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Thread: For Saya

  1. #51
    Yes, I am certain I over-reacted, confusing the lovely song with that silly ceremony. My apologies.

    I will never let fairy tales, superstition and incantations in the door here, and I sometimes may over-react at the mere hint. Again, my apologies. But honestly, I think that such things are what Saya ... and we ... truly do not need in the face of such ugliness.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-30-2012 at 03:09 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  2. #52
    Sitting this morning for Saya, for all things, with all things, as all things, wholeheartedly sitting, bowing.

    Gassho,
    alan

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by pinoybuddhist View Post
    I was actually thinking how refreshing it is to see that the two of you don't always agree (though you usually do).
    I agree ... I feel these kind of action/reactions show the true grace of a teacher(s).

    Gassho
    Michael

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
    真 眼

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Nengyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Yes, I am certain I over-reacted, confusing the lovely song with that silly ceremony. My apologies.

    I will never let fairy tales, superstition and incantations in the door here, and I sometimes may over-react at the mere hint. Again, my apologies. But honestly, I think that such things are what Saya ... and we ... truly do not need in the face of such ugliness.

    Gassho, Jundo

    I agree. To me, invoking superstition is no different than the endless facebook slacktivism declaring that if you "like" some photo you somehow helped fight hunger. It is worse than ineffective, as it allows you to feel like you have accomplished something without having done anything.
    Try not to be a jerk-- one of the Buddhas

  5. #55
    Sat for Saya tonight.
    /Pontus
    In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
    you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
    now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
    the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

  6. #56
    Treeleaf Unsui rculver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catfish View Post
    I agree. To me, invoking superstition is no different than the endless facebook slacktivism declaring that if you "like" some photo you somehow helped fight hunger. It is worse than ineffective, as it allows you to feel like you have accomplished something without having done anything.
    I have the same reservations with the "metta chant". But, I do it anyway because I just don't know. Even if it just puts me in the shoes of another, makes me consider another viewpoint... I just don't know.
    As a priest in training, please take everything I say with a pinch of salt

    Meido Shugen
    明道 修眼

  7. #57
    Senior Member Nengyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rculver View Post
    I have the same reservations with the "metta chant". But, I do it anyway because I just don't know. Even if it just puts me in the shoes of another, makes me consider another viewpoint... I just don't know.
    I view the metta chant as being practice for me. Practice at showing compassion for people that I am normally neutral towards or flat out dislike.
    Try not to be a jerk-- one of the Buddhas

  8. #58
    Treeleaf Unsui Myozan Kodo's Avatar
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    Sat for Saya tonight.
    /Pontus
    And I like Pontus.
    Gassho
    M
    Myozan Kodo
    Ordained Soto Zen Priest in Training
    Dublin, Ireland

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.
    "Here the way unfolds."

  9. #59
    Please bear with a few late night ramblings without much coherence...

    I believe that we all change the world and the world changes us. The state of our body-mind constanly affects those around us and those around us constantly affect the state of our body-mind. When we are poisoned with greed, hate and delusion, we unconsciously express it with our whole body, our whole presence, even when we don't say a single word. A very unbalanced person can make all those around him or her uncomfortable. That discomfort may develop into fear, the fear may lead to anger and anger to hate (as master Yoda would have said) and the poison turns into a contagious disease.

    But the opposite is also true. And this is where I feel practice changes the world. When you are free from the three poisons, you instead radiate peace, compassion, kindness, which is contagious too. You start to really see people, really listen to people. And people feel more confident and secure around you. Healing takes place and spreads like rings on the water. Like a butterfly flapping its wings on one side of the globe could cause a hurricane on the other, a kind word could have greater consequences than we can imagine.

    None of us are insignificant, unimportant. The ability to change the world is a super power we all possess! We are all part of the whole (all of the whole even), so it is vitally important that we take care, because it does matter.

    So take care,

    Gassho,
    Pontus
    In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
    you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
    now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
    the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Myozan Kodo View Post
    And I like Pontus.
    Gassho
    M
    I like you too!

    Hugs and kisses,
    Pontus
    In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
    you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
    now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
    the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

  11. #61
    Treeleaf Unsui rculver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catfish View Post
    I view the metta chant as being practice for me. Practice at showing compassion for people that I am normally neutral towards or flat out dislike.
    I understand the benefit to me, I just wonder about the benefit to those I chant metta "for". It changes from something to benefit others to something that benefits me. That's why I just don't know.


    Shugen
    As a priest in training, please take everything I say with a pinch of salt

    Meido Shugen
    明道 修眼

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by rculver View Post
    I understand the benefit to me, I just wonder about the benefit to those I chant metta "for". It changes from something to benefit others to something that benefits me. That's why I just don't know.


    Shugen
    By benefitting you it benefits others. There is not two. Imho. When I chant metta or EJKG I don't think something magical is going to happen. It has happened, is happening and will continue to happen. When I focus my thoughts and attention to Saya, regardless of the method, I build compassion, empathy and awareness. For me, this is by reading on her situation, sitting for her and yes, chanting whatever builds that connection. Whether it is something unintelligible like darani or something melodic and emotionally inspiring like Krishna Das.

    I don't have any answers, just my practice, and currently this is it.

    Thank you Taigu for bringing her to my heart. Thank you Jundo for making me think more deeply about why I practice. Thank you Hans for the KD music...he's been one of my long time favourites. (I actually chant the verse of the robe to his melody of Sita Ram).

    Gassho

    Dokan

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    We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.
    ~Anas Nin

  13. #63
    This conversation is really about the best way to respond to the Sayas and other sadness of the world ... please don't think we are talking about anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by rculver View Post
    ... I just wonder about the benefit to those I chant metta "for" ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi View Post

    I believe that we all change the world and the world changes us. The state of our body-mind constanly affects those around us and those around us constantly affect the state of our body-mind. When we are poisoned with greed, hate and delusion, we unconsciously express it with our whole body, our whole presence, even when we don't say a single word. A very unbalanced person can make all those around him or her uncomfortable. That discomfort may develop into fear, the fear may lead to anger and anger to hate (as master Yoda would have said) and the poison turns into a contagious disease.

    But the opposite is also true. And this is where I feel practice changes the world. When you are free from the three poisons, you instead radiate peace, compassion, kindness, which is contagious too. You start to really see people, really listen to people. And people feel more confident and secure around you. Healing takes place and spreads like rings on the water. Like a butterfly flapping its wings on one side of the globe could cause a hurricane on the other, a kind word could have greater consequences than we can imagine.
    I agree with Pontus. I chant Metta for suffering folks with the feeling that a small drop of peace, compassion, kindness in my heart will be one more small drop of goodness in the world, like a ripple from a small stone. If all human beings added one drop by one drop, soon this would be a very different world. Kindness and peace in my heart really do tend to change the friends and family around me too, and how we relate, in very real ways (anger and disturbance tend to have opposite effect). When I "send some Metta", I really try to feel it figuratively reaching the person (though I know that the feeling is mostly in my own heart). Some actions by me might have even wider effects as the ripples spread, a few now and then even helping to change events across the world. We can work to make this a better world, and someday we will ... in which all the children live in peace, war and violence are of the past.

    That is magic enough for me. Beyond that, I am doubtful of overly magical and mysterious interpretations of it all ... as if mysterious auras and energies are moving across hidden astral planes to change events. I will not even attempt to re-interpret the meaning of those "auras" and "planes" and such to make them seem somehow real and reasonable ... for they are not. I will not encourage a ceremony or practice that smacks of such superstition, and that is what the "Gate of Sweet Nectar" is ... (The ceremony, not the little song based on the ceremony. I am reminded of a conversation I spotted today on a Buddhist Forum by several folks discussing how to removing an Asura demi-god who is haunting a house. Have a read, it is fascinating .... http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=9714 ).

    Truly, and although I would like it otherwise, I doubt that my bit of Metta here will have much of an actual impact to help poor Saya. Most good ripples never get very far, and even those that do may have unexpected results ... like that butterfly that may spawn a deadly hurricane, or the act of kindness which somewhere down the line starts a chain of dominoes leading to war. I do not believe in some simplistic Buddhist formula of "good actions have good effects" in some 1-to-1 correspondence. All we can do is aspire for our actions to have the good, intended effects ... try our best ... and hope it works out. Any aid or relief worker will tell you that even the best designed program will rarely go fully as it should, and so for our little actions as individuals. But if we are careful, much good can be done.

    Still, I add a drop of Metta ... drop by drop ... with the aspiration that it will send out ripples of change, and change me, in positive ways. If, someday, the whole world would learn to wish each other such peace, contentment, equanimity and well-being, it will be a very different world. That would be "magic" and marvelous enough.

    And, yes, this is a conversation about the best ways to aid and empathize with Saya and all those like her.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-31-2012 at 04:38 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  14. #64
    Treeleaf Unsui rculver's Avatar
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    Shugen
    As a priest in training, please take everything I say with a pinch of salt

    Meido Shugen
    明道 修眼

  15. #65
    Senior Member pinoybuddhist's Avatar
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    Deep bows

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    This conversation is really about the best way to respond to the Sayas and other sadness of the world ... please don't think we are talking about anything else.





    I agree with Pontus. I chant Metta for suffering folks with the feeling that a small drop of peace, compassion, kindness in my heart will be one more small drop of goodness in the world, like a ripple from a small stone. If all human beings added one drop by one drop, soon this would be a very different world. Kindness and peace in my heart really do tend to change the friends and family around me too, and how we relate, in very real ways (anger and disturbance tend to have opposite effect). When I "send some Metta", I really try to feel it figuratively reaching the person (though I know that the feeling is mostly in my own heart). Some actions by me might have even wider effects as the ripples spread, a few now and then even helping to change events across the world. We can work to make this a better world, and someday we will ... in which all the children live in peace, war and violence are of the past.

    That is magic enough for me. Beyond that, I am doubtful of overly magical and mysterious interpretations of it all ... as if mysterious auras and energies are moving across hidden astral planes to change events. I will not even attempt to re-interpret the meaning of those "auras" and "planes" and such to make them seem somehow real and reasonable ... for they are not. I will not encourage a ceremony or practice that smacks of such superstition, and that is what the "Gate of Sweet Nectar" is ... (The ceremony, not the little song based on the ceremony. I am reminded of a conversation I spotted today on a Buddhist Forum by several folks discussing how to removing an Asura demi-god who is haunting a house. Have a read, it is fascinating .... http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=9714 ).

    Truly, though I would like it otherwise, I doubt that my bit of Metta here will have much of an actual impact to help poor Saya. Most good ripples never get very far, and even those that do may have unexpected results ... like that butterfly that may spawn a deadly hurricane, or the act of kindness which somewhere down the line starts a chain of dominoes leading to war. I do not believe in some simplistic Buddhist formula of "good actions have good effects" in some 1-to-1 correspondence. All we can do is aspire for our actions to have the good, intended effects ... try our best ... and hope it works out. Any aid or relief worker will tell you that even the best designed program will rarely go fully as it should, and so for our little actions as individuals. But if we are careful, much good can be done.

    Still, I add a drop of Metta ... drop by drop ... with the aspiration that it will send out ripples of change, and change me, in positive ways. If, someday, the whole world would learn to wish each other such peace, contentment, equanimity and well-being, it will be a very different world. That would be "magic" and marvelous enough.

    And, yes, this is a conversation about the best ways to aid and empathize with Saya and all those like her.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-31-2012 at 03:12 AM.

  16. #66
    Now, both Jundo and Pontus speak my mind, the magic is precisely taking place here and now and will gradually change both your heart and attitude. This is how I could forgive my father understanding there was nothing and nobody to forgive, one drop at a time, years of sitting, chanting, just accepting and being with what is. Beyond I don t know and don t care. this is what I tried to express in the clumsy prose about Dogen s poem.
    Thank you all for making some space in your life for Saya and all those who fall, and doing so ploughing your own empty field with seeds of compassion.

    Gassho


    Taigu
    Last edited by Taigu; 08-31-2012 at 06:40 AM.
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  17. #67
    Also, except for Taigu, none of us have actually met the woman named Saya. In sitting for Saya we sit for Taigu, because we know what she means to him. And we sit for ourselves, but not selfishly, ploughing our own empty field with seeds of compassion as Taigu says. And we sit for the symbolic Saya described to us by Taigu, respresenting people suffering in Syria and everywhere. And originally, from the absolute point of view, you, me, Taigu, Saya are not separate, so in sitting for Saya, the whole universe is sitting for Saya, Taigu, me, you, everyone.

    Gassho,
    Pontus
    Last edited by Omoi Otoshi; 08-31-2012 at 05:17 AM.
    In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
    you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
    now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
    the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

  18. #68
    Indeed, the magic is the oneness, the oneness is magical.
    You don t know Saya and yet you are Saya.

    Gassho

    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  19. #69
    My next zazen will be for Saya, I will recite metta for her
    thank you Taigu for this sharing, I hope you will see her again

    Gassho

    Yang hsin

  20. #70
    Taigu, this has touched me deeply.
    since i live in israel it is right at my door step.

    Gassho

    Dojin.
    I gained nothing at all from supreme enlightenment, and for that very reason it is called supreme enlightenment
    - the Buddha

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