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Thread: Being realized by this

  1. #1

    Being realized by this

    Dosho Port in his book reminds us how Daiun Harada, while on a begging round, saw steam rising from an old woman s urine at the roadside and was realized by the full moon. This is a moment everybody can experience anytime, anything can trigger it, it is not satori or kensho, but a moment beyond words and concepts where things do shine bright an amazing darkness. Little things will reach you beyond skin, bones and flesh. It is a sudden ringing and it strikes you as if the ground had suddenly gone and sky-earth would be just what is left. In this our petty problems and angers are not anymore. A sound may come out: Ahhh! Ohhh! Or even a shout or whisper or a song.

    It cannot be found. It can only find you. And when it does, it is already too late.

    Gassho


    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Seizan's Avatar
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    Thank you, Taigu. I think this bears much reflection!

    Deep Gassho,
    Seizan

  3. #3
    Yes if you mean light and no if you imply thinking and it does not belong to Zen, when Zen is realized, Zen disappears and self vanishes.

    Gassho


    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  4. #4
    "A moment beyond words and concepts"; what is in the moment before words and concepts?

  5. #5
    No ZEn, no thing, no self.
    And yet everything.
    In that moment, unspeakable. Ineffable. After that moment, when self and all the rest comes back,it is just like traces left by a bird in the snow, or even better, whatis left on water when waterbirds do fly away.

    Gassho

    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  6. #6

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    No ZEn, no thing, no self.
    And yet everything.
    In that moment, unspeakable. Ineffable. After that moment, when self and all the rest comes back,it is just like traces left by a bird in the snow, or even better, whatis left on water when waterbirds do fly away.

    Gassho

    Taigu
    As humans we seem to get lost in trying to describe the moment - steam rising from an old woman's urine is perhaps just an extreneous detail - the moment of realisation can't be defined by words.

    But I guess it's Ok to sometimes use words/think pictures to remind ourselves that such moments are possible?

    Gassho

    Willow

  8. #8
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
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    It's only life.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

  9. #9
    Hello Taigu,

    I always remember scissor cut images, when being reminded that we are realised by THIS. Usually we think that we are the oh so important scissor black cut profile and the white background is just somehowthere too....whilst if you reversed black and white on a scissor cut image, you would see how all of IT realizes that which arises.

    This might not make sense, but hey, I thought why not share it

    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen
    Chudo Mongen, Ordained Novice Priest-in-Training

  10. #10
    Treeleaf Unsui Myozan Kodo's Avatar
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    Hello,

    What is left on water when water birds fly away!

    ... Cold mountain, writing poems on water ...

    Gassho
    Myozan
    Myozan Kodo
    Ordained Soto Zen Priest in Training
    Dublin, Ireland

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.
    "Here the way unfolds."

  11. #11
    "It cannot be found. It can only find you. And when it does, it is already too late."

    I suppose one shouldn't desire such moment for it is just makyo or is it some great opening after long sincere and wholehearted practice?

    Gassho

    Memo



  12. #12
    Hello Memo,

    the tragic truth might be that no-one can tell you, because nothing that anybody else puts into words will reflect the deep nature of your own experience. Striving is a big problem in itself however, maybe even the biggest.

    There is nothing whatsoever you can do to become what you already are.

    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen
    Chudo Mongen, Ordained Novice Priest-in-Training

  13. #13
    No striving!
    Let it be, if it happens, just like brain or heart stroke, ha, ha

    thanks Hans

    Gassho

    Memo

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    Hello Memo,

    the tragic truth might be that no-one can tell you, because nothing that anybody else puts into words will reflect the deep nature of your own experience. Striving is a big problem in itself however, maybe even the biggest.

    There is nothing whatsoever you can do to become what you already are.

    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen
    Gassho Taigu and Hans! It must be hard as hell to be a zen teacher...

    What book is that from Taigu?


    Gassho,

    Risho

  15. #15
    Keep my in your heart for a while by Dosho Port.

    Gassho

    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  16. #16
    it is not hard as hell...as long as you don't think you are a teacher!

    gassho


    T.
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    Hello Memo,

    the tragic truth might be that no-one can tell you, because nothing that anybody else puts into words will reflect the deep nature of your own experience. Striving is a big problem in itself however, maybe even the biggest.

    There is nothing whatsoever you can do to become what you already are.

    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen
    Is it fair to say that striving ("trying to catch a feather with a fan") can't be bypassed? It has to play out?

    Gassho, Daizan
    大山

  18. #18
    Hello Daizan,

    Taigu is bound to have a much better answer than me.....I am running the risk of sounding less fortune cookie like than in my last posting, but here it goes

    Striving to not-strive doesn't work....but nevertheless, we are humans so we will always fall into that trap again and again, we might just as well get used to it.

    The "playing out" bit can indeed naturally happen by itself however, once a certain level of frustration has been reached. The intellectual insight behind all this sadly doesn't help at all in real life, other than making one feel guilty about still not having reached a point where one strives less.

    Let's illustrate this example by using a rather shallow analogy: If you operate in your daily life based on the idea that shopping brings you lasting happiness, you might repeat the same mistake of buying stuff to make you happy again and again.....the Dharma as a practise path for developing deep attention will not get rid of this urge simply through your reading about it...but it might enable you to actually be present and notice clearly what it is that arises whenever your old reactional pattern of equating peace and happiness with something you can buy kicks in again.

    There might come a point (or points actually, since this is not a one-off affair), where you will have developed a certain awareness-attention-capacity that might enable you to really experience the frustration of this repetitive circle....after having repeated a certain pattern for thousands of times, you might indeed be suddenly in a position where you can intuitively spot the soft underbelly of dualistic striving: "Wait a second...I've done this a million times...this is bullshit!"

    That's how I found the dharma, I had to be so frustrated with my uncountable previous approaches (religious and otherwise) to reality, that the only thing that was left was the Dharma. Other people recognize the greatness of the Dharma a lot sooner I had to bang my head against every wall life threw at me before I arrived at the Dharma....

    When your capacity for truly open insight and attention has become stronger than the momentum of your striving....that's when something will have played out.

    Other than the mere technicality of practising the Dharma/Zazen for some time, another big problem is to be found on the level of self-esteem. If deep down inside yourself you don't believe in the possibility that someone like you (and I mean all of us and not you personally) could ever be a "finder" instead of a "seeker"....finding is impossible. Usually being too proud is the problem, but being too humble (Oh silly pathetic me...I could never get IT) is also a problem.



    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen
    Last edited by Hans; 01-16-2013 at 04:16 PM.
    Chudo Mongen, Ordained Novice Priest-in-Training

  19. #19
    Senior Member Jakudo's Avatar
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    So is maintaining a practise considered "striving"? I would guess for some it would. Perhaps becouse we drop expectations (thank you Taigu) while practising Zazen, on and off the cushion, we are maintaining the middle way. Great discussion by the way.
    Gassho, Shawn Jokudo Hinton
    Gassho, Shawn Jakudo Hinton
    It all begins when we say, I. Everything that follows is illusion.
    "Even to speak the word Buddha is dragging in the mud soaking wet; Even to say the word Zen is a total embarrassment."
    寂道

  20. #20
    Senior Member Heisoku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    it is not hard as hell...as long as you don't think you are a teacher!
    it is not hard as hell as long as you don't think. You are a teacher Taigu!
    Heisoku
    平 息

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    Hello Daizan,

    Taigu is bound to have a much better answer than me.....I am running the risk of sounding less fortune cookie like than in my last posting, but here it goes

    Striving to not-strive doesn't work....but nevertheless, we are humans so we will always fall into that trap again and again, we might just as well get used to it.

    The "playing out" bit can indeed naturally happen by itself however, once a certain level of frustration has been reached. The intellectual insight behind all this sadly doesn't help at all in real life, other than making one feel guilty about still not having reached a point where one strives less.

    Let's illustrate this example by using a rather shallow analogy: If you operate in your daily life based on the idea that shopping brings you lasting happiness, you might repeat the same mistake of buying stuff to make you happy again and again.....the Dharma as a practise path for developing deep attention will not get rid of this urge simply through your reading about it...but it might enable you to actually be present and notice clearly what it is that arises whenever your old reactional pattern of equating peace and happiness with something you can buy kicks in again.

    There might come a point (or points actually, since this is not a one-off affair), where you will have developed a certain awareness-attention-capacity that might enable you to really experience the frustration of this repetitive circle....after having repeated a certain pattern for thousands of times, you might indeed be suddenly in a position where you can intuitively spot the soft underbelly of dualistic striving: "Wait a second...I've done this a million times...this is bullshit!"

    That's how I found the dharma, I had to be so frustrated with my uncountable previous approaches (religious and otherwise) to reality, that the only thing that was left was the Dharma. Other people recognize the greatness of the Dharma a lot sooner I had to bang my head against every wall life threw at me before I arrived at the Dharma....

    When your capacity for truly open insight and attention has become stronger than the momentum of your striving....that's when something will have played out.

    Other than the mere technicality of practising the Dharma/Zazen for some time, another big problem is to be found on the level of self-esteem. If deep down inside yourself you don't believe in the possibility that someone like you (and I mean all of us and not you personally) could ever be a "finder" instead of a "seeker"....finding is impossible. Usually being too proud is the problem, but being too humble (Oh silly pathetic me...I could never get IT) is also a problem.



    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen
    Thank you for this clear answer, and framing it in daily life. I bang my head against the wall a lot, but maybe the good thing about that is after 1000 times... the message really sinks in by 1001.

    , Daizan
    Last edited by Daizan; 01-16-2013 at 11:06 PM.
    大山

  22. #22
    "When your capacity for truly open insight and attention has become stronger than the momentum of your striving....that's when something will have played out." H. Chudo M.

    Thanks!
    Gassho, Ed Seido B.
    "Know that the practice of zazen is the complete path of buddha-dharma and nothing can be compared to it....it is not the practice of one or two buddhas but all the buddha ancestors practice this way."
    Dogen zenji in Bendowa






  23. #23
    Wonderfully expressed Mongen. Just wonderful.

    Gassho


    T.
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  24. #24
    Hello,

    thanks for the positive feedback. Although I'd like to point out that the following sentence "When your capacity for truly open insight and attention has become stronger than the momentum of your striving....that's when something will have played out." is also a reflection of some things I read by Ken McLeod a few years ago (wasn't able to remember the exact words, which is why I used my own), which touched me deeply. No matter what people say about him these days, his Heart Sutra commentary is wonderful IMHO.

    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen
    Chudo Mongen, Ordained Novice Priest-in-Training

  25. #25
    OWN IT, LEAVE IT !

    Gassho

    T.
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  26. #26
    Retruning over and over for a thousand times to the "ordinary profundity of the present moment" insight lights. I suspect it is barely discernible at first but with practice it opens. To chase it is to lose it, to get stuck on this side. No sides doen't help then, only the returning, again and again, making it just this! each time.
    What a scam!! "Like selling water by the river."
    Peace!!
    "Know that the practice of zazen is the complete path of buddha-dharma and nothing can be compared to it....it is not the practice of one or two buddhas but all the buddha ancestors practice this way."
    Dogen zenji in Bendowa






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