Buddhist philosophy on self injurious behavior and suicide.

[treebeard]

I am a little late to the game on this one. On selfishness and suicide I give you one man's perspective on the experience (or near experience, I guess).

Is it selfish for an animal in excruciating pain caught in a leg trap to chew it's leg off? Is it selfish for the man who has been chased by a lion and just about escaped, to collapse in exhaustion before reaching the safety of the cave just behind the hill which he can't see? Unfortunate yes, but I wouldn't term it selfish. Would it have been good if there were a person on the hill to tell him that safety was barely within reach? Yes, but in the lack of that information I don't think "selfish" is the correct term for succumbing to excruciating trial. That has been my experience with suicide (I fortunately called the hotline as soon as I noticed the signs and compelling urges coming on but many are not sufficiently self aware to separate their thoughts from who they are). We are often quick to condemn the person when they succeed in suicide rather then think of all the days they gave us, in which they were fighting and giving themselves to us despite excruciating mental anguish. Each day a chronically mentally ill person we love lives is a gift to all of us and if they happen to collapse in "suicide" one day because the battle became too much and another step was just too much, I believe we should reflect and enjoy their continued life through our memories of the many gifts they gave to us. If we do happen to be on the hill and see the haggard desperate prey of the lion approach, we should give the encouragement of safety and perhaps lighten their load enough that they may give us one more day if they can, but really, only they know their full circumstances, so if they collapse at our feet, we should not judge, we should be grateful for what they gave us in my opinion.

Anyway, I am not a professional, I am just one person that has had experiences and these are my insights from them. If Buddhism has one thing that can't be undersold it is the concept of dealing with pain. So many other philosophies promise respite in the afterlife or through miracles that may or may not arrive and lead to disappointment, Buddhism has a very down to earth approach that is replicable across different people, no deity is necessarily needed other than for perhaps instruction or example. Of course, this is only once one has reached a therapeutic level through professional help, medications and such if you are beset with a mental illness.

Much metta Anneliese. The family of a person with severe mental illness often have great suffering as well. I hope you have healed from the bad experiences and have at least some fond memories upon which you can enjoy.

Gassho,
Paul

Sat today

[Jishin]

Hi Paul,

IMHO suicide has little to do with character and can be best explained by the biopsychosocial model. Bio=genes, psycho=what you see when you look in the mirror, social=whats around you.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Heion]

Self-harm is an unskillful way to relieve the stress and dukkha of life.

Suicide is not as much of a desire to die, but of not wanting to live.

Both of these are misguided attempts at self-soothing and are ways to escape the perils of our mind.

Often times, therapy is needed, but as Jundo said it is more about addressing the core issues of learning to deal with mental suffering in a way that does not involve self injurious behaviors.

[Entai]

Metta to all those who are suffering from mental illness, to their families, friends and hopefully caregivers.

So,...
I attempted suicide in 2001. I had been diagnosed with major depressive disorder and generalized anxiety disorder. Turns out that I was misdiagnosed and the med cocktails they kept dreaming up for me were just making the situation worse. So, being deemed "medication resistant", I was given ECT treatments (electroshock). That messed up my memory and my ability to process information. And as a bonus I got to keep taking the meds that were making things worse. It sort of ruined the whole engineering career (spoiler: turned out to be a blessing in disguise). I was a mess and felt completely alone in the world.

Mental illness is a brutal thing. It produces faulty thinking by its very nature. My mind wasn't just dealing with our old friend ego-delusion. My brain was generating delusion in a big way. Horrible thoughts that had no basis in reality and just wouldn't stop. I always compare it to being set on fire. When you feel like you are being burned alive you'll do anything to put out the flames.

The idea that suicide is selfish bothers me. I think it adds to the stigma of mental illness. I can only speak of my own circumstances, and I don't feel like I made a selfish decision. In fact, I don't know that I made a decision at all. It was more of a fight or flight reaction. But there was no way to fight and no way to flee my own mind. I did what I did to make it stop.

Thankfully I didn't succeed. My advice to people suffering from mental illness is to seek help. Get second and third opinions. My misdiagnosis could have cost me my life. The correct diagnosis got me the right meds and lead to a happy and relatively stable life (however I have friends who might take issue with the "stable" part). I also strongly advise against ECT. If your doc thinks you need it, get a forth and fifth opinion.

My advice if you know someone who is suicidal.. Help them with their medical needs (finding a doc, making it to appointments, getting and understanding all the important information, etc). Other than that, just be present for them. Listen when they want to talk. Be honest, but kind. Don't judge them. Don't judge yourself.

Well, that was a little more than I intended to write. I apologize if any of it came across as insensitive. It's just my take on things.

Anyway, that's that.

Gassho,
Entai
#SatToday

[Shugen]

Thank you to all that shared their experiences. I don't think that there is any "one" right perspective on this. I very much appreciate Entai's suggestion:

"...if you know someone who is suicidal.. help them with their medical needs (finding a doc, making it to appointments, getting and understanding all the important information, etc). Other than that, just be present for them. Listen when they want to talk. Be honest, but kind. Don't judge them. Don't judge yourself."

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Mp]

Thank you to all that shared their experiences. I don't think that there is any "one" right perspective on this. I very much appreciate Entai's suggestion:

"...if you know someone who is suicidal.. help them with their medical needs (finding a doc, making it to appointments, getting and understanding all the important information, etc). Other than that, just be present for them. Listen when they want to talk. Be honest, but kind. Don't judge them. Don't judge yourself."

Entai, I echo Shugen's words ... thank you for sharing your experience, I feel these words are very valuable.

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Diarmuid1]

Sadly, taking one's life is most often seen as a completely selfless option. The victim of such actions is often under the perception that the only way that they can contribute meaningfully to the lives of others is to remove themselves from the equation. Suicide is a truly terrible illness.

SatToday

[Diarmuid1]

This buddhist views both as immensely sad. I work with Samaritans in the UK and there are many calls from people who are self-harm and who contemplate suicide.

My view of both acts is that they are symptomatic of the delusion that we swim in. We often feel the need to find an answer to problems and this, I think, is one of the defining characteristics of our delusion.

For the most part, the people I speak to suffer from suicidal urges or the urge to harm themselves. These are not conscious decisions made by people who are in the best place to make them. This is why I find it so sad.

What I find inspiring is that, despite the illness they are suffering, a part of them resists and pushes them to dial the number that puts them in contact with me. I don't know how much help I am to them, but they are immensely helpful to me.

SatToday

[Zenmei]

Sadly, taking one's life is most often seen as a completely selfless option. The victim of such actions is often under the perception that the only way that they can contribute meaningfully to the lives of others is to remove themselves from the equation. Suicide is a truly terrible illness.

SatToday

This is very true. It's hard for me to believe now, but earlier this year I was suicidally depressed. I wrestled with the idea that my kids would be better off if I were dead.
The idea of ending my suffering was appealing, but I survived for years with that temptation. It never became a real possibility until I started to believe that it would effect a positive change in the world. I came very close, but luckily I said the right thing at the right time to the right person, and I was able to get the help I needed. Now I shudder to think how badly killing myself would have damaged my family.
That's the trouble with delusion, it looks like truth from the inside.

Gassho, dudley
#sat

[Seido]

Like many here, I have been touched by suicide in different ways. Deep bows for those who have shared their stories, and to those who haven't but still have them in their heart.

One view point I didn't see mentioned here yet was self sacrifice.

If suicide was performed with clear mind as a means of compassionate self sacrifice to benefit other living beings, it could be considered by some to be different than suicide from dukkha. An example that comes to mind are the monks who self-immolated in protest of persecution in Vietnam. The goal of their suicide was to benefit others.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just saying.

Gassho,
Seido
SatToday

[Entai]

Seido,

That's an interesting point. I honestly don't know where I stand on that situation. Part of me gets what they were trying to do, another part wishes they had found another way to protest. Again, I wasn't in their position so I won't judge one way or another. I can only offer metta and hope that nobody needs to make that choice again.

Gassho, Entai
#SatToday

[Jundo]

May there be peace for Anneliese's brother, and for the family and friends he left behind.

And if anyone is ever considering suicide, or you ever know such a person, do speak to a suicide hotline or other professional counselor immediately. In my deepest depression in my teens and early twenties, I did consider suicide more than once ... although never acting upon such thoughts. I am very glad I did not, for I would not know this beautiful life now.

Earlier in this thread, I did post a couple of links that do approve (or have varied opinions) on suicide in the limited case of assisted suicide and the like for people in irreversible and intolerable conditions. Even so, that is to be considered the very very last resort.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...asuicide.shtml

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ADM/perrett.htm

In a famous old Sutta story, the Buddha does seem to have expressed understanding and tolerance for a suicide by an old sick monk who was truly in dire straights ...

Of all the suicide cases in the Pali Canon, the Chann’ovāda Sutta provides the strongest suggestion
that Buddhism appear to condone suicide under special circumstances. This seems to be the case with the
Chann‟ovāda Sutta in the Majjhima (M 144) and the Channa Sutta in the Sayutta (S 35.87). ...The Chann‟ovāda Sutta is about how the gravely ill Channa, despite the admonitions
of two brother monks, takes his own life. The Buddha, however, declares that his death is “without
blame” [13], since he died an arhat.
http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-...-m144-piya.pdf

That is a rare and extreme case, and most Buddhists would not accept suicide or euthenasia except in the most dire, hopeless, extreme circumstance where no other mental or physical option remains.

The self-burning by some Vietnamese, Chinese and Tibetan monks does have a long history, and was practiced by many. Not so much in Japanese Buddhism, as far as I am aware. Also, such actions were generally criticized by many other Buddhists. The Tricycle article cited states ...

In Chinese Buddhism, for example, self-immolation has a long and well-documented history. From written records, we know of several hundred Chinese Buddhist monks, nuns, and laypeople who offered up their bodies for a variety of reasons—though not usually in protest against the state—from the late 4th century to the present. The majority burned themselves to death, often in staged public spectacles. (Scholars use the term auto-cremation for this rather than the more common self-immolation, which means “self-sacrifice.”) The numerous accounts and discussions of self-immolation in Chinese records make it clear that many Buddhist authors did not condemn it as an aberrant or deviant practice but understood it as a bodily path to awakening. For Chinese Buddhists, in fact, auto-cremation belonged to a set of practices collectively known as “abandoning the body.” Besides burning themselves to death, such practitioners also let insects feed on their bodies, sliced off their own flesh, burned off fingers or arms, or burned incense on the skin.

...

Yijing (635–713), a famous Chinese pilgrim to India, wrote a lengthy critique of auto-cremation by monks. He claimed that monastic auto-cremators were overzealous practitioners who were unfamiliar with the range of Buddhist literature and had failed to realize that the Lotus Sutra’s exhortation to offer a finger or toe was intended only for laypeople. The monk’s first duty, he said, was to follow the Vinaya. There was also no shortage of objections to lay auto-cremation from both Buddhist authors and secular authorities.

Suicide or body torture is far removed from most forms of Zen Buddhism I know. While I can understand the sentiment behind it, whether done in someone's mind for spiritual or political reasons, I do not think it is the best way of either spiritual attainment or political protest at all. Better to live this life, and work to change this world for the better. I believe it better to honor the body, and not seek spiritual attainments in its abuse.

Gassho, J

SatToday

Like many here, I have been touched by suicide in different ways. Deep bows for those who have shared their stories, and to those who haven't but still have them in their heart.

One view point I didn't see mentioned here yet was self sacrifice.

If suicide was performed with clear mind as a means of compassionate self sacrifice to benefit other living beings, it could be considered by some to be different than suicide from dukkha. An example that comes to mind are the monks who self-immolated in protest of persecution in Vietnam. The goal of their suicide was to benefit others.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just saying.

Gassho,
Seido
SatToday

[Joyo]

Thank you, Jundo. I too have been at the same point you were.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Enjaku]

I just caught up with this thread.
Metta to all those affected by suicide and self harm.

I work with suicide every day as a therapist and I've experienced strong suicidal thoughts myself in the past. There can be a view in mental health that "if someone really wants to end their life, there's little you can do to stop them". In my experience, this is an unhelpful and dangerous view. People who survive suicide attempts very rarely feel the same after the event. The last time I was feeling suicidal, it was noticed by my friends. One friend in particular reached out with such compassion that she restored my will to keep going.

Suicide can blind us to the reality of impermanence. I try to help my clients see that life is always changing, sometimes stormy, sometimes sunny. In a heavy storm we need shelter and warmth while we allow it to pass.
This Sangha is also becoming a place of shelter for me.

Gassho,
Alex
Sat

[Jakuden]

Metta to all those touched by suicide or suidal feelings in themselves or friends/loved ones. If we understand the thinking behind someone wishing to commit suicide because of chronic physical pain, then we would have to also understand it in someone having severe or chronic mental pain. There's no way to really know that level of pain unless you've been there, and even then, how can one truly know what someone else is bearing.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Jishin]

Hi,

Sometimes suicide can be understood as a symptom of a body system that is not working as well as it should be. People do not chose to have certain parts of their body malfunction.

That said, right or wrong thinking or feelings has absolutely nothing to do with this symptom of a medical condition. It is a symptom that can lead to death if untreated. There are many other parts of the body that when malfunctioning have symptoms that may lead to death if not treated.

Suicide by in large is not a moral choice.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jakuden]

Wow, I went to post a link to this thread on FB and realized it has been read over 16,000 times over four years. Gives you an idea of how many of us have been touched by this subject, sadly. And, thank you Jishin and all those whose livelihood includes helping those with mental illness.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Shokai]

The high incidence of suicide was the one thing that caught my attention when I first entered the Funeral industry twenty-seven years ago. It's always been a very hush-hush subject and maybe it's time to really let it out. Especially that we are beginning to understand mental wellness better.

gassho,

sat Today

[Tom]

On self-harming, it's been helpful for me to learn a bit about the neurochemistry of depression and conditions such as borderline personality disorder, which accounts for some self-harming ie cutting behaviour. I've seen the meds save lives, particularly my bipolar friends. Call the pills a miracle.
At the same time, what is what we'd call garden variety 'Dhukka' seems to be increasingly diagnosed as depression; doctors are handing out anti-depressants like candy. Aren't we trying to work with the dhukka? Isn't it seductively dangerous to numb the dhukka if, for example, you're just world-weary? Mara would surely have loved to slip a young Siddartha some benzedrine and maybe Xanax.
All very topical as my 100-year-old Grandma went in for surgery this week, ticking 'do not revive' on the hospital form. She's been campaigning for the right to euthanasia for 20 years, making it clear she wanted to go out in a conscious state and not brain-impaired or not remembering her own name or her loved ones.
Gassho
Sat Today.

[Kyosei]

Have you ever heard of that?

Sokushinbutsu (即身仏?) refers to a practice of Buddhist monks observing austerity to the point of death and entering mummification while alive.[1] This process of self-mummification was mainly practiced in Yamagata in Northern Japan between the 11th and 19th century, by members of the Japanese Vajrayana school of Buddhism called Shingon ("True Word"). The practitioners of sokushinbutsu did not view this practice as an act of suicide, but rather as a form of further enlightenment.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu

Gassho

Marcos

#SatToday

[Jundo]

Have you ever heard of that?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu

Gassho

Marcos

#SatToday

Yes, there is such a mummy about 30 minutes by car from here, at an esoteric Shingon Buddhist temple. He was what they call a "living mummy", in that he prepared his body and began the mummification process while alive, and may have been buried alive as well (only to be dug up and put on display for the last few centuries). To my eyes, he seemed pretty much bones.

The basic idea was frowned upon by most historical Zen folks (not all) in Japan. It is much more common in Chan in China and Taiwan and such.

More here on Buddhist mummification and other relics (a bit graphic) ... Most were not "living mummies", but just folks who died and, because of the "purity" of their spritual practice while living, did not decay like the rest of us. Still, I find that most look a little less than healthy without a lot of help.

https://sites.google.com/site/philos...e/sariras.html

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Kyosei]

Thank you very much for the article, Jundo.

It's hard to think these man whose we have as references (even Hui-Neng!) were somewhat seduced by the idea of leaving their bodies as "relics", even knowing (for sure) there's no body, no relics...imperishable. Maybe this was a cultural habit?

Reading the article, they praise these masters whose didn't need nothing but some little ammount of the substances to get mummified, believing the process was a testimony of their habilities, their enlightenment. But wasn't it maybe just the climate conditions?

All of this made me think of a book I once read when I was younger, "The 3rd Vision", from Lobsang Rampa, in which he describes this same process (and covering the mummified master with gold plates) and when he had the opportunity to "see" his own "previous body", on the basements of the Potala Monastery in Tibet. Great book, even when I read later that it was considered a work of fiction by a middle-aged london writer...but how did he had such detailed descriptions...? great book.

Gassho

Marcos

#SatToday