SPLIT TOPIC: Or I'll Eat My Zafu!

SPLIT TOPIC FROM THE FIRE THREAD:
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...10182-The-fire

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Originally Posted by Jundo

PS - Chet, almost every Zen Master of old, from Bodhidharma to Huineng to Dogen to Honzhi to Hakuin to everyone in between spoke of "True Self/small self, True Face, Dharmakhaya, Relative/Absolute, Mu, Emptiness, Shobogenzo, Big 'B' Buddha, Mirror Mind, Capital "M" Mind etc. etc." ... although each as "fingers pointing to the moon" (the "moon", by the way, yet another metaphorical finger pointing at the moon of Enlightenment"). This has to be unpierced, realized (made real in living) through sitting and all Practice.

However, though "fingers pointing at the moon", that does not take away that the central point of their teachings of Zen Practice was not ... to a man ... anything but the need to realize (grock and bring to life) and and break free of the self/other, the Relative/Absolute. Sorry, find me someone through the centuries who taught something else in the classic literature. I will eat my Zafu on toast. Even Dogen was about that through his jazzed up, vibrant vision of how the relative and absolute interpenetrate and totally exert as each other. No exceptions, and the only thing the Soto and Rinzai folks (and other Mahayana Buddhists) really disagree on is the specific methods to do so.

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I would actually like to try to test this bold assertion by me. I'd like to ask two or three of our members (first come first served) to each name any old Zen Ancestor from China or Korea or Japan, Soto or Rinzai, and a totally random book page number. No preparations for this, neither of us check in advance. I will than go to a collection of their writings (not a book about them, but first hand writings) and see whether on that page or somewhere very close by (in case that page is the footnotes or something) they are talking about relative/absolute and getting to "True Self" (not just our small, ignorant little self) or one of its poetic expressions above.

If not, I am prepared to eat my Zafu stuffing. :)

http://www.zafulandia.com/includes/t...ua/relleno.jpg

Attachment 612


Sorry.. couldn't resist. [drool]

Gassho.

Is Homer Simpson Roshi your suggested venerable old Zen Ancestor?

http://quackademiology.com/wp-conten...ddha_Homer.jpg

That may be, but an Enso is a donut ...

http://thn2.iwiw.net/0202/user/00/94...984758_profile

Are you saying there is a 'True Self'?

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

Are you saying there is a 'True Self'?

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Yes. As much as there is a Homer Simpson.

Gassho, J

Attachment 613

Ok, I don't know if this will work or not, because it is from a collection or writings. I used the book "zen flesh zen bones; a collection of zen and pre-zen writings" I turned to page 121 randomly. It is case 5. Kyogen Mounts the tree.

If that doesn't count, I have "zen mind, beginner's mind" and I turned to page 42.

If that doesn't work then I'm pretty much out of books by zen masters and we will have to resort to using science textbooks and military history books.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

Yes. As much as there is a Homer Simpson.

Gassho, J

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:D

Chet

I just posted this on the "fire" thread ... but it belongs here too. Why I am doing this?

I wrote to Willow, who is dealing with a sick mother know ... and is a little distracted from a seeming "philosophical discussion"

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Hi Willow,

I just want to drop in that these issues may seem like a "philosophical discussion", but truly they go to the heart of Zen and all Mahayana Buddhism. All the Koans, the Zazen, the Mahayana Sutras, the writings by the great Teachers ... truly all arise from and center on this. Sometimes this fact may be lost on folks who believe that "Zen" is beyond and rejects all "ideas, views and doctrines" ... and thus has not ideas, views and doctrines. But such is not the case.

Rather, when folks of old said that "Zen" is beyond all "ideas, views and doctrines" they meant (itself a kind of doctrine) that the Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha (which we are discussing) is beyond and holds undividedly all divisions, all "ideas, views and doctrines". So, the best way to approach and realize the Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha is thus to sit in Zazen (Shikantaza, work with Koans and the like) dropping all ideas, views and doctrines. Thereby our little self, with all its little ideas and views ... comes to embody that which is beyond (yet spawns) all divisions, ideas and views.

