Tugas Gunadarma Gunadarma Tutorial VB.NET Download OST Anime Soundtrack Anime Opening Anime Ending Anime OST Anime Japan Download Lagu Anime Jepang

Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Love and Wisdom

  1. #1
    Friend of Treeleaf Myozan Kodo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    2,107

    Love and Wisdom

    Hi everyone,
    Why do many of us think love and wisdom are separate?

    Advice and direction with no love or Metta are often foolish. Blindly loving everything is equally foolish.

    Are not love and wisdom like the body-mind? One inseparable and seemless thing?

    Gassho
    Myozan
    An Unsui with Questions
    Myozan Kodo
    Ordained Soto Zen Priest in Training
    Dublin, Ireland

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.
    "Here the way unfolds."

  2. #2
    Oh Myozan,
    you speak my heart; since ages - so it seems to me - I feel wisdom and compassion (or love) are one. What wisdom would that be which not develops love, only selfish knowledge at best. What love would that be without a deep wisdom, not true love certainly. Trying to cultivate the one without the other seems pointless to me, actually impossible. Sorry for being so ... emotional suddenly :-)
    _()_
    Myoku

  3. #3
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Mexico
    Posts
    2,859
    Hi Myozan,

    As of late I have been sitting with the fact that on this culture we are very keen on separating stuff into independent units.

    We separate the self from the no-self, the good and bad, sadness from happiness, and so forth.

    On this separation of things, we lose ourselves and start delusion believing that if we take on life in small bits, it would be more manageable.

    And then comes suffering when we can't understand why the system fails. Why is this happening to me? Why no body listens? Why no one seem to think like I do?

    We believe that love is a separate unit. It's an emotion that we have no control of. So we let it be, indulging ourselves into irresponsible behaviors that end up hurting us and others.

    And then we believe the mind is also a whole different unit that regulates reason and takes care of our decisions.

    And the fact remains that we can't even begin to understand that everything is interconnected. That mind and love are one, along with joy and sadness, leisure and work, gold and garbage... it's life itself as a single unit, a whole in all wholeness.

    But that's just my two old cents.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Shuso and Ango leader for September 2014.

    Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Myozan Kodo View Post
    Hi everyone,
    Why do many of us think love and wisdom are separate?

    Advice and direction with no love or Metta are often foolish. Blindly loving everything is equally foolish.

    Are not love and wisdom like the body-mind? One inseparable and seemless thing?

    Gassho
    Myozan
    An Unsui with Questions
    Hello Myozan,

    I think that it's important to define what one means when one says "love." If one is speaking about Metta, Karuna, Mudita, Upekkha, then I think that "love" is absolutely an aspect of the awakened mind and important in the cultivation of wisdom.

    However, if one is speaking of the clinging, fearful-of-change "love" that seems to be the western romantic ideal, then I think that it is a type of clinging that can burn through a relationship and obfuscate wisdom with its smoke and ashes. At least, that's what seems to happen in my life when this particular type of clinging sneaks up on me.

    Rather than saying "love and wisdom [are] like the body-mind," I would say that the four Divine Abidings and wisdom are like the body-mind; non-clinging care and wisdom is like the body-mind. However, when clinging sneaks in, it can be damaging.

    That's my hypothesis on why people see love and wisdom as separate. Just a problem with the terminology.

    Metta and Gassho,

    Saijun

  5. #5
    Friend of Treeleaf Myozan Kodo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    2,107
    Quote Originally Posted by Saijun View Post
    If one is speaking about Metta, Karuna, Mudita, Upekkha, then I think that "love" is absolutely an aspect of the awakened mind and important in the cultivation of wisdom.
    Hi Saijun,
    Yes. That's what I'm talking about. The whole works.
    Gassho
    Myozan
    Myozan Kodo
    Ordained Soto Zen Priest in Training
    Dublin, Ireland

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.
    "Here the way unfolds."

  6. #6
    Well put Myozan and all! Thank you.

    Gassho
    Shohei

  7. #7
    disastermouse
    Guest
    You can't mend this rift, you can't drive two into one - but if you take a step back, you can arrive before the separation. Love and wisdom really aren't anything at all. Are they one, two, two-thousand, or none? Each answer is correct in a given time and place and situation. We get in trouble when we wear the wrong truth for this moment.

    The correct action for each moment can't be prescribed ahead of time, I'm afraid (except maybe in rituals, and even then the bells are struck 'wrong' and a cat meows out of turn) - but that isn't the same as saying there IS no correct action.

    IMHO.

    Chet

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Myozan Kodo View Post
    Hi Saijun,
    Yes. That's what I'm talking about. The whole works.
    Gassho
    Myozan
    I think that several times in Zen history, folks have come to taste Emptiness and Equanimity without Loving Kindness, Compassion, Empathetic Joy for our fellow Sentient Beings. The samurai's spirit of war was often the result. One can fall into nihilism, or be awakened in only a narrow sense. So, yes, we must take care to have all hand-in-hand.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-07-2012 at 08:29 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  9. #9
    disastermouse
    Guest
    I explained that poorly. Sorry about that.

    We talk about you and I as though we're different. That's sensible when we're paying our taxes or feeding ourselves. It's not very sensible when we're considering a motivation for reversing global warming.

    Love-as-opposed-to-Wisdom sometimes makes sense if we're trying to make a certain point. Other times, it can be a harmful view.

    I hope that was clearer.

    Chet

  10. #10
    Friend of Treeleaf Myozan Kodo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    2,107
    I think that several times in Zen history, folks have come to taste Emptiness and Equanimity without Loving Kindness, Compassion, Empathetic Joy for our fellow Sentient Beings. The samurai's spirit of war was often the result. One can fall into nihilism, or be awakened in only a narrow sense. So, yes, we must take care to have all hand-in-hand.

    Gassho, J
    Hi,
    This is very true. Consider those Zen teachers that have lived outside the Precepts, for instance. You have spoken of this many times, Jundo. They might have a great understanding and a cruel heart. Are such people walking he path? Is it enough to have great understanding?

    I think-feel not.

    Gassho
    Myozan
    Myozan Kodo
    Ordained Soto Zen Priest in Training
    Dublin, Ireland

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.
    "Here the way unfolds."

  11. #11
    Friend of Treeleaf Myozan Kodo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    2,107
    Love-as-opposed-to-Wisdom sometimes makes sense if we're trying to make a certain point. Other times, it can be a harmful view.
    Hi Chet,
    This is right, too, I think. There are times when one must act out of love, even if it seems to make no rational sense. Is it rational to let oneself be beaten by an oppresser or to fight back? Can we love our enemy and is it rational to meet hatred with love?

    Gassho
    Myozan
    Myozan Kodo
    Ordained Soto Zen Priest in Training
    Dublin, Ireland

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.
    "Here the way unfolds."

  12. #12
    Hi. I have a question. There have been times when I have felt a rapturous universal love... a kind of "Bodhisattva" emotion. It is like an all-embracing warmth.. a loving outreach. But then there are times when there is none of that. There is just walking down the street, and being open. It isn't especially loving in terms of affect... there isn't any particularly strong feeling at all. It is clear and light, and simple.. light in the sense of no heaviness. The former is a high, it is being high on Love. The latter does not feel like love... but I know for sure I am more helpful (and less of a self-conscious "Bodhisattva" nuisance!) when the latter is the case. It is free of cruelty and ill will, just friendly, and responsive, and responsible.... yet, sharp action might also be evoked. How do these descriptions square with "love" ?...

    Thank you. gassho kojip.
    大山

  13. #13
    Friend of Treeleaf Myozan Kodo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    2,107
    Hi Kojip,
    I am no expert. There has been so much written and said on love/metta. I am more of an expert on anger, hate and delusion! ;-)

    Maybe what you refer to is a matter of degree. Certainly it is impossible to maintain an intense feeling over a long period. We human beings don't seem to function like that.

    It might be that we have an intense insight into metta, a burning feeling that moderates but that offers a well-spring of inspiration after it has passed. It might even be such a powerful feeling that it inspires the rest of our lives, in between, when we're not angry, hateful and deluded.

    Returning. Again and again. Endlessly. Falling off and getting up again.

    Might that be closer to the mark?

    Je ne sais pas.

    Gassho
    Myozan
    Myozan Kodo
    Ordained Soto Zen Priest in Training
    Dublin, Ireland

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.
    "Here the way unfolds."

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Myozan Kodo View Post
    Hi Kojip,
    I am no expert. There has been so much written and said on love/metta. I am more of an expert on anger, hate and delusion! ;-)

    Maybe what you refer to is a matter of degree. Certainly it is impossible to maintain an intense feeling over a long period. We human beings don't seem to function like that.

    It might be that we have an intense insight into metta, a burning feeling that moderates but that offers a well-spring of inspiration after it has passed. It might even be such a powerful feeling that it inspires the rest of our lives, in between, when we're not angry, hateful and deluded.

    Returning. Again and again. Endlessly. Falling off and getting up again.

    Might that be closer to the mark?

    Je ne sais pas.

    Gassho
    Myozan
    Thank you, Myozan. That sounds true enough to me.. There can be a kind of compassion that is both painful and ecstatic. It is a heart opening experience. It doesn't last, can't last, but has lasting effects.


    kojip
    大山

  15. #15
    Friend of Treeleaf Myozan Kodo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    2,107
    Hi,
    Your insights are really helpful guys. Thank you for them.
    Gassho
    Myozan
    Myozan Kodo
    Ordained Soto Zen Priest in Training
    Dublin, Ireland

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.
    "Here the way unfolds."

  16. #16
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,904
    The sound of the bell goes on for ever without carrying the heavy body of the bell
    without this heavy body no sound could travel and merge with space

    gassho


    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  17. #17
    I've been pondering on this ....
    I feel what we term 'love' is the touchstone we rely on/return to and without which we can not cultivate true wisdom.
    Love is wholly embodied - it is there is the first gaze between a newborn baby and it's mother/father.

    Taigu - that is a wonderful image - eventually love breaks free of 'embodiment' - death can not obliterate it. Every step we take on this earth we take because of the love that has gone before - and this is our responsibility in our own here and now - to cultivate wisdom from the love we inherit.

    (.... amidst the anger/hate/delusion - so very true Myozan)

    Gassho

    Willow

  18. #18
    Senior Member Heisoku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Plymouth, Devon, UK
    Posts
    1,210
    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse View Post
    You can't mend this rift, you can't drive two into one - but if you take a step back, you can arrive before the separation.
    And if you keep stepping back before separation you are wholeness too! Then that is the place of love-wisdom-prajna. Here.
    Heisoku
    平 息

  19. #19
    Stephanie
    Guest
    Good thread, and I especially appreciate the points made by Saijun and Chet. I will add:

    I have learned in my own life, that love is the only thing that saves us, and it is only at those times of great trial when it becomes clear what love really is.

    I think where love and compassion can split from wisdom is when we don't have the courage or strength to confront the reality of loss and imperfection, of our lack of control; we can let our hearts pull us into doing foolish things because we think we are saving someone or ourselves when we are not, when we may actually be making things worse because we cannot accept there is nothing we can do. The love that saves and heals us sometimes requires of us that we let go when we would rather hold on, or even that we step back and let someone fall who needs to fall to learn and grow. I believe the only way to learn to tell the difference between the love that saves us and makes the path clear, and the confusion of our emotions and what we want to believe and don't want to accept, especially about those we love, is life experience, especially that associated with the phenomenon of heartbreak.

    In other words - you want to learn what love is? Love which is not separate from wisdom? Look deeply into yourself - and what is called forth from within yourself - when someone you love makes a choice to do something that hurts you (though in many cases this likely was not their intention in making the choice), that you cannot fix or change. Look deeply when you are called upon to do the right thing by someone else when no one will ever know what you did, give you a round of applause, or appreciate any sacrifices you may have made. It's even more to the point when this happens when your reassuring ideals and metaphysics, that your act will somehow be acknowledged by "the Universe," have failed and you cannot reassure yourself with the usual stories. I think real love makes itself known at those stark times when it feels like we have been abandoned by everything we wanted to believe about ourselves, about life, or about another person, when we may feel or very much be alone, when we must either choose to indulge ourselves or do what is right, with no promise of reward - in times of darkness, that one flickering light becomes quite visible. Unfortunately for us as humans, it is often only in times that severe that we can access the love inside of us that feels and knows what is right. It is at those more mellow times, when our strategies to reassure ourselves are enough, that we can persist in error and self-serving folly without even knowing we are doing it.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •