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Thread: SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Sex Scandal Finger Wagging

  1. #1

    SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Sex Scandal Finger Wagging

    I want to wag my finger, not just at the Zen teachers caught in scandals recently (although at most of them too), but at the reactions of some folks to the scandals. Particularly, I want to call out:

    Those folks ... some of them fellow Buddhist priests or moderators of Buddhist forums ... who would seek to ignore, hide or explain away some of these scandals, like sweeping dirt under a rug. Shame on them, shame on all of us, and we are contributing in part to these things if we do not look them square on.

    But at the same time, I wish to question those folks who would lump all these so called "sex scandals" together ... both the few (very few!) true predators, date rapists, serial seducers and other abusers who misuse their role, trust and influence as "teachers" and clergy ... and those other folks who may have fallen into a very ordinary intimate affair between grown, mature consenting adults. All are not cut from the same cloth, and the second group should not be treated the same as the first. I most certainly agree that a teacher should almost never commence a sexual relationship with a student ... much as a psychologist should never have a sexual relationship with a patient ... because of the potential disparity in power, reliance, psychological influence and vulnerability between the parties. I also agree that those married clergy who fall into extra-marital affairs have cause to reflect on their actions in light of their marriage vows and the Precepts on honesty. But the fact of the matter is that Japanese Lineage clergy are not generally celibate, and there will be cases truly between consenting adults with no misuse or important trigger in the power, position or influence of the teacher as teacher or serious moral offense beyond someone breaking their marriage vows. While I see every reason to criticize ... and suspend or punish or defrock ... the real predators and power abusers, I see little reason to treat the same way every case of sexual doings, and let's be careful in distinguishing which is which.

    I also wag my finger at those folks who profess to have lost their trust in all Zen or Buddhist Teachers because of the missteps of a few. Baloney! A few bad apples do not spoil the whole apple orchard, and the fact is that most ... the vast majority of ... Buddhist Teachers I know are sincere, honest, dedicated, committed folks who generally would not hurt a fly.

    I also tisk tisk those folks who think that, because a Zen Master shows any failing at all ... from losing his cool from time to time, showing some weakness in personality, having some vice ... that completely disqualifies the teacher from all right and entitlement to teach (let along teach well!). Such a view is typical of the ZEN IDEALISTS AND ROMANTICS out there, looking for perfect Zen teachers without a fault or failing, who think that "Enlightenment" means never making a mistake in the words out of one's mouth, and never having a "bad hair day" again. TIME TO COME DOWN FROM THE CLOUDS! I would say that, if you are looking for a good Zen guide, find a man or woman who sometimes falls down, makes mistakes, makes a donkey's ass of him or herself... and observe closely what happens, watch how he or she does it. Oh, don't get me wrong... probably you do not want as a teacher someone who falls down each and every day, nor someone who falls down too BIG (robbing banks, lying profusely and intentionally starting fires, for example ... nor the few aforesaid predators or serial seducers). No, I mean someone who... every so often, now and then, like everyone... makes a fool of him/herself, loses his Zen Master cool, over-indulges, yields to temptation, does a real face-flop, says something she regrets, breaks some (hopefully not too big) Precepts in some very human way. Observe how does this person recover their balance? With what grace do they fall and, more importantly, get back up on their feet? Do they profoundly reflect on their mistakes, learn from them, apologize sincerely to anyone hurt (hopefully not too badly) ... and move on? As a matter of fact, since this crazy practice is greatly about living with some grace in this imperfect, often disappointing, trap and temptation filled world, a teacher with a couple of serious imperfections may be a good guide on how to avoid, lessen or escape the worst of it!

    That leads me, finally, to cluck cluck at two corollary misconceptions about Zen Teachers:

    The first misconception is that Zen Teachers ... Zen Masters ... are ever supposed to be as perfect as a Buddha, beyond all error and mistake, totally one with the universe, always doing what is to be done in every situation, always speaking with a Buddha's tongue, never possibly to trip or fall, at total peace and harmony and wholeness with all this self-life-world, each and all Golden Buddhas and Perfect Jewels. Hockey-pucks! That is the view of some overly idealistic folks who have read too many Lineage Legends and Sutra story books in which our religious heroes and icons ... after being dead and gone ... are dipped in gold and polished up into super-human characters. Sure, as in any religion, we have many TRULY saintly and inspired, enlightened and enlightening folks in our Tradition, living and dead. However, most of the image of "Zen Master" is a bit of religious hype and propaganda.

    In my view, a "master" is someone with some "mastery" in an art or tradition to practice, pass on and pass down ... from carpentry to medicine to martial arts to Zen Buddhary. It need not mean the "master" is perfect and never errs. One can be a "master carpenter", yet not every corner will always be smooth; a "master surgeon" and lifesaver of thousands, yet sometimes make a bad cut, bungled diagnosis or deadly error. However, one should be pretty darn skilled in applying the art in life, and much more skilled and competent than those without the skills required. As in mastery in the martial arts, there is no technique in Zen for never being hit or never losing one's footing ... let alone for winning every battle ... there is no training offered on how to never fall, but rather, endless training on how to fall well. Show me the man or woman who encounters life's obstacles, sunny and rainy days, loops and losses, ups and downs ... all the mess and mayhem of Samsara ... who may be sometimes knocked sideways or down ... but who demonstrates how to be hit well and recover one's footing ... and I will show you a great Zen teacher.

    One of the unfortunate aspects of religion is the tendency to put the leader or "guru" on a pedestal as being perfect, beyond any and all human failing ... always wise, never saying the wrong thing, always balanced and in control. The Lineage legends and Sutra story books tend to dip in gold and place on pedestals all our long dead ancestors, scrubbing them of every human failing. I think that unfortunate. Plenty of wannabe cult leaders are ready to play to such an image even now ... and plenty of "need a daddy to tell me what to do" students are ever willing to buy into it. That is a shame.

    In fact, there are really no "Zen Teachers" ... for Zen cannot be taught. The "Teachers" are more like experienced "Dharma Friends" offering tips and coaching to help the seeker do all the heavy lifting ... and sitting ... and living ... on their own.

    No, there are no Zen masters who are as perfect as a Buddha, beyond all error and mistake, totally one with the universe, always doing what is to be done in every situation, always speaking with a Buddha's tongue, never possibly to trip or fall, at total peace and harmony and wholeness with all this self-life-world, each and all a Golden Buddha and Perfect Jewel.

    But that leads to the last misconception:

    For, in fact, ALL Zen masters (even the predators and abusers!) are as perfect as a Buddha, beyond all error and mistake, totally one with the universe, always doing what is to be done in every situation, always speaking with a Buddha's tongue, never possibly to trip or fall, at total peace and harmony and wholeness with all this self-life-world, each and all Golden Buddhas and Perfect Jewels. TRULY! I KID YOU NOT!

    Sound like a contradiction? (Zen had lots of those!)

    You see, so are you ... and all people ... and every mountain and tree and star! Each and All Buddha, Beyond Error and Mistake, totally at one piece and harmony and wholeness with the universe, all preaching with a Buddha's tongue, with no place possibly to fall etc. etc. "Enlightenment" is a realization that there is no place to fall, ultimately no self to stumble, no "mistake" that can ever be made. All things are Perfect Jewels in their way, Whole. That is true. But it is just as true that there is no place to fall, no stumbling or possible mistake... even as we may fall and stumble and make mistakes!

    The Zen Master should simply realize (know and embody) that fact more than the average bloke ... and hopefully have some skill in helping her students realize such too in their lives.

    Here is my further, long rambling on this topic ...

    Last edited by Jundo; 08-28-2012 at 07:31 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  2. #2
    Friend of Treeleaf Myozan Kodo's Avatar
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    Hi Jundo,
    Thank you for this talk. It reminds me why I am with Treeleaf sangha.
    Thank you.
    Myozan
    Myozan Kodo
    Ordained Soto Zen Priest in Training
    Dublin, Ireland

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.
    "Here the way unfolds."

  3. #3
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Jundo,

    Thank you for this teaching...especially for an inexperienced unsui such as myself who seems to fall into traps of perfectionism and overthinking again and again. If I do become a priest someday, it will be because I have accepted that I will not become some perfect being who never falls into those traps ever again! And nor would I want to because that would make me so full of myself I'd be of little use to anyone.

    Gassho,
    Dosho
    Ordained Priest -In-Training & Shuso (Head Seat) for November - Ango 2014
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    Please take what I say with a grain of salt, especially in matters of the Dharma!

  4. #4
    Friend of Treeleaf Daido's Avatar
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    Jundo,

    Thank you for your commitment to transparency to our sangha and the dharma. A great lesson. All of life is our temple.

    Gassho,

    Daido
    Jiken Daido - Unsui at Treeleaf's Brother Sangha, the Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage.

    Do not just accept what I say. Decide for yourself if it rings true for you

  5. #5
    That was awesome! Thank you.

    When you say "ALL Zen masters (even the predators and abusers!) are as perfect as a Buddha", do you mean that from a perspective of emptiness or capacity? For example that those individuals have the capacity to be a Buddha even if their actions betray that Buddha nature? I always get hung up on that perspective.

    Gassho,

    Risho

  6. #6
    Treeleaf Engineer Seimyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daido View Post
    Jundo,

    Thank you for your commitment to transparency to our sangha and the dharma. A great lesson. All of life is our temple.

    Gassho,

    Daido
    Just as Daido said. A very fair perspective and talk.

    Thank you. Gassho,
    Chris

  7. #7
    Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest Taigu's Avatar
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    Gassho, Bro ,from a crooked teacher, a Jack of all trades and a master of none.


    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Koshin's Avatar
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    Thank you Jundo

    I am so happy to be part of a Sangha where we can talk so freely about this issues. After all, as Daido says, ALL of life...

    Gassho
    ______________________________
    Kōshin / Leo



    P.S. Yup, I know, my English sucks

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Risho View Post
    When you say "ALL Zen masters (even the predators and abusers!) are as perfect as a Buddha", do you mean that from a perspective of emptiness or capacity? For example that those individuals have the capacity to be a Buddha even if their actions betray that Buddha nature? I always get hung up on that perspective.

    Gassho,

    Risho
    Yes, that is what I mean. There are folks all over the place who may have a "masterful" realization of the pristine wholeness of Emptiness and such, but yet are absolutely unmasterful at putting that to practice in life. Or masterful sometimes about putting that to practice in life, but not at other times or ways in life (all of us really).

    That's why they call it "Practice" ... and awakening to the allness of "realization" is not all, and is to be followed by "realization" (making it real) by how one lives life. That's the tricky part.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-29-2012 at 05:23 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  10. #10
    Jundo ... thank you for this teaching. Like others have said, I like how you talk about the "tuff" or "sore" spots and do it with grace, compassion, and clarity.

    Gassho
    Michael

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
    倫道 真現

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Ronchan's Avatar
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    Thank you, Jundo

    Gassho
    Ronald
    With gentleness overcome anger. With generosity overcome meanness. With truth overcome deceit.
    Buddha

  12. #12
    Treeleaf Unsui Shokai's Avatar
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    Jundo; I'll say it again, I love your passion. Thank you for this incisive teaching.
    gassho, Shokai, still learning the way and knowing nothing
    仁道 生開 - Jindo Shokai "Open to life in a benevolent way"
    Just another itinerant monk; go somewhere else to listen to someone who really knows.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    I would say that, if you are looking for a good Zen guide, find a man or woman who sometimes falls down, makes mistakes, makes a donkey's ass of him or herself... and observe closely what happens, watch how he or she does it. Oh, don't get me wrong... probably you do not want as a teacher someone who falls down each and every day, nor someone who falls down too BIG (robbing banks, lying profusely and intentionally starting fires, for example ... nor the few aforesaid predators or serial seducers). No, I mean someone who... every so often, now and then, like everyone... makes a fool of him/herself, loses his Zen Master cool, over-indulges, yields to temptation, does a real face-flop, says something she regrets, breaks some (hopefully not too big) Precepts in some very human way. [B]Observe how does this person recover their balance? With what grace do they fall and, more importantly, get back up on their feet? Do they profoundly reflect on their mistakes, learn from them, apologize sincerely to anyone hurt (hopefully not too badly) ... and move on? As a matter of fact, since this crazy practice is greatly about living with some grace in this imperfect, often disappointing, trap and temptation filled world, a teacher with a couple of serious imperfections may be a good guide on how to avoid, lessen or escape the worst of it!
    Thank you, Jundo, for this beautiful teaching. Grace in face-flops, recovering, and moving on.


    Gassho, kojip
    大山

  14. #14
    Jundo - thank you for this down to earth teaching.

    Gassho

    Willow

  15. #15
    "As in mastery in the martial arts, there is no technique in Zen for never being hit or never losing one's footing ... let alone for winning every battle ... there is no training offered on how to never fall, but rather, endless training on how to fall well. "
    Great teaching, thank you.
    Kosen.

  16. #16
    Hi Jundo,

    thank you for this teaching. I wanted to believe in infallible Buddhist masters a very long time, but perhaps this was just the hope to get rid of my own responsibility for what I do ;-)

    I once visited a workshop for ancient meditation practices at the University of Hamburg in Germany and we had a discussion about the infallibility of the Buddha himself with the help of a text of the Pali-Canon:

    Vesali sutta SN V 320 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....009.than.html)

    The questions of the workshop were:
    Is this story just fiction? Did the Buddha teach the wrong practice (to the wrong people at the wrong place)? Had this teaching a special meaning beyond our imagination? Or was it just the fault of the students, who exaggerated this practice?

    Gassho
    Bianca
    Gassho,
    Bianca

  17. #17
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
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    Thank you, Jundo. I should play this video to my aunt.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Yes, that is what I mean. There are folks all over the place who may have a "masterful" realization of the pristine wholeness of Emptiness and such, but yet are absolutely unmasterful at putting that to practice in life. Or masterful sometimes about putting that to practice in life, but not at other times or ways in life (all of us really).

    That's why they call it "Practice" ... and awakening to the allness of "realization" is not all, and is to be followed by "realization" (making it real) by how one lives life. That's the tricky part.

    Gassho, J
    Thank you... yep that is damned tricky. I just explode sometimes (not physically aggressive) but a habitual outburst of anger when I don't get my way. It's easy to point fingers, but it's a lot more difficult to look at our own habits as you more eloquently put at the end of your talk. Thank you very much.

    Gassho,

    Risho

  19. #19
    Hello,

    Thank you for this. Always good to remember that even the masters fall sometime.

    Metta and Gassho,

    Saijun

  20. #20
    Thank you, Jundo.
    Gassho,
    Kaishin

  21. #21
    Thank you Jundo, for a reasoned & reasonable response to a highly emotive subject.

    _/\_

    Ade

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Marla567 View Post
    Hi Jundo,

    thank you for this teaching. I wanted to believe in infallible Buddhist masters a very long time, but perhaps this was just the hope to get rid of my own responsibility for what I do ;-)

    I once visited a workshop for ancient meditation practices at the University of Hamburg in Germany and we had a discussion about the infallibility of the Buddha himself with the help of a text of the Pali-Canon:

    Vesali sutta SN V 320 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....009.than.html)

    The questions of the workshop were:
    Is this story just fiction? Did the Buddha teach the wrong practice (to the wrong people at the wrong place)? Had this teaching a special meaning beyond our imagination? Or was it just the fault of the students, who exaggerated this practice?

    Gassho
    Bianca
    Hi Bianca,

    Thank you for posting this. Yes, very interesting to see that Buddha seemingly make a miscalculation in offering a teaching so critical of the ugliness and impurity of the human body that it drove dozens of his monks to mass suicide! Oooops! Interesting too that the Buddha does not seem to particularly apologize or express regret for the mistake or unintended result (at least, as the Sutra reads), but simply moves on to a better way of teaching.

    And even more interesting is that what the Buddha then teaches is a kind of meditation of breath and self-awareness that ties in very much with the discussion between Taigu and Galen in the thread on Book of Equanimity Case 12.

    Then the Blessed One ... he addressed the monks: "Monks, this concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is both peaceful & exquisite, a refreshing & pleasant abiding that immediately disperses & allays any evil, unskillful [mental] qualities that have arisen. ... [1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'

    If I may comment on that, there is no doubt that the Buddha taught such ways of meditation (in the Anapanasati Sutta and other places), as well as supposedly many many other techniques of meditation. We might consider them all very good for their purposes, and different medicines for different folks. Even some forms of Shikantaza place focus on the breath to one degree or another. However, it is just that we do not emphasize that here ... as the emphasis of Shikantaza of just letting what is be what is ... and not seeklng or running after any attainment (thereby opening the door to the marvelous attainment of Profound Non-Attainment) means that we just leave the breath as the breath. Generally, we do not do anything with the breath, except to allow it to find its own, natural, easy rhythm.

    Dogen Zenji said in the Eihei-koroku Vol. 5 (unfortunately using that perjorative term "Hinayana/Lesser Vehicle" for many of the Practices of the Suttas and South Asian Buddhiam):

    In Hinayana, there are two elementary ways: one is to count the breaths, and the other is to contemplate the impurity (of the body). In other words, a practitioner of Hinayana regulates his breathing by counting the breaths. The practice of the Buddha-ancestors, however, is completely different from the way of Hinayana. An ancestral teacher has said, “It is better to have the mind of a wily fox than to follow the way of Hinayana self-control.” Two of the Hinayana schools (studied) in Japan today are the precept school (Shibunritsu) and the school based on Abhidharma-kosa (Kusha).


    There is also the Mahayana way of regulating breathing. That is, knowing that a long breath is long and that a short one is short. The breath reaches the tanden and leaves from there. Although the exhalation and inhalation are different, they both pass through the tanden. When you breathe abdominally, it is easy to become aware of the transiency (of life), and to harmonize the mind.


    My late teacher Tendo said, “The inhaled breath reaches the tanden; however, it is not that this breath comes from somewhere. For that reason, it is neither short nor long. The exhaled breath leaves from the tanden; however, it is not possible to say where this breath goes. For that reason, it is neither long nor short”. My teacher explained it in that way, and if someone were to ask me how to harmonize one's breathing, I would reply in this way: although it is not Mahayana, it is different from Hinayana; though it is not Hinayana, it is different from Mahayana. And if questioned further regarding what it is ultimately, I would respond that inhaling or exhaling are neither long nor short.


    It is, after all, goalless "just sitting".

    Excuse the detour from the main topic of this thread.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-31-2012 at 12:58 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Marla567 View Post
    I wanted to believe in infallible Buddhist masters a very long time, but perhaps this was just the hope to get rid of my own responsibility for what I do ;-)
    Hello Bianca,

    I've recently found this belief to be very sly and insidious, at least for me. My long absence was, in effect, a time for me to deal with the final, monumental, crashing end to that particular belief.

    Also, thank you for sharing that Sutta; I've not read it before, and it is a very good reminder in this practice.

    Metta and Gassho,

    Saijun

  24. #24
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Thank you, Jundo,

    Before reading your response I read the Sutra, and after hearing of the monks self-annihilation, I seemingly had no feelings of a misguided teaching here. Yes, the large number who took this action was seemingly large, but maybe in the truer sense, it was just one... (Carl Jung: an `unconscious collective action, being a whole) It seems his lack of remorse or even taking notice, had served his lesson well. From my take, no-taking, or so called reasoning or lack there of, it seemed to me he was giving praise to, and acceptance of, unattractiveness. That seemed to be his lesson, unless I fell of the cliff [hello!]! In the monks taking this shaming to their death, the timing was perfect for their level of mindfulness at this time, their karma came to the fore, something to be worked out in the next time around and around, lesson served in their drive to be perfect and this perfection played out in the perfect timing of their deaths, no death. It was seemingly time for them to move on, get on the train as it leaving the station. A lesson of unmindfulness of the Big minded picture/perception, and to be worked through the next incarnation, of which could be continuous carnations for their level of awareness or lack of mindfulness.

    A lesson on the perfection of non-perfection of Zen. In Suzukiís The Marrow of Zen, he points to this... Those who can sit perfectly physically usually take more time to obtain the true `way of Zen, the actual feelings of Zen, the marrow of Zen. He also points to Dogenís Shoshaku jushaku: to succeed wrong with wrong, or one continuous mistake... ie, one continuous mistake can also be Zen. It keeps you on the track always moving forward (my words)... This means so many years of Ďone single-minded effort.

    There is no reaching It, no perfect `way to sit or be, that could also be the perfection of being 'filled up with emptiness'. There seemingly is only process, down the endless track of unattractiveness being beautiful and all fulfilling.... of nothing. In hoping this made no-sense in my senselessness!!


    _/\_

    galen
    Last edited by galen; 08-30-2012 at 05:47 PM.
    Nothing Special

  25. #25
    Senior Member Heisoku's Avatar
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    Thank you for your open and passionate teachings and to echo Myozan, this is why I am with Treeleaf. Gassho.
    Heisoku
    平 息

  26. #26
    Nice one!
    Thank you.

    Gassho,
    /Pontus
    In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
    you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
    now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
    the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

  27. #27
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Risho;84092]That was awesome! Thank you.

    When you say "ALL Zen masters (even the predators and abusers!) are as perfect as a Buddha", do you mean that from a perspective of emptiness or capacity? For example that those individuals have the capacity to be a Buddha even if their actions betray that Buddha nature? I always get hung up on that perspective.

    Gassho,


    My takeless take... yes capacity, in that we All have Buddha nature, or truest nature. It could be said, all actions are Buddha nature, that will lead/direct us to our true nature from our trials and errors of this `world..... from the 3 Ps of Zen: from the master Nakagawa-roshi to an american ex-business man, Nov, 8th 1953... 'Put your mind in the bottom of your belly (hara), there's a blind Buddha there, make him see.'


    _/\_

    galen
    Nothing Special

  28. #28
    Senior Member Daisho's Avatar
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    The refusal to deny the existence of psychological and sexual abuse in any group, religious, philosophical or otherwise is necessary to remain healthy, positive and healing to followers and participants. Thank you Jundo, for reminding me of this. I believe that none of us can afford to be put on a pedestal or vice versa.

    Personally ignoring my faults and defects stops any chance of growth or change to take place. Jeanne, my dear friend and mentor, when talking to me about an incident that reflected my tendency toward perfectionism informed me that we are all FHBs (Fallible Human Beings). Luckily, that was planted an grew in my mind. Sometimes at work I forget that and pay the price of feeling guilt and worthlessness that I've talked about before.

    Treeleaf is great! Thank you again Jundo for your talk.
    Gassho,

    Daisho


    (Jack K.)

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Risho View Post
    That was awesome! Thank you.

    When you say "ALL Zen masters (even the predators and abusers!) are as perfect as a Buddha", do you mean that from a perspective of emptiness or capacity? For example that those individuals have the capacity to be a Buddha even if their actions betray that Buddha nature? I always get hung up on that perspective.

    Gassho,

    Risho
    I would guess that Jundo is mostly speaking about the perspective of emptiness, but there is no real difference. Tricky thing, this "what is buddha nature?" question!

    If we think we have resolved it once and for all, we can be certain that we are stuck!

    In my view, everone has the ability to be a buddha, to actualize, realize buddha (make buddha real in our lives), even predators and abusers. There are no predetermined sinners or saints. Originally all are buddha.

    And in my view of buddha nature (which is just a view), you can't betray buddha nature, because nothing is separate from it. Greed, hate and delusion is buddha nature too...

    Gassho,
    Pontus
    Last edited by Omoi Otoshi; 08-31-2012 at 06:53 AM.
    In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
    you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
    now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
    the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

  30. #30
    Senior Member Ekai's Avatar
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    Thank you for this great teaching.

    Gassho,
    EKai

  31. #31
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Jundo,

    In the continuous discussion of breath and the direction of non emphasis of such, in past threads, for me, I was sharing a non-sitting, awake in the `world method to help me stay in-body, with what I was or was not doing (or what Hahn called awake meditation). Only as a technic till no technic is needed and it becomes more natural to stay present. I get the emphasis of the teachings here (or am getting) of emphasizing Shikantaza, but it seems one can not just be there at once, as anything, it takes time to be in touch with That goaless goal. I can only speak for my small self here, but depending on depth of sleep and/or, the awake focus of my day in the `world, there can be huge amounts of mental chatter of the ego games (monkey mind), and I am sure I am not alone here (and a good chance it is also true for you and Taigu). So what is better, to emphasize or not to emphasize any`thing, and if not careful, cannot this also become an attachment? As a long term goaless goal of just letting breath be, as it may, what does that do for the sometimes insanity of the mindless mind here and now? Long term, in the usage of Shikantaza direction, concept, I can see and even feel its brilliant influence moving to the Bigger mind. But what about today, what about nowness? Should one not use a pacifier (how is that young one?) to attempt to quiet the sometimes insanity of the chattering fool who sometimes is more of an Ass then a monkey.......... what then? It seems emphasis on a certain, not so certain `way, if good and well intentions, words and concepts do not always bring immediate peace, and attempts at grounding in the present. And it also could be said, getting hung up on not following awake breath could become a clinging attachment.


    _/\_

    galen
    Nothing Special

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by galen View Post
    Jundo,

    In the continuous discussion of breath and the direction of non emphasis of such, in past threads, for me, I was sharing a non-sitting, awake in the `world method to help me stay in-body, with what I was or was not doing (or what Hahn called awake meditation). Only as a technic till no technic is needed and it becomes more natural to stay present. I get the emphasis of the teachings here (or am getting) of emphasizing Shikantaza, but it seems one can not just be there at once, as anything, it takes time to be in touch with That goaless goal. I can only speak for my small self here, but depending on depth of sleep and/or, the awake focus of my day in the `world, there can be huge amounts of mental chatter of the ego games (monkey mind), and I am sure I am not alone here (and a good chance it is also true for you and Taigu). So what is better, to emphasize or not to emphasize any`thing, and if not careful, cannot this also become an attachment? As a long term goaless goal of just letting breath be, as it may, what does that do for the sometimes insanity of the mindless mind here and now? Long term, in the usage of Shikantaza direction, concept, I can see and even feel its brilliant influence moving to the Bigger mind. But what about today, what about nowness? Should one not use a pacifier (how is that young one?) to attempt to quiet the sometimes insanity of the chattering fool who sometimes is more of an Ass then a monkey.......... what then? It seems emphasis on a certain, not so certain `way, if good and well intentions, words and concepts do not always bring immediate peace, and attempts at grounding in the present. And it also could be said, getting hung up on not following awake breath could become a clinging attachment.


    _/\_

    galen
    Hi Galen,

    Shikantaza is an unusual path of meditation, and thus its brilliance.

    You write: it takes time to be in touch with That goaless goal.

    If you think it takes "time" to reach the goalless goal, and that it is somewhere distant (i.e., a "goal" to reach), then it is a another goal far away in time and place.

    If you forget about time and distance and any goal, here it is all along, ever so.

    The "goalless goal" is not a goal ... it is the dropping of all need for any goal, anything to do or need for doing. If you think that you must do ... or stop doing ... something to reach the goalless goal, then you are doing something. If you radically, to the marrow, drop all need both to do or to stop doing ... then that's DOING IT RIGHT!

    Kind of a wonderfully sane-crazy Catch 22.

    The way to be the Biggest Mind of All is not to try to move to some "Bigger mind" by any technique, including following the breath or quieting the thoughts. There is no place to move, and no place to get ... and the way to get that fact is to radically stop all need to move or any "technique". Then, one gets someplace wonderful where one was along along (but might not have seen for all the judgments and need).

    If the monkey mind is jumping, let him jump. Soon he will settle down and be still. Then you will probably feel very peaceful and whole. However, when the monkey mind starts jumping again, you may assume that is bad. Such a judgment is a mistake. Your see, jumping monkey or resting monkey ... all just the very same zoo. Neither is to be rejected in favor of the other (Samsara/Delusion is simply Enlightenment ... as is stillness). Nonetheless, we do appreciate the resting monkey because we find a perspective on the "mind games" of the jumping monkey and how to keep him from running out of control. The best way to quiet the monkey is to stop pocking him with a stick, and just radically leave him alone. The monkey will take a rest. He will settle.

    Thus, there is no need to control the breath ... or control the thoughts ... or to control the monkey ... and just give up all trying and resistance, whereby they will each naturally settle down on their own. Strange how that works.

    Here is another essay on Shikantaza for you to look at ...

    A Non-Self Fulfilling Prophesy
    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...lling-Prophesy

    HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ... by dropping all need and effort to attain enlightenment ... thus, enlightenment immediately attained!
    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...-ENLIGHTENMENT

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-31-2012 at 04:51 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  33. #33
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi Galen,

    Shikantaza is an unusual path of meditation, and thus its brilliance.

    You write: it takes time to be in touch with That goaless goal.

    If you think it takes "time" to reach the goalless goal, and that it is somewhere distant (i.e., a "goal" to reach), then it is a another goal far away in time and place.

    If you forget about time and distance and any goal, here it is all along, ever so.

    The "goalless goal" is not a goal ... it is the dropping of all need for any goal, anything to do or need for doing. If you think that you must do ... or stop doing ... something to reach the goalless goal, then you are doing something. If you radically, to the marrow, drop all need both to do or to stop doing ... then that's DOING IT RIGHT!

    Kind of a wonderfully sane-crazy Catch 22.

    The way to be the Biggest Mind of All is not to try to move to some "Bigger mind" by any technique, including following the breath or quieting the thoughts. There is no place to move, and no place to get ... and the way to get that fact is to radically stop all need to move or any "technique". Then, one gets someplace wonderful where one was along along (but might not have seen for all the judgments and need).

    If the monkey mind is jumping, let him jump. Soon he will settle down and be still. Then you will probably feel very peaceful and whole. However, when the monkey mind starts jumping again, you may assume that is bad. Such a judgment is a mistake. Your see, jumping monkey or resting monkey ... all just the very same zoo. Neither is to be rejected in favor of the other (Samsara/Delusion is simply Enlightenment ... as is stillness). Nonetheless, we do appreciate the resting monkey because we find a perspective on the "mind games" of the jumping monkey and how to keep him from running out of control. The best way to quiet the monkey is to stop pocking him with a stick, and just radically leave him alone. The monkey will take a rest. He will settle.

    Thus, there is no need to control the breath ... or control the thoughts ... or to control the monkey ... and just give up all trying and resistance, whereby they will each naturally settle down on their own. Strange how that works.

    Here is another essay on Shikantaza for you to look at ...

    A Non-Self Fulfilling Prophesy
    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...lling-Prophesy

    HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ... by dropping all need and effort to attain enlightenment ... thus, enlightenment immediately attained!
    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...-ENLIGHTENMENT

    Gassho, J


    Nice, thank you for that. And I will get back to finish what you have posted.....
    Nothing Special

  34. #34
    Very well said, Jundo,
    thank you for saying what you say, for being how you be, thank you!
    _()_
    Myoku (refering to the original post)

  35. #35
    The goaless goal is not a goal. Thank you Jundo ... Brilliant!

    Gassho
    Michael

    Sent from my GT-S5660M using Tapatalk 2
    倫道 真現

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  36. #36
    Friends of Treeleaf Dokan's Avatar
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    Thank you Jundo!

    Gassho,

    Dokan

    PS - Up on Podcast. Sorry for the delay!
    We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.
    ~AnaÔs Nin

  37. #37
    Senior Member kirkmc's Avatar
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    Off-topic, but, hey Jundo, you've moved all your hair around. I almost didn't recognize you there. :-)

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by kirkmc View Post
    Off-topic, but, hey Jundo, you've moved all your hair around. I almost didn't recognize you there. :-)
    Let er grow free while camping with the bears in Hokkaido. Back to the skinhead now. Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  39. #39
    Senior Member YuimaSLC's Avatar
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    I've been a little reluctant to comment on the sexual scandal issue but now have decided to add one more dimension to the matter, complicity.

    First, I don't want to defend or detract from the responsibilities that any of these, or other teachers have towards the sangha and themselves in these matters. And certainly don't wish to downplay
    all the valuable comments preceding this one. My contribution is meant to add to it.

    I think there needs to be another kind of serious caution/admonitions towards students/disciples: Don't bask in (your perceived) warmth and glory of the teacher and try to take 'something' for your own."

    There are plenty of folks in various walks of life who are smitten by other's fame/fortune/intellect/physique/you-name-it, and pursue getting some of "it". Obviously, this kind of attraction works in many realms, including the religious one. It happens in the fields of entertainment, business, politics....anywhere there is a perception of someone more magnificent than yourself.

    And, to think that your teacher was particularly drawn to you (perhaps with your help) may serve as a means of making your self feel really special, unique. And, if that means you and the other disregarded precepts to do it.....well that might just make someone feel that the risk taken might even be more special. Think of the sacrifice in the name of "me". Wow! I am special.

    Okay. Well that's it. All participants need to be aware. And perhaps an appropriate amount of caution needs to be applied in any instance of "who is pursuing who".

    Gassho

    Richard

  40. #40
    Thank you, Richard. I think teachers of all sorts ... from high schools to Zendos ... have the main responsibility to catch that kinds of thing when it is starting on the part of a student and nip it in the bud. However, students need to be aware of the tendency too.

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  41. #41
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Thank you, Richard. I think teachers of all sorts ... from high schools to Zendos ... have the main responsibility to catch that kinds of thing when it is starting on the part of a student and nip it in the bud. However, students need to be aware of the tendency too.

    Gassho, J
    It seems like a fine line for the teacher to not buy into the [suck-up] idolatry that can easy happen. Many learners, seekers, can be quite vulnerable, and need attention (of course like some teachers, who get puffed up from it). Maybe through a tough love approach, being careful to be subtle in that lesson can be hard. It seems pretty hard for students to be aware of this for the most part, but you make a case for that also. And as you say, the buck stops mostly with the power of having the high seat.
    Nothing Special

  42. #42
    Jundo, thanks for this important teaching and. Disscussion.

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