Why is that important? Why did perhaps every single Zen teacher of old that I know spend so much time and effort to Teach just this? Is it just philosophy and a waste of time compared to your now dealing with your old mother, who is very sick, or other matters in life?

I would answer by saying that this Teaching is,　in fact, one of the greatest gifts to someone who is dealing with sickness, old age, life and death and all human problems. It is not merely a "philosophical debate" because, when one has truly unpierced this Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha that all the old teachers spoke about, one learns that sickness, old age, life and death, the broken heart and struggle you are dealing with ... is not just that. Further, it is not merely to be understood on an intellectual level, but rather right in our bones through this Zen Practice.

I hope that is clear. Freedom, Wisdom, Compassion arise here ... when we can live this "No Doctrine Doctrine".

Gassho, J

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catfish

Ok, I don't know if this will work or not, because it is from a collection or writings. I used the book "zen flesh zen bones; a collection of zen and pre-zen writings" I turned to page 121 randomly. It is case 5. Kyogen Mounts the tree.

If that doesn't count, I have "zen mind, beginner's mind" and I turned to page 42.

If that doesn't work then I'm pretty much out of books by zen masters and we will have to resort to using science textbooks and military history books.

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Hi Catfish,

I meant more that someone should say "Ta Hui p 85" or "Hui Neng p 23" ... but we are short on volunteers, so this will do.

Both the sections happen to be about actually getting past a one sided, or merely intellectual understanding of these things, and living them.

In Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, page 42, Suzuki Roshi is discussing duality and the non-dualistic relationship of form (including our small self) and emptiness/Buddha nature, and how our inherent "Buddha nature" is not an escape from the need to practice, and how "emptiness" is not to escape from the beauty and ugliness of life in Samsara. They are not two.

When you say “Whatever I do is Buddha nature, so it doesn’t matter what I do, and there is no need to practice zazen,” that is already a dualistic understanding of our everyday life… As long as you are concerned about what you do, that is dualistic. ...

... [A couple of paragraphs later] “When you suffer from an illness like cancer, and you realize you cannot live more than two or three years, then seeking something upon which to rely, you may start practice ... start the practice of zazen. His practice will be concentrated on obtaining emptiness of mind. That means he is trying to be free from the suffering of duality. This is the practice of “form is emptiness and emptiness is form.” Because of the truth of emptiness, he wants to have the actual realization of it in his life. If he practices in this way, believing and making an effort, it will help him, of course, but it is not perfect practice.

Knowing that your life is short, to enjoy it day after day, moment after moment, is the life of “form is form and emptiness is emptiness.” When Buddha comes, you will welcome him; when the devil comes, you will welcome him.

The Koan about Kyogen is a bit more obscure (being a Koan) and hard to show directly. A man is hanging from a cliff by his teeth, and is asked why "Bodhidharma came to China" (itself another famous Koan). Seemingly, if he opens his mouth to answer, he falls and dies. However, Mumon's comment is something like "if he truly answers, he escapes life and death into True Life, and if he keeps his mouth shut he won't understand for countless small reborn lives". Harder to see, but again about the our relationship to the True Face/Life beyond life and death. Also, you have to really pierce this in the guts ... not just have an intellectual understanding. Notice also the reference at the end to "ego killing poison", which actually praises this good poison that "kills the small self" (ego).

Next? More names please!

Gassho, J

Hello,

Bodhidharma pp. 108

Metta and Gassho,

Saijun

Hi Jundo

How about...

Ikkyu pg 78
Eisai pg 142

Good Luck!


Gassho

Daido

PS. I dont know if this applies but how about Ryokan pg 10

Don't know if there's any books from these, just random :

Ko-Bong Gyeong-Uk page 77
Lin-chi I-hsuan page 37
Buddhamitra page 10

:-)

Keizan 42

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Originally Posted by Saijun

Hello,

Bodhidharma pp. 108

Metta and Gassho,

Saijun

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Now we are cooking!

