening his mouth


    Please go and see for yourself. No need to believe the fool I am.

    Gassho


    T.
    You are right: in a dokusan, he would be out before opening his mouth, and it wouldn't be any kind of mondo. He got frustrated by how confused those listening to him felt. If he considered them his students (I don't think he considered himself a teacher, but then why bother to talk so much?) he didn't make his teachings easy on them.

    I have read a lot of Krishnamurti, that is true, but that was before I began practicing Zen. Krishnamurti is a peg in my philosophical knowledge and I sometimes read him when I am bored, like trying to solve a riddle, but I practice here. You told us to throw everything away, Taigu, and I have been chewing that.
    迎 Geika

  35. #35
    Senior Member Matt's Avatar
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    "Once realized, no traces of Buddha, no whiff of awakening. ...Throw everything away"

    Thank you for this teaching.

    Gassho,
    Matt J

  36. #36
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    I guess 'acting' might be the clue? If I'm 'acting' this way or that, then i'm acting rather than being true.

  37. #37
    thank you, taigu. this is exactly what i needed to hear right now. im curious by nature, and the advaita sounds appealing, and i love its teachings. but all in all it remains conceptualized (in me), since i dont practice it, but the concepts are always beautiful to me. and youre right, its teachings seem to be in everything now a days. right now, im full of info. all concepts. no peace.
    gassho,
    justin

  38. #38
    and j. and ug, all theyre good for is stringing you along, as if they know something that you dont, but wont say what it is or how to get it. all the while condemning others for not being like them (seemingly). i used to fry my brain on the crap too..

  39. #39
    Taigu, I just wanted to say how much this post has helped me in the months since you wrote it. I know it was in relation to a specific conversation, but it's been a great help to me in general. I've returned to it almost weekly while at work, whenever some expectation became a resentment, as they tend to do.

    I know I already said it above, but if it was very helpful to me today, and I wanted to say thank you.

    Gassho.
    Mc.

  40. #40
    Senior Member Nindo's Avatar
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    Good to read this again.

  41. #41
    Senior Member Amelia's Avatar
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    I agree that this is an effective teaching. Every once in a while, I hear Taigu saying, "Throw it away."
    迎 Geika

  42. #42
    Senior Member Myosha's Avatar
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    Am going to open a used "abandoned raft" store.

    Floatability not guaranteed.

    Makes great firewood!

    Thank you teacher.


    Gassho,
    Edward
    Last edited by Myosha; 07-20-2013 at 03:00 PM.
    Practice with humility, respect all beings, avoid attachments, give rise to prajña from your own awareness, put an end to delusions - Hui-neng

  43. #43
    Senior Member Joyo's Avatar
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    Thank you very much, Taigu. Just this morning, I was reflecting on how much I've changed, it's as if I do not understand The Way, I cannot even talk about it very eloquently, but it is changing me. I am calmer, and learning to take things in stride, yet even that probably needs to be thrown away, to a certain extent as well. I really appreciate this post!!

    gassho,
    Treena

  44. #44
    Senior Member Nenka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amelia View Post
    Every once in a while, I hear Taigu saying, "Throw it away."
    Me too!

    Gassho

    Jen
    The result is not the point; it is the effort to improve ourselves that is valuable. There is no end to this practice. --Shunryu Suzuki

  45. #45
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Every so often I hear very much the same...
    How come?!!!!

    Please take care and throw everything away even this throwing of everything away...

    Gassho

    T.

  46. #46
    Friend of Treeleaf Taikyo's Avatar
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    Joshu's Zen




    A student once asked Joshua : ‘If I haven't anything in my mind, what shall I do?'
    Joshu replied: ‘Throw it out.'
    'But if I haven't anything how can I throw it out?' continued the questioner.
    'Well,' said Joshu, 'then carry it out.’
    Gassho

    David

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