Tugas Gunadarma Gunadarma Tutorial VB.NET Download OST Anime Soundtrack Anime Opening Anime Ending Anime OST Anime Japan Download Lagu Anime Jepang

Results 1 to 45 of 45

Thread: BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 11

  1. #1

    BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 11

    Case 10 never ends, yet now comes ...

    CASE 11 - Ummon's Two Sicknesses

    I would actually say there are three or four sicknesses, perhaps endless sicknesses upon sicknesses.

    At first (this is Basic Buddhism 101), you are a sickly deluded being like most on this planet, a prisoner of the sense of separate "self" with your "me/mine/my" ignorance, feelings of lack and need, hate and jealousy, and all the rest of the junk in your dusty, overstuffed, cluttered mental trunk.

    Then in the next sickness, you may gain some sense of "Emptiness" whereby all the junk is liberated and dropped away ... but you don't go far enough. You fail to realize how thorough and through-&-through must be the Spring Cleaning and Sweeping Out of "you" until there is no separate "you" and "your junk" left. What's more, even if you make a fairly good cleaning, you still see something ... Buddha (with a big "B", the Dharmakhaya in Buddhist Lingo) ... as a thing apart from you, as another piece of sacred junk hovering about. The cleaning is not anywhere near complete enough if "you" still think there is a big boundless 'Buddha-Trunk' that is standing somewhere out there at a distance, itself another bit of junk in front of "your" eyes.

    But then another sickness ... when some folks (lots found on the Buddhist internet), encountering some dropping away and Oneness, get all caught up in the clean and empty trunk (or, as we have sometimes described elsewhere, the white canvas without the painting, a boundless ocean without the fish, the vast blue sky without the clouds and birds and airplanes). They do not realize ... or do not know how to probe to the depths the fact that ... a trunk needs "stuff" to fill it, the canvas needs a painting, the ocean its fish to bring it to life etc. ... and that all are still Whole, not Separate. To the deluded eye, a trunk is filled with messy separate stuff ... but to a Buddha's eye, a trunk and its pile of all kinds of separate stuff are not separate, and neither are we! The ocean is not separate from the swimming fish, nor the clouds from the planes and birds and clouds, and neither are we! All are Whole, Interpenetrating. True Emptyness and Stillness is both empty of things and full, is both moving and still.

    Thus the ending verse says ...

    Allow the multitudes of myriad shapes (stuff) to be as is –
    Boundlesss, thorough liberation still obstructs the eye (if you are stuck there, or make liberation just another object of distant junk you desire).


    And Ummon hints at one more sickness ... that we need to stay on our toes, not be negligent in Practice or over confident. The reason to "stay on our toes" is that we fall into and out of one or the other sicknesses again ... back and forth ... the Buddha's Whole TrunkJunk, turned back to just being a pile of twisted trash jammed in an old crate. Thus, says the Preface to this Koan, even the bodyless, mouthless man who is never truly sick and never ultimately hungry better take his medicine and eat healthy ... because the disease is chronic and never ends, requiring daily treatment!

    Do I get this across a bit?

    Master Dogen wrote in Genjo Koan ...

    Those who have great realization of delusion are buddhas; those who are greatly deluded about realization are sentient beings. Further, there are those who continue realizing beyond realization, who are in delusion throughout delusion. ...

    When dharma does not fill your whole body and mind, you think it is already sufficient. When dharma fills your body and mind, you understand that something is missing.


    If you think there is a stopping place, you have not yet found the true nature of Rest. True Realization is in this living world of delusion. Yet folks have all kinds of extreme and crazy ideas about "realization" and enlightenment which they think must be sought apart from this world. If you think it is about some cheap feeling of "oneness" and "perfection", you don't really get it and it probably won't last. True Oneness is One even with things seeming to be complete or seeming to be missing, perfect or imperfect ... all of which together is Perfectly Completely Nothing Missing! Nothing ever missing from the Trunk, even when you cannot find the shiny treasure in the chest you are looking for.

    Master Jingqing Daofu said to a student (Blue Cliff Record 46) "The multitude of living beings are topsy-turvey, deluded by self and chasing after things."
    The student said, "Teacher, how about you?"
    Jingqing said, "I am almost not confused by self. "
           The student asked his meaning.
    Jingqing replied, "It is rather easy to be released of the self and outside things, but expressing this in living life is very hard."


    Dropping body and mind, self and other, is a simple child's trick. But then, living as a grown up in this body, in this world of self and other, is still pretty tricky!

