Tugas Gunadarma Gunadarma Tutorial VB.NET Download OST Anime Soundtrack Anime Opening Anime Ending Anime OST Anime Japan Download Lagu Anime Jepang

Results 1 to 37 of 37

Thread: faust / zen

  1. #1

    faust / zen

    I've been toying with an idea for a while.. I've read, for instance, in Zen Seeds by Aoyama, that most people think that money will solve their problems, and they want more, more security, more material comforts. I catch myself really wanting that all the time in more subtle and novel ways. But Shakyamuni left being a king to be buddha. So I've been thinking, what if someone came and told me I could have $x, but I'd never have any possibility of receiving any teaching, any understanding whatsoever (and it is very little as it is, believe me) of buddhism. What would $x be? Bill Gates has $61B, Warren Buffet has $44B. Would I really turn that down if it was offered to me? Or not? I'd never have any sense of shikantaza. Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this. Along the same lines, do we think our lives are better than Bill and Warren's because we have the opportunity to learn some buddhism?

    -Neal
    Last edited by nealc; 10-06-2012 at 02:55 AM.

  2. #2
    Yes, very clear thoughts. Leave these two guys where they are it is none of our business to discuss their fortune or happiness.
    Money would create more problems than it could solve. Same with fame.
    Simplicity is best, poverty or work to get the opportunity to practice and enough to live and have extras from time to time.
    Our lives are not better or worse, they are different. And sometimes identical (we all have a body-mind).

    A better life is what the American dream and its modern avatars are based on: try to get what the guy next door doesn t have. Always compare and see who is the richest, the tallest, the most powerful...

    A total loss of time and absolute delusion.

    gassho


    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    Yes, very clear thoughts. Leave these two guys where they are it is none of our business to discuss their fortune or happiness.
    Money would create more problems than it could solve. Same with fame.
    Simplicity is best, poverty or work to get the opportunity to practice and enough to live and have extras from time to time.
    Our lives are not better or worse, they are different. And sometimes identical (we all have a body-mind).

    A better life is what the American dream and its modern avatars are based on: try to get what the guy next door doesn t have. Always compare and see who is the richest, the tallest, the most powerful...

    A total loss of time and absolute delusion.

    gassho


    Taigu
    Thank you Taigu.

    Gassho
    Michael
    真 眼

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  4. #4
    Senior Member pinoybuddhist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Davao City, Philippines
    Posts
    383
    Indeed.

    Life with money: dukkha
    Life without money: dukkha

    The real treasure is the Triple Gem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    Yes, very clear thoughts. Leave these two guys where they are it is none of our business to discuss their fortune or happiness...

    Our lives are not better or worse, they are different. And sometimes identical (we all have a body-mind).

    A better life is what the American dream and its modern avatars are based on: try to get what the guy next door doesn t have. Always compare and see who is the richest, the tallest, the most powerful...

    A total loss of time and absolute delusion.

    gassho


    Taigu

    Raf

  5. #5
    disastermouse
    Guest
    I think some of us may be forgetting the rich, famous, and powerful patrons that Buddhism has had throughout the ages. If we think of money and attaining it as evil, then only the evil will ever have any, and with it, THEY will continue to dictate the way the world works.

  6. #6
    Chasing wealth and fame is senseless .... greed and narcissism. But IMHO at the other extreme, there is no virtue in valuing poverty (or romanticising it) at the expense of your family's health and well being. A simple life is one thing, but poverty damages people. Also, shrinking from public attention if it comes, along with greater responsibility, can be just as narcissistic as pursuing attention.

    Gassho. kojip
    大山

  7. #7
    disastermouse
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojip View Post
    Chasing wealth and fame is senseless .... greed and narcissism. But IMHO at the other extreme, there is no virtue in valuing poverty (or romanticising it) at the expense of your family's health and well being. A simple life is one thing, but poverty damages people. Also, shrinking from public attention if it comes, along with greater responsibility, can be just as narcissistic as pursuing attention.

    Gassho. kojip
    Yes. I didn't mean to negate what Taigu said, BTW. I think you put it much better than I did.

    Chet

  8. #8
    Some have more, some have less. We don't envy the rich nor pity the poor. Help all as conditions allow.

    We work to take care of our financial responsibilities. Even buddhas monks had to work. Begging is worrk. Buddha dined and socialized to get benefactors and supporters.

    Its all to support life and practice. Keep it simple as taigu said.

    You don't really have anything and even if you did it can all go to pieces tomorrow. But buddha did say to save some of your wealth.

  9. #9
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Mexico
    Posts
    2,713
    I've been a Buddhist for 16 years, but I never understood anything of it. Sure, I sat eventually and read those wonderful hardcover books with inspirational quotes. But really had no idea what they were about.

    At the same time, I used to worship all the great entrepreneurs in media. I needed to be the next rich guy in town. Compassion and giving? What? That was for losers!

    I was like those young executives in movies who would give everything (and did!) to get the next clothes/gadget/car/trip. My mind was too busy buying crap I didn't need and avidly desiring the next item to get or paycheck. When money flows, you get friends everywhere!

    I drank every single drop of the capitalist Kool-Aid. And I thought I was happy.

    Until 5 years ago, when I lost it all.

    One day I woke up to see I didn't have a home, car, job, money, food and I owned only the clothes I was wearing. If it wasn't for my sister and her endless compassion and love, I would've ended living in the streets.

    That's when I started to sit regularly. Every day.

    Instead of getting all emo and depressed for my fall, I simply started to live for the moment. I knew first hand that everything material, everything you believe is safe and secure, is just an illusion and can go in a second. Like Taigu said, a waste of time.

    One meal had, if only was peanuts (literally), turned into the best meal in the universe. An afternoon walking in the park, turned into the best holiday ever.

    I started to savor every single moment in life and at the same time, the little dharma I read over the years started to make sense, little by little.

    I saw my fall as a much needed chance to rebuild my life from scratch.

    How I live now? I moved to a smaller city, opened a very modest graphic design business and I have a very poor life. I only have what I need to live. I don't want anything more than that.

    But now I'm happy. I take care of my mind and body and my practice is everything... but at the same time I practice so I don't hold on to anything.

    Just a couple of days ago I spent a couple of hours sitting at the subway station, waiting for someone. I was just there, enjoying the air, the wartmth of the afternoon sun light on my back and people passing by. It was a perfect moment and everything I have ever needed was there.

    So... do I need more money? No I don't. A little extra would be fine, but it's not the basis of my happiness.

    Do I miss the corporate life? Not one bit.

    For today, at this moment, with a nice cup of coffee, watching the night turn into day from my window... This is all I need.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

  10. #10
    Senior Member Koshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mexico City
    Posts
    1,006
    I find myself wanting less and less material things as I sit and study harder... and I think that indeed simplicity is best... yet, I am married with no children... this point of view may work and make sense to me, but maybe not to my wife, and I am sure it would be a BIG problem if we had kids.... maybe it is the responsability over other humans (kids, aging parents) and the team work and prior commitments (partners in life) what drives us to think we need more money and the sense of security it comes with.... I am happy with my $20 shoes I wear all the time, my wife hates them (she is pro-$200+ shoes ), I don't need anything (car, house, gadgets) to feel better than anyone, but at the same time, I try to have a good finance system, not spend money in anything I don't need and try to save the 30% of my income for the future, when I will be an Old Zen Master

    Gassho
    ______________________________
    Kōshin / Leo



    P.S. Yup, I know, my English sucks

  11. #11
    Treeleaf Unsui Yugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Midcoast Maine
    Posts
    1,851
    Blog Entries
    2
    Taigu wrote: Simplicity is best, poverty or work to get the opportunity to practice and enough to live and have extras from time to time.
    Our lives are not better or worse, they are different. And sometimes identical (we all have a body-mind).

    A better life is what the American dream and its modern avatars are based on: try to get what the guy next door doesn t have. Always compare and see who is the richest, the tallest, the most powerful...

    A total loss of time and absolute delusion.


    Kyonin wrote: So... do I need more money? No I don't. A little extra would be fine, but it's not the basis of my happiness.

    Do I miss the corporate life? Not one bit.

    For today, at this moment, with a nice cup of coffee, watching the night turn into day from my window... This is all I need.




    Zen macroeconomics! Thank you Taigu and Kyonin - adding the metric of desire/delusion to the supply and demand equation!

    Kyonin, I really appreciate your post. I too was in pursuit of salary, title, and self importance for years..... it led me to all sorts of excess of ego, emotion, and consumption. It came crashing down because I could not continue to live the way I did - I live far more simply today - more happily - with balance - and zazen is a central component of my day. It is absolutelty worthless. :-)

    I am enjoying a hot cup of coffee and watching the wind play with the autumn leaves - some cling to the branches, others let go. Life/death ... death/life ...

    Deep bows,
    Yugen
    Last edited by Yugen; 10-06-2012 at 01:27 PM.
    Please take all my comments with a grain of salt - I am a novice priest and anything I say is to be taken with a good dose of skepticism - Shodo Yugen

  12. #12
    Senior Member Nenka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Central Illinois, USA
    Posts
    1,004
    It is funny to read this thread this morning, which I have just spent going to neighborhood yard sales. All the shit people just had to have a year ago . . . two years ago . . . ten . . . all laid out with price tags of a dollar or two.

    Gassho

    Jen
    The result is not the point; it is the effort to improve ourselves that is valuable. There is no end to this practice. --Shunryu Suzuki

  13. #13
    disastermouse
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Nenka View Post
    It is funny to read this thread this morning, which I have just spent going to neighborhood yard sales. All the shit people just had to have a year ago . . . two years ago . . . ten . . . all laid out with price tags of a dollar or two.

    Gassho

    Jen
    Although it does increase consumer debt, the clamor for consumer goods isn't what messed us up in 2008. When goods get too expensive, demand does eventually drop. When assets increase in price (such as the housing market) it actually drives demand higher. Gains on assets drive demand for assets because of the gains - and then you get a bubble and a bust.

    We shouldn't focus on money, IMHO, but if you make more money, you can then give more money - affecting causes and lives that the market rarely serves.

    Chet
    Last edited by disastermouse; 10-07-2012 at 09:11 AM.

  14. #14
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Mexico
    Posts
    2,713
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse View Post
    We shouldn't focus on money, IMHO, but if you make more money, you can then give more money - affecting causes and lives that the market rarely serves.
    I totally agree and it would be fantastic that people who make a lot of money understood this. Our egos are so huge and we center ourselves in having/owning/buying that we totally forget about other people, thus making it impossible to see human needs outside our nose.

    Now I only make a small fraction of what I did in the past, but it is now when I am able to see and give.

    Strange, I know.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

  15. #15
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Mexico
    Posts
    2,713
    Would you live without money? Would you be willing to give away everything you own in order to break free from the system?

    Some adventurous and brave people like Heidemarie Schwermer have been doing it for years and have a lot to say: http://livingwithoutmoney.org/

    Would I live without money? I don't know. The idea it's too radical, but I admit it does sound attractive to me.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

  16. #16
    Thanks for all the discussion. I too understand, intellectually, that the money can't bring joy or happiness, whereas the teachings can help one accept life and its troubles, which can be more valuable. But in reality, I personally would have difficulty turning down $61B and going to work the next day and telling my kids that they too will have to work for most of their lives and so on because I feel it's better to sit on a folded blanket (haven't sprung the $90 for a real zafu) for no gain for some minutes every day. Might not I be acting selfishly in that sense, in grasping for my zazen time instead of throwing it away?

    Perhaps I appreciate the zen in my mind, but not in my marrow, you might say. My kids and I may very well be better off without the money, so they don't wind up like any number of rich celebrities who go to drugs etc. But nobody directly said they would turn eg $61B down and go sit on their cushion, no regrets, which is the Faustian question. Neither did anyone say they would take the money.
    Last edited by nealc; 10-07-2012 at 03:26 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse View Post
    Although it does increase consumer debt, the clamor for consumer goods isn't what messed us up in 2008. When goods get too expensive, demand does eventually drop. When assets increase in price (such as the housing market) it actually drives demand higher. Gains on assets drive demand for assets because of the gains - and then you get a bubble and a bust.

    We shouldn't focus on money, IMHO, but if you make more money, you can then give more money - affecting causes and lives that the market rarely serves.

    Chet
    I agree with this. I also think that if one is financially successful, that shouldn't be a barrier to anything either. It's just another condition of this life, they aren't mutually exclusive. I just don't understand living an awakened life or being wealthy as an either or condition. Shakyamuni's path also taught that we shouldn't hold to one extreme. One needn't grasp for wealth, but if they happen to wealthy, I don't see that necessarily as a barrier either. If someone gave you lots of money and said you'd never gain understanding, then they'd be a liar. Just by living life and being aware you are going to gain understanding. It's only us that stand in our own way of that; no one can prevent you from that; any more than one needs another's approval; we all think for ourselves. And just as we shouldn't grasp or push away thoughts or try to add or remove anything, why push away material gain? Again, we shouldn't grasp at it in the spirit of greed.

    Right now there is a trend towards "minimalist" lifestyles which are great. But where one draws the line in minimalism is a personal choice, and I don't agree that oh wow I own this and that, that's "bad". That's just another construct we place in our minds. It too can be another prison toward grasping. I find it interesting that "minimalists" blog. "Oh I don't own a computer, I use one at the local internet cafe." I just find it funny.. What one considers minimalist, another may consider wealth. I think there can be value in frugality, I personally live by frugality as well, but turning it into another thing to grasp, another religion (which we are so good at), is just another form of grasping or greed, although it may be much more subtle. So you own a lot of stuff. So what? Why does it bother you so much? That I find more interesting. But we often want to up and remove everything we own. I say, you know what, I happen to like my stuff. There are memories there. It doesn't mean that I'm owned by my stuff. If it got stolen it wouldn't be the end of my world. I don't need to participate in any more of extremism (minimalism or gluttony) to sate my ego. And I think that this trend in minimalism is another ego booster under the covers. Not always, but I think it can be another ego toy to distract us... the same as mindlessly buying stuff is.

    There is nothing more inherently "zen" or whatever one wants to call it about being poor than rich. Just two sides of the same coin. We may romanticize poverty as a doorway to some enlightened bs state, but we usually do that while we are sipping our latte's.

    Sacredness and mundanity... what is not sacred? The same thing with wealth.. That's like saying we need to retreat to the mountains to really practice. Bull. Practice is right with us now.. even though we might romanticize otherwise. If we can't find practice wherever we are, in the subway or at home in the suburbs with all of our stuff, then we can't find it anywhere.

    Gassho,

    Risho

    PS I also believe the american dream is a delusion. Grasping at or pushing away is delusion: ideas, material items, anything.
    Last edited by Risho; 10-07-2012 at 04:57 PM.

  18. #18
    Are we grasping for economic security, because the inner security that comes from knowing one's true nature is missing?

    Are we grasping for material comforts, because we don't feel comfortable with ourselves and look for something outside ourselves to make us more comfortable?

    I think so.

    Having enough money to put food on the table every day takes away a lot of anxiety, but after the basic needs are covered, the endless chase after more and more may instead become a cause for stress and anxiety. More comforts don't improve our happiness in the long run, only briefly. We soon get used to them and find other imagined needs to fulfill. Economic security doesn't take away the inner sense of insecurity either, the Dukkha. Instead, money may lead to more anxiety. Suddenly you worry about stock market quotes instead of enjoying your economic security. Money can be used wisely, but can also make one's life more complicated in so many ways.

    Gassho,
    Pontus
    In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
    you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
    now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
    the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

  19. #19
    Senior Member Hoyu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,024
    Hi All,

    Just wanted chime in one this one

    First off we aren't rich and our family of 4 lives off the $31,000 I make a year! However, we are fortunate that my wife's father(who grew up poor and with so little education he didn't even learn to read) made himself into a rich man. He passed on before I met my wife but his hard work has been far reaching. Our lives have been made so much more comfortable in so many ways because of him! Though he has passed from this visible world, he is still supporting generations of families! And that is exactly what drove him to work so hard to make lots of money in the first place. He used his wealth to take care of the lives of his family, employees and their families, buisness partners, and the country. In fact my wife once told me that he loved his country so much that he was happy to make lots of money so he could pay more and more taxes!
    Money, in and of itself, is really nothing more than a tool. Like any tool it's possesor can choose to use it to hurt....or help countless beings!

    Gassho,
    Hoyu
    Ho (Dharma)
    Yu (Hot Water)

  20. #20
    disastermouse
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by gongli View Post
    Thanks for all the discussion. I too understand, intellectually, that the money can't bring joy or happiness, whereas the teachings can help one accept life and its troubles, which can be more valuable. But in reality, I personally would have difficulty turning down $61B and going to work the next day and telling my kids that they too will have to work for most of their lives and so on because I feel it's better to sit on a folded blanket (haven't sprung the $90 for a real zafu) for no gain for some minutes every day. Might not I be acting selfishly in that sense, in grasping for my zazen time instead of throwing it away?

    Perhaps I appreciate the zen in my mind, but not in my marrow, you might say. My kids and I may very well be better off without the money, so they don't wind up like any number of rich celebrities who go to drugs etc. But nobody directly said they would turn eg $61B down and go sit on their cushion, no regrets, which is the Faustian question. Neither did anyone say they would take the money.
    Better in relation to what? Suppose you could grant your children a life free from toil with the $61 billion. Can you grant them freedom from fear of their inevitable old age, disease, and death? The loss of friends and family?

    Also, the money itself isn't the better part of what causes 'successful' people to esteem themselves highly, if in fact they do. It's the journey from average to above-average that brings the most satisfaction - the costs paid, the determination and skills required, etc. Truly, it is an egoic game of achievement - but the game is the achievement, not the actual money. The money is only the 'score'.

    I would turn down $61 billion if it meant I could no longer practice zazen.

    Chet

  21. #21
    This may be a good time to repost some of the Buddha's advice to householders on wealth. The Buddha did teach one path for homeleavers ... having nothing much besides a robe on their back and a begging bowl. But he also taught another path for lay folks on whom Buddha & the Band depended to supply the robes, offer land for the monasteries, put food in those bowls.

    Buddha's basic point comes down to ... if one has wealth, use it for good purposes ... don't live to excess ... and don't be attached. Zen traditionally values also the simple, intangible treasures of life ... the things which money cannot buy.

    In the Dighajanu Sutta, when the lay man Dighajanu asked the Buddha on how to have “happiness & well-being” in this life, the Buddha offered the following advice;

    [The Blessed One said:] "There are these four qualities ... that lead to a lay person's happiness and well-being in this life. Which four? Being consummate in initiative, being consummate in vigilance, admirable friendship, and maintaining one's livelihood in tune.

    "And what does it mean to be consummate in initiative? There is the case where a lay person, by whatever occupation he makes his living — whether by farming or trading or cattle tending or archery or as a king's man or by any other craft — is clever and untiring at it, endowed with discrimination in its techniques, enough to arrange and carry it out. This is called being consummate in initiative.

    "And what does it mean to be consummate in vigilance? There is the case when a lay person has righteous wealth — righteously gained, coming from his initiative, his striving, his making an effort, gathered by the strength of his arm, earned by his sweat — he manages to protect it through vigilance [with the thought], 'How shall neither kings nor thieves make off with this property of mine, nor fire burn it, nor water sweep it away, nor hateful heirs make off with it?' This is called being consummate in vigilance.

    "And what is meant by admirable friendship? There is the case where a lay person, in whatever town or village he may dwell, spends time with householders or householders' sons, young or old, who are advanced in virtue. He talks with them, engages them in discussions. He emulates consummate conviction in those who are consummate in conviction, consummate virtue in those who are consummate in virtue, consummate generosity in those who are consummate in generosity, and consummate discernment in those who are consummate in discernment. This is called admirable friendship.

    "And what does it mean to maintain one's livelihood in tune? There is the case where a lay person, knowing the income and outflow of his wealth, maintains a livelihood in tune, neither a spendthrift nor a penny-pincher, [thinking], 'Thus will my income exceed my outflow, and my outflow will not exceed my income.' Just as when a weigher or his apprentice, when holding the scales, knows, 'It has tipped down so much or has tipped up so much,' in the same way, the lay person, knowing the income and outflow of his wealth, maintains a livelihood in tune, neither a spendthrift nor a penny-pincher, [thinking], 'Thus will my income exceed my outflow, and my outflow will not exceed my income.' If a lay person has a small income but maintains a grand livelihood, it will be rumored of him, 'This clansman devours his wealth like a fruit-tree eater.' If a lay person has a large income but maintains a miserable livelihood, it will be rumored of him, 'This clansman will die of starvation.' But when a lay person, knowing the income and outflow of his wealth, maintains a livelihood in tune, neither a spendthrift nor a penny-pincher, [thinking], 'Thus will my income exceed my outflow, and my outflow will not exceed my income,' this is called maintaining one's livelihood in tune.

    "These are the four drains on one's store of wealth: debauchery in sex; debauchery in drink; debauchery in gambling; and evil friendship, evil companionship, evil camaraderie. Just as if there were a great reservoir with four inlets and four drains, and a man were to close the inlets and open the drains, and the sky were not to pour down proper showers, the depletion of that great reservoir could be expected, not its increase. In the same way, these are the four drains on one's store of wealth: debauchery in sex; debauchery in drink; debauchery in gambling; and evil friendship, evil companionship, evil camaraderie.

    ...

    "There are these four qualities that lead to a lay person's happiness and well-being in lives to come. Which four? Being consummate in conviction, being consummate in virtue, being consummate in generosity, being consummate in discernment.

    "And what does it mean to be consummate in conviction? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones has conviction, is convinced of the Tathagata's Awakening: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge and conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine and human beings, awakened, blessed.' This is called being consummate in conviction.

    "And what does it mean to be consummate in virtue? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking life, abstains from stealing, abstains from illicit sexual conduct, abstains from lying, abstains from taking intoxicants that cause heedlessness. This is called being consummate in virtue.

    "And what does it mean to be consummate in generosity? There is the case of a disciple of the noble ones, his awareness cleansed of the stain of miserliness, living at home, freely generous, openhanded, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to requests, delighting in the distribution of alms. This is called being consummate in generosity.

    "And what does it mean to be consummate in discernment? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising and passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of [Dukkha suffering]. This is called being consummate in discernment


    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....054.than.html
    Last edited by Jundo; 10-08-2012 at 02:30 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  22. #22
    Thank you for this Jundo, great stuff.

    Gassho
    Michael
    真 眼

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  23. #23
    By the way, a monastery promised a life of frugality, simplicity, lack of personal property ...

    But I think it would be a mistake to think that the wandering monks of India 2500 years ago, or the monks of China, Tibet and Japan in centuries past, lived necessarily uncomfortable lives ... by the standards of the times anyway. Being a monk was not necessarily "giving it all away" to live in total hunger and poverty ... by the standards to the times anyway.

    Think about it: In a world without cars, color television, ipods ... it was not like people "gave up all that" to enter the monastery, for nobody had them to start with!

    A monastery promised room and board, good companionship, stable food, health care and dentistry (as it existed at the time, anyway), some social position, basic education, not to mention a stimulating intellectual and spiritual environment. Monks personally owned little perhaps ... but there were ways for monks to keep some personal property "off the books", and vast land holdings and other property was owned by the community, much like a Kibbutz or commune. Sure, there may have been folks like Gautama Buddha who walked away from the harem and palace to enter the monastery ... but for most folks, the alternative was working as a peasant or serf, hand to mouth in a trade, dying in bloody military service. A high percentage of the monks seem to have been the second or third sons of wealthy families who were "on their own" after the first son inherited dad's fiefdom. Even being a "rich person" in those days meant insecurity, and a life of struggle and "doing without the conveniences" by modern standards. The Chinese, Tibetan and Japanese government actually had to make rules for keeping people out of the monasteries ... cause so many wanted to get in and escape their life of toil and troubles.

    In old India and South Asia, where folks were willing to fill a bowl whenever you knocked at their door, where the weather was temperate, one could simply sleep under a tree in the forest (except in the rainy season when monks would gather together under roofs). Yes, the monks would not eat a bite after noon ... but they got up with the cock crow, so that was already late in their day.

    Sure, there were times at Eiheiji and other places where the donations were running low, when the pantry was empty and the monks went to bed hungry ... but that was usually at times when all the surrounding economy was in trouble, so the donations dried up. In other words, there may have been hunger in the monastery ... but you should have seen what was probably going on outside the monastery doors, with real hunger and plague among the general population!

    Thus Buddha wrote many places in the Suttas ... "Household life is crowded and dusty; life gone forth is wide open."

    A very interesting read is this critique of monk culture in South Asia by Ven. Shravasti Dhammika, a westerner who is himself now a Theravada monk. This is from his book ...


    ‘Boredom, no doubt, accounts for the inordinate amount
    of sleeping one sees in monasteries - monks are forever taking naps - as well as for the dullness and
    apathy frequently encountered in them. I suspect too, that those...who practice alchemy, medicine,
    exorcism and...politics, do so not only for the intrinsic interest of the subject, but as an escape from
    the tedium of monastic living. Similarly, boredom probably accounts for the great interest monks
    show in visitors.’ Others take a different escape route. In a survey of monks in Thailand
    anthropologist J. C. Ingersoll found that boredom was the main reason why young men left the
    Sangha. When Somerset Maugham was traveling through Burma he had an interpreter who had
    spent time in a monastery during his youth. Maugham asked him what he thought of the monk’s
    life. ‘He shrugged his shoulders. “There was nothing to do”, he said. “Two hours work in the
    morning and there were prayers at night, but all the rest of the day nothing. I was glad when the
    time came for me to go home again.”’ And of those who stay behind their natural youthful
    exuberance is gradually crushed under the weight of tradition and of having lay people doing
    everything for them, and before long they begin doing what he sees the older monks doing - they
    sleep.
    You could hardly believe it possible for human beings to sleep so much until you’ve spent time in a
    Theravada monastery. The most enduring images I have of my years in monasteries is of Burmese
    monks dozing in chairs while their devotees massage their feet, of Thai monks lying flat on their
    backs snoring at ten in the morning and of somnolent old nayaka hamdarus in Sri Lanka getting out
    of bed for lunch and going straight back again after it is over. The English monk Phra Peter relates
    an amusing incident he witnessed when a junior monk was paying respects to his senior with the
    traditional three bows. The first bow went okay, the second was somewhat slower and during the
    third bow the monk drifted off and remained fast asleep on the floor. This pervasive slothfulness is
    a logical consequence of the Vinaya notion that monks must have everything done for them To
    quote Spiro again. ‘Almost all his needs are satisfied by others, without his doing - or being
    permitted to do - anything on his own behalf. As we have seen, he does no work; he does not earn
    his own bread; even if he wants to, he cannot so much as pour his tea or lift his serving bowl, let
    alone tend his garden or repair his monastery. Everything he needs must be given to him by others;
    everything that he desires must be provided him by others. Moreover, others not only must provide
    for the monk, but in fact they do provide for him, and - as we have seen - with lavish hand’ (italics
    in the original).
    The almost complete absence of physical exercise coupled with the rich diet is probably the reason
    for the abnormally high incidence of diabetes amongst older Sri Lankan monks. A study released in
    2002 showed that the leading cause of death amongst Thai monks was smoking related illnesses.
    Having little else to do they while away their time sleeping, chatting and puffing on Klongtips [cigarettes].
    http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaf...nbuddhanew.pdf

    His blog:

    http://sdhammika.blogspot.jp/

    Because of changes in the economic system for monasteries in China, Korea and Japan, the Northern Asian monasteries emphasized work and physical labor more then the South Asian traditions. If the monks did not grow some vegetables, they did not eat. The saying was "A day without work, is a day with eating". At a few wonderful monasteries in Japan today, such as Antaiji, the practitioners are expected to spend as much time in mud picking vegetables as on the Zafu. However, even then, most of the economic support for the monks in most Chinese, Korean and Japanese monasteries seems to have come from donations or from the labor of poor serfs who worked on temple owned lands ... not from the monks themselves.

    http://eh.net/content/sacred-economi...dieval-china-0

    Yes, value frugality, simplicity, the intangible treasures in life. However, do so whether in the monastery or in your own living room!

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 10-08-2012 at 04:13 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Yes, value frugality, simplicity, the intangible treasures in life. However, do so whether in the monastery or in your own living room!


    Gassho
    Michael
    真 眼

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  25. #25
    Some of the best guidance on living moderately and non-attached ... whether with much money or little ... is from Buddha via Master Dogen in Shobogenzo Hachi-Dainingaku ... outlining important points of our Practice.

    Dogen Zenji writes:


    The first is having few desires. Not pursuing intensively the things we
    have not yet gained among the objects of the five senses is called "having few desires"

    The Buddha said,

    Monks, you should know that people who have many
    desires avariciously seek after fame and wealth; therefore
    they experience great suffering and anguish. Those who have
    few desires, because they have nothing to pursue and desire,
    are free from such troubles. Having few desires is itself worth
    learning and practicing. All the more so, as it gives birth
    to various virtues. Those who have few deslres do not flatterŽ
    to gain others' favor Also, they are not pulled by their
    desire for gain. The mind of those who practice having few
    desires is peaceful, without any worries or fears. They are
    always affluent with whatever they have and never have a
    sense of insufficiency. Those who have few desires experience
    nirvana. This is called “few desires"


    The second is to know satisfaction. Even among things
    which have already been given, you set a limit for taking
    them. This is called“knowing satisfaction.''

    The Buddha said,

    “Monks, if you want to be free from suffering and
    anguish, you should contemplate knowing how much is
    enough. The dharma of knowing satisfaction is the place of
    richness, joy, peace, and calm. Those who know satisfaction,
    even when they lie down on bare ground, still consider it
    comfortable and joyful. Those who don't know satisfaction
    are discontented even when they live in a heavenly palace.
    Those who do not know satisfaction are poor even if they
    have much wealth. Those who know satisfaction are rich
    even if they are poor. Those who don't know satisfaction
    are constantly pulled by the five sense desires and pitied
    by those who know satisfaction. This is called `knowing
    satlsfactlon”.
    Last edited by Jundo; 10-08-2012 at 09:41 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  26. #26
    Junior Member SDorje's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Grand Canyon , Arizona
    Posts
    2
    I believe it was in a book I read years ago named "What the Buddha Taught" that there was actually some guidelines for lay practitioners by the Buddha on percentages of money/goods that should be used in certain ways and for certain expenses. It was kind of interesting.....Now I need to find the book!!!!

  27. #27
    Hi SD,

    I think this is the portion of the book you mean. "What the Buddha Taught" presents an interpretation of "What the Buddha Taught" primarily from one Theravadan perspective, but is a very good book. (pp 83-84, my highlights):

    A man named Dighajanu once visited the Buddha and said:
    'Venerable Sir, we are ordinary lay men, leading the family life
    with wife and children. Would the Blessed One teach us some
    doctrines which will be conducive to our happiness in this world
    and hereafter.'
    The Buddha tells him that there are four things which are
    conducive to a man's happiness in this world: First: he should
    be skilled, efficient, earnest, and energetic in whatever profession
    he is engaged, and he should know it well (uttbana-sampada);
    second: he should protect his income, which he has thus earned
    righteously, with the sweat of his brow (arakkba-sampadd); (This
    refers to protecting wealth from thieves, etc. All these ideas should
    be considered against the background of the period.) third: he
    should have good friends (kalyana-mitta) who are faithful,
    learned, virtuous, liberal and intelligent, who will help him along
    the right path away from evil; fourth: he should spend reasonably,
    in proportion to his income, neither too much nor too little,
    i.e., he should not hoard wealth avariciously, nor should he be
    extravagant—in other words he should live within his means
    (samajivikata).
    Then the Buddha expounds the four virtues conducive to a
    layman's happiness hereafter: (i) Saddha: he should have faith
    and confidence in moral, spiritual and intellectual values; (2)
    S i / a : he should abstain from destroying and harming life, from
    stealing and cheating, from adultery, from falsehood, and from
    intoxicating drinks; (3) Caga: he should practise charity,
    generosity, without attachment and craving for his wealth; (4)
    Patina: he should develop wisdom which leads to the complete
    destruction of suffering, to the realization of Nirvana.
    Sometimes the Buddha even went into details about saving
    money and spending it, as, for instance, when he told the young
    man Sigala that he should spend one fourth of his income on his
    daily expenses, invest half in his business and put aside one fourth
    for any emergency.

    Once the Buddha told Anathapindika, the great banker, one of
    his most devoted lay disciples who founded for him the celebrated
    Jetavana monastery at Savatthi, that a layman, who leads an
    ordinary family life, has four kinds of happiness. The first
    happiness is to enjoy economic security or sufficient wealth
    acquired by just and righteous means (attki-sukha); the second is
    spending that wealth liberally on himself, his family, his friends
    and relatives, and on meritorious deeds (bhoga-sukha); the third to
    be free from debts (anana-sukha); the fourth happiness is to live a
    faultless, and a pure life without committing evil in thought, word
    or deed (anavajja-sukha). It must be noted here that three of these
    kinds are economic, and that the Buddha finally reminded the
    banker that economic and material happiness is 'not worth one
    sixteenth part' of the spiritual happiness arising out of a faultless
    and good life.
    From the few examples given above, one could see that the
    Buddha considered economic welfare as requisite for human
    happiness, but that he did not recognize progress as real and true
    if it was only material, devoid of a spiritual and moral foundation.
    While encouraging material progress, Buddhism always lays
    great stress on the development of the moral and spiritual
    character for a happy, peaceful and contented society.
    http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=_...page&q&f=false
    Last edited by Jundo; 10-09-2012 at 02:08 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  28. #28
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mormon Country
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi View Post
    Are we grasping for economic security, because the inner security that comes from knowing one's true nature is missing?

    Are we grasping for material comforts, because we don't feel comfortable with ourselves and look for something outside ourselves to make us more comfortable?

    I think so.

    Having enough money to put food on the table every day takes away a lot of anxiety, but after the basic needs are covered, the endless chase after more and more may instead become a cause for stress and anxiety. More comforts don't improve our happiness in the long run, only briefly. We soon get used to them and find other imagined needs to fulfill. Economic security doesn't take away the inner sense of insecurity either, the Dukkha. Instead, money may lead to more anxiety. Suddenly you worry about stock market quotes instead of enjoying your economic security. Money can be used wisely, but can also make one's life more complicated in so many ways.

    Gassho,
    Pontus


    Thank you, Pontus.
    Nothing Special

  29. #29
    Senior Member Nindo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    755
    I thank everybody for their sincere personal stories. As for the original question - why speculate? Why hold yourself up with something like this? There are so many choices right in front of us that HAVE to be made and will have an impact. That's what we learn as we study for Jukai.
    Which job will you take? What will you spend money on? Is it wiser to buy another Dharma book or donate that amount? And so on. I think that's what everybody was pointing at, instead of "answering" the hypothetical question.

    As for the original Faust tale, I think Gretchen should have stuck with her decision to go home alone!!

  30. #30
    Senior Member YuimaSLC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Salt Lake City Utah
    Posts
    111
    Jundo and/or Taigu,

    What can you tell us about Vimalakirti, a contemporary of Shakamuni Buddha, who is oft presented as the great lay buddhist, with wealth and all.

    I often think that a companion to the 'golden rule' is 'need what you take, take what you need' approach to materialism. And being willing to ask an honest question of
    "do I really need that?" and an honest resolve to that ongoing question.

    We often see overt reaction, in this country, to any talk of increased taxation to help others. And most people think that taking away a little more from one's own pockets is
    an intolerable compromise. Yet, when we look at what people have, what they accumulate, what they are willing to pay for a pair of jeans, or how often they replace their computer
    or cell phone with the latest-and-greatest version.....in fact, there seems to a significant amount of disposable income in this nation. Alot.

    Gassho

    Richard

  31. #31
    Thank you one and all for this interesting post and for everybody's comments on this subject. These ideas of money and possessions have been in the back of my mind for quite some time; especially since this past January after my mother had passed and even more so now that I will become a father in a few weeks.

    I love my mom with all my heart but she was terrible with money. What made this matter worse was that she was often left in charge of the household finances. Both of my parents are/were disabled and we lived on a fixed income. Every fight I can remember my parents having involved money. Mom would secretly take out payday loans from multiple locations around town for extra cash. She was not the kind of person to ask for help or to say that she was in a bind and needed help. I don't know if it was pride or shame, but when she had passed the skeletons came out of the closet. My parent's house was nearly a year behind on its mortgage; the phone was shut off and the power was going to be turned off any day. Between the funeral costs and getting my dad on his feet, it took nearly everything that myself, my wife Nicole and my Uncle had to get things at least stable for the moment. Thankfully I can say that right now my dad is doing well and Nicole and I are doing okay.

    Once concept I would like to express to my daughter is that money is neither the cause or solution to problems. Looking back I know now that my parent's fights were less about money and more about communication, honesty and balancing household duties. My dad never took the time to be involved with paying bills and the household finances and that was his fault. And mom was never able to ask for help when she needed it.

    Probably like the majority of people here all I really want is enough to be comfortable; have a roof over my head, food on the table, bills paid and maybe a little left over for a r
    rainy day.

    I apologize if I went off on a separate tangent; just kind of let the spirit take me .

    Thank you and Gassho,

    Josh

  32. #32
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mormon Country
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by jlewis View Post
    Thank you one and all for this interesting post and for everybody's comments on this subject. These ideas of money and possessions have been in the back of my mind for quite some time; especially since this past January after my mother had passed and even more so now that I will become a father in a few weeks.

    I love my mom with all my heart but she was terrible with money. What made this matter worse was that she was often left in charge of the household finances. Both of my parents are/were disabled and we lived on a fixed income. Every fight I can remember my parents having involved money. Mom would secretly take out payday loans from multiple locations around town for extra cash. She was not the kind of person to ask for help or to say that she was in a bind and needed help. I don't know if it was pride or shame, but when she had passed the skeletons came out of the closet. My parent's house was nearly a year behind on its mortgage; the phone was shut off and the power was going to be turned off any day. Between the funeral costs and getting my dad on his feet, it took nearly everything that myself, my wife Nicole and my Uncle had to get things at least stable for the moment. Thankfully I can say that right now my dad is doing well and Nicole and I are doing okay.

    Once concept I would like to express to my daughter is that money is neither the cause or solution to problems. Looking back I know now that my parent's fights were less about money and more about communication, honesty and balancing household duties. My dad never took the time to be involved with paying bills and the household finances and that was his fault. And mom was never able to ask for help when she needed it.

    Probably like the majority of people here all I really want is enough to be comfortable; have a roof over my head, food on the table, bills paid and maybe a little left over for a r
    rainy day.

    I apologize if I went off on a separate tangent; just kind of let the spirit take me .

    Thank you and Gassho,

    Josh


    You did great here, Josh!

    Thank you for sharing, and the best to you and your wife.
    Nothing Special

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by jlewis View Post
    Thank you one and all for this interesting post and for everybody's comments on this subject. These ideas of money and possessions have been in the back of my mind for quite some time; especially since this past January after my mother had passed and even more so now that I will become a father in a few weeks.

    I love my mom with all my heart but she was terrible with money. What made this matter worse was that she was often left in charge of the household finances. Both of my parents are/were disabled and we lived on a fixed income. Every fight I can remember my parents having involved money. Mom would secretly take out payday loans from multiple locations around town for extra cash. She was not the kind of person to ask for help or to say that she was in a bind and needed help. I don't know if it was pride or shame, but when she had passed the skeletons came out of the closet. My parent's house was nearly a year behind on its mortgage; the phone was shut off and the power was going to be turned off any day. Between the funeral costs and getting my dad on his feet, it took nearly everything that myself, my wife Nicole and my Uncle had to get things at least stable for the moment. Thankfully I can say that right now my dad is doing well and Nicole and I are doing okay.

    Once concept I would like to express to my daughter is that money is neither the cause or solution to problems. Looking back I know now that my parent's fights were less about money and more about communication, honesty and balancing household duties. My dad never took the time to be involved with paying bills and the household finances and that was his fault. And mom was never able to ask for help when she needed it.

    Probably like the majority of people here all I really want is enough to be comfortable; have a roof over my head, food on the table, bills paid and maybe a little left over for a r
    rainy day.

    I apologize if I went off on a separate tangent; just kind of let the spirit take me .

    Thank you and Gassho,

    Josh
    Thank you Josh for sharing your story. I can relate in way as I grew up in a household of gamblers and alcoholics. They would work too much to get all the stuff, then drink too much to reduce the stress of working to much to get all the stuff, then gamble to get back the money they spent on the drinking and stuff. Was a crazy circle to grow up in.

    The one thing I learned as I got older is money does not buy happiness, but it does help to create a sense of security (ie: a roof over your head). So, in order to create a sense of this security and be able to enjoy and live the life I would like, I adopted a minimalistic life, a life where I work to live, not live to work, a life where I didn't need a great deal of money to live or get by. In doing so I have a life where I have good friends and wonderful experiences.

    Gassho
    Michael
    真 眼

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by YuimaSLC View Post

    What can you tell us about Vimalakirti, a contemporary of Shakamuni Buddha, who is oft presented as the great lay buddhist, with wealth and all.

    I often think that a companion to the 'golden rule' is 'need what you take, take what you need' approach to materialism. And being willing to ask an honest question of
    "do I really need that?" and an honest resolve to that ongoing question.
    Hi Y,

    Yes, Vimalakirti, the Greatest of All Buddhists out in the world, who in his Sutra runs Enso rings around the other Great Bodhisattvas ... was LOADED! However, his relationship to his wealth and his use for it is the key. The Sutra describes a fellow who was quite active in the world, even visiting the bars and casinos, a family man, a sharp dresser, and well loved by all ... yet always able to convey an example of the Buddha Way ... [Burton Watson Translation] ...

    Desiring to save others, he employed the excellent expedient of residing in [the town of] Vaishali. His immeasurable riches he used to relieve the poor, his faultless observation of the precepts served as a reproach to those who would violate prohibitions. Through his restraint and forbearance he warned others against rage and anger, and his great assiduousness discouraged all thought of sloth and indolence. Concentrating his single mind in quiet meditation, he suppressed disordered thoughts; through firm and unwavering wisdom he overcame all that was not wise.

    Though dressed in the white robes of a layman, he observed all the rules of pure conduct laid down for monks, and though he lived at home, he felt no attachment to the threefold world. One could see he had a wife and children, yet he was at all times chaste in action; obviously he had kin and household attendants, yet he always delighted in withdrawing from them. Although he wore jewels and finery, his real adornment was the auspicious marks; although he ate and drank like others, what he truly savored was the joy of meditation.

    If he visited the gambling parlors, it was solely to bring enlightenment to those there; if he listened to the doctrines of other religions, he did not allow them to impinge on the true faith. Though well versed in secular writings, his constant delight was in the Buddhist Law. Respected by everyone, he was looked on as foremost among those deserving of alms; embracing and upholding the correct Dharma, he gave guidance to old and young. In a spirit of trust and harmony he conducted all kinds of business enterprises, but though he reaped worldly profits, he took no delight in these.

    He frequented the busy crossroads in order to bring benefit to others, entered the government offices and courts of law so as to aid and rescue all those he could. He visited the places of debate in order to guide others to the Great Vehicle, visited the schools and study halls to further the instruction of the pupils. He entered houses of ill fame to teach the folly of fleshly desire, entered wine shops in order to encourage those with a will to quit them.

    If he was among rich men, they honored him as foremost among them because he preached the superior Law for them. If he was among lay believers, they honored him as foremost because he freed them from greed and attachment. Among Kshatriyas he was most highly honored because he taught them forbearance. Among Brahmans he was most highly honored because he rid them of their self-conceit. The great ministers honored him as foremost because he taught the correct Law. The princes honored him as foremost because he showed them how to be loyal and filial. Within the women's quarters he was most honored because he converted and brought refinement to the women of the harem.

    The common people honored him as first among them because he helped them to gain wealth and power. The Brahma deities honored him as first among them because he revealed the superiority of wisdom. The Indras honored him as first among them because he demonstrated the truth of impermanence. The Four Heavenly Kings, guardians of the world, honored him as foremost because he guarded all living beings.

    In this way the rich man Vimalakirti employed immeasurable numbers of expedient means in order to bring benefit to others.
    By the way, Dogen's Eiheiji Monastery has been described by some as an attempt at a collective, a Kibbutz, an ideal community of "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". Yes, although he had never heard the term, Dogen might be described as something of a Dharma-socialist. He too, like most idealists, found the realities perhaps more complicated than he planned ... but he never gave up the effort. (The same observation might be made of Gautama Buddha's vision of a communal, peaceful "Sangha").

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 10-10-2012 at 12:46 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by YuimaSLC View Post
    We often see overt reaction, in this country, to any talk of increased taxation to help others. And most people think that taking away a little more from one's own pockets is
    an intolerable compromise. Yet, when we look at what people have, what they accumulate, what they are willing to pay for a pair of jeans, or how often they replace their computer
    or cell phone with the latest-and-greatest version.....in fact, there seems to a significant amount of disposable income in this nation. Alot.
    Word on that man... what's also crazy is how some companies pay laborers so little for their work yet mark up their products a lot. ok I'm not using specifics, but we outsource labor to poor nations. It's basically a form of legalized slave labor in my opinion.

  36. #36
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mormon Country
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by Risho View Post
    Word on that man... what's also crazy is how some companies pay laborers so little for their work yet mark up their products a lot. ok I'm not using specifics, but we outsource labor to poor nations. It's basically a form of legalized slave labor in my opinion.


    It is the main goal of conservatism, esp here in the states. While mostly, religiously zealot, they hide behind the god of money. Its never about the whole, its every man for himself, get out of my way, including the environment.
    Nothing Special

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Risho View Post
    Word on that man... what's also crazy is how some companies pay laborers so little for their work yet mark up their products a lot. ok I'm not using specifics, but we outsource labor to poor nations. It's basically a form of legalized slave labor in my opinion.
    Hello Risho,

    For what it's worth, some of the practices of some companies (Foxconn springs to mind) aren't legal in the slightest--the question is one of politicians being willing to take on the corporations, which is a much bigger and more difficult issue.

    In Gassho,

    Saijun
    To give up yourself without regret is the greatest charity. --RBB

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •