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Thread: Buddha and Christ

  1. #51
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi View Post
    I have this idea that not all that is of human construct is small minded. What mind constructs our ideas? The small mind out of greed, aversion and delusion? Or the big mind, out of wisdom, clarity, compassion? The big mind (Buddha mind, empty mind, beginner's mind), can also arise while fully interacting with the world, in the midst of thoughts, ideas, emotions, not only in some special state of profound samadhi, outside of time and space. The middle way is integrating both halves of the truth, the absolute and the relative, into one truth, one reality, one beautiful way of living. Everything said about this this truth is not true, misses the mark. That's why all words are only pointing to the moon. The middle way has to be realized directly, which is the aimless aim of Zen buddhist practice. So should we all just sit down and shut up? Sometimes yes, but not always. I think the exchange of ideas is vitally important. When we get stuck, unconsciously clinging to an idea, another idea, another point of view, may be what is needed, the correct medicine, what sets us free. Right then, for that person, in that moment, that is Right View. I'm not sure you can say that the idea of emptiness is generally less delusional than the idea of an eternal true self, or even god. Buddhists say it a lot. Out of wisdom or ignorance? What is pointed at is beyond description. Buddhism is also just an idea. Relinquishing all views, Buddha dies, Atman dies, God dies. And everything comes alive.

    Gassho,
    Pontus

    Now that was some great eloquent bla bla bla, and how ideas arise and resolve. From my limited perspective, you said it well, Pontus.
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  2. #52
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    When I attempted to take on ideas here, it was something that jumped out, good or bad, wrongly or rightly. So last night I was 'monkey minding' about our idea discussion and something was telling me that I had gotten some of my take from ZMBM. So I grabbed the book and went through some of the earlier chapters, which I had read about 2 months back and came to the chapter on No Dualism, page 33. I was surprised that I had come as close as I did, even with some twisting and confusion, I was all around it. Suzuki starts out right away by saying... 'our practice should be without gaining ideas', and then he takes a more depth look, at and through, 'form is emptiness and emptiness is form' and clarifies the non duality of this with 'form is form and emptiness is emptiness'. Most of which has been touched on in this discussion right here. So Pontus, you need to dust this book off again, and take another gander at ZMBM.
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  3. #53
    I really do need to dust off that book!

    The point about not having gaining ideas is very, very important. At least it has been in my practice.

    Gassho,
    Pontus
    In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
    you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
    now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
    the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

  4. #54
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi View Post
    I really do need to dust off that book!

    The point about not having gaining ideas is very, very important. At least it has been in my practice.

    Gassho,
    Pontus

    It seems many people who have been doing the Zen thing for some time, probably have moved on from this book thinking they have out-grown it or have fallen for more romantic/charismatic writers and teachings. And right there misses the point of remembering in Zen we are all beginners, as some have gotten a little filled up with themselves on intellectualism and concepts, and that is the point Suzuki points to. Its the basics, and just like in sports, once you feel/think the need is no longer there, that is when you need it/them the most. Take care, and thanks for the discussion.
    Last edited by galen; 10-03-2012 at 09:32 PM.
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  5. #55
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi View Post
    I really do need to dust off that book!

    The point about not having gaining ideas is very, very important. At least it has been in my practice.

    Gassho,
    Pontus


    Pontus.......... if or when you do decide to re-read ZMBM, let me know your take on page 7 on Posture, whether there is some disagreement with Jundos take on not-2. Suzuki seems to see it from a different perspective. Jundo, don't way-in till Pontus posts his own take.
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  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by galen View Post
    Pontus.......... if or when you do decide to re-read ZMBM, let me know your take on page 7 on Posture, whether there is some disagreement with Jundos take on not-2. Suzuki seems to see it from a different perspective. Jundo, don't way-in till Pontus posts his own take.
    Hello Galen,

    Respectfully, this reads like you've come into a practice place and assumed the role of teacher.

    Metta and Gassho,

    Saijun
    To give up yourself without regret is the greatest charity. --RBB

  7. #57
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saijun View Post
    Hello Galen,

    Respectfully, this reads like you've come into a practice place and assumed the role of teacher.

    Metta and Gassho,

    Saijun


    And with your statement, what about you !? But nice projection, I do say. Each to his own, teacher. But in all due respect, thanks for the lecture.
    Nothing Special

  8. #58
    Treeleaf Unsui Dosho's Avatar
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    Galen,

    I agree with Saijun. Don't tell sangha members, especially teachers, what to do. Ask nicely, please.

    Gassho,
    Dosho
    Last edited by Dosho; 10-03-2012 at 11:55 PM.
    Shudo Dosho - Ordained Priest-in-Training
    With your help and guidance from Jundo & Taigu
    I am learning, but please take what I say with a
    grain of salt, especially in matters of the Dharma.

  9. #59
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dosho View Post
    Galen,

    I agree with Saijun. Don't tell sangha members, especially teachers, what to do. Ask nicely, please.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

    And that is fine. I meant no harm to Jundo and do not think he would take it that way. I was just wanted an unadulterated view from Pontus. Jundo can very well take care of himself, and knows respect runs both ways. And don't tell me what to do, in your own projection.
    Nothing Special

  10. #60
    disastermouse
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    Quote Originally Posted by galen View Post
    And that is fine. I meant no harm to Jundo and do not think he would take it that way. I was just wanted an unadulterated view from Pontus. Jundo can very well take care of himself, and knows respect runs both ways. And don't tell me what to do, in your own projection.
    I challenge you to reply to criticism without using the word or concept of projection. Not all criticism can be so deflected. You sound like a Psych 101 student who's found a term to misuse in defense of his need to always be right. Not all criticism is projection just as not all defenses are denial. I wanted to come at you harder after your condescending response to my earlier post, but I figured I'd wait to see whether my instincts were correct.

    No one wants to argue, we simply ask that you proceed with some respect towards the people with whom you share this space.

    You remind me of someone for whom I have a soft spot....I can't...*ahem*...quite put my finger on who it is though....

    Chet

  11. #61
    For Christ-Buddha's Sake! Everybody cool it!

    This is like Jesus and Buddha having a fistfight!

    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  12. #62
    By the way (yes, my perogative to jump in ), in Suzuki's "Zen Mind Beginner's Mind" on Posture, I don't see anything he is teaching that is but "not-2" ...

    Now I would like to talk about our zazen posture. When you sit in the full lotus position, your left foot is on your right thigh, and your right foot is on your left thigh. When we cross our legs like this, even though we have a right leg and a left leg, they have become one. The position expresses the oneness of duality: not two, and not one. This is the most important teaching: not two, and not one. Our body and mind are not two and not one. If you think your body and mind are two, that is wrong; if you think that they are one, that is also wrong. Our body and mind are both two and one. We usually think that if something is not one, it is more than one; if it is not singular, it is plural. But in actual experience, our life is not only plural, but also singular. Each one of us is both dependent and independent. After some years we will die. If we just think that it is the end of our life, this will be the wrong understanding. But, on the other hand, if we think that we do not die, this is also wrong. We die, and we do not die. This is the right understanding. Some people may say that our mind or soul exists forever, and it is only our physical body which dies. But this is not exactly right, because both mind and body have their end. But at the same time it is also true that they exist eternally. And even though we say mind and body, they are actually two sides of one coin. This is the right understanding. So when we take this posture it symbolizes this truth.


    By the way ... Jesus and Buddha are "not two".

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  13. #63
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by disastermouse View Post
    I challenge you to reply to criticism without using the word or concept of projection. Not all criticism can be so deflected. You sound like a Psych 101 student who's found a term to misuse in defense of his need to always be right. Not all criticism is projection just as not all defenses are denial. I wanted to come at you harder after your condescending response to my earlier post, but I figured I'd wait to see whether my instincts were correct.

    No one wants to argue, we simply ask that you proceed with some respect towards the people with whom you share this space.

    You remind me of someone for whom I have a soft spot....I can't...*ahem*...quite put my finger on who it is though....

    Chet


    Everything in phenomena is projection.
    Nothing Special

  14. #64
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    For Christ-Buddha's Sake! Everybody cool it!

    This is like Jesus and Buddha having a fistfight!



    Thanks!
    Nothing Special

  15. #65
    galen, this is not a video game or a projection story.
    It is your life -death. Beyond, much beyond what you make of it.

    take care


    gassho

    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  16. #66
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    galen, this is not a video game or a projection story.
    It is your life -death. Beyond, much beyond what you make of it.

    take care


    gassho

    Taigu


    Thank you for your perception here, Taigu. I will wash it through my mind.
    Nothing Special

  17. #67
    By the way Willow, galen ...If I may, these clumsy words opening the ten oxherding pictures talks... Or what to do with a question...



    take care and be well

    gassho


    Taigu
    Taigu, teacher at Treeleaf Sangha, was born in 1964, started Zazen early and received Shukke Tokudo in 1983 at age 18 from Rev. Mokusho Zeisler of the Deshimaru Lineage. Received Dharma Transmission from Chodo Cross in 2002. Now resides in Osaka, Japan.

  18. #68
    Love that bell, Taigu. Will keep my ears open for one of them.
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

  19. #69
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Thank you, Taigu,

    I have read the ox herding steps, and there were even 10. I say that because, I guess one or two steps were added to the original, the last being, getting off the ox and going among the market (people) and totally being one-with, with not even a hair of separation. I look forward to hearing your discussion. I feel I have at least spotted the tracks .
    Last edited by galen; 10-05-2012 at 12:30 AM.
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  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by galen View Post
    Pontus.......... if or when you do decide to re-read ZMBM, let me know your take on page 7 on Posture, whether there is some disagreement with Jundos take on not-2. Suzuki seems to see it from a different perspective. Jundo, don't way-in till Pontus posts his own take.
    Hi Galen,

    Suzuki's, Jundo's and Taigu's pointing is very similar and pointing to the same moon. If you ask me, Jundo's take might even be closer to Suzuki than even Nishijima or Sawaki in this regard (but I could be wrong of course). I see no real difference in perspective. Do you think of something in particular?

    Posture is a personal thing. I prefer the lotus position for different reasons, but there are several classic positions to choose from, so if you can't sit lotus, no big deal. When I started sitting, knowing that I was sitting in the exact same position as Gautama and all the ancestors gave me the reassurance I needed, a kinship or connection, helped me find the Buddha mind. It's also a very practical position in that it's very stable. I find it easier to trust my body and let go in this position than in any other. And for me, it's neither too comfortable, nor too painful.

    Then there is the symbolism, or the tantric dimension of posture, that is different to every practitioner I suppose. I like Suzuki's take regarding the legs. You can also find meaning in the upright spine, the position of the arms, the shape of the mudra, the whole body as one.

    I'm not sure any of this is helpful at all...

    Gassho,
    Pontus
    In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
    you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
    now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
    the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

  21. #71
    And Taigu's take on the ox herding pictures is fantastic, please listen to them all!

    /Pontus
    In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
    you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
    now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
    the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

  22. #72
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi View Post
    Hi Galen,

    Suzuki's, Jundo's and Taigu's pointing is very similar and pointing to the same moon. If you ask me, Jundo's take might even be closer to Suzuki than even Nishijima or Sawaki in this regard (but I could be wrong of course). I see no real difference in perspective. Do you think of something in particular?

    Posture is a personal thing. I prefer the lotus position for different reasons, but there are several classic positions to choose from, so if you can't sit lotus, no big deal. When I started sitting, knowing that I was sitting in the exact same position as Gautama and all the ancestors gave me the reassurance I needed, a kinship or connection, helped me find the Buddha mind. It's also a very practical position in that it's very stable. I find it easier to trust my body and let go in this position than in any other. And for me, it's neither too comfortable, nor too painful.

    Then there is the symbolism, or the tantric dimension of posture, that is different to every practitioner I suppose. I like Suzuki's take regarding the legs. You can also find meaning in the upright spine, the position of the arms, the shape of the mudra, the whole body as one.

    I'm not sure any of this is helpful at all...

    Gassho,
    Pontus

    Thank you, Pontus.
    Nothing Special

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    By the way Willow, galen ...If I may, these clumsy words opening the ten oxherding pictures talks... Or what to do with a question...



    take care and be well

    gassho


    Taigu
    Thank you for this Taigu, I really enjoyed your example with the bell ... when the bell is full, dead sound ... but when it is empty, the sound resonates. Beautiful!

    Gassho
    Michael
    真 眼

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  24. #74
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    galen, this is not a video game or a projection story.
    It is your life -death. Beyond, much beyond what you make of it.

    take care


    gassho

    Taigu


    Taigu,

    Your perspective of `my perspective on projection, is just that. We both have a right to that. I did not mean it like you say here as seeing life as some movie, that is your take, and that is quite ok, I get that. I had posted in the past something like this... when we are in a relationship with other, verbal or otherwise, we are getting back, good or bad as such, what we project on them. If they seem to have a negative attitude, it can contain not only a lesson for our self to own about our self, but we are projecting our attitude on them and they back to us. If we approach with hostility, we are going to probably meet frowned eyes and some distress. If we meet another with a good attitude and openly, we can quite possibly get a warm feeling and understanding from them, even if they are having a bad day, we may change their perspective in a `moments time’ if our projection has a more loving take. Others feedback is more about us then about them. You did not contest that at the time, Taigu... friend, and expressed something close to that using the word projection in a later post yourself. But this is not an argument here, its just me stating my feelings and maybe getting it off my chest. I did chuckle when you bursted forth the ol’ “eloquent bla bla bla” and thought to myself, now that is a hell of a projection right there. While I am getting to know you as a person first, a teacher second, and have joy in that, sometimes you are also peddling a lot of Zen “eloquent bla bla bla”... ie, so nice projection there. When we find ourselves whining and feeling victimized by other, we need to grab a mirror and drop the drama.

    I have spent the last 25 years seeking a way to heal my psyche and figure myself out after a very traumatic divorce, and spent a lot of time in depth psychology readings, along with psychotherapists teachings (Carl Jung), and what could be called a metaphysical perspective. Oh I know all the talking heads here are already up in arms... that is not the Zen, the Soto Dogen way, fine. The reason being I am going on here, is because a few things I have said or stated have been thrown back to me as ‘thats just metaphysics’, please! Or here in this thread concerning the word projection, someone stated something like thats just amateur psychology 101, again fine, that is that persons right, no problem. So I say this from My perspective, and that is all it Is, all humans are amateur psychologists, from your 6 year old working you for a piece of candy, or grandma or your barber. It’s the natural make up of our humaness. From a person who sees things from what could be called a metaphysical stance, a lot of what Dogen says and theorizes about, could be seen in that perspective (as metaphysical {even though he has insinuated otherwise}). Also, it could be said, that Dogen is a tremendous psychologist. In his own Way, he is selling his way to better deal with our often distressed human mind, in the hopes that his teachings (perspective) is healing or putting us in some more blissful state or feeling, if you will.

    In Suzuki’s chap of `Study Yourself', in ZMBM, WHAT THE HELL IS THAT if its not psychology. His opening sentence goes like this... “The purpose of studying Buddhism is not the study of Buddhism, it’s the study of ourselves.”, and it seemingly leaves the door open to psychology or what could be called a metaphysical perspective. In other chapters he even infers using the christian god to make some of his points, also.

    As I get more Dogenized, some of my perspective will change, but these perspectives I have discussed here are a part of who I am, for better or worse, esp since there is no such thing as good or bad.

    Please excuse my normal poor grammar, phasing and spelling, thats also who I am .
    Last edited by galen; 10-05-2012 at 03:45 PM.
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  25. #75
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    By the way Willow, galen ...If I may, these clumsy words opening the ten oxherding pictures talks... Or what to do with a question...



    take care and be well

    gassho


    Taigu

    Thank you Taigu, I thought this was excellent. Or should I perhaps say, it felt good, the embodiment of, this teaching. Your opening was fine, no critique needed, as such .
    Nothing Special

  26. #76
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    By the way (yes, my perogative to jump in ), in Suzuki's "Zen Mind Beginner's Mind" on Posture, I don't see anything he is teaching that is but "not-2" ...

    Now I would like to talk about our zazen posture. When you sit in the full lotus position, your left foot is on your right thigh, and your right foot is on your left thigh. When we cross our legs like this, even though we have a right leg and a left leg, they have become one. The position expresses the oneness of duality: not two, and not one. This is the most important teaching: not two, and not one. Our body and mind are not two and not one. If you think your body and mind are two, that is wrong; if you think that they are one, that is also wrong. Our body and mind are both two and one. We usually think that if something is not one, it is more than one; if it is not singular, it is plural. But in actual experience, our life is not only plural, but also singular. Each one of us is both dependent and independent. After some years we will die. If we just think that it is the end of our life, this will be the wrong understanding. But, on the other hand, if we think that we do not die, this is also wrong. We die, and we do not die. This is the right understanding. Some people may say that our mind or soul exists forever, and it is only our physical body which dies. But this is not exactly right, because both mind and body have their end. But at the same time it is also true that they exist eternally. And even though we say mind and body, they are actually two sides of one coin. This is the right understanding. So when we take this posture it symbolizes this truth.


    By the way ... Jesus and Buddha are "not two".

    Gassho, J


    And J and B also are 'not one'.

    Also, he seems to use the phrase of the coin sides somewhat differently. Thanks, Jundo.
    Nothing Special

  27. #77
    Treeleaf Unsui Myozan Kodo's Avatar
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    So, did anyone get to see the Kennedy Roshi film?
    Gassho
    Myozan
    Myozan Kodo
    Ordained Soto Zen Priest in Training
    Dublin, Ireland

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.
    "Here the way unfolds."

  28. #78
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myozan Kodo View Post
    So, did anyone get to see the Kennedy Roshi film?
    Gassho
    Myozan

    Thank you, Myozan. Can you post the link?
    Nothing Special

  29. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Taigu View Post
    By the way Willow, galen ...If I may, these clumsy words opening the ten oxherding pictures talks... Or what to do with a question...



    take care and be well

    gassho


    Taigu
    Hi Taigu - this was one of the first videos I watched on joining Tree Leaf. It resonated well the first time - perhaps even more so now.

    Gassho

    Willow

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