    QUESTION:

    In your practice, where do you feel you are in suffering and treating these various diseases?
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-06-2012 at 12:27 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  2. #2
    I've noticed and accepted some diseases. And I've accepted all the unnoticed diseases.
    Have a long way to go with the treatment. The cure or answer will appear when its ready.
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

  3. #3
    The second illness is, in my experience... about checking-back. This persisted for a looong time. It was about a compulsive need to hang my hat on a something or a no-thing, There was no going forward forgetfully.. there was compulsive reflecting. It was that ontology gene doing its thing... a kind of naked fear of groundlessness. It was not helped by consuming too much eternalistic "Zen speak". So it came down to just non-grasping, non-attaining, forgetting.. Only then did the ordinary ground and sane solid earth really manifest... each thing crisply its own,.. trees are green, bricks are red.. with no trace of "oneness". I then became useful...i think, and am becoming more useful. This is all ongoing, of course, and not a slam dunk... practice goes on.

    Gassho, kojip
    Last edited by Daizan; 08-04-2012 at 03:10 PM.
    大山

  4. #4
    I'm not certain, but the first sickness seems to be right for me. I just had a revelation of where I am on this path this morning as I was typing a follow up to Kyrillos' post in the On Rituals topic. In any case, I was building up another great argument in my support that rituals are not part of zen practice. I love arguing, and I felt invigorated as I typed it. I even posted it. THen I had my wife read it; I never have her read anything here. I kind of still keep my practice separate from her, but I was so proud of my 21st century logical mind that I could not contain myself.

    After she read it, she said something to the effect "We all have rituals". I was like No you obviously didn't read my awesome argument. lol

    I took my dogs out, and thought about this a lot. I do need rituals. I accept some and reject others, but I know that this practice and sangha are in my heart so I owe it to myself to investigate this.

    So how this relates to this is that I think part of me is still in a part of the practice where I'm afraid to fully jump into practice because I'm still in need of other's approval. I think part of me finds these rituals weird because I need someone to tell me it's ok. IT pisses me off to even admit this; pisses my ego off. I pride myself in independence, my separateness. This sense of separate self is very strongly ingrained.

    And because I don't fully commit, I get swung back and forth, back and forth. It really gets psychologically exhausting. I think that's why I love Ango and Jukai so much; it's a coming together of our Sangha, and I do need that support. It's also why I took the precepts and sewed the Rakusu; I needed that. Foreign or not that filled me by doing something in practice with all of my fellow Treeleafers that was bigger than myself, not just for myself.

    So I'm still part of the first sickness, so a practicing I must go.

    Gassho,

    Risho
    Last edited by Risho; 08-04-2012 at 06:06 PM.

  5. #5
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mormon Country
    Posts
    352
    Thank you, Jundo.

    It seems I suffer the most when `out amongst the people, when I try to control. It used to be a much bigger issue, but it lingers still. When it seems to come back in my face, so to speak, as an uncomfortable moment, but then on further reflection, I realize that moment of discomfort. Something I wouldn't have a clue on in the past. Just the realization and owning it, are a movement straight forward, step by step. That is the practice, life and relationships.


    _/\_

    galen
    Nothing Special

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Risho View Post
    I'm not certain, but the first sickness seems to be right for me. I just had a revelation of where I am on this path this morning as I was typing a follow up to Kyrillos' post in the On Rituals topic. In any case, I was building up another great argument in my support that rituals are not part of zen practice. I love arguing, and I felt invigorated as I typed it. I even posted it. THen I had my wife read it; I never have her read anything here. I kind of still keep my practice separate from her, but I was so proud of my 21st century logical mind that I could not contain myself.

    After she read it, she said something to the effect "We all have rituals". I was like No you obviously didn't read my awesome argument. lol

    I took my dogs out, and thought about this a lot. I do need rituals. I accept some and reject others, but I know that this practice and sangha are in my heart so I owe it to myself to investigate this.

    So how this relates to this is that I think part of me is still in a part of the practice where I'm afraid to fully jump into practice because I'm still in need of other's approval. I think part of me finds these rituals weird because I need someone to tell me it's ok. IT pisses me off to even admit this; pisses my ego off. I pride myself in independence, my separateness. This sense of separate self is very strongly ingrained.

    And because I don't fully commit, I get swung back and forth, back and forth. It really gets psychologically exhausting. I think that's why I love Ango and Jukai so much; it's a coming together of our Sangha, and I do need that support. It's also why I took the precepts and sewed the Rakusu; I needed that. Foreign or not that filled me by doing something in practice with all of my fellow Treeleafers that was bigger than myself, not just for myself.

    So I'm still part of the first sickness, so a practicing I must go.

    Gassho,

    Risho
    Oh boy.., You let your wife read your pearl of wisdom?!.... Never do that. They are way more mature, and wise, and can deflate our wise-boy stuff with a sideways look...
    大山

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojip View Post
    Oh boy.., You let your wife read your pearl of wisdom?!.... Never do that. They are way more mature, and wise, and can deflate our wise-boy stuff with a sideways look...
    That's exactly what Mina just did when I let her read my little post here!
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  8. #8
    Senior Member Ekai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Southeastern Wisconsin
    Posts
    570
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojip View Post
    Oh boy.., You let your wife read your pearl of wisdom?!.... Never do that. They are way more mature, and wise, and can deflate our wise-boy stuff with a sideways look...
    Yes, you are a very wise man for realizing that us women are smarter and more mature with the ability to squash the male ego like a bug with that piercing "look" in our eye. LOL!

    Gassho,
    Ekai

  9. #9
    Senior Member Shujin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Northeast Georgia
    Posts
    587
    I have to admit that I don't really know where I am in the greater sense of suffering. I know what it looks like - time alone spent judging, evaluating, planning for a million possibilities. By the same token, I know what my treatment is as well - time with family, and at work dealing with people. My ego can't be in the front seat in these moments. The light penetrates, however incomplete.

    Thank you, Jundo & all folks posting. I've been been a poor student of late. It would be better to take the medicine and fight it less, but that's the nature of my sickness. Shishin puts it best: Don't rest anywhere; just keep letting it all go.

    Gassho,
    Shujin

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    If you think there is a stopping place, you have not yet found the true nature of Rest. True Realization is in this living world of delusion.
    For some reason this little statement hit me! Thank you Jundo.

    For me, I find that it is when you see others suffering and you feel in your heart the advice or help you want to give will help, yet they are not willing to accept or try. During those times I try not to run away (emotionally) from those situation, but to recognize that it is just my ego. Silly ego!

    Gassho
    Michael
    倫道 真現

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  11. #11
    that's true... Sometimes I swear my wife is the 7th patriarch. hahahahah

  12. #12
    Appreciatory verse - 'To sweep out this garden, who has this strength?'

    That's pretty much where I am - 'letting it all go' - does not come easily - press hard enough on a sweeping brush and it doesn't
    sweep at all.

    (Not sure which sickness this is - probably all of them!)

    Gassho

    Willow

  13. #13
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mormon Country
    Posts
    352
    Jundo,

    Well done on the edit !

    The references in the last openings of the koans had me wondering, who is being seen through and through.

    It seems, as you know, we all have our way of processing our lessons on that ever moving train of the Way, and karma seems to teach (or doesn't), thats the perfection in the nonperfection of it All. It had me wondering, when in #26, Wick asserts 'we need to cultivate nonjudgmental awareness' and pointing to 'zazen being the perfect oportunity to practice nonjudgmental awareness'.

    With that being said, through that seemingly projected judgment from the high seat, lessons were learned on all levels here, and thank you for that.


    _/\_

    galen
    Last edited by galen; 08-06-2012 at 11:33 PM.
    Nothing Special

  14. #14
    Treeleaf Unsui rculver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati Ohio Area (Northern Kentucky)
    Posts
    1,963
    The more I do this, the less I know. Which sickness is mine? All of them. I just like to sit. I'm beginning to wonder if it's just for the peace and quiet. And yet...

    Ron


    Shugen
    As a priest in training, please take everything I say with a pinch of salt

    Meido Shugen
    明道 修眼

  15. #15
    Jundo, can you explain a bit more what you mean by a "cheap feeling of oneness and perfection?"
    Gassho, Kaishin
    Gassho,
    Kaishin

  16. #16
    Sick with myself, sick with wanting, sick with boredom, sick with work, sick on a run in the evening, with thoughts, with feelings, with another's thoughts and feelings, sick with ideas, with words, sick sitting zazen, sick in that deep-humming zazen, sick sitting up after zazen, walking the house and trying to hold the quiet, sick of not finding it, not finding it, not finding, trying to get to that stopping point, not finding it, sick with zen, sick without it, sick with sweeping, sick with quiet, sick in stillness, still in sickness, quiet within sickness, resting in sickness, sick of letting myself be which is not letting myself be, letting myself be sick, that most difficult trick, not even a trick.

  17. #17
    Friend of Treeleaf Daido's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Corona, Ca
    Posts
    682
    In your practice, where do you feel you are in suffering and treating these various diseases?

    I dont feel like I am anywhere as at different times I feel like I am suffering from and treating these diseases. For me it varies from moment to moment and changes so often it does not feel like a fixed position. Suffer then treat. Suffer then treat over and over again.

    Gassho,

    Daido
    Jiken Daido - Unsui at Treeleaf's Brother Sangha, the Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage.

    Do not just accept what I say. Decide for yourself if it rings true for you

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaishin View Post
    Jundo, can you explain a bit more what you mean by a "cheap feeling of oneness and perfection?"
    Gassho, Kaishin
    Hi Kaishin,

    I am referring to a kind of passing "peak experience" that can be encountered from time to time by meditators and anyone at certain moments in life. The best example might be when the dentist gives you the laughing gas and suddenly "all is right with the world". One is high, feeling incredible bliss, that all one's problems have vanished, that one does not have fear, all is happy la la land with a deep love for life and the world. It's lovely ... but in the end as temporary and thin as the gas. Falling in love or winning the lottery might produce a similar high for awhile, as might a couple of bottles of beer. Some forms of meditation can succeed in giving one such bliss states, although drugs are usually faster. Some folks want to feel like that all the time, and run after that, hunger for the high, and think it the point of Buddhist Practice. I like those times too. Yet, not only do they not last but, even if they did, I believe such bliss less profound and less powerful than the Blissful Peace of Zazen Samadhi.

    That is because our Happiness and Peace and Bliss goes right to the heart of the human condition, and embraces life fully without trying to run from it to "la la land". It is a Happiness and Peace so all encompassing that it includes being Happy and at Peace with those parts of life that are happy and those that are sad, rainy days and sunny, all disturbance, moments of bliss and bummers. I would say that it goes to the root of human Dukkha (Suffering) in a more thorough way that the "laughing gas" cannot. Zazen is the medicine that really cures the disease ... not just temporarily masking the symptoms.

    Otherwise, just go get some tanks of laughing gas and strap them on if that's what you want.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-08-2012 at 02:44 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  19. #19
    Senior Member Heisoku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Plymouth, Devon, UK
    Posts
    1,257
    In your practice, where do you feel you are in suffering and treating these various diseases?
    I don't know which sickness I suffer from but I just try and realise my delusions from moment to moment. Conversely I also try not to let any (if any?) realisations stick out. Each moment is presence, not bound by 'before' or 'next', so too is awareness, just now, just now.... even when conforming to protocols (whether those insisted on or those in ritual) at work or elsewhere. Being aware of any resistance or attraction, then working on letting them go, again and again.
    I like the quote in Taigen's book from Suzuki Roshi where we are described as constantly being unbalanced and in zazen we regain our posture and composure...only to be unbalanced in the world again. Maintaining to keep my balance from moment to moment, in constant awareness of balance and inbalance, this is my treatment and practice.
    Heisoku
    平 息

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi Kaishin,

    I am referring to a kind of passing "peak experience" that can be encountered from time to time by meditators and anyone at certain moments in life. The best example might be when the dentist gives you the laughing gas and suddenly "all is right with the world". One is high, feeling incredible bliss, that all one's problems have vanished, that one does not have fear, all is happy la la land with a deep love for life and the world. It's lovely ... but in the end as temporary and thin as the gas. Falling in love or winning the lottery might produce a similar high for awhile, as might a couple of bottles of beer. Some forms of meditation can succeed in giving one such bliss states, although drugs are usually faster. Some folks want to feel like that all the time, and run after that, hunger for the high, and think it the point of Buddhist Practice. I like those times too. Yet, not only do they not last but, even if they did, I believe such bliss less profound and less powerful than the Blissful Peace of Zazen Samadhi.

    That is because our Happiness and Peace and Bliss goes right to the heart of the human condition, and embraces life fully without trying to run from it to "la la land". It is a Happiness and Peace so all encompassing that it includes being Happy and at Peace with those parts of life that are happy and those that are sad, rainy days and sunny, all disturbance, moments of bliss and bummers. I would say that it goes to the root of human Dukkha (Suffering) in a more thorough way that the "laughing gas" cannot. Zazen is the medicine that really cures the disease ... not just temporarily masking the symptoms.

    Otherwise, just go get some tanks of laughing gas and strap them on if that's what you want.

    Gassho, J
    Ah, thank you for the clarification!
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-08-2012 at 02:44 AM.
    Gassho,
    Kaishin

  21. #21
    I have to say I'm struggling with this one. Lots of our famous double talk, difficult to wrap my mind around. Maybe that's my sickness.
    _/\_
    Jigetsu

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Jigetsu View Post
    I have to say I'm struggling with this one. Lots of our famous double talk, difficult to wrap my mind around. Maybe that's my sickness.
    We have a life time(s) to wrestle with the Cases ... to dance with the Cases ... and they are not homework assignments due in by Friday or you get an "F". So, fear not.

    Everybody passes, even without passing through.

    Here is something to lighten things up ... Zen and the Zen of Zen ... (some mildly adult content )

    You may wish to rent a "surrogate sitter".

    Last edited by Jundo; 08-10-2012 at 10:26 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  23. #23
    Senior Member Ekai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Southeastern Wisconsin
    Posts
    570
    One of the many things I always need to work on is my self-doubt, second guessing and self-judgement. It's a never-ending process of recognizing and letting go while learning to be more patient with myself. I far more critical of myself than I am to others.

    Gassho,
    Ekai

  24. #24
    I know I'm sick. It's a good start.
    Gassho,
    Kaishin

  25. #25
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mormon Country
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    We have a life time(s) to wrestle with the Cases ... to dance with the Cases ... and they are not homework assignments due in by Friday or you get an "F". So, fear not.

    Everybody passes, even without passing through.

    Here is something to lighten things up ... Zen and the Zen of Zen ... (some mildly adult content )

    You may wish to rent a "surrogate sitter".


    That was excellent, thank you, Jundo!

    _/\_

    _/\_
    Nothing Special

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Jigetsu View Post
    I have to say I'm struggling with this one. Lots of our famous double talk, difficult to wrap my mind around. Maybe that's my sickness.
    I think you're right on, actually, and that one of the things we constantly try to do with ourselves, like is Koan, is to figure ourselves out. To get ourselves straight and clean and nicely and thoroughly let-go. And we try to wrap our mind around this, going, "Hey, am I straightened out now? Did this sitting do it? Yep, I'm pretty sure I let go completely this time." And so, our practice is just like this Koan, with us going, "Yes, Now I'm a good almost perfect Buddhist, I think, I'm pretty sure, here, let me check." But that's a sickness. Where, what, how to check? Nothing to see there. So the first sickness is like trying to get a view of the self and make sure we've got it. The second sickness is more about mistaking the Dharma for the self, going, "Yes, got it, found it." Which as Taigu wonderfully pointed out in one video is exactly when we don't have it, when we're sick. But I think there's another one, another sickness, or at least there is for me. when we are lost in thoughts, lost a bit in Samsara, we like to go, "Oh crap, now I'm not being a good Zen person and I need to get figured out again, get back to my Zen self, get in line with the Dharma again, okay, let me sit and let some light penetrate" - and that's another sickness. We're kind of like the guy sitting on the bed in video Jundo posted - our little thoughts arguing and judging and all the while our little ego either confused or pleased or sick or unable to see the little game it's playing. Be sick and in that being sick not so sick. Maybe, who knows.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by alan.r View Post
    I think you're right on, actually, and that one of the things we constantly try to do with ourselves, like is Koan, is to figure ourselves out. To get ourselves straight and clean and nicely and thoroughly let-go. And we try to wrap our mind around this, going, "Hey, am I straightened out now? Did this sitting do it? Yep, I'm pretty sure I let go completely this time." And so, our practice is just like this Koan, with us going, "Yes, Now I'm a good almost perfect Buddhist, I think, I'm pretty sure, here, let me check." But that's a sickness. Where, what, how to check? Nothing to see there. So the first sickness is like trying to get a view of the self and make sure we've got it. The second sickness is more about mistaking the Dharma for the self, going, "Yes, got it, found it." Which as Taigu wonderfully pointed out in one video is exactly when we don't have it, when we're sick. But I think there's another one, another sickness, or at least there is for me. when we are lost in thoughts, lost a bit in Samsara, we like to go, "Oh crap, now I'm not being a good Zen person and I need to get figured out again, get back to my Zen self, get in line with the Dharma again, okay, let me sit and let some light penetrate" - and that's another sickness. We're kind of like the guy sitting on the bed in video Jundo posted - our little thoughts arguing and judging and all the while our little ego either confused or pleased or sick or unable to see the little game it's playing. Be sick and in that being sick not so sick. Maybe, who knows.
    Thank you. Gassho. Let's all work our way through these words a few times, and a few times again.

    Now, Al, don't fall into the sickness of letting a little praise go to your head!


    J
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-11-2012 at 03:18 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  28. #28
    Member Thane's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Newtonhill, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
    Posts
    48
    Hi folks

    Its been a busy week and i haven't been able to read this as much as i would have liked but as Jundo says it is not homework. This really spoke to me. I certainly have caught some of the sickness described. Certainly in the past and who knows maybe to a lesser degree today i have fallen into thinking yes i've found it, this is it. I distinctly remember attending a week long Jukai retreat in 2003 and thinking i'd cracked the practice. Of course i couldn't sustain the early starts and lots of sitting in a busy family and working life. I was clinging to the practice, like i once clung to other things. Ummon seems to be telling me to be wary of this and head for the middle road.

    Gassho

    Thane

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post

    Now, Al, don't fall into the sickness of letting a little praise go to your head!


    J
    Are you subtly suggesting that I let my wife read that little paragraph and then give me the 'oh-brother-sideways-look.' I don't want to, I don't want to!

    Thank you and Gassho,
    alan

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    In your practice, where do you feel you are in suffering and treating these various diseases?
    There is no place or moment where I not suffer from those and there is no place or moment where I not treat them. If that sounds clever, I once again made it into the trap, if not, phew ... Anyway, this koan reminds me that whenever I think I got something, I'm in the trap agin. This is funny, because naturally there seems to be a willing to "get it", to put it in a phrase or magic formula. Letting go sounds like a good cure, being curious, being open.
    _()_
    Myoku

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by alan.r View Post
    I think you're right on, actually, and that one of the things we constantly try to do with ourselves, like is Koan, is to figure ourselves out. To get ourselves straight and clean and nicely and thoroughly let-go. And we try to wrap our mind around this, going, "Hey, am I straightened out now? Did this sitting do it? Yep, I'm pretty sure I let go completely this time." And so, our practice is just like this Koan, with us going, "Yes, Now I'm a good almost perfect Buddhist, I think, I'm pretty sure, here, let me check." But that's a sickness. Where, what, how to check? Nothing to see there. So the first sickness is like trying to get a view of the self and make sure we've got it. The second sickness is more about mistaking the Dharma for the self, going, "Yes, got it, found it." Which as Taigu wonderfully pointed out in one video is exactly when we don't have it, when we're sick. But I think there's another one, another sickness, or at least there is for me. when we are lost in thoughts, lost a bit in Samsara, we like to go, "Oh crap, now I'm not being a good Zen person and I need to get figured out again, get back to my Zen self, get in line with the Dharma again, okay, let me sit and let some light penetrate" - and that's another sickness. We're kind of like the guy sitting on the bed in video Jundo posted - our little thoughts arguing and judging and all the while our little ego either confused or pleased or sick or unable to see the little game it's playing. Be sick and in that being sick not so sick. Maybe, who knows.
    This was perfect Alan. I'm very grateful for the response, and it's "not just you". I see that third sickness all the time. Anytime I do something and I'm afraid I violated a precept, anytime I don't sit, or when I don't sit long enough, I find myself thinking I have to start back from zero.

    Which of course, we're always at anyway, I just make it something it's not.
    _/\_
    Jigetsu

  32. #32
    Well I have given this time to steep and I must say I can't say which sickness I'm not at various times. It all depends and included in that sickness in the belief that I am okay. I often do not check to see if I am being that good zen buddhist guy, other times I "know" (sometime that's delusion, sometimes truth).
    I find more and more though I see my sickness reflected back to me in the things I run into that get my goat or seem so obvious in others - woot there I go again. This is not something to beat out of me or replace with pristine goodness. Just more sweeping, noticing the dust bunnies and picking them up when the roll by (common in my house )

    Gassho
    Shohei

  33. #33
    Treeleaf Unsui Shokai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sarnia, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    2,116
    Blog Entries
    119
    Thank you all for your contributions to this thread. I've been "on the road" for over a week Thinking that you were all my surrogates. So, I brought back some Jim Beam just in case I run out of medicine:IMG_4605.jpg Not sure how this fellow fits into the story but, please note; no socks and sandals! As for the mariner; met him in a town called Newburyport.

    btw, if you're ever there don't bother going to Plum Island.
    Last edited by Shokai; 08-13-2012 at 01:31 PM.
    仁道 生開 - Jindo Shokai "Open to life in a benevolent way"
    Just another itinerant monk going nowhere; try somewhere else to listen to someone who really knows.

  34. #34
    Senior Member Daisho's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Palm Springs, CA
    Posts
    217
    Here's the part I like:

    "Thus, says the Preface to this Koan, even the bodyless, mouthless man who is never truly sick and never ultimately hungry better take his medicine and eat healthy ... because the disease is chronic and never ends, requiring daily treatment! "

    Thinking about my chronic diseases and all the suffering can be pretty debilitating BUT daily treatment is a way to keep from drowning in the pit of depression! Being aware of how my ego causes me to suffer/be diseased is only half the picture. Strengthening practice, consistently sitting zazen is a way out of suffering/disease isn't it? I've got to find a little hope or I'll just slip into the disease of denial, and change my name to Pollyanna!!!
    Gassho,

    Daisho


    (Jack K.)

  35. #35
    Senior Member AlanLa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    East Texas
    Posts
    1,263
    I am one sick surfer dude, and I am ok/not ok with that. To further the disease analogy, it's like something without a cure but it is manageable with medication, like diabetes. I can live a full life, but I need to be careful in what I do and diligent in taking my insulin/zazen. I strive to be as healthy as possible, but even when I achieve what seems like a healthy balance, I am not free of my sickness. When I do feel free of it is when I screw up or things get screwed up, and then I have to go back to the basics of awareness and practice as forms of disease/life management.

    Reading that koan was an immediate flashback to the old story of cleaning dust off the mirror and how there is no dust or mirror. Same thing, pretty much.

    Brilliant video, both funny and thought provoking.
    AL (Jigen) in:
    Faith/Trust
    Courage/Love
    Awareness/Action!

  36. #36
    In your practice, where do you feel you are in suffering and treating these various diseases?

    In some ways I think of the sicknesses brought up in by Ummon as being cyclical rather than a hierarchy. The reading seemed to imply, to me anyway, that you pass from the sickness of a "taste of emptyness" to "a white canvas without the painting" and finally one goes beyond both. Nevertheless, I could see repeating these mistakes over and over.....they just seem to be so subtle.....and we seem to be so forgetful.

    Gassho,
    Jisen/BrianW

  37. #37
    Senior Member galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mormon Country
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    In your practice, where do you feel you are in suffering and treating these various diseases?

    In some ways I think of the sicknesses brought up in by Ummon as being cyclical rather than a hierarchy. The reading seemed to imply, to me anyway, that you pass from the sickness of a "taste of emptyness" to "a white canvas without the painting" and finally one goes beyond both. Nevertheless, I could see repeating these mistakes over and over.....they just seem to be so subtle.....and we seem to be so forgetful.

    Gassho,
    Jisen/BrianW
    Thank you Brian and Jisen,

    Thank you for sharing Ummon insight on this.

    It seems the ego can be quite subtle, causing the repeat of mistakes over and over, and in one sense forgetful, but then again not so subtle, and remembers every damn thing . And as you seem to point out, at one point moving beyond (both) this cyclical duality of the egos seemingly never ending game. It seems your point is good reasoning for Zen and zazen, knocking this damn ego off its hierarchal position.


    _/\_

    galen
    Last edited by galen; 08-19-2012 at 03:49 PM.
    Nothing Special

  38. #38
    Galen,

    Good point of "being forgetful, yet remembering every damn thing"! Yes zazen and Zen study both needed!

    Gassho,
    Jisen/BrianW

  39. #39
    Treeleaf Unsui/Engineer Kyonin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Mexico
    Posts
    3,110
    In your practice, where do you feel you are in suffering and treating these various diseases?

    All I know is the more I live and practice, the more I realize there's still a long way to go. I am diluted at so many levels, but at the same time I can see some of life with a clear vision I had never experienced.

    This koan reminds me of my first boss, when I was a teenager working at Burger King. Whenever we were low on costumers, the boss said: "You have nothing to do? Clean over the clean".

    So even if the kitchen was sparkly clean, we had to clean again. And then I realized that there was always a place I had missed on the first run. Maybe it was a small corner underneath a container, maybe it was a tiny sesame seed forgotten on the work table. There was always something new to clean.

    This experience taught me to never think I'm done.

    In my practice, I guess I'll die before I'm done learning.

    But that's a great thing. Always moving, always learning.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Please remember I am only a priest in training. I could be wrong in everything I say. Slap me if needed.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Mr. Spock

  40. #40
    Good point Kyonin, thank you.
    Gassho,
    Andy

  41. #41
    Senior Member Koshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mexico City
    Posts
    1,067
    Quote Originally Posted by andyZ View Post
    Good point Kyonin, thank you.
    Ditto

    Still sick,always sick... Too much to learn, too much to un-learn. I always relied too much on my intellectual side, I now know that I am sick and deluded, but I fail to clearly distinguish the symptoms of my illness. Back to the zafu :P

    Gassho
    ______________________________
    Kōshin / Leo



    P.S. Yup, I know, my English sucks

  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyonin View Post
    In your practice, where do you feel you are in suffering and treating these various diseases?

    All I know is the more I live and practice, the more I realize there's still a long way to go. I am diluted at so many levels, but at the same time I can see some of life with a clear vision I had never experienced.

    This koan reminds me of my first boss, when I was a teenager working at Burger King. Whenever we were low on costumers, the boss said: "You have nothing to do? Clean over the clean".

    So even if the kitchen was sparkly clean, we had to clean again. And then I realized that there was always a place I had missed on the first run. Maybe it was a small corner underneath a container, maybe it was a tiny sesame seed forgotten on the work table. There was always something new to clean.

    This experience taught me to never think I'm done.

    In my practice, I guess I'll die before I'm done learning.

    But that's a great thing. Always moving, always learning.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Thank you Kyonin.

    Something Pristine and Clear from the First in Buddha's Kitchen, never in need of cleaning, nothing to improve, beyond and holding all appearances of spic and span or of soiled and stained as judged by small human vision.

    Yet, we must clean clean clean constantly, for the kitchen is ever dirty anew, a householder's work is never done, and we best keep things tidy or we'll all get poisoned.

    All True At Once, As One. Nothing describes Buddhist Practice better.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-25-2012 at 02:20 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  43. #43
    I am writing while on the ferry back to Honshu from Hokkaido, precisely 20km offshore from the Fukushima Nuclear Reactors visible quite clearly on the beach from here. Teacher Joan Sutherland had a comment in a recent issue of Buddhadharma on environmental and political action and fixing the world, which touches on all this. She said ...

    Neither can exist in isolation, and if one part of our practice is about a deepening experience of spaciousness, the other part is about embodying that in the world. It’s the old form and emptiness thing, and if you fall too far on one side or the other, something is missing.

    You have to do the difficult work of getting tossed back and forth between the quiet, spacious world and the active, lively world until it doesn’t feel like you’re being tossed anymore, until you find something underneath that contains both the stillness and the activity, no matter what the circumstance. The more we rest in that and emerge from that in our activities, the less there is a sense of losing something because we’re including the other and the more there is a sense that practice is one whole thing we can gladly work with. ...


    http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-a...illful-me.html

    We must go deeply deeply deeply into the boundless stillness and silence, and then deeply deeply deeply into the spacious active world bringing all to life ... for All is One.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-25-2012 at 04:32 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    #SAT TODAY!

  44. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    QUESTION:

    In your practice, where do you feel you are in suffering and treating these various diseases?
    Hi.

    In my everyday practice, everything goes up and down, as do all things in life, and it's all good practice, and that is fine.
    Speaking about the various diseases, they come and go, and sometimes mutate, but they are always present, always there with me, whether i want it or not, or acknowledge them or not.
    And since they are always with me, i am always with them.
    Sometimes in different ways, sometimes, healing, sometimes suffering, sometimes treating, but always here.

    Other than that i have nothing to add which has not already been said.

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen
    Treeleaf Unsui
    Blog: http://fugenblog.blogspot.com/

  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    I am writing while on the ferry back to Honshu from Hokkaido, precisely 20km offshore from the Fukushima Nuclear Reactors visible quite clearly on the beach from here. Teacher Joan Sutherland had a comment in a recent issue of Buddhadharma on environmental and political action and fixing the world, which touches on all this. She said ...

    Neither can exist in isolation, and if one part of our practice is about a deepening experience of spaciousness, the other part is about embodying that in the world. It’s the old form and emptiness thing, and if you fall too far on one side or the other, something is missing.

    You have to do the difficult work of getting tossed back and forth between the quiet, spacious world and the active, lively world until it doesn’t feel like you’re being tossed anymore, until you find something underneath that contains both the stillness and the activity, no matter what the circumstance. The more we rest in that and emerge from that in our activities, the less there is a sense of losing something because we’re including the other and the more there is a sense that practice is one whole thing we can gladly work with. ...


    http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-a...illful-me.html

    We must go deeply deeply deeply into the boundless stillness and silence, and then deeply deeply deeply into the spacious active world bringing all to life ... for All is One.

    Gassho, J
    Thank you! This was a very timely post. I can't explain it, but for some reason I was just thinking about the idea of No-Self. I don't get why this is such a big deal. Of course we are ever changing and interdependent. Our sense of self is rooted in our concept of who we are, which is probably different than who we really are, but I don't know if we can ever know because we are what we think in a way... But this touches on this topic for me... it's not just the intellectualization of this concept... I get the idea, but it's the true realization of no-self which is the kicker. I guess that would be when you aren't tossed back and forth any longer. you aren't tossed back and forth because there isn't anything separate from everything else to be tossed back and forth. There are no short cuts to this. I just sit daily and let what unfold, unfold, and let the practice bloom through me naturally.

    In other words, you can talk about reading and you can read... You cannot rush the process, and no amount of intellectualization will bring one to realization. Although I understand it intellectually, I don't have this realization of no-self yet (or maybe I do and don't know. lol), honestly. I'm practicing, practicing. It will happen naturally or it won't but I just have to keep practicing. Thank you again for posting this. Sometimes I get worried that I don't get this, or I don't understand these topics deeply enough, but I forget to just drop all of that and do the practice.

    Gassho for this,

    Risho
    Last edited by Risho; 08-29-2012 at 07:09 PM.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •