I had liked a page on Facebook entitled "Buddhism" and today I saw this discussion taking place about this particular picture and video.Attachment 1576
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7Ge7Sogrk
what followed was quite shocking to me and I would like to hear some thoughts from all here. I removed the names of the people, and the one writing as Buddhism is the admin of that page.
Here was the original post made on the picture of the elephant painting the picture of its self d what and what followed....Sorry for the length. But it get interesting.
BUDDHISM: This is fake!!! An elephant, monkey, crow, octopus,, donkey or porpoise can not paint a likeness of itself. Why is that? They can hold and manipulate the brushes. A human mind is different, this difference is why human realm is the only springboard to enlightenment. Your cat is not a Buddha. May you grasp this distinction and achieve nirvana
PERSON: Animals could be a Buddha manifesting to help us in some capacity. Yes generally they can't achieve enlightenment in animal form. Also animals painting pictures can be real, but doesn't mean they'll paint their way to Nirvana.
PERSON:This is not fake, I've seen the video
BUDDHISM: If you have a link toa video of an animal painting a likeness of another animal, or a house, whatever besides paint blobs then please link it here
BUDDHISM:the Buddha taught realms, so if you are inventing some other theory then it is not Buddhism. There is an animal realm, it is part of Buddhism. Accuse me of making something up? if you disagree then you are inventing your own religion loosely based on Buddhism and it is you yourself that is creating a false dharma.
PERSON: Claiming the human mind is different than those of animals and the only one capable of enlightenment is pure arrogance. May you realize this and achieve true enlightenment.
PERSON: Look it up, you have the internet at your disposal. All questions are correct, as well they are all wrong. It all depends on who is answering the question, or asking.. Animals see the world, so if they had the means to illustrate what they see in the world, why would they not.
BUDDHISM: I am surprised of the deep level of arrogance of these commenters when confronted with the dharma. maybe it is time for you to grow up and bow to the Buddha's teachings and let go of your goofy beliefs.
BUDDHISM: Vipaka Sutta "Monks, the taking of life -- when indulged in, developed, and pursued -- is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from the taking of life is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to a short life span.
"Stealing -- when indulged in, developed, and pursued -- is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from stealing is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to the loss of one's wealth. http://buddhasutra.com/files/vipaka_sutta.htm
Buddhist Sutra - Vipaka Sutta
PERSON: Yikes. This page just went down several notches for me. There is absolutely nothing enlightened about assuming you have any ontological authority about another living being and the quality of its consciousness. And it is certainly rude and childish to use judgmental words like "grow up" and "goofy" to describe those whose minds are clearly more open than yours.
PERSON: I don't think it is the likers of the page that are arrogant.
PERSON: it's just an elephant painting a picture. it has no meaning beyond that except for what we assign to it. Animals recognize themselves all the time. some birds can recognize themselves and other birds in reflections and pictures. Some monkeys can recognize themselves in reflection. this isn't new. The elephant has the patience and ability, at least these 2, to paint what they've seen. Until we speak elephant, or they draw nirvana, I wouldn't go thinking anything beyond "it's nice picture by an elephant". challenged beliefs do not make a threatened reality.
BUDDHISM: The page is titled Buddhism and it is our job to tell you what the Buddhist beliefs are. if you want to believe something else and think you know better than the Buddha then that is on you. i am here to tell you what the Buddhist views are, if you think otherwise then that is on you.
PERSON: I've seen the elephants painting just like on the photo. Ofcourse they're trained to do so. So stating that it's fake goes a bit far.
In my opinion it shows how intelligent these animals are and therefor have a good chance to generate positive karma .
PERSON: quite unlike Buddha for such negativity towards life.
BUDDHISM: as you say you are unliking the page then I am banning you and erasing your comments so just to let you know. I want you to carry through with the banishment. There are too many people in this group maybe you don;t belong here? whatever. The job is to confront your belief system if it is contrary to the teachings. that is the mission here to improve your view out of ignorance. I know there is much ignorance on this topic so we are addressing that. if you want to stand up and take a bullet fopr your beliefs then martyr yourself. the buddha taught realms. The Buddha said in the animal realm you can not achieve enlightenment.
PERSON: Disappointing reaction to what should have been a more understanding explanation from someone representing and sharing this religion... Lost a lot of followers hopefully they are only leaving your page and not holding your behavior against the teachings of this religion.
PERSON: Humans are animals...
BUDDHISM:It is a a different style of teaching that many need to experience here. i am not holding your hand .After death you will be confronted by peaceful and wrathful manifestations both are equally valid. if you crumble like a little precious flower, then i am helping you toughen up
PERSON:Buddhism is all about choice .Forcing choice and limits on others is nothing to do with it.
Tolerance and understanding my friend should be your penance and procedure to further understand those trying to also share enlightenment.
PERSON: "There are many hundreds of paths up the mountain all leading in the same direction, so it doesn't matter which path you take . The only one wasting time is. The one who runs around telling everyone that his or her path is wrong " .
PERSON: Admin, I think it is you who needs the teaching. You sound like the kind of student who has memorized all the books but hasn't learned anything.
BUDDHISM: If i take the time to find the sutras that talk of the animal realm, THE IGNORANCE REALM OF ANIMALS will that even make a difference in your false view?
PERSON: No,my friend. Because using quatrains to justify intolerance and abhor enlightenment is not the way. All must seek it on their own path ,including you without being overlord about it.
PERSON: Human's are animals Fact
PERSON:Fundamentalism at it best. Rejecting clear evidence of an animal painting because one rather hold on to a belief. Attaching one self to even a Buddhist Doctrine is not helping yourself or anyone. Buddhism is not about proving that one view is correct or not. Its about seeing into the nature of suffering. Realizing its cause, and freeing oneself and others from it.
BUDDHISM: I am sorry but what i see here is a bunch of kooky new agers who refuse to understand that the Buddha taught the importance of the human realm. If you want to make that less special because you love all the animals and have personified them well then you need to snap out of it. ,you can throw a hissy fit but the truth is unmoving despite your display. That is the wrathful aspect, it is unmoved, you can not move the truth. Animal realm is one of ignorance of the true nature of reality, your cat is not a Buddha. a cow is not going to achieve enlightenment in that form
PERSON:Admin, you are both experiencing suffering and causing it.
PERSON: This is no longer about the original post. It is about your reaction to the posts. It isnt a good example of buddhism.
PERSON:May I ask what sect you follow? Many western Buddhist teachers are agnostic about mechanical karma, rebirth, Buddhas living in the sky etc and transmit this to their students. It's not new age, but rather just Western Buddhism in general. Moreover, you gotta remember that Zen Buddhism is the most popular form of Buddhism in the west... and in the Zen I follow, if you drop notions of both self and other then you will awake to the fact that the Buddha you so very dearly cling to is not worth more than soiled toilet paper, and toilet paper just as meritorious as all the merits accumulated by all Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. All things, elephants, rocks, grass, smith machines, pens are complete Buddhas.
PERSON:I thought I made myself clear You're just clinging to a hope that the thoughts you borrowed are true but you don't seem to have considered any argument we shared here.
Perhaps Buddha didin't spend enough time with animals so to teach that animals don't suffer because their mind interfiles with their reality animals do exactly what every zen monk would consider a profound mastery
are they enlightened? I don't know but I'm sure they have a far higher level of consciousness compared to an ordinary man you don't need much experience with animals to see this
BUDDHISM: I am believing the Buddha;s explanation of reality. In that view an animal can not achieve nirvana in that form,, it would have to die before achieving nirvana. that form of mental solidity can not achieve the mental capacity of freedom, it can not become a Buddha. An animal has no way to THINK itself out of it's delusions....a human can consider options beyond an anima;'s capacity to comprehend.
BUDDHISM: If Western ZEN is teaching the nonsense you spout then it is a cult and needs to be eradicated as false dharma.
PERSON:By the way, this picture you posted is real. It was done by Annabelle the Elephant in Anchorage, Alaska in the years prior to her death. The paintings were not faked. Please do more research before taking such a haughty attitude. It's unbecoming and disappointing of a person following the ways of Buddha, as is the ego being displayed in your arguing.
BUDDHISM: For every 100 readers who runs away from this group because of this post then there is one who gets it-that advances the dharma. the others were not ready to humble themselves to the Buddha's truth over their own personal opinion. They will never progress much, it is worth it to advance the one that can get it and has the possibility of becoming a stream winner
PERSON:Admin, I think the problem we're having is that you seem very scripturally based. You take everything you read as truth, am I right? Whereas some of us are more spiritually Buddhist type. We get the essential purpose and case less about what people have written in books, instead following our heart. it is YOU who needs the humility. Truly. I bow before animals, I do not bow before those who encourage me to judge them as inferior.
PERSON: every sentient being has a Buddha nature, so whoever wrote this is not even a good Buddhist student
BUDDHISM: I am not bowing down before an animal . LOL that is silly. i certainly hope you do not worship animals. you can if you want to, but please don;t call it Buddhism...
PERSON: say that animal nature is same as human is not correct. Tho say it is different IS NOT correct. Or as it is put in Sandokai: "To encounter the absolute is not yet enlightenment.
Each and all, the subjective and objective spheres are related,
and at the same time, independent.
Related, yet working differently, though each keeps its own place.
Form makes the character and appearance different" After all it is out of the point to wander this path, because point does not exist, while path does, don't you think so?
BUDDHISM: I see you are a product of Western Zen self-study course. Your views are going into the nihilism with "it is all relative" . no, there is an actual anchor of truth and everything else is delusion to varying degrees. you are committing also the fallacy of seeing all things like rocks and trees as being consciousness. These are not beings, they are scenery
(I am stopping here....as it goes on.)
thoughts?
