Jundo's latest vid

Hi all,

Just a kind of thing I am picking up...The latest vid from Jundo about the need to give is, in my eyes, spot on. He says "perhaps", Jundo is very kind and mild.
Let me be a bit more straight forward and direct than usual: in this community, a lot of people love receiving support, advice, guidance, teachings, and it's all free! It is all free because we want it to be free and we get our income another way.

Very few comments on this vid. In fact we like to take and not to give, don't we all?

Well guys, blablabla and koans and this and that are about the wondrous and humble Boddhistava activity. I don't give a s... about your mastering of the subtle Buddhist philosophy, the fact that you can talk the talk... I really mind about how it translates in your life, your hands and the way you use what is in your pocket. We don't want it in our pockets, it is not for Jundo or Taigu: the world needs your action, your deeds.

I wrote this on another thread:

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Hi all,

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Wading through threads are hard to follow. For practical purposes, maybe a new thread for rakusu n00bies where we can go and ask a question(s) or a simple pdf/txt file with a beginner's how-to for the rakusu.

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or

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...maybe we can have a live web feed where folks can follow a rakusu sewing class...step by step?

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Thank you for your interesting suggestions. I kind of understand the difficulties of starting sewing: I was not born with a needle in my hands...
It is part of the process to meet resistance, not the lack of help or inadequate wording or instructions of teachers, but our OWN resistance which is a byproduct of our beliefs. No live classes, or ready-made thread will do. Maybe, I should also buy a plane ticket and come to you to show you how to do it :wink: ???

These days, people get it too easy. In a not so distant past, wading through mountains, walking weeks and months, begging food and bowing in the mud had to be done and experienced to sew a single kesa and study with a teacher.

We are obviously too addicted to a mouse click.

That's all I have to say. It is a very good test at the very gate of our true self.


So...just get on with it

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Please, time to do some work in the community and help in many ways, including with your green energy ( money)

gassho


Taigu

Gassho

Shohei

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Originally Posted by Taigu

Let me be a bit more straight forward and direct than usual:

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Much appreciated.

Gassho,
Dave

Thank you for leading us the in the path of humility!

Deep bows,
Luis-Jinyu
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2190/...b8c0fee393.jpg

Hi.

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Please, time to do some work in the community and help in many ways, including with your green energy ( money)

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Yes, very true.
Always time.
Always here.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

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Originally Posted by Taigu

I don't give a s... about your mastering of the subtle Buddhist philosophy, the fact that you can talk the talk... I really mind about how it translates in your life, your hands and the way you use what is in your pocket.

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Thanks for this "finger pointing" at my face! I needed the nudge.

gassho

I for one appreciate your straight-forwardness! Thank you.

Merci Taigu,

gassho,

Sylvie

Since my post in another thread was quoted on this OP and not mentioned by name, here is my response:

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Is not being addictive or not addictive.
Or walking through mud or not through mud.
I don't have any resistance to do it.
I'll send y'all a napkin if I have to.
But. You are not asking for a napkin and y'all have a set of videos on how to do a rakusu which means you want to do a rakusu.

All I'm asking is for help and giving you a suggestion.

You can say, Yes. You can say, No. You can say, Maybe.

You see too much into my humble words.

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Maybe, I should also buy a plane ticket and come to you to show you how to do it ???

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Sure. Why not? We are numberless, right? :twisted:

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Thank you Sensei...I forget far too easily. :oops:

Gassho,
Dosho

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Originally Posted by Taigu

Well guys, blablabla and koans and this and that are about the wondrous and humble Boddhistava activity. I don't give a s... about your mastering of the subtle Buddhist philosophy, the fact that you can talk the talk... I really mind about how it translates in your life, your hands and the way you use what is in your pocket.

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Taigu,

I am sure I am the only one who see it this way, but I think your words in your post are far from humble, and rather a bit unnecessary aggressive. I get the point you are making though, and I have no problem with that - it's a valid point.

I am sorry if this is an overreaction. I am sorry if I have caused any offense. Feel free to disregard this post if you want.

Respectfully,

Philip

Hi Philip, indeed. No offence taken. I have no problem seeing how agressive and arrogant I can sometimes be. Thank you for the reminder. And also, thank you for understanding how valid my point is.
If you read my post again, the mild swearing I use (hi Stephanie :wink: :lol: ) shows how much I care about you guys as it is my responsability to make sure you are walking the walk and not just eating your way through articles, books and sewing ideas in mid air.

Hi Chicanobudista, I should have mentioned your name. Sorry. In your answer,don't you see resistance? And by the way, who wants to sew a rakusu? Jukai means putting all your energy into this. You are the one willing to take the precepts, aren't you? Meeting one's resistance and facing one's own arrogance, habit and thinking patterns[/b] is part an parcel of the experience of sewing. I don't know about Jundo, but I don't want to make things too easy. You are not the only one facing this kind of issue. Almost everybody does. And sorry about this, I won't be your guy teaching you live on skype how to sew...And let me add this, these videos are well made after all , once you really put your energy into it, listen to what is said, ask a few tips along to one of us, do your homework and overcome your natural resistance to the process, you will end up with a rakusu on your lap like everybody else who went through this journey eventualy did.

gassho


Taigu

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Originally Posted by Taigu

Hi Chicanobudista, I should have mentioned your name. Sorry. In your answer,don't you see resistance? And by the way, who wants to sew a rakusu? Jukai means putting all your energy into this. You are the one willing to take the precepts, aren't you? Meeting one's resistance and facing one's own arrogance, habit and thinking patterns[/b] is part an parcel of the experience of sewing. I don't know about Jundo, but I don't want to make things too easy. You are not the only one facing this kind of issue. Almost everybody does. And sorry about this, I won't be your guy teaching you live on skype how to sew...And let me add this, these videos are well made after all , once you really put your energy into it, listen to what is said, ask a few tips along to one of us, do your homework and overcome your natural resistance to the process, you will end up with a rakusu on your lap like everybody else who went through this journey eventualy did.

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Oh. Of course resistance is there as long as there something new or "hard" to do. I work with farmworker youth who have dropped out of high school. They come to our program for three months for training on General Educational Development diploma, GED. GED is a battery of five tests that if passed will give them an equivalent of a High School diploma. On the first day, most if not all come with resistance. "Why am I here?" "This is too hard!" "Math!? Agh!" They all come like this day after day. But. They also get resistance from teachers. "Oh. They want it easy." "Bah. They don't want to learn." "They are too lazy!". BUT. We come together. Day in. Day out. Day in. Day out. Sometimes it feels easy. Sometimes it feels hard. The students see the resistance, but they say "I am wiling to work even with fear." "Ok. Let's sit. Let me teach you." Resistance is there. But it's overcomed once we talk See where each stands and what we need to do to move from that position of resistance. After a three months, youth who had barely finised 8th or 9th grade, are able to pass test that are meant for 11th graders. This reminded me of the adult classes where I used to volunteer where I would see middle age men learn to write their first letters. Resistance to show that you don't know, but .....willing to put pencil to paper. A. E.O.I. U. Apple. Bee, Cow, ...

So. Of course, I see my own resistance. But. Like my youth, I am here. With books tucked in my arms, here at the Treeleaf Zendo school desk. Videos are good, but a live person is better to ask. Maybe you are resistant to use skype and your time limited. This is fine. We all have limits like I do. So. Someone else can come to my desk and teach me. Here I am. Books. Pencil. A.B.C.D...Opera.Pear.Rakusu.

PS....sewing circle anyone?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2501/...aa636e8f63.jpg

I completely agree with this post.

I want to say personally to you both how much I appreciate your time not only in responding to posts regularly and answering them thoroughly but your sharing of the Dharma on the videos. I've never met you, yet you both answer my questions promptly and sincerely, and I cannot express how thankful I am for that.

Second, in terms of the point made "in this community, a lot of people love receiving support, advice, guidance, teachings,"

From my own perspective, I came out of the gate posting on this forum asking a lot of questions.... my questions are endless. I think that is part of the delusion.. my delusion personally at least. I need the answer, just this next answer or this next book to add to my intellectual collection because then I'll have all the answers, and will live happily ever after.

It's the endless circle of Dukkha now with a "Buddhist" stamp to make it seem like less BS and more real/more spiritual, but it's a stealthy trick of my ego.

In the end, all of the intellectualizations are meaningless without the actualization of the Dharma in my life.

