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Thread: Just as you thought you understood...

  1. #1
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Just as you thought you understood...

    Because the flowers blooming
    In our original home
    Are everlasting,
    Though springtimes may come and go
    Their colors do not fade
    .


    It is said that although sitting takes place in space and time, it is not bound by space and time. The original home is a simple abode of not identifying with any role, not clinging to anything, not following any particular thought. It is right here, where we sit. If we read everlasting as something like eternal, we are missing the mark. Because of the very reality of impermanence nothing can go for ever, and certainly not time. Everlasting might mean here, through changes and seasons, always available, always open for us. And practice- realization cannot be seen and compared to cherry blossoms in Spring, as you stop sitting, it carries on blossoming, as you sit,the whole,reality sits with you. Beyond the traditional idea of time, it is still sitting now. Flowers blooming Dogen uses a plural here because there is not a single you, we appear and disappear every signle moment, the person that sat in front of this screen and the person reading these lines are different. The feeling of continuity, a single self going through life, is a very nice illusion, we constantly disappear and reappear, and the speed of the process gives us a feeling of continuity. Constantly changing is our everlasting state...you see how the first interpretation of his poem can be misleading, people reading this without the sitting experience would inevitably project a very dualistic and fake reading like: awakening is eternal and the trivial and dark reality of illusion cannot touch it. Countless springtimes will come and go, countless "you" will appear and die and yet, colors are always fresh, vibrant, vivid. Not because the flower lasts. Just the opposite.

    All conditioned phenomena
    Are like dreams, illusions, bubbles, or shadows;
    Like drops of dew, or flashes of lightning;
    Thusly should they be contemplated.



    This verse of the Diamond sutra is generally understood as the sole description of how transitory and fast phenomena can be...life is short.
    Well, if I may, it describes exactly what Dogen points out, what is described here is not the duration of the phenomena but the speed of its transformation, before and after. As a young teenager, I remember reading an old copy of the diamond sutra in my bed at night time. i was mesmerized by this verse. But I could not undertand this, thinking my life as as fast as a flash of lightening. Now, countless flashes of lightening and endless flowers- lives.

    Gassho

    Taigu
    Last edited by Taigu; 09-23-2012 at 01:22 AM.
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  2. #2
    Senior Member pinoybuddhist's Avatar
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    Rafael

  3. #3
    Beautiful Taigu, thank you.

    Gassho
    Michael
    倫道 真現

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  4. #4
    Thank you Taigu,

    having a very difficult time with making family decisions just now. Clearing out the memories contained in our
    parents home (of fifty years). Revisiting how we are often moulded/constrained and defined by others - and they by us - can
    be shattering (but also healing).

    I take joy, peace and comfort in these 'countless flashes of lightening and endless flowers' - beautifully expressed - thank you again.

    Gassho

    Willow

  5. #5
    Senior Member Heisoku's Avatar
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    Thank you so much Taigu.
    Was this a train ride?

    Countless flowers bloom, fade and bud
    Endless Gateless Gate
    Just this moment
    Heisoku
    平 息

  6. #6
    Thank you for that
    Humbly,
    Seiryu

  7. #7
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
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    Yes, I'm home.

    Thank you Taigu.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

  8. #8
    Treeleaf Unsui Shokai's Avatar
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    Life is uncertain, eat desert first
    gassho, Shokai, still learning the way and knowing nothing
    仁道 生開 - Jindo Shokai "Open to life in a benevolent way"
    Just another itinerant monk; go somewhere else to listen to someone who really knows.

  9. #9
    Friend of Treeleaf Myozan Kodo's Avatar
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    Taigu,
    Thank you.

    I see the springtimes still come and go. Each springtime has no relation to the other. Each is new. But is there karma at work? Consequences, but only on a mundane level?

    Gassho
    Myozan
    Myozan Kodo
    Ordained Soto Zen Priest in Training
    Dublin, Ireland

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.
    "Here the way unfolds."

  10. #10
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Mundane level?
    Nothing is mundane and cause and effect can be seen everywhere.
    Spring is but a word, in the full activity of Spring, no Spring, just the activity of Spring.
    Or countless Springs?Spring springing and vanishing and springing again.

    Gassho

    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  11. #11
    Thank you Taigu!
    Everlasting... for the time being!

    I will love you forever I said this before and meant it and yet here I am with my partner, again I have said this very thing before and will again and mean every breath of it.
    I have said forever is for as long as it lasts. Forever is the the start and end of that love anything beyond or before is not this love and yet it too will pass.
    Not something to be down about or an excuse not to put for the effort or let it all go to pot.

    All things are like this and it opens my eyes to how precious this is, all of it, life! it passes its gone and we grieve, celebrate and at times find it hard to get past/let die.

    That is how I experience everlasting/forever.

  12. #12
    Thank you, Taigu.

    _/\_
    Gassho,
    Kaishin

  13. #13
    Friends of Treeleaf Dokan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    Spring springing and vanishing and springing again.
    Gassho.

    Dokan
    We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.
    ~Anaïs Nin

  14. #14
    Friend of Treeleaf Myozan Kodo's Avatar
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    All this activity is sacred ... and nothing sacred about this activity.
    Thank you.
    Gassho
    Myozan
    Myozan Kodo
    Ordained Soto Zen Priest in Training
    Dublin, Ireland

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.
    "Here the way unfolds."

  15. #15
    Thank you Taigu,
    Gassho
    Myoku

  16. #16
    Merci. Le Dharma du Bouddha est toujours frais, pur, infini et parcellaire, changeant et permanent. L'image du printemps est belle ; quel bonheur, la fraîcheur du Dharma, vrai printemps des êtres.
    Thank you. Dharma du Bouddha is always fresh, pure, infinite and fragmented, changeable and permanent. The image of the spring is beautiful ; what a great happiness, the freshness of Dharma, true spring of beings.
    Kosen.

  17. #17
    All conditioned phenomena
    Are like dreams, illusions, bubbles, or shadows;
    Like drops of dew, or flashes of lightning;
    Thusly should they be contemplated.
    in a blink of an eye its all gone.

    as frightening as sometimes that may be,
    such a beautiful reminder of just how precious what we have, right now in this moment really is
    Humbly,
    Seiryu

  18. #18
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Thank you, Taigu.

    So are we springing into a fall? Are we falling into a spring that never ends and never starts? And does it matter? Is there really a difference, ultimately?

    Springing from a fall in phenomena, dualistically is one, ultimately.
    Nothing Special

  19. #19
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    You are rising an excellent point galen... And I will be another disappointment to your metaphysical take: yes it matters for there is obviously a diiference between dying from terminal cancer and celebrating one s birthday. At the same time spring and falling are one. In our tradition pair of opposites, time and timeless can meet. The point is not to have eyes to see it, ability to read or write it, wisdom to understand it but what it takes to live it. I remember that old woman asking the brilliant Buddhist scholar very skilled at describing the three minds : with what mind fo you eat my cakes?

    Anyway thank you for your post and patience.

    Enjoy your cakes

    Gassho


    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  20. #20
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Bro, Taigu,

    Thank you for your perception my seeming metaphysical `take on my giving back.... there is a chance this will not fit your Dongen dogged mind, but what the hell .... http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/..._in_Dogen.html
    Nothing Special

  21. #21
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Bro, Taigu,

    Thank you for your perception my seeming metaphysical `take on my giving back.... there is a chance this will not fit your Dongen dogged mind, but what the hell .... http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/..._in_Dogen.html
    Nothing Special

  22. #22
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    galen,

    Anything else to say?

    Why don t you show respect and be articulate?
    Why this need to show your teeth when you are asked to look a bit deeper?

    Is Dharma a matter of testosterone and a macho act?

    Cool down, we are not trying to pick up a fight but see and live clearly here.

    Your words are missing the mark.


    Gassho


    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  23. #23
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    galen,

    Anything else to say?

    Why don t you show respect and be articulate?
    Why this need to show your teeth when you are asked to look a bit deeper?

    Is Dharma a matter of testosterone and a macho act?

    Cool down, we are not trying to pick up a fight but see and live clearly here.

    Your words are missing the mark.


    Gassho


    Taigu


    I will have more to say in time, Taigu..... who lost their bla bla bla cool? I'm cool as hell, have you not noticed . I will do my best in the future to be as eloquent, respectful and articulate as YOU, but that is a high bar, obviously. Take care, and don't take yourself and things so serious, we ALL are in this together, not two, even though sometimes you look at others that way, as below you. Whos mark am i suppose to hit?? Me and the other bla bla blas you are having a problem with, are doing the best we can on this path to nowhere, and can only hope to attain your lofty standards position. Lets drop it, take a breath and move on, Brother.
    Nothing Special

  24. #24
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    galen,

    Anything else to say?

    Why don t you show respect and be articulate?
    Why this need to show your teeth when you are asked to look a bit deeper?

    Is Dharma a matter of testosterone and a macho act?

    Cool down, we are not trying to pick up a fight but see and live clearly here.

    Your words are missing the mark.


    Gassho


    Taigu


    I will have more to say in time, Taigu..... who lost their bla bla bla cool? I'm cool as hell, have you not noticed . I will do my best in the future to be as eloquent, respectful and articulate as YOU, but that is a high bar, obviously. Take care, and don't take yourself and things so serious, we ALL are in this together, not two, even though sometimes you look at others that way, as below you. Whos mark am i suppose to hit?? Me and the other bla bla blas you are having a problem with, are doing the best we can on this path to nowhere, and can only hope to attain your lofty standards and position. Lets drop it, take a breath and move on, Brother.
    Nothing Special

  25. #25
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    It would not let me post, then it put up two.
    Nothing Special

  26. #26
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Thank you for making this effort galen. Much appreciated. It would be wonderful for you to drop that "Bro", manners matter as you know. It is not because I am superior to anybody, or feel so, I do have a responsability, that's all.
    If you are interested in really studying and practising, then please, try to change and see clearly what kind of pattern you display sometimes. If not, maybe Treeleaf is not for you. This path is not a path to nowhere as you write, that's another one of your beliefs.


    gassho

    Taigu
    Last edited by Taigu; 09-28-2012 at 11:47 PM.
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  27. #27
    Senior Member YuimaSLC's Avatar
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    Take the word "beauty" for example. First, it's a word used to convey a concept. And both word and concept adjust from culture to culture, and within culture itself; meaning, there really isn't a place to
    hang the label of "beauty" with any certainty. Thus, empty and impermanent in terms of conditions arising/absent, ....simultaneously.
    Phenomenon with no self, and yet there is belief in a pattern (karma) which leads up to presume the permanence of "things" that appear. Memory helps to re-enact an interpretation of phenomenon. Yet, we collectively can't even agree as to the true substance of a memory-story, of the experience we supposedly encountered and shared for a moment.

    And this refreshing/revitalizing of data (which itself is in the present moment arising/absent as brain cells and energy) let's us function as human-beings, for certain benefits, and at the same time gives us illusion as to who we are, what is going on.

    One question is, how much can we get away with using the metaphor of a movie-film strip with it's millions of individual moments of celluloid image (perception) which, when run one after another (arising) gives us pattern....of movement, of things ? But I get troubled with that because it presumes the permanence of the individual slides. That's linear.

    Sorry, again, for the conceptual wordiness of this post. Best to just drop the words and live it.

  28. #28
    Senior Member YuimaSLC's Avatar
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    and a couple comments related to a few prior exchanges in this thread.

    I remember Alan Watts saying something 40 years about the difference between "seriousness" and "sincerity". He discounted the former and embraced the latter.

    To me sincerity = wholeheartedness.

    It is my wish that Taigu will continue, and increase, the number of presentations given on the video. I thoroughly benefit from them. And to me, it really
    expresses a sense of his wholeheartedness, and humor. You know, it's hard to giggle at yourself in text.

    And, thank you Taigu for this most recent post. I've re-read it twice already.

  29. #29
    Not sure about addressing people with brother or bro. Have noticed that here occasionally. Seems to becoming popular in everyday life.
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

  30. #30
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Not sure about addressing people with brother or bro. Have noticed that here occasionally. Seems to becoming popular in everyday life.

    I use it often in my life, as whats up brother or bro, its old hippie slang; as is hey man, whats up, which i also have use here on these forums and in my daily life. Like hey man, or thanks, man. In this particular case here, I was actually reaching a hand out to Taigu, and felt comfortable using it, because he had earlier in the forum. Thank you, Rich.
    Last edited by galen; 09-29-2012 at 02:24 PM.
    Nothing Special

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by galen View Post
    I use it often in my life, as whats up brother or bro, its old hippie slang; as is hey man, whats up, which i also have use here on these forums and in my daily life. Like hey man, or thanks, man. In this particular case here, I was actually reaching a hand out to Taigu, and felt comfortable using it, because he had earlier in the forum. Thank you, Rich.
    You are welcome, Galen. Did try to read that metaphysical link but I'm just not that interested. Is mental gymnastics to me and I already do enough of that. This practice is a body mind practice. So if understanding that motivates you to do the real practice great! Otherwise fagettaaboutit.
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

  32. #32
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    You are welcome, Galen. Did try to read that metaphysical link but I'm just not that interested. Is mental gymnastics to me and I already do enough of that. This practice is a body mind practice. So if understanding that motivates you to do the real practice great! Otherwise fagettaaboutit.

    I will have to agree with you, Rich. It was/has been part of my life and parts will probably remain for a while, it could be worse I'm sure. It was not posted to make a case for it at all, I just picked up this site by googling Dogen and have read some of the things there, and hadn't even got around to reading this piece I linked here. I figured the site might be a good intro into Dogen, to get me started.... thats all, and only because the term was brought up from Taigus post. I like your fagettaaboutit, well done and thanks.
    Nothing Special

  33. #33
    disastermouse
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    I got blocked when I got to the 'Cherry Tree' being 'reality as such'. This has been demolished by the 'Myth of the Given' and post-structuralist philosophy in general. There may be a referent, but that is not the same as 'reality as such', as all referents are interpreted via senses that vary by physiology and biases induced by language, culture, and constructed personal narrative.

    IMHO

    Chet

  34. #34
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Could you please explain what you want to say, I want to say sorry to you because I don't get it.

    Tank you, Chet


    gassho

    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  35. #35
    disastermouse
    Guest
    Taigu,

    Which part? The cherry tree refers to the link Galen posted. The Myth of the Given is a term coined by Wilfred Sellars:

    From Wikipedia:

    "Sellars' most famous work is the lengthy and difficult paper, Empiricism and the Philosophy of Mind. In it, he criticises the view that knowledge of what we perceive can be independent of the conceptual processes which result in perception. He named this "The Myth of the Given," attributing it to phenomenology and sense-data theories of knowledge.".

    There are parallels in Eastern thought, although I don't recall them being stated as explicitly or readily available to the Western mind.

    Chet

  36. #36
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Thank you Chet, you see the little I know I got from conversations with JF Lyotard and other guys...Interesting, anyway.

    gassho

    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  37. #37
    disastermouse
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    Thank you Chet, you see the little I know I got from conversations with JF Lyotard and other guys...Interesting, anyway.

    gassho

    Taigu
    I had to look him up, LOL! I have no true liberal arts education (yet) and my understanding of these things comes from other people summarizing the work. Occasionally, my friend (a PhD in Rhetoric and Composition) corrects my misguided conclusions about the context and meaning of what I'm exposed to.

    Gassho,

    Chet

  38. #38
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    As a lecturer I worked with him and many other guys some 20 years ago. Doesn t make me intelligent. Just curious.

    take care


    gassho


    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse View Post
    I got blocked when I got to the 'Cherry Tree' being 'reality as such'. This has been demolished by the 'Myth of the Given' and post-structuralist philosophy in general. There may be a referent, but that is not the same as 'reality as such', as all referents are interpreted via senses that vary by physiology and biases induced by language, culture, and constructed personal narrative.

    IMHO

    Chet
    Hi Chet. There is always an assumed and hidden given in any intellectual position taken, period. including in post-structuralist given demolition. It is just sneakier, and stickier.. None of the "reality as such" teachings stand up to examination as an ontological claim, but that is not their purpose or point. The point is to get to the cushion and stick with that, dropping "reality as such" along with every other notion..

    .... now is this putting on the hat of a teacher..? no of course not, I can only speak from my own experience and have no sanction of any kind, but maybe yes, in an honest having-banged-my-head against-that-wall way. It also means if an actual teacher tells me I am barking up the wrong tree, it is time to stop and listen... even if it is a bit squirmy for my stupid pride.

    Gassho, kojip
    Last edited by Daizan; 10-01-2012 at 01:40 PM.
    大山

  40. #40
    disastermouse
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojip View Post
    Hi Chet. There is always an assumed and hidden given in any intellectual position taken, period. including in post-structuralist given demolition. It is just sneakier, and stickier.. None of the "reality as such" teachings stand up to examination as an ontological claim, but that is not their purpose or point. The point is to get to the cushion and stick with that, dropping "reality as such" along with every other notion..

    .... now is this putting on the hat of a teacher..? no of course not, I can only speak from my own experience and have no sanction of any kind, but maybe yes, in an honest having-banged-my-head against-that-wall way. It also means if an actual teacher tells me I am barking up the wrong tree, it is time to stop and listen... even if it is a bit squirmy for my stupid pride.

    Gassho, kojip
    I listened, I just don't accept the judgment - I think it's based on an inaccurate assumption about my intentions. Also, 'Myth of the Given' isn't a demolition of anything but a misconception. It's not a destruction of reality, it's a destruction of an assumption that's not ontologically accurate - and recognizing the myth of the given is pretty important in seeing through many of our inaccurate assumptions about how we construct our reality. If it's supposed to be skillful means, it's not very skillful.

  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse View Post
    I listened, I just don't accept the judgment - I think it's based on an inaccurate assumption about my intentions. Also, 'Myth of the Given' isn't a demolition of anything but a misconception. It's not a destruction of reality, it's a destruction of an assumption that's not ontologically accurate - and recognizing the myth of the given is pretty important in seeing through many of our inaccurate assumptions about how we construct our reality. If it's supposed to be skillful means, it's not very skillful.
    I can't speak to anyone's inaccurate assumption of your intentions, and won't touch ontological accuracy with a ten foot pole. I will invite you to sit with me. This morning during the 6:30 7:10 sitting (with two other folks) I turned the mic off after ringing the bell as usual. Halfway through the sitting I farted (it happens), and Google responded with a prompt saying if I have something to say I should turn on my mic. The wisdom of Google!

    Anyway , no matter. Gassho.
    Last edited by Daizan; 10-01-2012 at 02:07 PM.
    大山

  42. #42
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojip View Post
    I can't speak to anyone's inaccurate assumption of your intentions, and won't touch ontological accuracy with a ten foot pole. I will invite you to sit with me. This morning during the 6:30 7:10 sitting (with two other folks) I turned the mic off after ringing the bell as usual. Halfway through the sitting I farted (it happens), and Google responded with a prompt saying if I have something to say I should turn on my mic. The wisdom of Google!

    Anyway , no matter. Gassho.


    Hi Kojip,

    I am enjoying yours and disastermouses discussion, or should I say, what I can decipher from it . Can I ask you... what does/did your invitation to `the mouse to sit `with, have as a purpose in your seemingly kindly reaching out?
    Nothing Special

  43. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojip View Post
    I Halfway through the sitting I farted (it happens), and Google responded with a prompt saying if I have something to say I should turn on my mic.
    Lol.

  44. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojip View Post
    Halfway through the sitting I farted (it happens), and Google responded with a prompt saying if I have something to say I should turn on my mic. The wisdom of Google!
    I too have to laugh, thank you for this Kojip.

    Gassho
    Michael
    倫道 真現

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by galen View Post

    Can I ask you... what does/did your invitation to `the mouse to sit `with, have as a purpose in your seemingly kindly reaching out?
    The purpose of the invitation is to invite. There are group sittings , Google+ hangouts here. There are usually several going on everyday facilitated by members, both the ordained sangha, and the lay folks like me. It is sitting in the same room in many ways... sharing presence, wonderful and really supportive of practice. Text based rancor has no footing, when we just sit together.

    Gassho, kojip.
    大山

  46. #46
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Thanks Kojip,


    Gotcha, makes very good sense and reason. But your last line was what I was after, it serves me, Chet and you; no reading between the lines .
    Nothing Special

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