SPLIT TOPIC: Or I'll Eat My Zafu!

[Jundo]

Per Dosho ... Keizan p. 42 (also from Transmission of the Light, actually quoting and commenting on Zen Patriarch Shanavasa) ...

"What kind of thing is the original unborn nature of all things?" Ananda pointed to a corner of Savanavasa'srobe. Again, he asked, "What kind of thing is the original nature of the Buddhas awakening?" Ananda then grasped a corner of Sanavasa's robe and pulled it. At that time, Sanavasa was greatly awakened.


Keizan comments ...

As a result of not penetrating this principle ... you will not only lose your human body, but you will not realize that the [human body] is the expression of the Self.

Any more?

[Jinyo]

I just posted this on the "fire" thread ... but it belongs here too. Why I am doing this?

I wrote to Willow, who is dealing with a sick mother know ... and is a little distracted from a seeming "philosophical discussion"

----------------------------

Hi Willow,

I just want to drop in that these issues may seem like a "philosophical discussion", but truly they go to the heart of Zen and all Mahayana Buddhism. All the Koans, the Zazen, the Mahayana Sutras, the writings by the great Teachers ... truly all arise from and center on this. Sometimes this fact may be lost on folks who believe that "Zen" is beyond and rejects all "ideas, views and doctrines" ... and thus has not ideas, views and doctrines. But such is not the case.

Rather, when folks of old said that "Zen" is beyond all "ideas, views and doctrines" they meant (itself a kind of doctrine) that the Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha (which we are discussing) is beyond all divisions, all "ideas, views and doctrines". So, the best way to approach and realize the Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha is thus to sit in Zazen ( Shikantaza, work with Koans and the like) dropping all ideas, views and doctrines. Thereby our little self, with all its little ideas and views ... comes to embody that which is beyond (yet spawns) all divisions, ideas and views.

Why is that important? Why did perhaps every single Zen teacher of old that I know spend so much time and effort to Teach just this? Is it just philosophy and a waste of time compared to your now dealing with your old mother, who is very sick, or other matters in life?

I would answer by saying that this Teaching is,　in fact, one of the greatest gifts to someone who is dealing with sickness, old age, life and death and all human problems. It is not merely a "philosophical debate" because, when one has truly unpierced this Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha that all the old teachers spoke about, one learns that sickness, old age, life and death, the broken heart and struggle you are dealing with ... is not just that. Further, it is not merely to be understood on an intellectual level, but rather right in our bones through this Zen Practice.

I hope that is clear. Freedom, Wisdom, Compassion arise here ... when we can live this "No Doctrine Doctrine".

Gassho, J

Jundo - I've replied to this on the other thread but I will try again here.

Maybe I am completely distracted, confused just now because I'm deep, down tired - but I feel you haven't understood where I was coming from. I will read this thread when I've got better concentration - I don't see the teaching here as empty philosophy - never have. I understand you have an important point you need to make - a nexus of teaching that it is important for us to grasp and live out in our lives.

I was simply suggesting - perhaps not with much clarity - that the postings seemed to have become of a very personal nature - and as any group mirrors a family in its dynamics 'something' seemed to be playing out that wasn't all that focussed on teachings as such.

I'm not all that easy round conflict and perhaps was looking to find a way to heal 'something' - or at least express an acknowledge that a need for healing was in there somewhere. It's why I noted back to Richard's post because he had picked up on this.



Anyway - that's not what this thread is about so I'll go back to my comotose state and re-join when I've got something worthwhile to contribute.


Gassho



Willow

[Jundo]

Hi Willow,

Yes, nothing like that intended at all. Get some rest, dear Willow, because life is hard for you now.

Gassho, J

[Seiryu]

Layman P'ang
p.46

[Kaishin]

Seung Sahn Sunim page 59

[Jundo]

Layman P'ang
p.46

Ah, from the Ruth Sasaki translation. The "10,000 dharmas" is a standard expressions that represents all the "separate things" of the Samsaric world. I would say that the "covering the mouth" represents that tasted beyond the words, categories and ideas.

The layman ... asked the Master: "Who is the man who does not accompany [is unbound by] the ten thousand dharmas?"

The [Master] covered the Layman's mouth with his hand. In a flash,[the Layman] realized.

Keep em coming.

[Jundo]

Seung Sahn Sunim page 59

My online copy of Dropping Ashes on the Buddha, page 59 .... ... how the mind and thoughts make the divided ugliness of life ... a bloody little story ...

One evening, as he was crossing the desert, [a monk name Won Hyo] stopped at a small patch of green, where there were a few trees and some water, and went to sleep. Toward midnight he woke up, very thirsty. It was pitch-dark. He groped along on all fours, searching for water. At last his hand touched a cup on the ground. He picked it up and drank. Ah, how delicious! Then he bowed deeply, in gratitude to Buddha for the gift of water. The next morning, Won Hyo woke up and saw beside him what he had taken for a cup. It was a shattered skull, blood-caked and with shreds of flesh still stuck to the cheek bones. Strange insects crawled or floated on the surface of the filthy rain-water inside it. Won Hyo looked at the skull and felt a great wave of nausea. He opened his mouth. As soon as the vomit poured out, his mind opened and he understood. Last night, since he hadn't seen and hadn't thought, the water was delicious. This morning, seeing and thinking had made him vomit. Ah, he said to himself, thinking makes good and bad, life and death. It creates the whole universe. It is the universal master. And without thinking, there is no universe, no Buddha, no Dharma. All is one, and this one is empty.

[RichardH]

I just want to drop in that these issues may seem like a "philosophical discussion", but truly they go to the heart of Zen and all Mahayana Buddhism. All the Koans, the Zazen, the Mahayana Sutras, the writings by the great Teachers ... truly all arise from and center on this. Sometimes this fact may be lost on folks who believe that "Zen" is beyond and rejects all "ideas, views and doctrines" ... and thus has not ideas, views and doctrines. But such is not the case.

Rather, when folks of old said that "Zen" is beyond all "ideas, views and doctrines" they meant (itself a kind of doctrine) that the Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha (which we are discussing) is beyond all divisions, all "ideas, views and doctrines". So, the best way to approach and realize the Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha is thus to sit in Zazen ( Shikantaza, work with Koans and the like) dropping all ideas, views and doctrines. Thereby our little self, with all its little ideas and views ... comes to embody that which is beyond (yet spawns) all divisions, ideas and views.


Gassho, J

Hi Jundo.

When is talk of "True Self" unskillful? ..... and for that matter when is talk of No-Self" unskillful?

Gassho, kojip.

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo.

When is talk of "True Self" unskillful? ..... and for that matter when is talk of No-Self" unskillful?

Gassho, kojip.

Hi Kojip,

I would say they are unskillful when either is reified (turned into an image as a frozen, concrete 'thing' standing apart from us) rather than as the most intimate living in our bones (a bit like talking about "art" or "painting" in one's armchair without truly expressing and experiencing the making and living of the creating). These images are helpful tools ... but don't cling to them, and please throw them away in the actual doing.

"True Self" and "No Self" are, in Mahayana Buddhism, really two ways of describing the same reality, poetic images looking two ways at the same no sided coin. Don't think that "No Self" (meaning that "you" and all things don't truly have the fixed, abiding self that you think you and they have) thus means that there is nothing but nothing ... a nihilistic "hole". Rather, "emptiness is not empty, the void is not void" ... and there is a "Holy Wholly Whole". On the other "sound of one hand" hand , don't think of the "True Self" as some solid, concrete separate thing that you should search for "out there someplace" ... cause it is as close and intimate as your own eye itself, out there and in here beyond all "in vs. out", which is precisely the Buddha's Eye seeing.

Now, truly piercing this "True Self/No Self" (or it's other images such as "Emptiness", "Mind", Big "B" Buddha etc.) is necessary for this Practice, getting us out of the traps of our small, narrow, angry, greedy, aversion-filled, self-absorbed, personal soap opera loving, fearful "small self". That's because the "True Self/No Self" is free of anything missing, anyone to be angry at, anything to fear etc. However, notice how most Zen Teachers say that such realization and piercing of "True Self/No Self" is needed, but not the final train stop (only the start of training!) ... and the real trick is then to figure out how to integrate this "True Self/No Self" back here living in this messy Samsaric, small self, "mountains are mountains again" world ... the "return to the marketplace". That's the really tricky part, the constant "practice" in life right here to fit these views smoothly together ... a view of "nothing to lack" in a life that sometimes sucks eggs! We need to realize "Emptiness/Buddha/True Face" etc., but cannot run to or try to stay there one-sidedly. So, for example, Suzuki Roshi says in the quote above, trying to wrestle with how to integrate all this ...

When you say “Whatever I do is Buddha nature, so it doesn’t matter what I do, and there is no need to practice zazen,” that is already a dualistic understanding of our everyday life ...

... [practice] concentrated on obtaining emptiness of mind ...is trying to be free from the suffering of duality. This is the practice of “form is emptiness and emptiness is form.” ... it is not perfect practice.

... moment after moment, is the life of “form is form and emptiness is emptiness.” When Buddha comes, you will welcome him; when the devil comes, you will welcome him.

Sorry for all the words, but this is important.

Gassho, J

PS -

Shoot a few more names and pages this way.

[Kaishin]

Here's some more

Mazu p28

Shitou p99

Dongshan p105

Deshan p33

Yunmen p191

That should keep you busy

[Saijun]

Hello,

Tendo Nyojo 44.

Metta and Gassho,

Saijun

[pinoybuddhist]

Oooh... this is exciting. *TV announcer voice-over:* Who will get Jundo to eat zazu stuffing? Will we ever get to hear a description of the taste of zafu stuffing? The challenge continues... Stay tuned, and don't press that remote control button.

EDIT: Sorry, just couldn't resist. I haven't read a lot of books on Zen so I can't think of anything.


Raf

[Jundo]

Oh boy! Quite a few folks there!

I could not find a book with solely writings from those folks on the pages indicated, so I came as close as I can.

So I will take the 2nd and 8th quotes (and I'll toss in a bit of the 7th) from Mazu by Thomas Cleary ...

The founders of Zen said that one's own essence is inherently complete. Just don't linger over good or bad things - that is called practice of the Way. To grasp the good and reject the bad, to contemplate emptiness and enter concentration, is all in the province of contrivance - and if you go on seeking externals, you get further and further estranged. Just end the mental objectivization of the world. A single thought of the wandering mind is the root of birth and death in the world. Just don't have a single thought and you'll get rid of the root of birth and death.

The Dharmakaya is infinite; its substance neither waxes nor wanes. It can be vast or minute, angled or smooth; it manifests images in accordance with things and beings, like the moon reflected in a pool. Its function gushes forth yet does not take root; it never exhausts deliberate action nor does it dwell in inaction.

The true Suchness of mind is like a mirror reflecting forms: the mind is like the mirror, and phenomena are like the (reflected) forms. If the mind grasps at phenomena, then it involves itself in external conditions & causes; this is what 'the birth and death of mind' means. If it no longer grasps at such phenomena, this is what 'the true Suchness of mind' means.

Shitou's most famous writing attributed to him is the Sandokai (the Harmony/Identity of the Relative and Absolute ... the title alone should be enough). Andy Ferguson has also this ...

Zen Master Shitou entered the hall and addressed the monks, saying ...“'Buddha mind,’ ‘all beings,’ ‘wisdom,’ and ‘defilement’ - the names of these things are different, but actually they are one body. You should each recognize your miraculous mind. Its essence is apart from temporary or everlasting. Its nature is without pollution or purity. It is clear and perfect. Common people and sages are the same. The mind reaches everywhere without limit. It is not constrained by the limits of consciousness. The three realms and six realms manifest from this mind. If this mind is like the moon reflected on water, where can there be creation and destruction? If you can comprehend this, then there is nothing that you lack.


Dongshan is the attributed author of the Song of Precious Mirror Samadhi (Tanahashi translation), which begins ...

The teaching of suchness, is given directly, through all buddha ancestors,
Now that it's yours, keep it well.
A serving of snow in a silver bowl, or herons concealed in the glare of the moon
Apart, they seem similar, together, they're different.

Deshan is one of my personal favorites (beyond liking and disliking). His last living words were ...

Groping after what is empty and chasing echoes will only fatigue the mind and spirit.
Beyond awakening from a dream, and then going beyond this awakening, what remains?

He also has one of the most powerful Teachings of all time, right on point although perhaps a bit harder for unaccustomed eyes to see ...

Deshan entered the hall and addressed the monks, saying, "I don't hold to some view about the ancestors. Here, there are no ancestors and no buddhas. Bodhidharma is an old stinking foreigner. Shakyamuni is a dried piece of excrement. Manjushri and Samantabhadra are dung carriers. What is known as “realizing the mystery” is nothing but breaking through to grasp an ordinary persons life. 'Bodhi' and 'nirvana' are a donkey's tethering post. The twelve divisions of scriptural canon are devils' texts; just paper for wiping infected skin boils. The four fruitions and the three virtuous states, original mind and the ten stages, these are just graveyard-guarding ghosts. They'll never save you.

Yunmen, but from Page 193 ...

Every person originally has the radiant light—yet when it is looked at, it is not seen: dark and obscure. As long as the light has not yet broken through, there are two kinds of disease: 1. The first is seeing oneself facing objects and being left in the dark about everything. 2. The second consists in having been able to pierce through to the emptiness of all separate entities (dharmas)—yet there still is something that in a hidden way is like an object.

Tiantong Rujing on page 454-5 (Andy Ferguson) ...

Tiantong addressed them, saying, "The great way has no gate! It jumps off the heads of you Zen worthies who have assembled from every direction. Emptiness is without a path. It goes in and out of the nostrils of the host of Qingliang Temple."

...

Thoughts in the mind are confused and scattered. How can they be controlled? In the story about Zhaozhou and whether or not a dog has buddha nature, there is an iron broom named 'Wu' (Mu). If you use it to sweep thoughts, they just become more numerous. Then you frantically sweep harder, trying to get rid of even more thoughts. Day and night you sweep with all your might, furiously working away. All of a sudden, the broom breaks into vast emptiness, and you instantly penetrate the myriad differences and thousand variations of the universe.

Anyway ... if one truly is eaten by Emptiness ... the Zafu is ALREADY EATEN!

Gassho, J

[Mp]

Yes this is exciting ... boy Jundo, yours fingers must be sore by now.

Gassho
Michael

[disastermouse]

Jundo,

Heh! If you were really a Zen teacher, you'd kill a cat. All the cool teachers are doing it.

Chet