Hi Chicanobudista,

I feel sad when people fail to listen...You are pointing at living mountains and they are stuck in the map. You tell them how great it is to walk in the wilderness, and they all they want is a schoolteacher and a dry bench. Even with a teacher by your side, you would struggle. You may go and find out there a teacher and a group of people sewing, you won't escape the very experience I am talking about. The power of conditionning lasts long. You fail to see that part of my teaching is precisely to let you be out, to taste what it is like to not know where to go and go anyway. In a way, you don't want to learn sewing as I teach it.

I feel sad when people fail to listen.


gassho


Taigu

Tis better to give than receive, yes? And tis better to discover there is always more to give, yes? Thus to give more is the best, yes? But how to give more? That is the question, but the act is to Give More!, and finding a way to BE that Giving is the answering Way.

Its scary giving up the conditioning we have spent our live up to now cultivating, and doing it almost inadvertently. May it be that we resist a challenge or difficulty or road block because its makes us vulnerable? It makes sense that it is good to give and give even more, but why is it so hard for some of us to give up the fear and trepidation that really ties us back? I know it has me tethered to the wall to a maddening extent some times. Effort is always followed by fulfillment. Nothing easy really seems worth it.


Gassho,
Dave

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Originally Posted by Taigu

Hi Chicanobudista,

I feel sad when people fail to listen...You are pointing at living mountains and they are stuck in the map. You tell them how great it is to walk in the wilderness, and they all they want is a schoolteacher and a dry bench. Even with a teacher by your side, you would struggle. You may go and find out there a teacher and a group of people sewing, you won't escape the very experience I am talking about. The power of conditionning lasts long. You fail to see that part of my teaching is precisely to let you be out, to taste what it is like to not know where to go and go anyway. In a way, you don't want to learn sewing as I teach it.

I feel sad when people fail to listen.


gassho


Taigu

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And I think you dont hear me asking for help. But here I still am sitting outside the temple.

Sometimes teachers don't want to teach, sometimes students don't want to learn. Odd, isn't it?

Chet

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

Sometimes teachers don't want to teach, sometimes students don't want to learn. Odd, isn't it?

Chet

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:lol: :wink:

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Originally Posted by dumm

Nothing easy really seems worth it.


Gassho,
Dave

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And it oddly goes the other way too. We shouldn't maybe fool ourselves into thinking that everything difficult is valuable.

Maybe I'm just being contrary. In essence, I sympathize with Taigu even though I'm sure I have and will likely again argue against sound advice.

Chet

Chet--Thanks for the thought. It really made think...and laugh. :mrgreen:

We make judgement on people here based on things we post. We think we know them with a couple of words. So. Rather than continue this back and forth, I am moving to other threads and the let the Jukai process take it's time....step by step. What might have been a misplaced statement for help and suggestions has turned into another new thread where I believe it's heading to a discussion with personalized undertones. There a personal things going on in my life that require my attention and I'll check at the Jukai thread as it moves.I have said what I have to say.

I will only leave with a note resistance from my personal life. I was born and raised in Mexico. My parent brought me to the US w/o knowing much English. I only knew a couple of words. At my school district, we had no bilingual program in Junior HS. It was full immersion. The superintendent decided that I should fall back one year in elementary and survive there. The first months the classes seemed like a blur in which teachers spoke in what sounded like gibberish. It was sink or swim for me. I decided to swim as much as I could, but....thankfully I also had an English teacher that took it upon himself to teach me and another couple of non-English speaking students to learn the language. In the end, I knew it was up to me to learn and progress. Now. I am not sure if learned English well enough...but....yeah....we all been there where resistance was our first obstacle.

Nuff said for tonite......gassho.......

Very difficult.
What to give and what to take.
I was reading a thread on another site about 'idiot compassion'- giving to others based on our stuff, not on whats good for them.
I guess first we need to be as equinamous as possible so we make sure we aren't running on our scripts, as much as that is possible anyway.
But even then..how do we know whats good for them, or what they need?
Also how much do we just give freely anyway..maybe everything.....
I see Taigu's point..we have it easy these days in some ways and we value things less because we are inundated with easy ways to get things- provided we have the money usually. Working things out- 'not being spoon-fed' as our teachers at school used to say- and learning by trial and error are great. If we can't do this on simple things then do we have the discipline to really manifest this path in the world?
I also see Chicanobudista as genuinely asking for help. I don't know him well enough to even begin to know what his situation is. The other day I was doing a Tai Chi class and the lady next to me kept saying she was stupid in an increasingly frustrated tone. We were doing a new portion of the form and it was very easy to me to get the footwork right, but for some reason she couldn't do it. If I judge everybody by how I find things I just get to be a pain in the arse. She wanted help- I helped. Simple..no debate or drama.
So I don't know guys....I think I'll just help folks when I see a need which I think I can be of service to, without worrying about all these issues.
Of course, when I am bogged down in my own stuff I might miss others needs, or ignore them.
Its messy being human.
Hope you guys resolve this in friendliness. One last thing that might be useful is to ask "what can I take from this that will progress my path regardless of the other person's motivations?" At least this way it becomes something potentially useful and takes the focus off the other person too-- could be an upaya I guess.
All the best to everyone
Rich

The best advice I should take for myself is this:

Consider criticism before rejecting it. Don't fear rejecting it if it cannot be reconciled with one's honest assessment, but at least give it an honest assessment. This is the advice I most need to take to myself.

For others, perhaps they are more prone to believing the criticism of others and don't give their own inclinations the honest assessments they deserve. It seems to be different for everyone.

There seems to be one path in Zen, but so many different directions about how to travel it. Realize that this has more to do with where we start than where we are going.

IMHO.

Chet

I think this is an excellent post by Taigu, and excellent thread... You can't cook a good soup without stirring the pot every once in a while. People get complacent and lose the sense of urgency in life and practice that was there when their backs were more against the wall spiritually... I remember the talks that John Daido Loori would give when he thought his students were being complacent or lazy or lacking in gratitude. He was not "nice"! But those were some of his best talks... they caught everyone in the room, regarless of for whom they were intended.

I've gotten complacent and numb in my own life and practice and I need really harsh words sometimes to slap me awake! Which is why Chet is such a great friend on the spiritual path :mrgreen: If someone could get me on the cushion and in full-blown appreciation of my life, alert, focused, disciplined, by beating me up, I would take the beating! Sometimes a sharp word, like a sharp slap, can get the blood flowing!

Feel free to drag me through the coals any time... I need it... :shock: :? :mrgreen:

http://coacheshotseat.com/coacheshot...eWeeHerman.jpg

LA-LA-LA-LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU.


:mrgreen:

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Originally Posted by Stephanie

... they caught everyone in the room, regarless of for whom they were intended.

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Yes!
This post is for 1 person and its for every single one of us, no point in trying to figure who its for...Its for YOU!/ME/(all of us of course!)
A good rule of thumb for any lesson being put out there...just figure its directed at you and take a step back and open your eyes and ears :D

Gassho
Shohei

Occasionally I will find myself stuck between the lack of an urge to do something and the (no)soul wracking guilt that I have not yet done anything. Middle way. Most of the hands on places around here require a 12 month commitment, they want people they can consistently count on. I do my green power when I can, but I could definitely do more.

Really trying to get the "Buddhist Club" at college amped up and ready for charitable work! We'll see how that goes (the former president is leaving for Oxford, so they have been placed in my incapable hands for leadership of some sort :mrgreen: ) Interfaith cooperation with bigger clubs and the like.

But anyways I ramble, it is inspiring to have such a message brought up. And I, as much as anyone else if not more, need my ass dragged in the coals for a nice scorching from time to time.

Gassho
Taylor

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Originally Posted by chicanobudista

And I think you dont hear me asking for help. But here I still am sitting outside the temple.

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At any Zen monastery in Asia, they will leave the person waiting to enter outside the door, ignored ... for hours, better for days, before his or her presence is even acknowledged.

Before one can enter ... even if it is not literally 'out in the snow' (though sometimes so) ... one is left sitting Zazen morning to night for about a week in "Tangaryo" ... left in the same clothes, without a bath, their few belongings in a small bag leaning against the wall ...

http://www.mitene.or.jp/~katumin/eih...a/tangaryo.gif..

The sewing of a Rakusu is not like studying for a high school diploma., not even like struggling as a child to learn a new language. It is a process in which the must be some hardship and resistance precisely in order to learn the unlearnable lesson ...

... that there is nothing to attain, nothing to achieve, nothing to master, nothing to resist.

Mistakes and dead ends are part of the road ... all to imbue one with the understanding that life has no "mistakes", no dead ends ... and that is so EVEN for the dead ends and mistakes.

It is not a skill in sewing that you master, but a skill in finding the wholeness of life's tapestry.

In fact, things may be too easy, too convenient. The hurdles may be too low. If anyone would be led more by the hand, shown how to avoid the mistakes and traps and blood from pricked fingers ... a disservice would be done.

Life is often filled with things we want to "achieve" "get done" "accomplish" "get finished with", get a diploma or reward for. Not this. This is not that.

It may be time to raise the bar a bit ... make folks work for it a bit more ... for there is nothing to achieve.

Gassho, J

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Originally Posted by Stephanie

Sometimes a sharp word, like a sharp slap, can get the blood flowing!

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Agreed, but sometimes a kind word can help just as much, especially for those who have already been beaten up either physically or mentally.

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Originally Posted by Jundo

[..]
The sewing of a Rakusu is not like studying for a G.E.D., not even like struggling as a child to learn a new language. It is a process in which the must be some hardship and resistance precisely in order to learn the unlearnable lesson ...
[...]

It is not a skill in sewing that you master, but a skill in finding the wholeness of life's tapestry.

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Actually, studying for the GED is in many ways like the sewing a rakusu. Sure you learn a skill. Sure learn how to take a test. But you also learn something about yourself. I invite folks here to come and sit with my students. Sit with them. Learn something about them...and yourself.

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Originally Posted by Dosho

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Originally Posted by Stephanie

Sometimes a sharp word, like a sharp slap, can get the blood flowing!

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Agreed, but sometimes a kind word can help just as much, especially for those who have already been beaten up either physically or mentally.

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Sharp words
Kind words.
Bad Cop.
Good Cop.
:wink:

I barely came from the hospital tonite after visiting my mom. She suffered a brain aneurysm. She can't talk well and needs helps moving. My Dad and I help in what we can. My father lifted her from her wheel chair and then set her on the bed. Then, my dad and I at the count of 1, 2, 3 lifted her to put her right so we can feed her. Slowly put a blanket on her and made sure her adult diaper were well put. We brought food and slowly spoon. eat. spoon. eat. spoon. eat. Clean her chin and mouth. We stayed. Talked. She fell asleep.

I am back in this forum. Good to see the back and forth. But also see a lot of flagpoles with flags. Yet. At the hospital, when feeding my mother. Whether I fail to listen. Whether GED is not like rakusu sewing. This vanishes at that moment. There. Me. Mother. Eating. Appreciating the time. This is good for the rakusu in my heart. The mud wall falls under the rain. Mud turns into fertile ground.

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Originally Posted by chicanobudista

I am back in this forum. Good to see the back and forth. But also see a lot of flagpoles with flags. Yet. At the hospital, when feeding my mother. Whether I fail to listen. Whether GED is not like rakusu sewing. This vanishes at that moment. There. Me. Mother. Eating. Appreciating the time. This is good for the rakusu in my heart. The mud wall falls under the rain. Mud turns into fertile ground.

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I an sorry for your mother's condition. Please let us know what we can do to help, and know that we are all there with you.

I recall my mother's last months, a series of strokes. This is what happens to your mother, my mother, everyone's mother or father or wife or husband, to me and you. It is life, it is not easy ... yet not to be resisted.

And that is a reason why sewing the Rakusu is not to be made 'so easy', why there must be some resistance. Let me respectfully remind you, life and death are of supreme importance ... time passes by, and opportunity is lost ...

This place sometimes bothers me when folks start to sound like a bunch of bored homemakers going to a yoga class to kill their afternoon.

Gassho, Jundo

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Originally Posted by Jundo

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Originally Posted by chicanobudista

And that is a reason why sewing the Rakusu is not to be made 'so easy', why there must be some resistance.

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must or musn't? :?:

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Originally Posted by chicanobudista

must or musn't? :?:

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Yes.

Sometimes resistance, sometimes no resistance ... sometimes (and this is the trickiest) resistance without the least resistance.

Good luck on sewing, and the situation with mom. All whole and the same.

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Originally Posted by Jundo

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Originally Posted by chicanobudista

must or musn't? :?:

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Yes.

Sometimes resistance, sometimes no resistance ... sometimes (and this is the trickiest) resistance without the least resistance.

Good luck on sewing, and the situation with mom. All whole and the same.

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Thanks....gassho....

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Originally Posted by Jundo

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Originally Posted by chicanobudista

And I think you dont hear me asking for help. But here I still am sitting outside the temple.

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At any Zen monastery in Asia, they will leave the person waiting to enter outside the door, ignored ... for hours, better for days, before his or her presence is even acknowledged.

Before one can enter ... even if it is not literally 'out in the snow' (though sometimes so) ... one is left sitting Zazen morning to night for about a week in "Tangaryo" ... left in the same clothes, without a bath, their few belongings in a small bag leaning against the wall ...

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In China, they used to bind a woman's foot. In Africa, they mutilate women's genitalia. In most Western nations, men are circumcized. Kosher Jews don't eat pork.

Referring to tradition is not an answer to the question - it's obfuscation. Chicanobuddhista (WTF is your real name again? I can't remember) is not Chinese or Japanese. Treating us as if we were is perhaps misguided.

In a meat-world sangha, a student ignored by the teacher may nonetheless get some instruction from other students. How can that happen here regarding the bib?

Chet

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Originally Posted by Jundo

This place sometimes bothers me when folks start to sound like a bunch of bored homemakers going to a yoga class to kill their afternoon.

Gassho, Jundo

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Bored homemakers are also worthy of the Dharma.

Chet

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

Chicanobuddhista (WTF is your real name again?

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oops..sorry..here...I forgot to put it on when I got here.....

http://www.cpasitesolutions.com/abou...s/name-tag.png

:mrgreen:

Chicanobudista, I am sorry to hear about these difficult circonstances and wish all the best to your mum. Take it easy.

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Chet wrote:
In a meat-world sangha, a student ignored by the teacher may nonetheless get some instruction from other students. How can that happen here regarding the bib?

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Chet, Chicanobudista is not ignored by the teacher, the teacher advises a course of action. It is fully part of the teaching. Of course, any student can receive help from others, it happens often. But there is a major difference between helping from time to time and organizing a whole sewing live session on line. This is not realistic for me because I live in Japan and it implies commitments you have no idea about. I don't want to burden others and ask them to do it and I think they are not rady yet to take this responsability.

You are refering to the kesa as the bib. I find it offensive in your mouth. Particularly when you think you have no experience whatsoever of sewing it.


Referring to tradition is part of the answer.

We all find it very hard to take lessons and we all prefer to give them. You are obviously not an exception. Respect and gratitude are things that need to be learned sometimes.

I am sorry to read your words and sincerely hope you are not feeling too unwell. If you are balanced and fine, I would strongly invite you to question your thoughts about this practice, your commitment and your style.

gassho


Taigu

One last thing that should be said...everytime I teach, this teaching is for me. Before I joined Treeleaf, I used to say that I had only one student and a very bad one, myself.

gassho

Taigu

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

In China, they used to bind a woman's foot. In Africa, they mutilate women's genitalia. In most Western nations, men are circumcized. Kosher Jews don't eat pork.
...

In a meat-world sangha, a student ignored by the teacher may nonetheless get some instruction from other students. How can that happen here regarding the bib?

Chet

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Some traditional and modern hard practices overstep a line of cruelty and are rather pointless. We do not use the Kyosaku stick in our Lineage for that reason (although, even that, if used gently is just a 'waker upper'. Menzan, I understand, wanted to use a long stick with a feather instead) ...

http://home.comcast.net/~dayamati/kyosaku.jpg

Other strict and hard practices leave a lesson in one's bones and are worthwhile. There is a difference.

Some practices from Japan and China are silly for 21st century westerners to pursue, others are worthwhile to keep around. There is a difference.

viewtopic.php?p=35552#p35552

Getting instruction from each other, and supporting each other ... building a spirit of Sangha ... is also part of the sewing. That has been our experience the last two years. In fact, the teacher needs to not butt in too much to the sewers figuring it out for themselves, and supporting and encouraging each other. Furthermore, the students do a disservice to each other if they overly spell things out for each other, do the work for each other.

I think it is time for you to sew a Rakusu, Chet, and to spend a bit less time with video games.

Gassho, Jundo

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Originally Posted by Taigu

Chicanobudista, I am sorry to hear about these difficult circonstances and wish all the best to your mum. Take it easy.

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Chet wrote:
In a meat-world sangha, a student ignored by the teacher may nonetheless get some instruction from other students. How can that happen here regarding the bib?

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Chet, Chicanobudista is not ignored by the teacher, the teacher advises a course of action. It is fully part of the teaching. Of course, any student can receive help from others, it happens often. But there is a major difference between helping from time to time and organizing a whole sewing live session on line. This is not realistic for me because I live in Japan and it implies commitments you have no idea about. I don't want to burden others and ask them to do it and I think they are not rady yet to take this responsability.

---

I do understand this, Taigu. My understanding is that your schedule is very busy. In a more traditional Sangha, there would be classes - because like so many Zen things, the way you do it is pretty particular - and to Americans, sewing itself is pretty foreign. My point was not to disrespect your time, my point was that more instruction is OFTEN required of people doing this particular thing, and such instruction is often provided. Hence, turning 'Sewing your Rakusu" into a koan is a bit - unintentionally untraditional. The bottom line is, it's not a disrespect of your time that I was expressing.

Quote:

---

You are refering to the kesa as the bib. I find it offensive in your mouth. Particularly when you think you have no experience whatsoever of sewing it.

---

Actually, I was referring to the Rakusu. The Kesa is a mumu :twisted: Call it what you will, it's a bib. It's a fancy, Japanese, Zen bib, but that doesn't make it less bib-ish. If I was to walk down the street to the gas station for a snack wearing the rakusu - besides that in itself being very irreverant - someone might actually say, 'Hey, cool bib!' If I corrected them, that'd be mildly inappropriate in itself.

As for offending you, glad I could be of service! Finally I've found my calling! :twisted:

(All above offered in light-heartedness.)

Chet

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jundo

I think it is time for you to sew a Rakusu, Chet, and to spend a bit less time with video games.

Gassho, Jundo

---

Boy, do we ever agree on that! I need to figure out how to break it into a simple-step process. I think step one is finding the supply list and the vids - and getting a sewing kit.

I often need to break down intimidating things into steps or I get overwhelmed by the whole big-damned-idea of it.

I purchased the book, but have since misplaced it. It's probably at my mom's place in a box somewhere, sadly. I'll Amazon it - too bad it's not on iBooks yet.

Chet

Thanks, Chet.
And yes, it would be great if you could give it a start.

gassho

Taigu

For all this talk of whether sharp words or a challenge can be useful--Erik, I've learned more about you as a person reading this thread than reading your other posts to a hundred other threads. Sometimes you strike me as aloof about Treeleaf, even (sorry!) smug and a bit condescending. One of the people who likes to joke around and have a few Zen debates but not open up too much or take any of this too personally or seriously. So I am glad, to finally have a different sense of you... someone with a sick mother, who taught GED classes and finds sewing difficult. Someone who doesn't seem smug, distant, or condescending to me now.

Dosho, IMO, there's a difference between cruel and demeaning language, and language that is sharp, yet compassionate. I'm no fan of verbal cruelty. But I am a fan of the kind of striking honesty that shakes a person out of complacency and forces them to really look at something for a second.

I admire the practice of Tangaryo and don't find it cruel or "medieval," but I'm not sure it's necessary either. I don't think that anything can artificially make someone deeply value this practice. I think it takes real hardship in life, real spiritual hardship, for this to ever become much more than an afternoon's pastime. But even then, even after suffering greatly in delusion and spiritual emptiness, and finding one's way back, one still can become complacent. That certainly has happened with me. I feel no urgency, or drive to sit, and as a result, my sitting practice is inconsistent--some days on, some days off, some days on, etc. I would sit Tangaryo if I had to in order to be able to continue to practice here, but then I would complete it and come back inside and go pretty quickly back to complacency.

So how do we wake up from complacency, how do we feel a sense of urgency when our back isn't against the wall? That has been my koan for months. Let me know if you find an answer :wink:

And as for the rakusu--isn't that aligned with the Jukai process? When does the next Jukai start? I want to do the next one, don't want to miss it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stephanie

For all this talk of whether sharp words or a challenge can be useful--Erik, I've learned more about you as a person reading this thread than reading your other posts to a hundred other threads. Sometimes you strike me as aloof about Treeleaf, even (sorry!) smug and a bit condescending. One of the people who likes to joke around and have a few Zen debates but not open up too much or take any of this too personally or seriously. So I am glad, to finally have a different sense of you... someone with a sick mother, who taught GED classes and finds sewing difficult. Someone who doesn't seem smug, distant, or condescending to me now.

---

:shock: :mrgreen:

Well. In my defense......I'll let my defense lawyer speak in my behalf

http://30.media.tumblr.com/ahLApMt1V...kvoto1_400.jpg

:mrgreen:

I usually can't spend too much time debating/discoursing/dialoguing due to my work (working in a migrant farmworker GED program), my family (married and taking care of both my elderly godfather and mother), and community (my sangha involvement, peace & social justice group, etc). So. I usually just poke here, quip, and move on. :wink: 8)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by disastermouse

If I was to walk down the street to the gas station for a snack wearing the rakusu - besides that in itself being very irreverant - someone might actually say, 'Hey, cool bib!' If I corrected them, that'd be mildly inappropriate in itself.

---

In Alabama, if you wore it to the gas station, you'd probably be
run over by a monster truck! Then they'd use it to wipe you off
the pavement.

I'm still relatively new here. I often feel like a kindergartener among
High Schoolers. But sometimes I read things that give me a little
poke in my gutts that make me wonder if I am on the right path here.
I mean, we just find out the alarming news about Chicanobudista's
mother, and immediately, the conversation turns to..."sewing..."???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jundo

I recall my mother's last months, a series of strokes. This is what happens to your mother, my mother, everyone's mother or father or wife or husband, to me and you. It is life, it is not easy ... yet not to be resisted.

And that is a reason why sewing the Rakusu is not to be made 'so easy',

---

I mean, maybe I am reading this wrong. But the jump between concern
for someone's dying mother and sewing a rakusu seems like a universe
apart. Is this the kind of compassion that years of zazen produces? I
am sure I am misguided in this judgement. But a little human kindness
and a little less ritualistic jargon would have done better in this situation.
At least, that's how this "bored homemaker" sees it.

ghop

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ghop

I mean, maybe I am reading this wrong. But the jump between concern
for someone's dying mother and sewing a rakusu seems like a universe
apart. Is this the kind of compassion that years of zazen produces? I
am sure I am misguided in this judgement. But a little human kindness
and a little less ritualistic jargon would have done better in this situation.
At least, that's how this "bored homemaker" sees it.

ghop

---

No, never a universe apart. And the teachings are the greatest gift that can be offered to someone whose mother is ill.

A shoulder and a kind, loving word are always there too. But the teachings on life and suffering are the greatest gift that can be offered.

Gassho, Jundo

Erik: Very sorry to hear about your mother. As Jundo said, if there is anything we can do please let us know.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by disastermouse

I do understand this, Taigu. My understanding is that your schedule is very busy. In a more traditional Sangha, there would be classes - because like so many Zen things, the way you do it is pretty particular - and to Americans, sewing itself is pretty foreign.

---

Sewing is foreign to Americans? IMHO, I'd suggest that you stop speaking for entire groups and only for yourself Chet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stephanie

Dosho, IMO, there's a difference between cruel and demeaning language, and language that is sharp, yet compassionate. I'm no fan of verbal cruelty. But I am a fan of the kind of striking honesty that shakes a person out of complacency and forces them to really look at something for a second.

---

There is most certainly a difference Stephanie, but like Chet you also seem to generalize what works for you as THE way for others. Some people don't need striking honesty...they need compassion. Striking honesty perhaps later, but the abrasive style you and Chet display is often too much so...IMHO. :)

Gassho,
Dosho

Greg,

Have you heard the story of the Buddha and Kisa Gotami?

Kisa Gotami was a woman who had lived a hard life with little kindness. Her husband was cruel to her, and her only joy was her son. When her son died just a few years into his life, Kisa Gotami went mad with grief. A wise person saw her condition and told her to find the Buddha, who had the medicine she needed. Kisa Gotami went to the Buddha, and asked him to give her the medicine that would restore her dead child to life. The Buddha told her to go out and find a mustard seed from a house where nobody had died. Kisa Gotami was heartened, and began her search, going door to door. Everyone was willing to give her a mustard seed, but every household she encountered had seen at least one death. She understood why the Buddha had sent her on this quest. She returned to the Buddha, who confirmed what she had realized: "There is no house where death does not come." Kisa Gotami asked to be ordained, became a bhikkhuni, and eventually was enlightened.

The Buddha did not fawn all over her, or reassure her, or frantically run around trying to make the sadness of her loss disappear. Pressing her to face and realize that death and loss come to all was more healing for her than any gentle, reassuring words, healing chants, or miracles.

The simple act of sewing, of doing something difficult to do, where there is resistance and where we cannot find the help we need, might be a much greater healing force than any hand-wringing any of us could do.

I know one day my loved ones will die. I think often about my parents, who are getting older. How long will I be able to talk and laugh with them the way I am used to doing? How long will I be able to talk to them at all? I will be devastated when they die. But when they do, I would rather keep the company of those who wouldn't act as if some remarkable tragedy had just occurred, but the ones who would acknowledge, "Yes, this is always how it is." I would think that sewing... or any other simple activity... would have greater power to connect us with the intimacy of what is. I would be grateful to the person who handed me the broom and said, "Sweep."

Stephanie

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stephanie

I would be grateful to the person who handed me the broom and said, "Sweep."

---

Yeah, I understand all that. It's all a matter of personal differences.
Me, I'd get more comfort by sharing my suffering with a human being
than with a broom. It sometimes does alot to follow Thich Nhat Hanh's
advice, to embrace the person compassionately, and say, "My friend,
I am here for you." Of course, you have to be really present to do so,
and you have to mean it. This means that you will have had to be
practicing compassion with yourself in your own daily life, you will have
had to be working to transform your own suffering. Kisa Gotami was
not a buddhist. She was just a person who was grieveing. This is not
the case with Chicanobudista. He is a buddhist among buddhist. He
knows all this stuff. He says he's suffering. Ok. Hand him a needle
and some thread, cause in the end his mother, a living, breathing,
human being, is no different than a ritualistic bib that says, "I belong
to buddhism." I can't buy it. This forum seems to be becoming rather
stoic lately. I agree with Dosho. He has such a kind and quiet voice. It
seems like everytime he speaks he is not heard because someone else
is shouting about how "tough" we have to be. To the outsider we would
seem rather cold. Lately, we seem to be trying to compete with other
zendo's as if we had to prove our validity just because we are an online
sangha. If the Buddha taught there is no self, then would it hurt to drop
the shield every once in a while, leave the buddha-jargon alone, and just
show someone else our human heart? Is that ok? Just to be human? Just
to care about someone else? Not always be trying to preach?

gassho
Greg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dosho

Erik: Very sorry to hear about your mother. As Jundo said, if there is anything we can do please let us know.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by disastermouse

I do understand this, Taigu. My understanding is that your schedule is very busy. In a more traditional Sangha, there would be classes - because like so many Zen things, the way you do it is pretty particular - and to Americans, sewing itself is pretty foreign.

---

---

Can be. Is your sense of righteous service to the technically correct now thoroughly sated? LOL!

Chet

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ghop

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stephanie

I would be grateful to the person who handed me the broom and said, "Sweep."

---

Yeah, I understand all that. It's all a matter of personal differences.
Me, I'd get more comfort by sharing my suffering with a human being
than with a broom. It sometimes does alot to follow Thich Nhat Hanh's
advice, to embrace the person compassionately, and say, "My friend,
I am here for you." Of course, you have to be really present to do so,
and you have to mean it. This means that you will have had to be
practicing compassion with yourself in your own daily life, you will have
had to be working to transform your own suffering. Kisa Gotami was
not a buddhist. She was just a person who was grieveing. This is not
the case with Chicanobudista. He is a buddhist among buddhist. He
knows all this stuff. He says he's suffering. Ok. Hand him a needle
and some thread, cause in the end his mother, a living, breathing,
human being, is no different than a ritualistic bib that says, "I belong
to buddhism." I can't buy it. This forum seems to be becoming rather
stoic lately. I agree with Dosho. He has such a kind and quiet voice. It
seems like everytime he speaks he is not heard because someone else
is shouting about how "tough" we have to be. To the outsider we would
seem rather cold. Lately, we seem to be trying to compete with other
zendo's as if we had to prove our validity just because we are an online
sangha. If the Buddha taught there is no self, then would it hurt to drop
the shield every once in a while, leave the buddha-jargon alone, and just
show someone else our human heart? Is that ok? Just to be human? Just
to care about someone else? Not always be trying to preach?

gassho
Greg

---

Don't worry Greg, both the rough and the soft are here in this Sangha. I won't speak for Erik, but I doubt he's much offended by the admonition because it's juxtaposed next to the news of his mother's health. That's how life is, really...the smooth and the rough, the hard and the soft, the sunny days and rainy days - all jumbled up in a big old mess of life that oddly isn't really all that messy except in our thinking about it.

If you stay, stay. If you go, we wish you well.

Chet

IMO: if you want a hug, go to a friend. If you want to wake up, go to the zendo.

If you want a gallon of milk, go to the grocery store. If you want a pair of sneakers, go in the shoe store.

I don't believe it's uncompassionate to be direct, to hand over a broom instead of offer a hug. It's just a different kind of compassion.

One would be ridiculous to march into the shoe store and rail about how uncompassionate the proprietors are that they don't sell milk. "But there are so many hungry children in the world! What are you doing to help? Think of the children1!!!" Uh, go to the corner store next door.

This isn't to say we can't be kind, or that conventional kindness isn't part of the Way. But when a teacher offers you something that doesn't look or sound or feel like conventional kindness, I think that's a moment when a humble and faithful person might ask, "What is he trying to teach me here?" And listen.

Kisa Gotami could have gone back to the Buddha and said, "You are a very uncompassionate man. You sent me on a fruitless goose chase, and my son is still dead." She could have marched off and went looking for the local medicine man. She could have went looking for Jesus, who wasn't so hesitant to raise a few dead folks here and there to stay the tears of crying mothers.

Thich Nhat Hanh says, "The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the earth." Jesus showed the miracle of walking on the water. The Buddha showed Kisa Gotami the miracle of walking on the earth. I think this was ultimately more compassionate.

What I understand Jundo to be saying, about "homemakers": do we want to wake up, or not? And if we do, are we not prepared to be challenged? To be uncomfortable? What are we coming here for? Are we students, are we Zen practitioners, or are we a social club that gives group hugs and Kleenex when someone shares a sad story?

I am not insensitive to the difficulty of what Erik is facing. I just don't feel like it's my place to offer kind sympathies and a hug. I feel it would be insincere, because I hardly know him personally. That doesn't seem to me to be what we're here for. I am his sangha-mate, and my understanding of sangha is that it is a community of people who press one another to wake up. The reason for Tangaryo in my mind, is that once you walk through the doors, you're going to go through much more difficulty as you have to let go of everything you believe and want to hold on to. This is the shared work we are engaged in. We could kiss one another's boo-boos but is that helping us wake up? We don't have to be "stoic," but we have to be willing to face the hard stuff.

Thanks Stephanie and Chett. Again, I mean no disrespect.
I'm just trying to get my head around all this stuff. I have
alot to learn. I come from a different background and tend
to see things differently. As to Jesus, maybe alot of those
stories have a deeper meaning then what is often read into
them. I know He's brought me back to life a few times, and
likewise, the Buddha has often made me feel like I could walk
on water. I'll practice the "Art Of Shutting Up" for a while. I
seem to be wrong at every turn. I just think if the Buddha were
here (and he is, hello :shock: ) he would be a little more concerned
about people and a little less concerned about buddhism. But, then
again, after years of practice, maybe I'll see things differently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stephanie

IMO: if you want a hug, go to a friend. If you want to wake up, go to the zendo.

---

Thanks for the head's up. But nobody here seems to be very awake.

gassho
Greg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by disastermouse

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dosho

Erik: Very sorry to hear about your mother. As Jundo said, if there is anything we can do please let us know.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by disastermouse

I do understand this, Taigu. My understanding is that your schedule is very busy. In a more traditional Sangha, there would be classes - because like so many Zen things, the way you do it is pretty particular - and to Americans, sewing itself is pretty foreign.

---

---

Can be. Is your sense of righteous service to the technically correct now thoroughly sated? LOL!

Chet

---

If there ever was a greater case of the pot calling the kettle black, I haven't heard of it. :) And you missed my point entirely, but that's not altogether suprising.

Intermission.

Just to clarify. I didn't mention my mother for brownie pts or hugs. I get those from my momma.

One of my pts is this forum is great, but putting things in perspective. This whole discussion on rakusu and importance of sewing is great, but I have learned a lot more in the time I am with my mother in this juncture of her life.

When the rakusu is not on you physically, where is it? Where do you carry it? Where did you leave it? The old tattered rakusu that has no ink it it. The lineage that goes back to Buddha with a lineage of unknown teachers. Here it is in my heart. I sew it each moment. No videos...just life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chicanobudista

When the rakusu is not on you physically, where is it? Where do you carry it? Where did you leave it? The old tattered rakusu that has no ink it it. The lineage that goes back to Buddha with a lineage of unknown teachers. Here it is in my heart. I sew it each moment. No videos...just life.

---

Gassho... thanks for this.

Reminds me of some lines by Ikkyu:

Every day priests minutely examine the Dharma
And endlessly chant complicated sutras.
Before doing that, though, they should learn
How to read the love letters sent by the wind and rain, the snow and moon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stephanie

Reminds me of some lines by Ikkyu:

Every day priests minutely examine the Dharma
And endlessly chant complicated sutras.
Before doing that, though, they should learn
How to read the love letters sent by the wind and rain, the snow and moon.

---

Beautiful.........

deep bow....

Hi Greg,

I just wanted to say that I can sympathise with you, so don't feel that you're the only one a year behind everyone else in the class and feeling wrong at every turn.

(I also have self imposed "shut up" modes, from time to time, although I don't contribute enough in depth or frequency for anyone to notice!)

I would just say this though: try and take some time to look at your own feelings about what you've read here, whatever they are - they're not wrong, even when they feel 'wrong'.

Maybe you can recognise something in this, if not just ignore it: while reading this, or any other 'lively' thread I often find a "self-defence commentator" interposed somewhere between me and the screen telling me what to think about each post. In the current thread he's been calling out all sorts of names, (fey, passive aggressive, intransigent, self serving, honest, perceptive, correct, witty, disarming - he's been having a field day), and if I pay him attention I can feel my mood change depending on what he happens to be calling out, and it's really disconcerting.

I reckon he's there to try to put me on my guard against anything that is threatening 'my' little world view and the cosy little nest which contains my notions about what 'my' practice is and 'my' ideas of what Buddhism should be. It's perfectly natural and I wish I could just get over him, but no joy on that front so far. I just react, react react, in any way he says. And drifting off to the 'peace' and sanctuary of the zafu until everyone in Treeleaf gets their heads sorted out (i.e. comes back round to my way of thinking), might feel very appealing, might even be what I do from time to time, but isn't really what this is all about.

There's a lot to learn here (this thread has really helped with one of the blocks I had about the whole idea of rakusu sewing - I was very caught up in it being a buddhist 'thing', but in Jundo's post I got a glimpse of what it can be used for in terms of adding cohesion to the sangha, and beng more than an end in itself), and the lessons change and we change and we get glimpses here and there and we forget other stuff too. And some folks seem to get everything in flashes of lightning, and can express it again perfectly, and some of us are just bobbing in the water hoping to absorb something by osmosis. But the best way to do learn anything is to get stuck into it, which you already do far me than me as it is, so I hope you continue to stick with it, and give yourself time to digest how you feel about it all, and allow yourself to learn not just from what is said here, but from yourself, because you'll remember that teaching better than any other.

gassho,
Monkton

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by monkton

There's a lot to learn here (this thread has really helped with one of the blocks I had about the whole idea of rakusu sewing - I was very caught up in it being a buddhist 'thing', but in Jundo's post I got a glimpse of what it can be used for in terms of adding cohesion to the sangha, and beng more than an end in itself), and the lessons change and we change and we get glimpses here and there and we forget other stuff too. And some folks seem to get everything in flashes of lightning, and can express it again perfectly, and some of us are just bobbing in the water hoping to absorb something by osmosis. But the best way to do learn anything is to get stuck into it, which you already do far me than me as it is, so I hope you continue to stick with it, and give yourself time to digest how you feel about it all, and allow yourself to learn not just from what is said here, but from yourself, because you'll remember that teaching better than any other.

---

Monkton,

I really don't know what to say. This is probably the soundest advice
I have received. I have so much "growing up" to do, so many pre-
conceived ideas of what awakening is, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by monkton

I would just say this though: try and take some time to look at your own feelings about what you've read here, whatever they are - they're not wrong, even when they feel 'wrong'.

Maybe you can recognise something in this, if not just ignore it: while reading this, or any other 'lively' thread I often find a "self-defence commentator" interposed somewhere between me and the screen telling me what to think about each post. In the current thread he's been calling out all sorts of names, (fey, passive aggressive, intransigent, self serving, honest, perceptive, correct, witty, disarming - he's been having a field day), and if I pay him attention I can feel my mood change depending on what he happens to be calling out, and it's really disconcerting.

---

I will take this advice to heart. I think it will do me alot of good.

gassho
Greg

Hi everyone,

some wonderful posts in this thread (I don't mean just "nice" by wonderful btw.). Before I started sewing the kesa, I thought...gee, why can't I just buy the thing. However, now that I am approaching the finish line, I can finally appreciate the fact that this is an INTEGRAL part of our lineage. "We" Zennies have chosen (through following the examples of most Zen ancestors) not to have a thousand and one official means through which to realize our buddha nature. We have but a few (compared to e.g. the Tibetan tradition with its myriad forms), with Zazen being the core of everything. Oryoki and sewing are among those few, those happy few ways that are the bedrock of our actual living practise.

Life around me is not always nice, although I am a happy and blessed person...yet no matter whether the sun shone or rain was splashing down...I had to get myself to sew a bit further in the last months. Due to my wife's support and her not minding my spending so much time with this seemingly crooked rice field pattern cloth too much, these clumsy fingers (and I mean CLUMSY!!! Don't ever ask me for DIY advice folks please) have fallen in love with every painful stitch.

It is not just empty ritualism, but a practise that transcends notions of good day/ bad day....because the sewing has to continue in order to finish the Kesa, no matter what. Having said that, I feel that everyone who has known Jundo for a while knows that he's the last person not to offer a helping hand, a hug or a handkerchief when needed.

Rags and leftovers.The whole universe pricks my fingertips. In between each stitch there is crying and rejoicing.

And yes, it sucks big time when your loved ones suffer. Suffering sucks big time.
My granddad valiantly tried to hide my grandmother's dementia for a long long time, until he himself was suddenly facing greater physical difficulties than the wife he'd been married to for over fifty years. They both died in 2006, a bit later than my father in law that same year. What a year!

I hope that some of Kanzeon's blessings will enter the Kesa with every time I recite the Enmei Jukku Kannon Gyo under my breath. May all suffering beings find shelter under this vast robe of liberation.

Gassho,

Hans

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ghop

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stephanie

I would be grateful to the person who handed me the broom and said, "Sweep."

---

Yeah, I understand all that. It's all a matter of personal differences.
Me, I'd get more comfort by sharing my suffering with a human being
than with a broom. It sometimes does alot to follow Thich Nhat Hanh's
advice, to embrace the person compassionately, and say, "My friend,
I am here for you." ... He says he's suffering. Ok. Hand him a needle
and some thread, cause in the end his mother, a living, breathing,
human being, is no different than a ritualistic bib that says, "I belong
to buddhism." I can't buy it. This forum seems to be becoming rather
stoic lately.... It
seems like everytime he speaks he is not heard because someone else
is shouting about how "tough" we have to be. To the outsider we would
seem rather cold.

---

Dear Greg,

I am sorry if I did not clearly communicate my love and friendship for Erik at this hard time in life. In a Sangha, this family, we share all of life ... sad days and happy days, easy times and hard times ... together. None of life is to be pushed away yet, when we need a brother and sister's strength to lean on, it is available here.

But the real power of this Way is something, a medicine, that must also be freely dispensed. Some find it bitter, some sweet, but it must be taken nonetheless ... especially at times of sorrow.

It is not "stoicism", as you described it, because it is fully welcoming and embracing of all the tears and change and pain. When you cry, just cry. (I remember how shocked I was when I saw my first teacher, Azuma Roshi, crying one day soon after his wife died. I thought Zen teachers were supposed to be above all that. I said to him "I thought 'life and death' are but a dream, so why are you crying? He responded, 'Life and death are but a dream. I am crying because my wife has died.')

Nor is our way to fall into, become strangled by, drown amid rampaging emotions ... for many people lose themselves in their sorrow and cannot see beyond that.

Rather, our way might be said to fully welcome it all ... the ups and downs ... while seeing too a place without "up or down, birth and death, peace or war" ... a very Peaceful, Whole place. There is no way we can be apart from or lose our mothers, fathers, husbands, wives and children there. We are never apart.

Thus, knowing this ... we live fully embracing of life, yet unattached to demands for how we wish things to be. We cry, and smile a Buddha's peaceful smile at the same time.

If one only sees the sewing as thread and cloth ... one does not understand. If you do not see what is being sewn, who is sewing, and the wholeness that is being created amid a wholeness never lost ... then you do not understand ...

... and that would be the fault of Taigu and myself for having failed to make it clear.

Sewing the Rakusu is sewing back together the pieces of a broken heart, it is seeing that all of life is just the same ... just this and just this and now just this. It teaches us that none of us can get through this life without some sorrow, disappointment and pain. It is, in fact, all of life when seen as such. Placed around the neck, it is the most intimate hug and embrace of friend to friend ... its finite cloth covers all the universe, all of life, all of the pain.

I often say that, if someone is truly now occupied by life ... by studying for exams in school, illness or war (although one member of the military, in a war zone, told me that he would be sewing on the front lines), or a dying mother ... one can tend to that, that is the priority and all one's energies should be there. Just take care of that now. That is the real Rakusu. As Erik said ...

Quote:

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When the rakusu is not on you physically, where is it? Where do you carry it? Where did you leave it? The old tattered rakusu that has no ink it it. The lineage that goes back to Buddha with a lineage of unknown teachers. Here it is in my heart. I sew it each moment. ... ... ...just life.

---

Yet I make them promise to sew it later, when they can, because it cannot be run from ... because life is not run from. (On the other hand, one woman told me that sewing the Rakusu in the Intensive Care Unit, sitting endless hours next to the bed of her dying husband, kept her sane. I have heard many stories like that. Sometimes, the hospital cancer ward, the foxhole, the prison cell is the best place to sew).

The true Rakusu is not visible ... thus we sew.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greg

I just think if the Buddha were here (and he is, hello...) he would be a little more concerned
about people and a little less concerned about buddhism.

---

The Buddha (who might actually be called more "stoic" in the old Sutta, speaking of quelling emotions and such, than the more life embracing Mahayana Boddhisattva way) never failed to teach his Dharma lesson on life and death ... whether the person who came to him wanted to hear it or not. In the Piyajatika Sutta ... a householder of Sævatthi whose son had died went to see the Buddha ...

Quote:

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I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time a certain householder's dear & beloved little son, his only child, had died. Because of his death, the father had no desire to work or to eat. He kept going to the cemetery and crying out, "Where have you gone, my only little child? Where have you gone, my only little child?"

Then he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him, "Householder, your faculties are not those of one who is steady in his own mind. There is an aberration in your faculties."

"Lord, how could there not be an aberration in my faculties? My dear & beloved little son, my only child, has died. Because of his death, I have no desire to work or to eat. I keep going to the cemetery and crying out, 'Where have you gone, my only little child? Where have you gone, my only little child?'"

"That's the way it is, householder. That's the way it is — for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear."

---

But the householder did not want to hear this lesson on life and the mind's attachments ... So, he sought a pleasing answer from people who were willing to tell him what he wanted to hear.

The Mahayana Bodhisattva might handle this a bit otherwise from the "Old Testament" tough Buddha of the Pali Sutta ... and, offering a warm embrace, also say that those we hold dear are a source of sorrow and a source of joy, a source of distress and a source of fulfillment ... and that Joy and Peace which holds all sorrow and joy.

Yet he would do a great harm if he did not teach the hurting heart how to be free of life and death ... even amid life and death.

Gassho, J

I remember the last time I did sew a very big okesa, it was a time where my marriage was falling apart, I have lost my job, was basically alone and guess what? I was sewing out of this brokenheart. The fabric sometimes was wet with tears and I had to stop because I could not see anymore. This kesa was not for me, It was for my teacher...I did that days on end. That was my practice.

Ghop, you have, as we all do, a lot to unlearn...

Take care


gassho


Taigu

Holy shit, Jundo...

I've rarely seen you write like that! Truly, my heart has been opened and my defenses breached. I feel like life has, at least for a little while, entered my awareness with more urgency than it has for a long while.

Thank you for that.

Chet

Rakusu C&W

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sETQvtGStbQ[/video]]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sETQvtGStbQ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chicanobudista

Rakusu C&W

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sETQvtGStbQ[/video]]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sETQvtGStbQ

---

Well, I am not sure where "crying in one's beer" fits into the Precepts ... but nobody tops Hank Sr.

However, these two country songs are personal favorites, and sure fit this thread ... Please give a listen ...

Quote:

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Darryl Worley - sounds like life to me LYRICS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Geg6_-3jPzI[/video]]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Geg6_-3jPzI

Got a call last night from an old friends wife, said, I hate to bother you
But Johnny Ray fell off the wagon, hed been gone all afternoon
Well, I know my buddy, so I drove to Scullys and found him at the bar
Said, Hey Man, whats goin on, He said, I dont know where to start
Sarah's old car startin to fall apart and the washer quit last week
We had to put Mama in the nursing home and the baby's cuttin teeth


I didnt get much work this week and I got bills to pay
I said, I know this aint what you wanna hear but its what Im gonna say
Sounds like life to me, it aint no fantasy
It just a common case of everyday reality
Man, I know its tough but you gotta suck it up
To hear you talk youre caught up in some tragedy
It sounds like life to me

Well, his face turned red and he shook his head
He said, you dont understand, three kids and a wife depend on me
And Im just one man, top it off we just found out that Sarahs two months late
I said, Hey, bartender, set us up a round, we gotta celebrate
Sounds like life to me, aint no destiny
Yeah, the only thing for certain is uncertainty
You gotta hold on tight, just enjoy the ride
Get used to all this unpredictability, sounds like life
Man, I know its tough but you gotta suck it up
To hear you talk youre caught up in some tragedy
Sounds like life to me (sounds like life to me)
Sounds like life

---

That has a little whiskey in it too. Then there is this one ...

Quote:

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Craig Morgan - This Ain't Nothin LYRICS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v3ujcbEKeE[/video]]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v3ujcbEKeE

He was standing in the rubble of an old farmhouse outside Birmingham
When some on the scene reporter stuck a camera in the face of that old man
He said "tell the folks please mister, what are you gonna do
Now that this twister has taken all that's there to you"
The old man just smiled and said "boy let me tell you something, this ain't nothing"

He said I lost my daddy, when I was eight years old,
That cave-in at the Kincaid mine left a big old hole,
And I lost my baby brother, my best friend and my left hand
In a no win situation in a place called Vietnam
And last year I watched my loving wife, of fifty years waste away and die
And I held her hand til her heart of gold stopped pumping,
So this ain't nothin'

He said I learned at an early age,
There's things that matter and there's things that don't
So if you're waiting here for me to cry,
I hate to disappoint you boy, but I won't

Then he reached down in the rubble and picked up a photograph
Wiped the dirt off of it with the hand that he still had
He put it to his lips and said man she was something
But this ain't nothin'

He said I lost my daddy, when I was eight years old,
That cave-in at the Kincaid mine left a big old hole,
And I lost my baby brother, my best friend and my left hand
In a no win situation in a place called Vietnam
And last year I watched my loving wife, of fifty years waste away and die
We were holding hands when her heart of gold stopped pumping
So this ain't nothin'

This ain't nothin' time won't erase
And this ain't nothin' money can't replace
He said you sit and watch your loving wife fifty years fighting for her life
Then you hold her hand til her heart of gold stops pumping
Yeah boy that's something,
So this ain't nothin'
Yeah this ain't nothin'

---

emptiness ... ain't nothin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

Well, I am not sure where "crying in one's beer" fits into the Precepts ... but nobody tops Hank Sr.

---

Yesterday I re-discovered this song and found it melancholic and all that.....but this morning can't think why.

When working through this relative world stuff- who is right and who is wrong?
People having to sit outside the monastery gates for days before even spoken too in older times. Was that necessary? Perhaps it was for the way of training at that temple. In that case it might be seen as a skilful means.
Today though we are different. Interdependence means that we all come from our cultures and modernity just like the Buddha's teachings didn't arrive from nowhere but came out of the interplay of Brahmanism and everything else that made him what he was.
So where do we go from that?
Firstly I think we have to take a pragmatic stand for our relative world lives. Is this useful, is the question? We might not have all the information to answer this but maybe we wont ever have that. Intentions - everyone here is trying to do their best, both 'teachers' and 'students'. That is a presupposition but its a useful one for peace, harmony and finding ways to solve problems.
As David Loy says the absolute deconstructs our sense of self and reconstructs it towards generosity, loving kindness and wisdom. If that is true we should speak without anger and blame as we progress. Skilful means.
We can also use this to be gentle with others when they are angry or reactive.
The proof of the pudding is the solution.
This doesn't contradict allowing everything as it is either of course, but we are involved - we cannot not influence others around us. Given that both action and inactions will have their effect choosing to base our involvement on skilful means and love, generosity and wisdom is the only way I personally see that we can move forwards.
The tradition has its reasons for sewing. We can engage with that or not. Those reasons look very sound to me. However there are other ways for other temperaments. Much of this seems to come from being attached to things- "you dont want to sew my way..OK..fine. These are the reasons behind this traditions sewing"..no more needs to be said..let it pass. On the other hand "I need more than you are willing to give but I'm not getting that..Ok..fine"..its passed.
And here's me interjecting my thoughts into this. I hope my speech comes across as loving/reconciliatory otherwise my words have no use. let it pass I need to go cook dinner.
Rich

Jundo,
First of all, thank you for such a...I can't really find a word
for it...beautiful?...enlightening?...humbling?...post . I
appologize to you for being such a moody shit lately. I don't
know what's wrong with me. I'm so touchy. Not just on this
forum. Maybe it's watching my Dad waste away daily and not
be able to do anything about it. Maybe it's watching my wife
cry as another month passes without a pregancy (we have been
to fertility clinics...no luck). Used to I could hide inside a bottle.
Now, I just sit here and take it. And you know what, sometimes
taking it sucks. I feel like Reality's Whore. Maybe its because I'm
trying to grow and the "old self" just won't let go. Maybe this is my "true
self," "Good Ol' Asshole Greg." I dunno. I think I need to lay
low for awhile. I am practicing. I am trying to keep my humor
about it. But I feel like I've ran up against a "self" I didn't know
existed. I'm not an arrogant person. Yet here I come across as
one. I'm not opinionated. Yet I am here on this forum. I'm not
as caring as I make myself out to be. Yet lately I pounce everyone
who doesn't seem to "live up" to my standard. I want to erase
every post I've made. I want to disappear and start over. I can't.
But please, please don't every start another post addressed to me
with the words, "I'm sorry." That floored me. You are my teacher.
I am nobody really. Just lucky to be here learning, and stupid
enough to speak when I should keep quiet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taigu

Ghop, you have, as we all do, a lot to unlearn...

---

Agreed. I made comments I shouldn't have made. Teach me! :oops:

gassho
Greg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ghop

Jundo,
First of all, thank you for such a...I can't really find a word
for it...beautiful?...enlightening?...humbling?...post . I
appologize to you for being such a moody shit lately. I don't
know what's wrong with me. I'm so touchy. Not just on this
forum. Maybe it's watching my Dad waste away daily and not
be able to do anything about it. Maybe it's watching my wife
cry as another month passes without a pregancy (we have been
to fertility clinics...no luck). Used to I could hide inside a bottle.
Now, I just sit here and take it. And you know what, sometimes
taking it sucks. I feel like Reality's Whore. Maybe its because I'm
trying to grow and the "old self" just won't let go. Maybe this is my "true
self," "Good Ol' Asshole Greg." I dunno. I think I need to lay
low for awhile. I am practicing. I am trying to keep my humor
about it. But I feel like I've ran up against a "self" I didn't know
existed. I'm not an arrogant person. Yet here I come across as
one. I'm not opinionated. Yet I am here on this forum. I'm not
as caring as I make myself out to be. Yet lately I pounce everyone
who doesn't seem to "live up" to my standard. I want to erase
every post I've made. I want to disappear and start over. I can't.
But please, please don't every start another post addressed to me
with the words, "I'm sorry." That floored me. You are my teacher.
I am nobody really. Just lucky to be here learning, and stupid
enough to speak when I should keep quiet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taigu

Ghop, you have, as we all do, a lot to unlearn...

---

Agreed. I made comments I shouldn't have made. Teach me! :oops:

gassho
Greg

---

This is where the traditional advice is ... JUST SIT!!

Lot of trashy junk in the mental trunk right now ... most not worth the paper its not written on.

JUST SIT and let all those thunder and lightening clouds pass.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jundo

Lot of trashy junk in the mental trunk right now ... most not worth the paper its not written on.

---

YES... I post not because I have a new piece of insight to add, but experience that backs up exactly this: Greg, you are suffering due to unquestioned beliefs. Letting go of these beliefs is very hard. Even though they are exactly what is making you suffer, you will kick and scream and fight to be able to hold on to them. I remember when I was mired in some very stuck beliefs. Chet kept pushing me to look at them, question them, drop them. And I fought the whole way... but some part of me... maybe a faint glimmer of bodhicitta... kept me looking, and questioning, and dropping. Have you ever tried Byron Katie's "Work"? Nothing fancy, just a few questions you can ask yourself that are complementary to the "just sitting" recommendation given by Jundo. Just about every line of your last post to this thread deserves a, er, "Working" over!

You shouldn't apologize or be embarrassed for putting your stuff out there. That's the bravery required to crash through these beliefs, to be willing to put them out in the daylight for others to see. They fester in the dim corners of our minds... and evaporate in the glare of the light.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ghop

And you know what, sometimes taking it sucks. I feel like Reality's Whore. Maybe its because I'm trying to grow and the "old self" just won't let go. Maybe this is my "true self," "Good Ol' Asshole Greg."

---

You are throwing a hell of a pity party, and it's not helping squat. This house too, has been touched by death. Stop looking for the magical seed that will make your house different from everyone else's. The First Noble Truth is the crux of the Buddhadharma. What did you expect?

None of what we think will make us happy, will make us happy. We think a relationship, or a child, or to be spared from loss, that these will make us happy... money... spiritual experiences... watching the sun rise and gleam off of an iceberg in the Arctic Circle... seeing a double rainbow... whatever... will make us happy. It never will. This is the central message of the Buddha.

You think you're unhappy because of your circumstances. But you're really unhappy because of how you think. You focus on what's wrong instead of what's right, the child that's not there instead of the wife that is... look at all the Treeleafers who have found joy and gratitude in becoming parents through adoption.

Life really is what you make it... and if it's shit, it's because you're making it shit.

None of us ever likes to hear that... Lord Buddha knows I didn't, and still don't... but it's the truth.

Ajahn Brahm has a book called "Who Ordered This Truckload of Dung?" The title references our typical reaction to the crap situations we find ourselves in. And it also poses a question we usually answer incorrectly. Because the correct answer is: me. I ordered this truckload of dung. I ordered it delivered right to my goddamned doorstep, because I love it. I love to wallow in crap, but don't ever realize that's what I'm doing.

This sort of thinking you have on display here goes hand in hand with the cycle of depression and drinking. We can get ourselves quite worked up with a deliciously tragic and melancholy story. It's this madness that is from whence many great novels and songs have been born (do you have any creative outlets right now?). You can continue to indulge in this thinking, which is like a drug unto itself, or you can pour it down the drain... and pour your precious life energy into something else instead, like sweeping, or sewing, or hugging your wife.

I especially like one of Byron Katie's turnarounds, where you take some declarative statement of belief you have going on and replace the subject of the sentence with "My thinking." As in, turning "I am miserable" around into "My thinking is miserable." Or turning "I'm an asshole" into "My thoughts are assholes." Quit letting these asshole thoughts beat up on you, and sit, sweep, breathe...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jundo

This is where the traditional advice is ... JUST SIT!!

Lot of trashy junk in the mental trunk right now ... most not worth the paper its not written on.

JUST SIT and let all those thunder and lightening clouds pass.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stephanie

Life really is what you make it... and if it's shit, it's because you're making it shit.

---

Humbly, I bow...and sit. Thanks guys.

Greg

"How long does it take a man to learn that he does not, cannot want what he 'wants'? You have to be in Hell to see Heaven. Glimpses from the Land of the Dead. Flashes of serene timeless joy, a joy as old as suffering and despair."

-William S. Burroughs.

I often forget that my thoughts aren't true and pain inevitably follows. It takes me some time sometimes (LOL! Word-play!), but the pain eventually reminds me.

Chet