Tugas Gunadarma Gunadarma Tutorial VB.NET Download OST Anime Soundtrack Anime Opening Anime Ending Anime OST Anime Japan Download Lagu Anime Jepang

Results 1 to 31 of 31

Thread: Labeling thoughts.

  1. #1

    Labeling thoughts.

    It seems that an effective way to disidentify with superfluous thoughts is to label them (admittedly, I have never tried it). For those of you that (just like me) are relatively new to Zen practice (but as Jundo says “we are all beginners”) here is a nice paragraph from the zencenterofportland website (http://zencenterofportland.org/html_...o_sitting.html)

    “One way to work with the thoughts we have is to label them. This helps us to disidentify from them, to start to see them as just thoughts, not necessarily the truth. Labeling helps us to notice our thought patterns and that we take our thoughts for the truth, ("He can't be trusted because he hurt me"). It is a good idea to "label" your thoughts when you notice that you are just thinking ("Thought arising about such-and-such”). Make the label just a one or two word description of the thought, for instance “Thought arising about work,” or “Thought arising about Mary,” or "Thought arising about not doing this practice well." Labeling the thought helps you to step back from the actual thinking, to disengage from the thinking, to not take it for the truth, to see it as just thinking. It helps us to know that we have been thinking and gives us a little space to consider where next to bring our attention. When your mind wanders, bring your attention very gently back to the body, the breath, and sounds, like a butterfly gently coming back to light on the breath. You will do this over and over, bringing your attention to the moment, to the bodily sensations, the breath and the sounds, and labeling you thoughts when you become distracted or caught up in them. When our discursive mind, the Me-mind starts to think and we get caught up in our thinking, our judging, our criticism, our fear, our anger, and desire, we move out of the present moment into a story, a narrative, a movie-like thinking world that usually is set in the past or future. Over time we can notice that we are caught up in this thinking, narrative movie, and then we are able to more and more quickly return to the experiential life. We are also able to remain in the experiential world for longer periods without the Me-mind taking over. Over time we spend more and more time in the experiential realm and not so much in the thinking realm. In other words, we want to be living rather than thinking about our lives.”
    Language has its limitations, especially when it comes to describing concepts like these but isn’t this “noticing” just another thought? This implies discriminating between “good” thoughts and “bad” thoughts, between a small self that “just thinks” and a bigger self that recognize this useless thinking. Is there such a distinction? What do you think? (See? I cannot get away from this word )

    “Labeling the thought helps you to step back from the actual thinking, to disengage from the thinking, to not take it for the truth, to see it as just thinking. It helps us to know that we have been thinking and gives us a little space to consider where next to bring our attention.”
    I love the use of the word SEE here. “Seeing” is a spontaneous recognition of what is, rather than its mental representation.

    “Over time we spend more and more time in the experiential realm and not so much in the thinking realm. In other words, we want to be living rather than thinking about our lives.”
    Beautifully stated! There is still “thinking” in this “experiential realm” but it is more fluid, more grounded in reality, and not initiated by fear, anger and greed. I can SEE that.

    For the longest time questions like these have been bothering me, mostly because there is no amount of reasoning that would provide a decent answer. I had (and partially still do) some sort of an addiction to thinking about thinking. Fortunately, Zazen helped to recognize that the the answer is in the apparent contradiction of the question. Yes, I still over analyze things, yes I am still bothered by thinking at times, but the more I sit the more I SEE where the solution to my problem is not.

    Ahhhhhh…..it feels good to let it out like this. Sorry for the very long post and I would love to hear you comments.

    Gassho, A

  2. #2
    Hi Andrea!

    Labelling thoughts is a common practice in vipassana meditation but I had not heard of it in relation to Zazen. Thoughts come, thoughts go and I would say that noticing is another thought. For a long time I saw my thoughts about meditation (well, more of an ongoing commentary) as a special category that should be listened to but they are just thoughts too. Nothing special.

    The advice here does seem to complicate labelling. Labelling 'Thoughts about Mary' seems quite a specific category! When I have used this in the past I have just said 'thinking' and returned to the breath. When you are meditating on an object such as the breath, I think labelling in this way can be appropriate. For shikantaza, I would say not, but Jundo or Taigu will doubtless give you a more definitive answer!

    With regards to life away from the cushion, I can see that if one is often bothered by thoughts which distract from what you are doing, labelling could be a valuable practice just to say 'thinking' then go back to where attention should be (if you are working, preparing food or whatever). It is certainly a good antidote to daydreaming.

    One last point in relation to thoughts is a story that meditation teacher Jack Kornfield tells of when he was younger. After some time of sitting he proudly told his teacher that he had managed to get rid of all his thoughts. The teacher replied 'And what is wrong with thoughts?'!

    Thanks for posting, Andrea. I imagine it will spark some interesting replies.


    Gassho
    Andy

  3. #3
    I used to think that all my thoughts were very important. So letting them go or putting them down was difficult. Now if some thinking is about an action I need to do and I can't do it right now I'll. Just write down for later.

  4. #4
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,907
    In Zen, in here at least, but also in mst lineages, we never tell people to label thoughts. It is a nice practice, very helpful in other traditions but has a few problems:

    In doing so one gives thoughts too much importance, when a thought is just noticed, come back to your sitting.

    Unless you are planning to keep a mental diary of your thinking activity, which is thinking agin by the way, don t start.

    One should not be bothered by thinking, or we have all to be ready to be bothered for ever because thinking never stops. Rather we learn to get a broader perspective, instead of burning thoughts through an intense mental gaze, we walk backwards, take a broader view and learn to see any thought like part of the field of being, as a cloud is part of the deep blue sky. Allow the natural play of clouds ( thoughts) and mountain (sitting).

    Gassho

    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  5. #5
    Hi,

    I agree with my Brother Taigu. But I usually say it this way ...

    We do emphasize some awareness and mindfulness of our thoughts and emotions ... but not during the time of seated Zazen. Our Zazen is the radical non-doing of Shikantaza, and awareness of the "mind theatre" and tricks and games of the human mind is something primarily "off the cushion".

    Being "mindful" of the "mind theatre" running constantly in our heads (developing the ability to identify the thoughts and emotions that play through our heads, and how they create our experience of "reality" ... e.g., "now I am temporarily sad" "now I am reacting with anger") is important and basic to most schools of Buddhism. In our way of Shikantaza, on and off the cushion, we emphasize seeing through and letting thoughts (specially harmful thoughts) go.

    I do not know about formal "labeling", but some awareness in life of the games of the "mind theatre" is important although, again, we tend to do so "off the cushion" and not as part of Zazen "on the cushion" (as in Vipassana meditation). Have a look at our recommended "Nurturing Seeds" Practice ...

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...Seeds-PRACTICE

    I believe that Joko Beck and her students, many of whom are practicing Western psychologists of one kind or another, have been sometimes influenced by Vipassana Practice.

    But more than "labeling", the allowing, releasing and clarity of thinking-non-thinking of Shikantaza is our way here in our Practice. As Taigu said ...

    we walk backwards, take a broader view and learn to see any thought like part of the field of being, as a cloud is part of the deep blue sky. Allow the natural play of clouds ( thoughts) and mountain (sitting).

    Gassho, Jundo
    Last edited by Jundo; 04-28-2013 at 06:05 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  6. #6
    I'm an not and expert on this, but there is one thing important about the traditions who use "labeling" of the thoughts : the goal with that (labeling thoughts) is not the labeling itself (from what I have read). You label the thoughts when they arise and then go back tho your usual meditation practice (mantra for example).

    Here is a link to a Buddhist tradition website that use labeling if you are interested.

    http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/a...w-to-meditate/

    P.S. Please excuse the mistakes I (may) have made, English is not my first language.
    Last edited by Patrick; 04-28-2013 at 03:41 AM.
    Patrick__________________________
    Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien. -Voltaire
    The better is the enemy of the good. -Voltaire

  7. #7
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,907
    The labeling of thoughts has a sole purpose: to stop the identification process and therefore come back to the actual practice. Both Jundo and I are aware of this. You are invited to read our posts carefully and study further the first version of Fukanzazengi, when a thought arises, wake up to it and it will vanish. No labeling needed.
    And your English is as good as mine tetsugakucha.
    Gassho


    Taigu
    Last edited by Taigu; 04-28-2013 at 05:13 AM.
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by tetsugakucha View Post
    Here is a link to a Buddhist tradition website that use labeling if you are interested.

    http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/a...w-to-meditate/
    Yes, the link pointed to is by a Theravadan Teacher and, though a wonderful Tradition, a bit different from the way practiced here and Shikantaza.

    Let's say that some awareness of the mind's tricks and show is important in any Buddhist Tradition, but we do not engage typically in active labeling practice.

    Gassho, Jundo
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    Allow the natural play of clouds ( thoughts) and mountain (sitting).
    I really like this statement ... Thank you Taigu and Jundo for your clear presentation.

    Gassho
    Shingen
    倫道 真現

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  10. #10
    Yes, we "just sit" ... we let thoughts go without analysis during Zazen. There is nothing to do or attain in the sitting, nothing to examine or focus upon ... and that non-doing and non-examining is VITAL and SACRED. Even during our busy day, when annoyances or resistance, anger or upset come into mind, we can turn to a bit of "standing Shikantaza" ... just release them, let them go, do not become trapped.

    However, "vipassana" (in the meaning of insight into the human mind theatre) is also vital in about every corner of Buddhism, Zen included. For example, "thought awareness" as thoughts and emotions arise during our busy day ... when tired, hot, a little angry, happy, etc. ... is a wonderful practice. I also advocate a practice of being aware of the different thoughts that come into mind, just not --during-- Zazen itself (when we are not to be adding anything). This awareness is, however, a very important part of learning to observe our mind's workings and tricks. So, for example, instead of just feeling angry, greedy or tired, and instead of just saying to ourselves merely "I am feeling angry/greedy/tired now", we should learn to say to ourselves such things as "this is my mind now temporarily feeling angry/greedy/tired during present conditions ... I can feel it arising, I can feel it developing, I can feel it passing away, I can let it go". When we learn to do that, experiencing the emotions of the mind becomes just watching a bit of theatre.

    All that is good, just not a practice for "during" Zazen, when we observe everything and nothing in particular.

    Here is more that I wrote on the topic ...

    Buddhist Practice is usually described as flying upon the twin wings of Samatha (calming thoughts and emotions, illuminating and dropping body-mind) and awareness and understanding of vipassana (insight and awareness primarily into the nature and workings of 'self' and mental functions). That is true in Zen practice no less than most other forms of Buddhist practice.

    In a nutshell, Vipassana might be described as insights and awareness, based on Buddhist psychology, as to how the mind works and plays it games. It is an understanding of the Skandhas (form, sensation, perception, mental formation, consciousness ... those words always sung in the Heart Sutra), how our thoughts and emotional reactions arise, how we label and divide the world. We should also understand the Buddha's ideas about how suffering arises within us, which is intimately tied to all that.

    However, unlike some schools of Buddhism, in Shikantaza we do not pursue any particular practices --during-- Zazen itself in order to cultivate such vipassana insight ... and much insight naturally arises from Zazen as "Zazen does its thing". Perhaps we might say that, just in "just sitting" Shikantaza ... dropping thoughts of this and that, thus quieting the mind's "mind games" ... we develop a natural sensitivity and understanding of the mind's "mind games" (much like one first comes to really appreciate what "urban noise" is when one first drives out of the city to the middle of the desert or some other truly quiet place).

    Off the cushion too, we can learn to bring Shikantaza out into the world, learning to release thoughts and emotions which arise without being trapped by them.

    And, apart from "on the Zafu" sitting times, it is also good to develop some insight and insight into the "mind's games", and come to identify the workings of the Skandhas and such within us day to day.

    For example, if you feel an angry or jealous thought arising within you during your day, it is very helpful to identify that as a "bit of temporary mind theatre" and "just the self judging and conflicting with another perceived self". That gives us some distance from the passing emotion, and we no longer see the emotion as quite as inevitable and "true" as we might have before.

    For example, in the case of anger ... We need to develop a sensitivity to how anger arises within us, the triggers which tend to set it off, the first feeling of it starting to arise and the cycle it follows until vanishing. We need to catch ourself more and develop the ability to say, "I am feeling the emotion of anger now, but it is only the mind created theater which is present in this moment ... it need not be so." We need to see it as a story the self writes for itself, "catch it" and thus not be "sucked in" and fooled as much. (Most people who feel anger do not realize it is just a mind created bit of theater which can be replaced by something else ... it is not the way things "have to be". E.g., most people think, when they become upset, that they have "reason to be upset, and it is true and justified", not an optional response to the circumstances). That realization and understanding of how our inner theater works is a step to developing the ability to "rewrite and change the story" at will.

    So, yes, "samatha/vipassana" are both important.
    Again, here is a practice called Nurturing Seeds, related to all this and inspired by some of the writings of Thich Nhat Hahn, which we encourage around here.

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...Seeds-PRACTICE

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  11. #11
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Mexico
    Posts
    3,109
    Thank you for all the wisdom in this thread.

    I used labeling for many years before arriving to Zen. They work wonderfully, but now all I do is to be aware when I'm clinging to a thought. It's especially hard when I start my sittings. The mind is so full of chatter and ideas! But slowly it calms down and then there's nothing there.

    When I realize I'm lost in a thought, I just let go and return to the empty space. Not sure how to explain that

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

  12. #12
    Hello everyone,

    my purely personal two cents are that labelling thoughts can be a good way to start a general meditation practise, in the same way as counting the breath. In the long run however the problem is that labelling a thought actually creates a distance between what you perveive as "you" and the thoughts you are labelling. So instead of opening up to the totality of experience in a non-judgmental way (and yes, that is a lifelong practise), one is in danger of cultivating a very perceptive form of dualism. So lookng at the overall flavour of our Shikantaza tradition it makes little sense IMHO to stick to labelling thoughts.

    But hey, the universe is a big place

    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen
    Chudo Mongen, Ordained Novice Priest-in-Training

  13. #13
    Senior Member Nengyo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    South Georgia
    Posts
    634
    Allow the natural play of clouds ( thoughts) and mountain (sitting).
    Quote Originally Posted by Shingen View Post
    I really like this statement ... Thank you Taigu and Jundo for your clear presentation.

    Gassho
    Shingen
    You beat me to the punch Shingen! I was going to post almost the same thing. That statement resonates well with my practice... even though I'm not a very tall mountain and there are always seems to be bunches of clouds
    Try not to be a jerk-- one of the Buddhas

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    Hello everyone,

    my purely personal two cents are that labelling thoughts can be a good way to start a general meditation practise, in the same way as counting the breath. In the long run however the problem is that labelling a thought actually creates a distance between what you perveive as "you" and the thoughts you are labelling. So instead of opening up to the totality of experience in a non-judgmental way (and yes, that is a lifelong practise), one is in danger of cultivating a very perceptive form of dualism. So lookng at the overall flavour of our Shikantaza tradition it makes little sense IMHO to stick to labelling thoughts.
    Hi Hans,

    I might disagree a bit, and say that this is not the case for such Practices in a Theravadan context, where the labeling and mindfulness is ultimately meant to transcend the illusion and deceptions of selfness. So, the point of the practice is to get beyond the "you" and dualism.

    And seeing through the self and the "you" is at the heart of Shikantaza too!

    It is simply that they are rather different methods.

    This is one of those times when I say that Karate is a powerful Marital Art, and Judo is a Powerful Art ... and some places may mix a bit of Judo and Karate (Jurate?) ... but ultimately I think that Karate or Judo should stand on their own and best should not be mixed ...

    ... and so, here in this Dojo, we practice Karate and not Judo.

    Gassho, Jundo (not "Judo")
    Last edited by Jundo; 04-28-2013 at 03:56 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  15. #15
    yuttadhammo is awesome. ive learned a lot from him. I still watch his youtube series on the dhammapada, where he goes through each verse in pali and then in English, tells the story that goes along with it, and then breaks it down from his perspective. pretty cool stuff. gassho, Justin.

  16. #16
    Thank you all for your comments and to Jundo and Taigu for clarifying some of the important points about practice. I took a look at the recommended "Nurturing Seeds" Practice link and found it very inspiring in its simplicity. I do not have many problems handling (or not handling) my thoughts during Zazen...they are here...I am here too...that's it. However, "off the cushion" it is a different story and, from time to time, I am still bothered by the apparent contradiction between the actual thought and the "I" that recognizes that thought. I believe that other people not necessarily associated with Zen Buddhism (e.g. Ekart Tolle?) proposed a distinction between thought/thinking and and "observer" of that though/thinking, where the "observer" is much closer to the actual "me". In my opinion this seems to be a decent example, a good pointer to what actually is and cannot be expressed by words.

    Any thoughts? eheheh

    Gassho, A
    Last edited by Andrea1974; 04-29-2013 at 05:52 PM.

  17. #17
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,907
    The observer...no. Not even close. There is nobody left. Nobody to see or know. Tolle caught the tail of the ox and turned it into a sceptre. Not even good enough to get rid of flies. Good to make money. But that s not shinjin , body and mind dropped away.

    As Trungpa puts it, and I said this already, the ego wants to see its own funeral. But it cannot. No witness in Buddha land, no Buddha to see or being seen. Eyes cannot see themselves. Once realized, no traces of Buddha, no whiff of awakening.

    The stench of : now I see is but a toy in ignorant hands.

    Throw everything away.

    Gassho


    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  18. #18
    Taigu,

    I have not understood a word you have said...yet, it makes so much sense!
    Can the observer I was referring to in my previous post more appropriately be replaced by the word "awareness"?
    Now wonder Zen masters point their finger to the moon. It is so difficult to talk (write) about "IT".

    Gassho, A
    Last edited by Andrea1974; 04-30-2013 at 05:01 AM.

  19. #19
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,907
    The moon reality is unbroken, it could be called I-eye-finger-moon. So , nothing is pointing. Or we could say it is self-pointing-pointed-moonlight.

    Anyway, awareness is closer.

    Gassho


    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  20. #20
    Many thanks, Taigu!


    Reminds me again of the first verse of the Tao te ching:
    "The tao that can be told
    is not the eternal Tao
    The name that can be named
    is not the eternal Name.

    The unnamable is the eternally real.
    Naming is the origin
    of all particular things."

    Gassho,

    Timo
    no thing needs to be added

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrea1974 View Post
    I believe that other people not necessarily associated with Zen Buddhism (e.g. Ekart Tolle?) proposed a distinction between thought/thinking and and "observer" of that though/thinking, where the "observer" is much closer to the actual "me".
    Yes, as Taigu re-Minds us, Master Dogen's take was endlessly richer than so. Let me try to explain in my own feeble way.

    I usually say that the delusion of life is sometimes to be caught up in the comedy and tragedy of a film (this life) without realizing it is so. We see all kinds of scenes play out, our drama, other characters who are apart from (and often in conflict with) "me", and take it as something which is (sometimes happily, sometimes horribly) real. That is "ignorance".

    Now, some folks (in various schools of Eastern Philosophy, even of Zen) seem to say that the point of this enterprise is to strip everything down to the "watcher" of the fake film because what is being watched is a fiction, and they call that "the real you" or some such name. It is very much like turning off the projector, and turning on the theater lights, leaving just a blank empty screen.

    In Master Dogen's view, doing so kills the show!

    Rather, Dogen's view was more a wondrous view of the Totality of viewer-story-screen-characters-truthfiction-beginning-end-light-drama-comedy-tears-seats-popcorn as One Bright Pearl, the whole Real-Unreal-Real Again performance ... a dream within a dream so dreamy that we best dream on! ... a reality transcending "real" or "fiction" and thus As Real As Real Can Be.

    Perhaps one of the most poetic descriptions of this by Dogen was his vision of how the Moon (usually taken as a symbol of "Enlightenment" in Buddhism) actually is found and given life in all the big and small pieces of this world, here all the tiny droplets or vast pools where reflected (Genjo Koan) ...

    Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water.
    Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.

    Or Mujo Seppo (On a Dream Within A Dream)

    Because this wheel of Dharma is the ten directions and eight aspects themselves, the great ocean, Sumeru, national lands, and all dharmas are realized here and now. This [realization] is the “preaching of the dream-state in the dream-state” that is prior to all dreams. The pervasive disclosure of the entire universe is the dream-state. This dream-state is just “the clear-clear hundred things” [all things] —and it is the very moment in which we doubt that it is so; it is the very moment of confusion. At this moment, it is to dream things, it is to be in things, it is to preach things, and so on. When we learn this in practice, roots and stalks, twigs and leaves, flowers and fruit, and light and color [everything] are all the great dreamstate, which is not to be confused with dreaminess. Yet people who prefer not to learn the Buddha’s truth, when they encounter this “preaching a dream in a dream,” idly suppose that it might mean creating insubstantial dreamy things which do not exist at all; they suppose it might be like adding to delusion in delusion. [But] it is not so. Even when we are adding to delusion in delusion, we should endeavor just then to learn in practice the path of clarity of expression on which the words “delusion upon delusion” are naturally spoken. “Preaching the dream-state in the dream-state” is the buddhas, and the buddhas are wind, rain, water, and fire.
    ...
    The dream state and the waking state are each real form; they are beyond greater and smaller and beyond superior and inferior. ... The dream state and the waking state originally are oneness, and are real form. The Buddha-Dharma may be a metaphor and at the same time real form.
    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 05-02-2013 at 05:12 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  22. #22
    Here is a link from my previous tradition (not Zen) where the teacher answers a similar question about Witness state

    http://www.aypsite.org/122.html

  23. #23
    Now, some folks (in various schools of Eastern Philosophy, even of Zen) seem to say that the point of this enterprise is to strip everything down to the "watcher" of the fake film who is watching while realizing that all being watched is a fiction, and they call that "the real you" or some such name. It is very much like turning off the projector, and turning on the theater lights, leaving just a blank empty screen.

    In Master Dogen's view, doing so kills the show!
    I have in the past read instruction on focussing on the witness and found it to be unhelpful as there is still very much the feeling of self and other. Sometimes, in fact, more so than in normal experience. In contrast, just sitting with (or in) experience allows the witness to fall away and it feels like a much more expansive state without a point of reference.

    Is it as simple as being focussed on experience rather than the experiencer?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by shikantazen View Post
    Here is a link from my previous tradition (not Zen) where the teacher answers a similar question about Witness state

    http://www.aypsite.org/122.html
    Yes, that is a Yogic Practice seeking after some unusual state, a "Pure Bliss Consciousness". If you would like to have a "Pure Bliss Consciousness", you should perhaps listen to that Teacher. To me, it is a kind of Opium.

    Our way is the "Pure This Consciousness" ... the Bliss of that which is sometimes purely blissful and sometimes purely not. A Happy So Happy, that it not does need even to be "happy" all the time, and is Happy to be sometimes broken hearted and sometimes tickled pink.

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  25. #25
    My grandmother died 2 weeks ago and it didn't bother me at all. I must have been the only one in the funeral smiling or trying not to smile most of the time. My cat whom is everything to me.. my best friend.. my companion.. my love.. I think is going to die or is dieing slowly and I am just not bothered by this.
    That sounds a lot like the so-called "Zen Sickness" to me to be honest.
    IMHO there is a difference between not being attached and being totally detached.
    But I may be wrong...

    Gassho,

    Timo
    no thing needs to be added

  26. #26
    Thank you Jundo and Taigu for your clarification. I am truly happy to have found this Sangha!
    The moon reality is unbroken, it could be called I-eye-finger-moon. So, nothing is pointing. Or we could say it is self-pointing-pointed-moonlight. Anyway, awareness is closer.
    So…if the "I" that recognizes that thought is closer to “awareness”, what happens to that “me” when I am asleep? Just to give you an idea of how my mind takes me on rides that have no end. I am not bothered by these questions as much as I used to…but still sometimes I wonder.

    Gassho, A
    Last edited by Andrea1974; 04-30-2013 at 08:03 PM.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrea1974 View Post
    Thanks you Jundo and Taigu for your clarification. I am truly happy to have found this Sangha!

    So…if the "I" that recognizes that thought is closer to “awareness”, what happens to that “me” when I am asleep? Just to give you an idea of how my mind takes me on rides that have no end. I am not bothered by these questions as much as I used to…but still sometimes I wonder.

    Gassho, A
    Amswer:


    ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


    Gassho, Jundo
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrea1974 View Post
    Thanks you Jundo and Taigu for your clarification. I am truly happy to have found this Sangha!

    So…if the "I" that recognizes that thought is closer to “awareness”, what happens to that “me” when I am asleep? Just to give you an idea of how my mind takes me on rides that have no end. I am not bothered by these questions as much as I used to…but still sometimes I wonder.

    Gassho, A
    The awareness is still there even when you are asleep. It doesn't get noticed thats all. Lucid dreaming is one proof that we can be aware even when asleep

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Amswer:


    ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


    Gassho, Jundo
    Let me explain this a little more clearly for you and Sam.

    Sometimes in Zen Practice, we drop certain questions because the very asking makes the problem. It is rather like asking "how many angels can rest on the head of a pin?" or "how many flying blue horses can fit in a barn?" or "will the red dress or the blue dress make me happy?"

    Sometimes in Zen Practice, we drop certain questions because, though perhaps a question with an answer, it is irrelevant to Zen Practice. An example would be "which team won the 1949 World Series?" or "what is the right way to brush your teeth?". There may be an answer, but it does not pertain to our enterprise here and merely distracts.

    Sometimes in Zen Practice, we drop certain questions because nobody can know for sure (and anyway, it is always still irrelevant to our Practice).

    The Buddha sometimes gave examples in the old Suttas such as whether the cosmos is eternal or not eternal, finite or infinite, both or neither?" and whether 'the soul & the body are the same?" or "after death does a Tathagata exist or not exist?". He said ...

    "It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends ... provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a brahman, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored... until I know his home village, town, or city... until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow... until I know whether the bowstring with which I was wounded was fiber, bamboo threads, sinew, hemp, or bark... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was wild or cultivated... until I know whether the feathers of the shaft with which I was wounded were those of a vulture, a stork, a hawk, a peacock, or another bird... ... The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him. ...

    "So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared. ... And why are they undeclared by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are undeclared by me.
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....063.than.html
    .

    I am not sure which your question is (I might go with the first kind), but we put the question to sleep, give the question a rest.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 05-01-2013 at 02:41 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  30. #30
    That makes sense Jundo. I have seen Zen teachers skip some of my questions and never understood why

  31. #31
    Thanks for the clarification Jundo. The reason why I said that "I am not bothered by these questions as much as I used to" is that I started focusing more on the question itself rather than on the answer. But sometimes there is a fine line between analyzing a problem......and getting lost in it.

    Gassho, A

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •