Tugas Gunadarma Gunadarma Tutorial VB.NET Download OST Anime Soundtrack Anime Opening Anime Ending Anime OST Anime Japan Download Lagu Anime Jepang

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 141

Thread: Spiritual Friendship

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Senior Member Nindo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    915

    Spiritual Friendship

    Got this via facebook. I don't know the source, but I found it very touching.

    On Spiritual Friendship
    by Zoketsu Norman Fischer

    Some of the people you know now, who you are practicing with now, are going to be, and are already becoming, your close spiritual friends. These people are the most precious thing in the world to you. These relationships in spiritual practice are unique. They are not the same as other relationships. There is a quality to them that touches the absolute. It touches something beyond our personalities. This is not the case with ordinary human interaction and relationships. In spiritual practice we know that we are doing that together. We know that we are touching one another at that level. People who have that interaction and that relationship with one another move each other so much that your life is never the same.

    So that is already there in your lives now. Maybe it takes forty years to realize, “Oh, we have done that together. We’ve had that precious time together.” You don’t realize it until it is over. But it is there now in you, so think of that. Think of who those people are for you and remember how precious they are.

    I always tell people that you think you are going to the meditation hall for yourself. No. You are going there because of the other people there meditating. That is why you need to go. Don’t go for yourself. That only goes so far. If you are going for yourself, you won’t last very long, because there are too many other things that you want to do for yourself that will be more compelling. But if you are going there because you know that these other people sitting in the hall with you are the treasures of your life, then you are going there in a way that will really transform your life and will transform your heart forever and ever.
    --- In every moment of our sitting all beings are receiving the ultimate help; they are all achieving perfect peace and perfect rest. --- Norman Fischer

  2. #2
    Senior Member Koshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mexico City
    Posts
    1,063
    Beautiful...So true.... thank you my Spritual friend

    Gassho
    ______________________________
    Kōshin / Leo



    P.S. Yup, I know, my English sucks

  3. #3
    Senior Member Nindo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    915
    Quote Originally Posted by lipor View Post
    Beautiful...So true.... thank you my Spritual friend

    Gassho
    ... and you too.
    --- In every moment of our sitting all beings are receiving the ultimate help; they are all achieving perfect peace and perfect rest. --- Norman Fischer

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by lipor View Post
    Beautiful...So true.... thank you my Spritual friend

    Gassho
    Yes, I agree with Lipor ... Thank you Nindo.

    Gassho
    Michael
    倫道 真現

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Shonin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    677
    I think I like that alot really. Thanks for that.
    _/\_ Dave

  6. #6
    Senior Member Heisoku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Plymouth, Devon, UK
    Posts
    1,222
    You are all a place I come to...to practice....to clarify....to learn.....and to just be with. Thank you for this reminder Nindo.
    Gassho. Nigel.
    Heisoku
    平 息

  7. #7
    Thank you Nindo - that is so true.

    Gassho

    Willow

  8. #8
    Absolutely.
    大山

  9. #9
    Thank you everyone,
    I would like to add a tiny bit to the two lights that Chet and Mongen put on different edges of the very same thing. While I feel that being part of treeleaf is an important part of my practice I still feel Chet has a vlid point about practicing alone can (!) be as good. I stumble over the part " ...whilst just sitting alone somewhere never is the whole of the way in the Mahayana sense" of Mongen; if its literally sitting along and being away from the world I agree (lonely cave model), but if you sit alone and engage in the world, then imho this can be very much the Mahayana path.
    _()_
    Myoku

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Myoku View Post
    Thank you everyone,
    I would like to add a tiny bit to the two lights that Chet and Mongen put on different edges of the very same thing. While I feel that being part of treeleaf is an important part of my practice I still feel Chet has a vlid point about practicing alone can (!) be as good. I stumble over the part " ...whilst just sitting alone somewhere never is the whole of the way in the Mahayana sense" of Mongen; if its literally sitting along and being away from the world I agree (lonely cave model), but if you sit alone and engage in the world, then imho this can be very much the Mahayana path.
    _()_
    Myoku
    It is one thing to say practicing alone is my thing. it is another to say another's sincere expression of appreciation of Community means they don't get it, and to do so from a pose of Enlightenment. That is a plague of internet Zen. spinning "nothing to do" into an Enlightened pose, while manifestly, acting out of a tangled spaghetti ball of self centered thinking. Sorry if this is blunt. Trolling is trolling... BTW trolls usually come in twos.

    Gassho, kojip.

    The trolling comment was obviously not referring to you, Myoku.
    Last edited by Daizan; 11-25-2012 at 03:31 PM.
    大山

  11. #11
    Treeleaf Unsui Yugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Midcoast Maine
    Posts
    1,959
    Blog Entries
    2
    This is one of those episodes where a legitimate discussion devolves to the point where everyone gets their underwear bunched up.... At this point it is no longer about Chet, or about you, or about me. It is certainly no longer about us, and our connection to one another. What I wonder when I see all the time spent on the back and forth, all the navel gazing, all the attributions and counterclaims, the dust gets kicked up and no one can see any more - I wonder - what ratio of time is spent sitting/posting? IMHO being a Buddhist is about sitting, standing, walking, lying down, and understanding the great matter. Posting on the Forum I believe should be an adjunct, or support to one's practice. I struggle with these discursive spirals - while this is community it is not practice. Our teachers and colleagues are "good friends" who support one another in practice - and this in my mind is the purpose of the forums. I am off to the local zendo to sit, and I'll be sitting on G+ later tonight Eastern time. Shared silence can be far more eloquent and profound than noise.....I love you all and want to practice with you. See ya....

    Deep bows
    Yugen
    Last edited by Yugen; 11-28-2012 at 08:54 PM.
    Treeleaf Sangha Shuso Ango Head October 2014
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Please take all my comments with a grain of salt - I am a novice priest and anything I say is to be taken with a good dose of skepticism - Shodo Yugen

  12. #12
    disastermouse
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindo View Post
    Got this via facebook. I don't know the source, but I found it very touching.
    Geez, I seem to be Nindo's contrarian lately, but I disagree with this post.

    I'm hardly an example in my daily sitting practice, but with many other practices in my life, I have found myself to be stronger in these practices because I do them alone. If your practice can't survive without the support of other people, you are not curious enough. You're not fed up enough with your dissatisfaction and you're not curious enough about its causes. This isn't necessarily a problem though, as eventually, I think we all end up very disappointed in dukkha. Maybe this just isn't the lifetime that you're tired enough of dissatisfaction.

    If zazen is a grinding, repressing practice of 'self-control', it will require considerable support and willpower....but that should also be an indication that something is wrong with your practice - not because your ego doesn't like it, but because the OTHER part of your ego that you think isn't your ego is at war with the part of yourself that hates it. Lately, I've been sitting more lightly by ignoring both voices.

    Chet

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse View Post

    I'm hardly an example in my daily sitting practice, but .....

    It is tempting to shoot fish in a barrel... nuff said.
    大山

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse View Post
    Geez, I seem to be Nindo's contrarian lately, but I disagree with this post.

    I'm hardly an example in my daily sitting practice, but with many other practices in my life, I have found myself to be stronger in these practices because I do them alone. If your practice can't survive without the support of other people, you are not curious enough. You're not fed up enough with your dissatisfaction and you're not curious enough about its causes. This isn't necessarily a problem though, as eventually, I think we all end up very disappointed in dukkha. Maybe this just isn't the lifetime that you're tired enough of dissatisfaction.

    If zazen is a grinding, repressing practice of 'self-control', it will require considerable support and willpower....but that should also be an indication that something is wrong with your practice - not because your ego doesn't like it, but because the OTHER part of your ego that you think isn't your ego is at war with the part of yourself that hates it. Lately, I've been sitting more lightly by ignoring both voices.

    Chet
    I have been thinking about this question, and I too sometimes feel like I wish I could just practice by myself. But no matter where you go, you cannot avoid the Sangha. Treeleaf is our Sangha, but so is the town we live in, the community we live in, etc. We are never practicing alone. We are never practicing for ourselves. Awakening is not for ourselves alone; in fact, our vows are to help all sentient beings before we help ourself, even though most of the time I'm more concerned with myself.. I usually put myself first, my own stress, relaxation, avoiding dukkha at any cost. When studying during Jukai, specifically the part about taking refuge in the three treasures, we see Sangha from varying degrees.

    When I think of Sangha, I have to think of the meaning of taking refuge in the Sangha. I don't take refuge to retreat and have others think for me and solve my problems. I think of refuge as a way of retreating from delusion, to see through delusion, or as a way to help me stay on the path to see through delusion, to support the bodhisattva vows. And we should absolutely take responsibility for our own practice. But I feel responsible for others' practice here as well. Of course I'm not responsible for everyone's practice but in a sense I am. I cannot do the practice for others, but I can have influence.

    No doubt, when you post about your practice, you influence mine. If I see someone who is struggling with practice, I can empathize with that struggle and share or learn from that experience, and vice versa. There are countless seen and unseen influencers. The way the practice informs our lives can have direct impact on others... sorry absolutely does have impact on others. But you are right, if your practice is warped then something does need to be adjusted, but we have to start somewhere. Everyone's practice is warped to some degree, which is why we practice.

    I think the Sangha can be a refuge with that as well. By talking about things, it's a way of openly acknowledging them. We are in this together, and that shared experience really helps me a lot. We are social animals, no doubt, and if we didn't share certain thoughts or a "moral grammar" we could not function as a society. So even if we are by ourselves, we aren't really alone.

    In any case, it's not one or the other. Only "siths think in absolutes." hahhaah

    Anyway you were talking about why you prefer to sit alone, and now I got off topic. lol

    I am a fallible, human being. Sometimes I don't want to sit zazen, or do zazenkai or avoid swearing or sweets during ango; anything that is "practice". On one hand I could berate myself that my practice sucks. But I do that enough, and it's self-sabotage to not practice. But having a group helps me with that. It helps keep the intent alive. If I feel like giving up, seeing Dokan's or Dosho's practice or listening to one of Taigu's or Jundo's talks (for example) can help. With or without the Sangha, if we are on the path, we have to practice. Personally, I think the Sangha helps me.

    I always appreciate your posts because they are very well articulated, and they make me think about my practice. I wouldn't necessarily get that if I didn't read what you posted in this Sangha, so even if you prefer practicing alone, I know my practice is richer with you being here. You've been sitting for years, and I can always see that experience in what you post.

    Gassho,

    Risho

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Risho View Post
    I have been thinking about this question, and I too sometimes feel like I wish I could just practice by myself. But no matter where you go, you cannot avoid the Sangha. Treeleaf is our Sangha, but so is the town we live in, the community we live in, etc. We are never practicing alone. We are never practicing for ourselves. Awakening is not for ourselves alone; in fact, our vows are to help all sentient beings before we help ourself, even though most of the time I'm more concerned with myself.. I usually put myself first, my own stress, relaxation, avoiding dukkha at any cost. When studying during Jukai, specifically the part about taking refuge in the three treasures, we see Sangha from varying degrees.
    Thank you, Risho, for a beautiful description of Sangha.

    I was just reading this morning an old Sutta from the Vinaya describing the original formation of the Sangha 2500 years ago ... and all the bumps and frictions of personality in that community. The more things change, the more things stay the same.


    At that time some Bhikkhus, as they had no upagghâyas (preceptor-mentors to show them proper decorum) and received no exhortation and instruction, went on their rounds for alms wearing improper under and upper garments (or, wearing their under and upper garments improperly), and in an improper attire. While people were eating, they held out [asking for more] their alms-bowls in which were still leavings of food over the hard food (which the people were eating), and held them out over soft food, and held them out over savoury food, and held them out over drinks. They asked for soup and boiled rice themselves, and ate it; in the dining halls they made a great and loud noise. ...Some Bhikkhus heard those people that were annoyed, murmured, and had become angry. Those Bhikkhus who were moderate, frugal, modest, conscientious, anxious for training, were annoyed, murmured, and became angry: 'How can the Bhikkhus go on their rounds for alms wearing improper under and upper garments, &c.? How can they make so great and loud a noise in the dining halls?'
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe13/sbe1312.htm

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 11-30-2012 at 02:25 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  16. #16
    Senior Member Heishu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Indiana, USA
    Posts
    492
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    ... and all the bumps and frictions of personality in that community. The more things change, the more things stay the same.
    Gassho, J
    That for me is what community is about, we will never agree with everything that someone says unless we totally agree to the exact same thought in our mind. Friction abounds within a community, no matter if it be an internet or a live an in person place. If I agree I say so, if not, I say so; and if I feel it is best, I keep my thoughts to myself. However, I respect the fact that within a community there will be at least the possibility that I will disagree with someone and then I must, as best as I can, wisely choose to comment or not comment about the matter.

    I wish that the world would be a perfect place but it is not. Therefore, I try my best to get along as best as I can. I think for the most part that Chet was trying as best as he could to get along.

    Gassho
    Alan

  17. #17
    Senior Member Shonin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    677
    Ya know ,Chet. Actually....

  18. #18
    Senior Member Shawn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    712
    Thank you Nindo

    Gassho..

    Shawn

  19. #19
    Friend of Treeleaf Daido's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Corona, Ca
    Posts
    680
    I treasure this sangha as well. Thanks Nindo.

    Gassho,

    Daido
    Jiken Daido - Unsui at Treeleaf's Brother Sangha, the Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage.

    Do not just accept what I say. Decide for yourself if it rings true for you

  20. #20
    Hello,

    from the Upaddha Sutta (thanks go out to Access to Insight)

    I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Sakyans. Now there is a Sakyan town named Sakkara. There Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, lord: admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie."[1]

    "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path.

    "And how does a monk who has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, develop & pursue the noble eightfold path? There is the case where a monk develops right view dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. He develops right resolve... right speech... right action... right livelihood... right effort... right mindfulness... right concentration dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. This is how a monk who has admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues, develops & pursues the noble eightfold path.

    "And through this line of reasoning one may know how admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life: It is in dependence on me as an admirable friend that beings subject to birth have gained release from birth, that beings subject to aging have gained release from aging, that beings subject to death have gained release from death, that beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair have gained release from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. It is through this line of reasoning that one may know how admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life."


    Gassho,


    Hans Chudo Mongen
    Chudo Mongen, Ordained Novice Priest-in-Training

  21. #21
    disastermouse
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojip View Post
    It is tempting to shoot fish in a barrel... nuff said.
    I'm not sure what this means. If I drop the story that I haven't been sitting enough, there's really no problem.

    I think you missed the point of my post.

    Chet

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse View Post
    I'm not sure what this means. If I drop the story that I haven't been sitting enough, there's really no problem.

    I think you missed the point of my post.

    Chet
    I should not have responded, Chet. Not for lack of understanding, but because I should know better than to engage it. So signing off.
    大山

  23. #23
    disastermouse
    Guest
    Hans,

    I'm starting to think the Buddha was wrong on this one.

    Are all spiritual communities and friends equal? Did Siddhartha NOT leave quite a few spiritual friends - friends that denounced him at the time?

    He went off alone. There was no sangha with him under the bodhi tree, if I recall correctly. Repeatedly Siddhartha left the comfort of friends and community. Had he not done that, would we know of him today?

    Why do so few in these communities wake up?

    Chet
    Last edited by disastermouse; 11-24-2012 at 09:26 PM.

  24. #24
    Going it alone is a lot more difficult. That's why it took 1000's of years for someone like siddartha to come along and take 6 years to finally figure it out lol.

    Bows to all sanghas.

  25. #25
    Senior Member Heishu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Indiana, USA
    Posts
    492
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Going it alone is a lot more difficult. That's why it took 1000's of years for someone like siddartha to come along and take 6 years to finally figure it out lol.

    Bows to all sanghas.
    That sums up how I feel. I can't even fix breakfast by myself. I depend on those that prepared my flakes, processed the sugar, milked the cows and shipped it all to the store. Just as in real life we sometimes need some help and or a friend, it is also true in our practice.

    Gassho
    Alan

  26. #26
    disastermouse
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Going it alone is a lot more difficult. That's why it took 1000's of years for someone like siddartha to come along and take 6 years to finally figure it out lol.

    Bows to all sanghas.
    But he didn't go it alone for most of that. He was in community after community and did not find liberation. Is it in the nature of groups to reinforce grasping? Why do so few people wake up? You would think sanghas would be overflowing with people who, although still displaying personalities, are less densely trapped by them. Instead, sometimes you see people more densely trapped in more pleasant personas...better than before, but no less hopelessly bound in an identity.

    Or you see sex scandals, power trips, back-biting, and all sorts of stuff pretending to be spiritual and sacred when it's just new clothes on old delusions. How is that especially helpful? People may call you on your bullshit, but they lay their bullshit all over you. The higher up the hierarchy, the denser and harder to penetrate are the delusions.

    Either way, you're on your own - even if you're in a group. Your spiritual friends may be just pulling you into their trips. In the end, their lights cannot guide you.

    Chet

  27. #27
    Thank you Nindo.
    Neika / Ian Adams

    寧 Nei - Peaceful/Courteous
    火 Ka - Fire

    Look for Buddha outside your own mind, and Buddha becomes the devil. --Dogen

  28. #28
    Treeleaf Unsui Yugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Midcoast Maine
    Posts
    1,959
    Blog Entries
    2
    "....it just seems unbecoming of a Buddhist, esp a priest in waiting (or wanting)."

    It is legitimate I believe to raise whether or not a verbal/written attack has taken place, in the context of a discussion of right speech or skillful means - to claim that an individual has attacked another and then proceed to issue an attack or attribution regarding someone's intentions does not advance the discussion except to demonstrate an example of harmful speech. If one has a concern to seriously discuss with a colleague regarding that individual's behavior/intentions in the sangha, might it best be done via PM? Public snarkiness does not strike me as helpful....

    Deep bows
    Yugen
    Last edited by Yugen; 11-28-2012 at 06:59 PM.
    Treeleaf Sangha Shuso Ango Head October 2014
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Please take all my comments with a grain of salt - I am a novice priest and anything I say is to be taken with a good dose of skepticism - Shodo Yugen

  29. #29
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mormon Country
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by Yugen View Post
    "....it just seems unbecoming of a Buddhist, esp a priest in waiting (or wanting)."

    It is legitimate I believe to raise whether or not a verbal/written attack has taken place, in the context of a discussion of right speech or skillful means - to claim that an individual has attacked another and then proceed to issue an attack or attribution regarding someone's intentions does not advance the discussion except to demonstrate an example of harmful speech. If one has a concern to seriously discuss with a colleague regarding that individual's behavior/intentions in the sangha, might it best be done via PM? Public snarkiness does not strike me as helpful....

    Deep bows
    Yugen


    Snarkiness is fine, I will own `your perception here, Yugen. The PM also would have been good advice in telling him what he do, and how he should act. I do not remember you making that point earlier in his defense. But I have been out of line here, just felt like it was a personal attack on myself, and yes did not handle it well. Thank you for pointing this out.


    Gassho
    Nothing Special

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse View Post
    But he didn't go it alone for most of that. He was in community after community and did not find liberation. Is it in the nature of groups to reinforce grasping? Why do so few people wake up? You would think sanghas would be overflowing with people who, although still displaying personalities, are less densely trapped by them. Instead, sometimes you see people more densely trapped in more pleasant personas...better than before, but no less hopelessly bound in an identity.

    Or you see sex scandals, power trips, back-biting, and all sorts of stuff pretending to be spiritual and sacred when it's just new clothes on old delusions. How is that especially helpful? People may call you on your bullshit, but they lay their bullshit all over you. The higher up the hierarchy, the denser and harder to penetrate are the delusions.

    Either way, you're on your own - even if you're in a group. Your spiritual friends may be just pulling you into their trips. In the end, their lights cannot guide you.

    Chet
    AS an individual I agree that you are on your own and responsible for how and when you practice. And if you need to go off on your own for awhile that's OK. But the others in your group/sangha/community need you and you need them for support, guidance and reflection. We can't always see ourselves, or we see something and interpret it in a totally wrong way. So practicing or just being with others is a mutually beneficial process.
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

  31. #31
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Mexico
    Posts
    2,957
    Thank you, Nindo.

    Really beautiful.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

  32. #32
    Hello Chet,

    to me personally there is a great conceptual difference between realising awakening in the sense of "just" having Kensho style openings that might or might not change your life forever, and realising awakening as a process of dynamic actions.
    Loads of people have had Kensho experiences (even verified ones...whatever that's supposed to mean), but they still stink out of their asses like everyone else.

    The Mahayana sutras are repeatedly mentioning awakened Pratyeka guys/girls who went it all alone.....and they don't fail to mention the fact that the path of the Mahayana vehicle is more broad and deep in its realisation and more inclusive than the path of the Pratyekas.
    I guess nobody here thinks that merely being/practising around other people necessarily has a great and supportive effect. But it CAN be the whole of the way, whilst just sitting alone somewhere never is the whole of the way in the Mahayana sense.

    Just my two Yen. Peace and gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen
    Chudo Mongen, Ordained Novice Priest-in-Training

  33. #33
    disastermouse
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    Hello Chet,

    to me personally there is a great conceptual difference between realising awakening in the sense of "just" having Kensho style openings that might or might not change your life forever, and realising awakening as a process of dynamic actions.
    Loads of people have had Kensho experiences (even verified ones...whatever that's supposed to mean), but they still stink out of their asses like everyone else.

    The Mahayana sutras are repeatedly mentioning awakened Pratyeka guys/girls who went it all alone.....and they don't fail to mention the fact that the path of the Mahayana vehicle is more broad and deep in its realisation and more inclusive than the path of the Pratyekas.
    I guess nobody here thinks that merely being/practising around other people necessarily has a great and supportive effect. But it CAN be the whole of the way, whilst just sitting alone somewhere never is the whole of the way in the Mahayana sense.

    Just my two Yen. Peace and gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen
    I'm not saying that groups are bad - just that they don't seem to add OR detract from the path. In the end, it's on you. Groups can just as easily be a place to hide as can a mountain cave.

    And I'm not talking about kensho or a special mental state. Also, who cares if it's Mahayana or not? If your Mahayana group isn't waking you up, who cares? I'm not talking about kensho, I'm just talking about the natural state.

    If it doesn't wake you up or wake you up again, throw it out. If you're unwilling to do that, that's the exact measure of what's keeping you from the natural state. It's not about gaining a whole bunch of precious ideas.

    IMHO.

    Chet
    Last edited by disastermouse; 11-25-2012 at 01:09 PM.

  34. #34
    Hello Chet,

    as often happens with such discussions, relative and ultimate levels are kinda being pitted against one another. I do agree that people shouldn't care about names and definition like Pratyeka, Hinayana etc. This was just to illustrate some traditional views. However as long as people, especially beginners, cannot but look for a path, it is helpful to know what one is talking about.

    Arguably (depending one whom you'd ask) what you call the natural state is just the same thing that continous practise along an authentic path/non-path would manifest over time (or instantly).

    I still feel confused about what it really is you call "waking up".

    Actually Chet, if you are completely convinced that your preference for "doing it alone" is the real way, then I'd suggest you manifest this insight to a point where you will lead loads of individuals to liberation. Please tell me how that works once you have succeeded...

    Since we're throwing relative and ultimate views around like candy on a Halloween night, I have just one last question.

    When you say that "In the end, it's on you." please show me that you that exists seperately from all other sentient beings.

    YOU can never practise alone, sitting in a mountain cave next to a desert....there is no such thing as a lone practitioner. Just people who can't stand a certain noise level.

    I have nothing further to discuss here...heaps and heaps of words...


    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen
    Chudo Mongen, Ordained Novice Priest-in-Training

  35. #35
    disastermouse
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    Hello Chet,

    as often happens with such discussions, relative and ultimate levels are kinda being pitted against one another. I do agree that people shouldn't care about names and definition like Pratyeka, Hinayana etc. This was just to illustrate some traditional views. However as long as people, especially beginners, cannot but look for a path, it is helpful to know what one is talking about.
    These terms should point to something immediately accessible. If you have to explain them, they are exactly not immediately accessible.

    Arguably (depending one whom you'd ask) what you call the natural state is just the same thing that continous practise along an authentic path/non-path would manifest over time (or instantly).
    In what space do things manifest? THAT is the natural state. How could it manifest?

    I still feel confused about what it really is you call "waking up".

    Actually Chet, if you are completely convinced that your preference for "doing it alone" is the real way, then I'd suggest you manifest this insight to a point where you will lead loads of individuals to liberation. Please tell me how that works once you have succeeded...
    I don't think you heard what I meant to say. A group amplifies a tendency or direction. The point isn't that going alone is best, the point is that simply being part of a group does not necessarily guarantee anything - even a Buddhist one. Buddhism serves many functions, many of which are cultural, some of which build better identities for people. But let's not confuse Buddhism with a path primarily concerned with ego development. Throwing even Buddhism out, let's not confuse spiritual practice with attainment or self-identity practices. You can strengthen ego delusion by yourself, but you can even more powerfully develop it in a group. Being German, I can't imagine how you are not acutely aware of this.

    Since we're throwing relative and ultimate views around like candy on a Halloween night, I have just one last question.

    When you say that "In the end, it's on you." please show me that you that exists seperately from all other sentient beings.
    You know I can't do that; there is no you that exists separately from all other beings. Nor is there a you that exists with all other beings - connected or disconnected. It is by turns a useful or obfuscating concept - this 'I' which must be referenced that ultimately points to nothing.

    YOU can never practise alone, sitting in a mountain cave next to a desert....there is no such thing as a lone practitioner. Just people who can't stand a certain noise level.

    I have nothing further to discuss here...heaps and heaps of words...


    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen
    The point is not whether you can or can't practice alone or with others. The point is whether you believe either of these concepts points to something accurate. Ultimately, neither does.

    And what's wrong with words? Wordless practice can just as easily be deluded and grasping. Words are simply more honestly dishonest. They betray their contradictions with reality quite readily. Silence can also be a hiding place.

    Chet

  36. #36
    Chet. Are you aware of how this is playing out? ....this thread? Look out how the thread started, then look at what is playing out. What do you want?
    大山

  37. #37
    disastermouse
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojip View Post
    Chet. Are you aware of how this is playing out? ....this thread? Look out how the thread started, then look at what is playing out. What do you want?
    I want an honest conversation and I want to examine everything that I thought was true.

    I haven't insulted anyone, nor is that the intent. I'm just not so sure that the premises upon which this thread is based are anything more than a nice story that we tell ourselves.

    Chet

  38. #38
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Rochester, NY, USA
    Posts
    5,145
    Hi all,

    The Three Treasures are Buddha, Dharma, Sangha for a reason...and not Buddha, Dharma, Chet; Buddha, Dharma, Dosho; or Buddha, Dharma, Buddha for that matter.

    To spend countless moments trying to make it more complex than that is foolish and unhelpful in my opinion.

    Gassho,
    Dosho
    Shudo Dosho - Ordained Priest-in-Training
    With your help and guidance from Jundo & Taigu
    I am learning, but please take what I say with a
    grain of salt, especially in matters of the Dharma.

  39. #39
    disastermouse
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojip View Post
    It is one thing to say practicing alone is my thing. it is another to say another's sincere expression of appreciation of Community means they don't get it, and to do so from a pose of Enlightenment. That is a plague of internet Zen. spinning "nothing to do" into an Enlightened pose, while manifestly, acting out of a tangled spaghetti ball of self centered thinking. Sorry if this is blunt. Trolling is trolling... BTW trolls usually come in twos.

    Gassho, kojip.

    The trolling comment was obviously not referring to you, Myoku.
    Where am I saying that a sincere appreciation of community means that? I'm saying that a sincere expression of appreciation for community is not necessarily right simply because its an expression of appreciation for community.

    I'm not taking the stand that any of these things are wrong in and of themselves. But neither are they necessarily beneficial simply by their existing.

    It seems some of you think that because I'm suspending the belief that spiritual community is inherently important that I'm picking up the opposing belief.

    I'm not doing that either. I was only using those examples of the Buddha's singular path as examples of how the original belief is not necessarily true.

    There's the plague of Internet individualistic Zen. There's also the plague of group-think and community influenced delusion. You needn't pick up either of these things. It's okay to be uncertain. It might even be beneficial to be uncertain.

    So, in putting down one conviction, I don't want to pick up the opposite conviction. My aim is fewer certainties - fewer convictions.

    That's not trolling, that's an honest expression that I don't really know anything and I don't want to pretend that either opinion is entirely accurate.

    And I'm not saying you're wrong because I steadfastly refuse to pick up the mantle of being right. I'm just pointing out that this idea could be wrong.

    Chet

  40. #40
    disastermouse
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Dosho View Post
    Hi all,

    The Three Treasures are Buddha, Dharma, Sangha for a reason...and not Buddha, Dharma, Chet; Buddha, Dharma, Dosho; or Buddha, Dharma, Buddha for that matter.

    To spend countless moments trying to make it more complex than that is foolish and unhelpful in my opinion.

    Gassho,
    Dosho
    Who cares? Do we honor them because they are the three treasures of Buddhism or are they truly treasures and hence we honor them regardless of how they are presented?

    Put another way, if we were drawn to say, political conservatism - would we honor the principles of conservatism because they reflected reality or because some aspect of them seemed correct at some point, leading us to adopt the label 'conservative ' and no longer examining their veracity?

    Would we acknowledge the negative aspects of these principles when they were clearly evident or would we pretend they didn't exist in service of our preselected ideology?

    Chet

  41. #41
    Hi Chet,

    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse View Post
    Who cares? Do we honor them because they are the three treasures of Buddhism or are they truly treasures and hence we honor them regardless of how they are presented?
    This is something everyone must find out for themselves.

    You've raised some valid points in this thread, but I think this is an individual thing.
    I am pretty sure one can practice Zen Buddhism on ones own, w/out a Sangha. But not everyone. (In fact probably not the majority.)

    Some don't need a Sangha at all.
    Some absolutely need it.
    Some don't necessarily need a Sangha, but prefer to have one, because they find it helpful and like to be in company.
    This is an oversimplification, but I think you know what I want to say.

    To each their own.

    Gassho,

    Timo
    no thing needs to be added

  42. #42
    Senior Member Amelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    San Diego County, California
    Posts
    1,750
    I take refuge in the Sangha. Perhaps we are born alone and we die alone, but we can practice this life together.
    迎 Geika

  43. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Amelia View Post
    I take refuge in the Sangha. Perhaps we are born alone and we die alone, but we can practice this life together.
    Lovely!

    Gassho
    Michael
    倫道 真現

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  44. #44
    ..what Dosho just said
    _()_
    Myoku

  45. #45
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Rochester, NY, USA
    Posts
    5,145
    Chet,

    Should we accept things without questioning them? Of course not. But if they ring true to us, I don't think it necessary to dissect them to the furthest degree. I don't swallow whole what I learn. I take the time to digest the teachings. I talk about them with others so as not to get caught up in my own BS. But so early along this path, to be continually analyzing, questioning, and posting about every little bit of Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha? That's not following the path.

    If you don't like the path that has been laid before you, then go find another one. But if you stay, and I say this with all due respect and sincerity: Sit the (bleep) down and shut the (bleep) up! Sorry for the harsh language, but I am trying to speak loud enough and with sufficient salt so that you might just hear me.

    Gassho,
    Dosho
    Shudo Dosho - Ordained Priest-in-Training
    With your help and guidance from Jundo & Taigu
    I am learning, but please take what I say with a
    grain of salt, especially in matters of the Dharma.

  46. #46
    Senior Member Nindo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    915
    Quote Originally Posted by Chet
    The point isn't that going alone is best, the point is that simply being part of a group does not necessarily guarantee anything...
    The point was gratitude, simple as that. Notice it says SOME people at the start, not EVERYBODY out of EVERY group you will ever be in. There may be some key people in your practice who first point you to it, who keep encouraging you, who you end up feeling some responsibility for, and, above all, gratitude.

    There are a few Dharma mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters in my life. I don't take them for granted. Sincere practice is an act of gratitude towards them. That's all the initial post was pointing at.
    --- In every moment of our sitting all beings are receiving the ultimate help; they are all achieving perfect peace and perfect rest. --- Norman Fischer

  47. #47
    Hello Myoku,

    my point was simply that the way of the glorious Mahayana is one of engaged compassion. Which is why self-focussed-escapist practise is absolutely cool, it's just not Mahayana practise Jumping to the ultimate level again we can say that all these names mean nothing at all...but then again there might be a reason why some people feel drawn towards certain kinds of practise and others feel drawn to others. I hope we all find a practise or non-practise that suits us best.

    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen
    Chudo Mongen, Ordained Novice Priest-in-Training

  48. #48
    Senior Member Heishu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Indiana, USA
    Posts
    492
    Spiritual Friendship!!!




    Thank you Nindo and everyone at Treeleaf.


    Gassho
    Alan

    ps. I know that this video may be percieved as lame but the OP was about our spiritual friends. I may be able to walk my path alone but it is nice to get a little help from my friends.

  49. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by AlanIn View Post
    Spiritual Friendship!!!




    Thank you Nindo and everyone at Treeleaf.


    Gassho
    Alan

    ps. I know that this video may be percieved as lame but the OP was about our spiritual friends. I may be able to walk my path alone but it is nice to get a little help from my friends.
    Thanks Alan ... Love Joe Cocker. Brings back some good memories.

    Gassho
    Michael
    倫道 真現

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  50. #50
    Senior Member Amelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    San Diego County, California
    Posts
    1,750
    That's one of my favorite songs.
    迎 Geika

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •