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Thread: SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: The BEST Zen is SO DISAPPOINTING!

  1. #1

    SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: The BEST Zen is SO DISAPPOINTING!

    THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ZEN TALK YOU WILL EVER HEAR, though pretty mediocre and quite forgettable. It will save Zen Students endless tail chasing and dead-ends, disappointments and wasted days ... by pointing out that tail chasing is arriving, wasted days are timeless. It will allow every Sitting to be Magnificent ... both the Sittings which are magnificent and those which are anything but. One will never be let down by one's Zen's Practice again ... nor by one's life, family and friends, nor this whole world ... both when fulfilling your every dream and when falling far short of expectations.

    In an old Koan from the Book of Serenity (Ganto's Bow and Shout) a Zen student of too little experience but too much self conceit (as is true of so many modern Zen Students) shows up at the doorway of a Sangha. He demands, full of opinions, "Is this place sacred or just common? Is it what I think I want from the Zen I picture? Is it 'real Zen' or just fake Zen, and are the Teachers enlightened as I want 'enlightened' to look and seem?"

    The Teacher in the Koan then demonstrates Dharma with a KATZU! Shout ... perhaps a GREAT Wordless Teaching or perhaps just a hackneyed cliche clunker. The student, moved, may decide to stay. Or, judgmental and dreaming, filled with golden expectations, the same Zen Student may feel disappointed with the Teachings offered (compared to how he thinks they "should" sound ... even if he is not quite sure how that is.). He leaves ... either right away or after some time ... thinking "there is no True Dharma here." He may judge based on having read too many Zen story books, where all the characters of the past have been cleaned up and dipped in gold (Although please read some of the old books such as the Vinaya, and you will find what a frustrating mess, with folks bumping noses, was Sangha even in the Buddha's day ). In either case, the foolish student fails to hear the TRUE SHOUT! ... the Great Wordless Teaching found both in the inspiring moment and the hack and cliche'd klunk.

    The student fails to realize that the Best Zen Sangha may be that which is sometimes inspiring and sometimes discouraging, and the Best Buddhist Teachers and Friends those who are frequently uplifting and sometimes frustrating and mostly in between ... the ones who sometimes meet your ideals, but sometimes don't.

    For what the Zen Student must find is Such which is Common-Holy, Specially Unspecial, fulfilling all desires ... both with what is wanted and what is not. The student most find freedom from the small human self ... filled with aversions and attractions, dreams and feelings of incompleteness and lack (the "I" in "I'm disappointed"). Can one know the Real that sweeps in and sweeps through 'real' or 'fake'? Can the Great Teaching be heard that shouts at the Unbreakable Heart of both the sparkling talks or thrilling moments and the dull or dumb, the Timeless both in the 'time well spent' and so-called 'waste of time'? Can one experience the Wholly Holy Whole, which fills all the high mountains climbed and barren holes one falls in. Can one find that True Way from which there is no way to "go away"? Even the frauds and fake Teachers, even the Teachers with weaknesses and failings, even the the greatest abusers and predators are Teaching to those with a Buddha's Eye to see.

    Is this a clarion call to complacency and mediocrity, acceptance of the ugly without attempt at repair? FAR FROM IT! Yet there are two kinds of Sangha or Teacher that, I feel, do a disservice to students. One is a place or person that is too lax, too careless, which fails to provide beneficial opportunities for Practice, or (in some fortunately very VERY few cases) where real abuse and other bad acts occur. But, counter-intuitive as it may seem, a Sangha or Teacher which meets all the student's expectations, golden dreams, ideals and desires too would be a disservice (not to mention unlikely to ever truly appear, at least for the long haul when the rose colored honeymoon is done. It would be as misleading as the world of 'Gods' in the Six Realms, where all is given that is desired). Why? Because as with all of this life, all this world, one must come to see through personal judgments of both "sacred" and "ordinary", good and bad, flashy or dull, entertaining or painful, satisfying and disatisfying, true vs. fake ... thus to find a Truth beyond selfish expectations, disappointments, dreams, ideals and failings to meet a mark, thus to find the Mark Always Met. The best Teacher or Community, as strange as it sounds, may be one that ... like the universe ... sometimes inspires and sometimes frustrates, sometimes energizes and sometimes bores, sometimes astounds and sometimes leaves cold ... all so that one might find Astounding Energetic Inspiration even right at the heart of the frustratingly dull or unbearably cold.

    This is not a call for complacency, resignation or merely "putting up with" ... but a call to PIERCE RIGHT THROUGH!

    Our Treeleaf Sangha is a wonderfully imperfect place, often beautiful and often filled with small frictions. Our Teachers here are well-meaning but mediocre clods and fools. Yet This Place, This Dharma, This Buddha, sits beyond all human weighing and rating.

    Here is a talk by me, the Best Zen Talk You Will Ever Hear, yet just middling and unspecial. Is it worth the time? Is it a waste of time?

    ........................... 'Tis Timeless whether worth or waste.

    Last edited by Jundo; 06-21-2013 at 01:33 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  2. #2
    Treeleaf Engineer Seimyo's Avatar
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    Thank you Jundo.

    Gassho.
    Seimyo

    明 Seimyō (Christhatischris)

  3. #3
    Thank you Jundo.


    Gassho
    Kia

  4. #4
    Thank you Jundo ... I was beautifully disappointed.

    Gassho
    Shingen
    倫道 真現

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  5. #5
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    That was a piece of pure garbage that is smelly, ugly, and rotten to the core.

    Best talk ever.

    Gassho,
    Dosho
    Shudo Dosho - Ordained Priest-in-Training
    With your help and guidance from Jundo & Taigu
    I am learning, but please take what I say with a
    grain of salt, especially in matters of the Dharma.

  6. #6
    Thank you Jundo!

    Gassho,
    Santosh.

  7. #7
    Friend of Treeleaf Myozan Kodo's Avatar
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    Nail hit on head. Bang!
    Thanks Jundo.
    Gassho
    Myozan
    Myozan Kodo
    Ordained Soto Zen Priest in Training
    Dublin, Ireland

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.
    "Here the way unfolds."

  8. #8
    Senior Member Heisoku's Avatar
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    Thank you Jundo.
    Gassho
    Heisoku
    平 息

  9. #9
    Gassho, Daizan
    大山

  10. #10
    perfect!
    Also nice to hear that little voice and thumping feet too

    Gassho
    Shohei

  11. #11
    Senior Member Jakudo's Avatar
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    An important teaching, Thank you Jundo.
    Gassho, Jakudo.
    Gassho, Shawn Jakudo Hinton
    It all begins when we say, I. Everything that follows is illusion.
    "Even to speak the word Buddha is dragging in the mud soaking wet; Even to say the word Zen is a total embarrassment."
    寂道

  12. #12
    Senior Member Koshin's Avatar
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    Yeah what a good talk



    Gassho
    ______________________________
    Kōshin / Leo



    P.S. Yup, I know, my English sucks

  13. #13
    Treeleaf Unsui Yugen's Avatar
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    I'm just so very bummed out.... all this time spent staring at wall .... for nothing! My bubble has been burst!

    Thank you Jundo! Thank you all for being here! The concept of good friends in practice, and a teacher as a spiritual friend... is a critical one. I started with many misconceptions..... am still working with them...

    Deep bows
    Yugen
    Last edited by Yugen; 01-19-2013 at 04:21 PM.
    Treeleaf Sangha Shuso Ango Head October 2014
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    Please take all my comments with a grain of salt - I am a novice priest and anything I say is to be taken with a good dose of skepticism - Shodo Yugen

  14. #14
    Senior Member Shawn's Avatar
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    Thank you

    Gassho

    Shawn

  15. #15
    Friend of Treeleaf Daido's Avatar
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    Sun face Buddha. Moon face Buddha.

    Katzu and Gassho

    Daido
    Jiken Daido - Unsui at Treeleaf's Brother Sangha, the Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage.

    Do not just accept what I say. Decide for yourself if it rings true for you

  16. #16
    Senior Member Genshin's Avatar
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    Thank you Jundo.

    Gassho,
    Matt

  17. #17
    Treeleaf Unsui Shokai's Avatar
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    Thank you Jundo.

    gassho, Shokai
    gassho, Shokai, still learning the way and knowing nothing
    仁道 生開 - Jindo Shokai "Open to life in a benevolent way"
    Just another itinerant monk; go somewhere else to listen to someone who really knows.

  18. #18
    Senior Member YuimaSLC's Avatar
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    Monju Bosatsu holds a sword in the right hand.....to cut through the ordinary and the sublime.
    And the cushion bows when I bow.


    Gassho

    Richard

  19. #19
    If I wasn't disappointed in one way or another I would never stumble on this practice, this Sangha and this talk. Disappointment is what got me here
    Gassho,
    Andy

  20. #20
    Ha! You hit the barn then painted a bull"s eye around the arrow!
    Wise!
    Gassho.
    "Know that the practice of zazen is the complete path of buddha-dharma and nothing can be compared to it....it is not the practice of one or two buddhas but all the buddha ancestors practice this way."
    Dogen zenji in Bendowa






  21. #21
    Thanks, Jundo! Gassho, jeff

  22. #22
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
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    Thank you, Jundo.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

  23. #23
    Junior Member jayjay's Avatar
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    Jundo

    The most worthwhile waste of time - Thank you

    Gassho

    jayjay

  24. #24
    Senior Member Nengyo's Avatar
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    Thank you Jundo. Another important life lesson/teaching/waste of time
    Try not to be a jerk-- one of the Buddhas

  25. #25
    "Life is disappointing" Why is that the hardest lesson to remember?
    "Know that the practice of zazen is the complete path of buddha-dharma and nothing can be compared to it....it is not the practice of one or two buddhas but all the buddha ancestors practice this way."
    Dogen zenji in Bendowa






  26. #26
    Senior Member Matt's Avatar
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    Thank you for this. Very helpful. Gassho, Matt

  27. #27
    Thank you Jundo.
    Perhaps there is no way or need to avoid disappointments. Even if it is not a pleasant emotion....

    Gassho
    Bianca / Shinka

  28. #28
    Great Jundo.

    It has a similar taste with Taigu Video "no expectation", this idea of non jugement, something like that.I fell it like this

    Gassho
    Myoshin 妙 心
    "A person who receives the Buddhist Precepts enters the state of Buddha at once. They stand at the same level as Gautama Buddha. We can say they are a child of the Buddha." Jundo

  29. #29
    The Precepts mark the path. Disappointments will surely come; having a practice and keeping precepts blances the inmpact, at seeing dukha coming you reset to breath, regret is minimized, then it happens again.
    The Preceps let you see regrets have no solidity, no need to add "a head over the head."
    "Know that the practice of zazen is the complete path of buddha-dharma and nothing can be compared to it....it is not the practice of one or two buddhas but all the buddha ancestors practice this way."
    Dogen zenji in Bendowa






  30. #30
    Thank you Jundo. I have a hard time with disappointment which is what lead me to this practice. I want what I want so much, that anything else really hurts in a way; sometimes it can be crippling. I want success in my work for example and when something doesn't function as expected it just drives me nuts. It discourages me, I sometimes ask why am I doing this. Sometimes I wish that I didn't have the disappointment, but that is just running. Sitting really helps me face this and sometimes taste that freedom beyond satisfaction and disappointment in just allowing it to be. Facing it, being with it, is the only way I've found to be able to not cling to that so much. It is such a hard lesson that I am reminded of time and time again.

    Another thing I think about is the vow to save all beings. Surely, I'm not the only one who feels this disappointment, and if I can sit through it and face it instead of grasping at distractions or running away that is a way to save all sentient beings. That is a way to teach others by showing a way out of suffering, not by grasping or trying to ignore it. I really feel that you and Taigu do that wholeheartedly and really give me something to feel inspired about when I feel that disappointment. That is truly a great gift.

    Gassho,

    Risho
    Last edited by Risho; 01-27-2013 at 06:33 PM.

  31. #31
    Hi Risho,

    Here is a tumbnail definition of "Dukkha", the disease (or better, "dis-ease") for which Buddha offered a treatment and cure.

    ----------------

    So, what’s “Dukkha”? …and what does Dukkha do?

    No one English word captures the full depth and range of the Pali term, Dukkha. It is sometimes rendered as “suffering,” as in “life is suffering.” But perhaps it’s better expressed as “dissatisfaction,” “anxiety,” “disappointment,” “unease at perfection,” or “frustration” — terms that wonderfully convey a subtlety of meaning.

    In a nutshell, your “self” wishes this world to be X, yet this world is not X. The mental state that may result to the “self” from this disparity is Dukkha.
    .
    Shakyamuni Buddha gave many examples: sickness (when we do not wish to be sick), old age (when we long for youth), death (if we cling to life), loss of a loved one (as we cannot let go), violated expectations, the failure of happy moments to last (though we wish them to last). Even joyous moments — such as happiness and good news, treasure or pleasant times — can be a source of suffering if we cling to them, if we are attached to those things.

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...y-Dooby-Dukkha
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-28-2013 at 01:13 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  32. #32
    Hello,

    It reminds me when Dogen said that we feel alone only because of the illusion of a self, when we see that we are the 5 agregats and have no self, dukka vanishes. Something like that, I read it in in "Zen mind, beginner mind".

    Gassho
    Myoshin 妙 心
    "A person who receives the Buddhist Precepts enters the state of Buddha at once. They stand at the same level as Gautama Buddha. We can say they are a child of the Buddha." Jundo

  33. #33
    Treeleaf Unsui rculver's Avatar
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    Thank you.


    Shugen
    As a priest in training, please take everything I say with a pinch of salt

    Meido Shugen
    明道 修眼

  34. #34
    Thank you very much!!

    Gassho.

    Gene

  35. #35
    Thank you for pointing me here, Jundo. As you know, ... well, you know...

    Gassho,
    Dainin

  36. #36
    Senior Member Myosha's Avatar
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    NOT disappointing!?! Well. . .THAT would be disappointing.^^

    Gassho,
    Edward

  37. #37
    Sometimes I want to see a big golden buddha flying through the clouds...so, I sit...and this nonsense disappears...is this dangerous, doctor?


    Gassho.

  38. #38
    Sometimes I sit, not wanting anything at all, beyond all fear of danger ... and a golden flying Buddha appears.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Sometimes I sit, not wanting anything at all, beyond all fear of danger ... and a golden flying Buddha appears.

    Gassho.

  40. #40
    Senior Member Clark's Avatar
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    Isn't it ironic how the letting go of wanting something special, is so profoundly special. I just posted this especially for.... who?

    Gassho
    C

  41. #41
    Wonderful! It is in presicely in simplicity that we trully find the depth of wisdom.

  42. #42
    Senior Member Bobby's Avatar
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    Gassho,
    Bobby

  43. #43
    Thank you Jundo. This is a great teaching.

    The best Teacher or Community, as strange as it sounds, may be one that ... like the universe ... sometimes inspires and sometimes frustrates, sometimes energizes and sometimes bores, sometimes astounds and sometimes leaves cold ... all so that one might find Astounding Energetic Inspiration even right at the heart of the frustratingly dull or unbearably cold.
    Gassho,
    Blaine

  44. #44
    Junior Member Edward E's Avatar
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    Thank you Jundo. I need to reread this on a regular basis! This type of straightforward and honest teaching is one of the reasons I'm at Treeleaf.

    Gassho,
    Eddie

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