From the "Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma", translations by Red Pine, page 108-9 in the "Breakthrough Sermon" (probably, by the way, not actually historically written by "Bodhidharma" in fact ... but written by some other old Zen guy way back, and cherished since that time ... so good enough for our purposes! ;) )

Our true buddha-nature has no shape. And the dust of affliction has no form. How can people use ordinary water to wash an intangible body? ... From this you should realize that washing something external isn't what the Buddha meant.


Ikkyu pg 78
Eisai pg 142

There is not a lot by Eisai to have a "pg 142", but I will quote the start of his Kōzen Gokokuron ...

Great indeed is the Mind! Heaven’s height is immeasurable, but Mind rises above Heaven; the earth’s depth is also unfathomable, but Mind reaches below the earth. The light of the sun and moon cannot be outdistanced, yet Mind passes beyond the light of the sun and moon. The universe is limitless, yet Mind travels beyond the universe. Though referred to as Space, or the Primal Energy that gives rise to myriad existence, it is Mind that encompasses Space and generates Primal Energy. Because of it, the sky shelters from above and the earth supports from below. Because of it, the sun and moon rotate, the four seasons change, and all things are generated. Great indeed is Mind!

When I googled "Ikkyu poem 78" I found this: Ikkyu was often writing about sex as much as emptiness (also not two, by the way) ... but I did find this, his poem on the heart sutra ... clear dew drops appearing red ... .

Void in form
When, just as they are,
Clear dewdrops gather,
On scarlet maple leaves,
Regard the scarlet beads!

Ko-Bong Gyeong-Uk page 77
Lin-chi I-hsuan page 37
Buddhamitra page 10

I could not find a book by Ko-Bong Gyeong-Uk (a Korean teacher whom I had never heard of before, by the way), but there is this talk by him ...

All great Zen Masters teach the whole world about one point. But this one point cannot be seen or heard, and it has no name and no form, so opening their mouths is already a big mistake. How can you make these great Zen Masters' teaching correct? If you want to do that, don't check good and bad, don't hold life and death, and put down your opinion and condition. Only go straight through the raging fires and attain no form, no emptiness. Then you will wake up to the wooden chicken's crowing." Holding up his stick, he asked, "Do you see?" Then, hitting it on the table, "Do you hear?" He paused for a second, and then asked, "Did you find your original face? How many eyes are there?"
After a moment of silence he shouted,"KATZ!"
Then he said, "LOOK!"

Book of Rinzai (Lin-chi) page 37 ...

[You should realize] that the four elements (fire, air, water, earth, that traditionally were said to make all the "matter" of the universe) are like a dream, like a fantasy. Followers of the Way, the one who is right now listening to my talk is not made of the four elements, but is using these four elements. When your understanding reaches this level, you are free to go and stay.

For Buddhamitra, all I could find was the section for the Transmission of the Light, when he was awakened upon hearing ...

And this is what the Mind of Buddhas is. If you search externally for a Buddha with form, He will not resemble you. If you want to know your intrinsic Mind, You are neither one with it nor separate.

and

One day, the Venerable [Buddhamitra] was reciting a sutra and he expounded on the birthless [nature of all things]

Keep em' coming! :encouragement:

Gassho, J

Per Dosho ... Keizan p. 42 (also from Transmission of the Light, actually quoting and commenting on Zen Patriarch Shanavasa) ...

"What kind of thing is the original unborn nature of all things?" Ananda pointed to a corner of Savanavasa'srobe. Again, he asked, "What kind of thing is the original nature of the Buddhas awakening?" Ananda then grasped a corner of Sanavasa's robe and pulled it. At that time, Sanavasa was greatly awakened.


Keizan comments ...

As a result of not penetrating this principle ... you will not only lose your human body, but you will not realize that the [human body] is the expression of the Self.

Any more?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

I just posted this on the "fire" thread ... but it belongs here too. Why I am doing this?

I wrote to Willow, who is dealing with a sick mother know ... and is a little distracted from a seeming "philosophical discussion"

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Hi Willow,

I just want to drop in that these issues may seem like a "philosophical discussion", but truly they go to the heart of Zen and all Mahayana Buddhism. All the Koans, the Zazen, the Mahayana Sutras, the writings by the great Teachers ... truly all arise from and center on this. Sometimes this fact may be lost on folks who believe that "Zen" is beyond and rejects all "ideas, views and doctrines" ... and thus has not ideas, views and doctrines. But such is not the case.

Rather, when folks of old said that "Zen" is beyond all "ideas, views and doctrines" they meant (itself a kind of doctrine) that the Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha (which we are discussing) is beyond all divisions, all "ideas, views and doctrines". So, the best way to approach and realize the Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha is thus to sit in Zazen ( Shikantaza, work with Koans and the like) dropping all ideas, views and doctrines. Thereby our little self, with all its little ideas and views ... comes to embody that which is beyond (yet spawns) all divisions, ideas and views.

Why is that important? Why did perhaps every single Zen teacher of old that I know spend so much time and effort to Teach just this? Is it just philosophy and a waste of time compared to your now dealing with your old mother, who is very sick, or other matters in life?

I would answer by saying that this Teaching is,　in fact, one of the greatest gifts to someone who is dealing with sickness, old age, life and death and all human problems. It is not merely a "philosophical debate" because, when one has truly unpierced this Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha that all the old teachers spoke about, one learns that sickness, old age, life and death, the broken heart and struggle you are dealing with ... is not just that. Further, it is not merely to be understood on an intellectual level, but rather right in our bones through this Zen Practice.

I hope that is clear. Freedom, Wisdom, Compassion arise here ... when we can live this "No Doctrine Doctrine".

Gassho, J

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Jundo - I've replied to this on the other thread but I will try again here.

Maybe I am completely distracted, confused just now because I'm deep, down tired - but I feel you haven't understood where I was coming from. I will read this thread when I've got better concentration - I don't see the teaching here as empty philosophy - never have. I understand you have an important point you need to make - a nexus of teaching that it is important for us to grasp and live out in our lives.

I was simply suggesting - perhaps not with much clarity - that the postings seemed to have become of a very personal nature - and as any group mirrors a family in its dynamics 'something' seemed to be playing out that wasn't all that focussed on teachings as such.

I'm not all that easy round conflict and perhaps was looking to find a way to heal 'something' - or at least express an acknowledge that a need for healing was in there somewhere. It's why I noted back to Richard's post because he had picked up on this.



Anyway - that's not what this thread is about so I'll go back to my comotose state and re-join when I've got something worthwhile to contribute.


Gassho



Willow

Hi Willow,

Yes, nothing like that intended at all. Get some rest, dear Willow, because life is hard for you now.

Gassho, J

Layman P'ang
p.46

Seung Sahn Sunim page 59

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Originally Posted by Seiryu

Layman P'ang
p.46

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Ah, from the Ruth Sasaki translation. The "10,000 dharmas" is a standard expressions that represents all the "separate things" of the Samsaric world. I would say that the "covering the mouth" represents that tasted beyond the words, categories and ideas.

The layman ... asked the Master: "Who is the man who does not accompany [is unbound by] the ten thousand dharmas?"

The [Master] covered the Layman's mouth with his hand. In a flash,[the Layman] realized.

Keep em coming.

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Originally Posted by Kaishin

Seung Sahn Sunim page 59

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My online copy of Dropping Ashes on the Buddha, page 59 .... ... how the mind and thoughts make the divided ugliness of life ... a bloody little story ...

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One evening, as he was crossing the desert, [a monk name Won Hyo] stopped at a small patch of green, where there were a few trees and some water, and went to sleep. Toward midnight he woke up, very thirsty. It was pitch-dark. He groped along on all fours, searching for water. At last his hand touched a cup on the ground. He picked it up and drank. Ah, how delicious! Then he bowed deeply, in gratitude to Buddha for the gift of water. The next morning, Won Hyo woke up and saw beside him what he had taken for a cup. It was a shattered skull, blood-caked and with shreds of flesh still stuck to the cheek bones. Strange insects crawled or floated on the surface of the filthy rain-water inside it. Won Hyo looked at the skull and felt a great wave of nausea. He opened his mouth. As soon as the vomit poured out, his mind opened and he understood. Last night, since he hadn't seen and hadn't thought, the water was delicious. This morning, seeing and thinking had made him vomit. Ah, he said to himself, thinking makes good and bad, life and death. It creates the whole universe. It is the universal master. And without thinking, there is no universe, no Buddha, no Dharma. All is one, and this one is empty.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

I just want to drop in that these issues may seem like a "philosophical discussion", but truly they go to the heart of Zen and all Mahayana Buddhism. All the Koans, the Zazen, the Mahayana Sutras, the writings by the great Teachers ... truly all arise from and center on this. Sometimes this fact may be lost on folks who believe that "Zen" is beyond and rejects all "ideas, views and doctrines" ... and thus has not ideas, views and doctrines. But such is not the case.

Rather, when folks of old said that "Zen" is beyond all "ideas, views and doctrines" they meant (itself a kind of doctrine) that the Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha (which we are discussing) is beyond all divisions, all "ideas, views and doctrines". So, the best way to approach and realize the Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha is thus to sit in Zazen ( Shikantaza, work with Koans and the like) dropping all ideas, views and doctrines. Thereby our little self, with all its little ideas and views ... comes to embody that which is beyond (yet spawns) all divisions, ideas and views.


Gassho, J

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Hi Jundo.

When is talk of "True Self" unskillful? ..... and for that matter when is talk of No-Self" unskillful?

Gassho, kojip.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kojip

Hi Jundo.

When is talk of "True Self" unskillful? ..... and for that matter when is talk of No-Self" unskillful?

Gassho, kojip.

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Hi Kojip,

I would say they are unskillful when either is reified (turned into an image as a frozen, concrete 'thing' standing apart from us) rather than as the most intimate living in our bones (a bit like talking about "art" or "painting" in one's armchair without truly expressing and experiencing the making and living of the creating). These images are helpful tools ... but don't cling to them, and please throw them away in the actual doing.

"True Self" and "No Self" are, in Mahayana Buddhism, really two ways of describing the same reality, poetic images looking two ways at the same no sided coin. Don't think that "No Self" (meaning that "you" and all things don't truly have the fixed, abiding self that you think you and they have) thus means that there is nothing but nothing ... a nihilistic "hole". Rather, "emptiness is not empty, the void is not void" ... and there is a "Holy Wholly Whole". On the other "sound of one hand" hand :p, don't think of the "True Self" as some solid, concrete separate thing that you should search for "out there someplace" ... cause it is as close and intimate as your own eye itself, out there and in here beyond all "in vs. out", which is precisely the Buddha's Eye seeing.

Now, truly piercing this "True Self/No Self" (or it's other images such as "Emptiness", "Mind", Big "B" Buddha etc.) is necessary for this Practice, getting us out of the traps of our small, narrow, angry, greedy, aversion-filled, self-absorbed, personal soap opera loving, fearful "small self". That's because the "True Self/No Self" is free of anything missing, anyone to be angry at, anything to fear etc. However, notice how most Zen Teachers say that such realization and piercing of "True Self/No Self" is needed, but not the final train stop (only the start of training!) ... and the real trick is then to figure out how to integrate this "True Self/No Self" back here living in this messy Samsaric, small self, "mountains are mountains again" world ... the "return to the marketplace". That's the really tricky part, the constant "practice" in life right here to fit these views smoothly together ... a view of "nothing to lack" in a life that sometimes sucks eggs! We need to realize "Emptiness/Buddha/True Face" etc., but cannot run to or try to stay there one-sidedly. So, for example, Suzuki Roshi says in the quote above, trying to wrestle with how to integrate all this ...

When you say “Whatever I do is Buddha nature, so it doesn’t matter what I do, and there is no need to practice zazen,” that is already a dualistic understanding of our everyday life ...

... [practice] concentrated on obtaining emptiness of mind ...is trying to be free from the suffering of duality. This is the practice of “form is emptiness and emptiness is form.” ... it is not perfect practice.

... moment after moment, is the life of “form is form and emptiness is emptiness.” When Buddha comes, you will welcome him; when the devil comes, you will welcome him.

Sorry for all the words, but this is important. gassho2

Gassho, J

PS -

Shoot a few more names and pages this way.

Here's some more

Mazu p28

Shitou p99

Dongshan p105

Deshan p33

Yunmen p191

That should keep you busy :)

Hello,

Tendo Nyojo 44.

Metta and Gassho,

Saijun

Oooh... this is exciting. *TV announcer voice-over:* Who will get Jundo to eat zazu stuffing? Will we ever get to hear a description of the taste of zafu stuffing? The challenge continues... Stay tuned, and don't press that remote control button. [twisted]

EDIT: Sorry, just couldn't resist. I haven't read a lot of books on Zen so I can't think of anything.

gassho1
Raf

Oh boy! Quite a few folks there! [scared]

I could not find a book with solely writings from those folks on the pages indicated, so I came as close as I can.

So I will take the 2nd and 8th quotes (and I'll toss in a bit of the 7th) from Mazu by Thomas Cleary ...

The founders of Zen said that one's own essence is inherently complete. Just don't linger over good or bad things - that is called practice of the Way. To grasp the good and reject the bad, to contemplate emptiness and enter concentration, is all in the province of contrivance - and if you go on seeking externals, you get further and further estranged. Just end the mental objectivization of the world. A single thought of the wandering mind is the root of birth and death in the world. Just don't have a single thought and you'll get rid of the root of birth and death.

The Dharmakaya is infinite; its substance neither waxes nor wanes. It can be vast or minute, angled or smooth; it manifests images in accordance with things and beings, like the moon reflected in a pool. Its function gushes forth yet does not take root; it never exhausts deliberate action nor does it dwell in inaction.

The true Suchness of mind is like a mirror reflecting forms: the mind is like the mirror, and phenomena are like the (reflected) forms. If the mind grasps at phenomena, then it involves itself in external conditions & causes; this is what 'the birth and death of mind' means. If it no longer grasps at such phenomena, this is what 'the true Suchness of mind' means.

Shitou's most famous writing attributed to him is the Sandokai (the Harmony/Identity of the Relative and Absolute ... the title alone should be enough). Andy Ferguson has also this ...

Zen Master Shitou entered the hall and addressed the monks, saying ...“'Buddha mind,’ ‘all beings,’ ‘wisdom,’ and ‘defilement’ - the names of these things are different, but actually they are one body. You should each recognize your miraculous mind. Its essence is apart from temporary or everlasting. Its nature is without pollution or purity. It is clear and perfect. Common people and sages are the same. The mind reaches everywhere without limit. It is not constrained by the limits of consciousness. The three realms and six realms manifest from this mind. If this mind is like the moon reflected on water, where can there be creation and destruction? If you can comprehend this, then there is nothing that you lack.


Dongshan is the attributed author of the Song of Precious Mirror Samadhi (Tanahashi translation), which begins ...

The teaching of suchness, is given directly, through all buddha ancestors,
Now that it's yours, keep it well.
A serving of snow in a silver bowl, or herons concealed in the glare of the moon
Apart, they seem similar, together, they're different.

Deshan is one of my personal favorites (beyond liking and disliking). His last living words were ...

Groping after what is empty and chasing echoes will only fatigue the mind and spirit.
Beyond awakening from a dream, and then going beyond this awakening, what remains?

He also has one of the most powerful Teachings of all time, right on point although perhaps a bit harder for unaccustomed eyes to see ...

Deshan entered the hall and addressed the monks, saying, "I don't hold to some view about the ancestors. Here, there are no ancestors and no buddhas. Bodhidharma is an old stinking foreigner. Shakyamuni is a dried piece of excrement. Manjushri and Samantabhadra are dung carriers. What is known as “realizing the mystery” is nothing but breaking through to grasp an ordinary persons life. 'Bodhi' and 'nirvana' are a donkey's tethering post. The twelve divisions of scriptural canon are devils' texts; just paper for wiping infected skin boils. The four fruitions and the three virtuous states, original mind and the ten stages, these are just graveyard-guarding ghosts. They'll never save you.

Yunmen, but from Page 193 ...

Every person originally has the radiant light—yet when it is looked at, it is not seen: dark and obscure. As long as the light has not yet broken through, there are two kinds of disease: 1. The first is seeing oneself facing objects and being left in the dark about everything. 2. The second consists in having been able to pierce through to the emptiness of all separate entities (dharmas)—yet there still is something that in a hidden way is like an object.

Tiantong Rujing on page 454-5 (Andy Ferguson) ...

Tiantong addressed them, saying, "The great way has no gate! It jumps off the heads of you Zen worthies who have assembled from every direction. Emptiness is without a path. It goes in and out of the nostrils of the host of Qingliang Temple."

...

Thoughts in the mind are confused and scattered. How can they be controlled? In the story about Zhaozhou and whether or not a dog has buddha nature, there is an iron broom named 'Wu' (Mu). If you use it to sweep thoughts, they just become more numerous. Then you frantically sweep harder, trying to get rid of even more thoughts. Day and night you sweep with all your might, furiously working away. All of a sudden, the broom breaks into vast emptiness, and you instantly penetrate the myriad differences and thousand variations of the universe.

Anyway ... if one truly is eaten by Emptiness ... the Zafu is ALREADY EATEN! :encouragement:gassho2

Gassho, J

Yes this is exciting ... boy Jundo, yours fingers must be sore by now. :eek:

Gassho
Michael

Jundo,

Heh! If you were really a Zen teacher, you'd kill a cat. All the cool teachers are doing it.

Chet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

Jundo,

Heh! If you were really a Zen teacher, you'd kill a cat. All the cool teachers are doing it.

Chet

---

Eating a Zafu is much more non-violent.

Anyway, as so many of the Old Great Teachers point out ... between their lecturing and talking about "True Self/small self, True Face, Dharmakhaya, Relative/Absolute, Mu, Emptiness, Shobogenzo, Big 'B' Buddha, Mirror Mind, Capital "M" Mind etc. " ...

... one had best also drop all ideas and images of some "True Self/small self, True Face, Dharmakhaya, Relative/Absolute, Mu, Emptiness, Shobogenzo, Big 'B' Buddha, Mirror Mind, Capital "M" Mind etc." ...

... thus to most immediately and Truly find "True Self/small self, True Face, Dharmakhaya, Relative/Absolute, Mu, Emptiness, Shobogenzo, Big 'B' Buddha, Mirror Mind, Capital "M" Mind etc. " ...

... a "True Self/small self, True Face, Dharmakhaya, Relative/Absolute, Mu, Emptiness, Shobogenzo, Big 'B' Buddha, Mirror Mind, Capital "M" Mind etc." living as ordinary folks, excrement, donkeys, enlightenment, delusion, dead cats and zafu stuffing.

Gassho, J

A monk asked, "Master, why do you say that Mind is Buddha?"
Mazu said, "To stop babies from crying."
The monk asked, "What do you say when they stop crying?"
Mazu said, "No Mind, no Buddha."
The monk asked, "Without using either of these teachings, how would you instruct someone?"
Mazu said, "I would say to him that it's not a thing."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

Tiantong addressed them, saying, "The great way has no gate! It jumps off the heads of you Zen worthies who have assembled from every direction. Emptiness is without a path. It goes in and out of the nostrils of the host of Qingliang Temple."

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Thoughts in the mind are confused and scattered. How can they be controlled? In the story about Zhaozhou and whether or not a dog has buddha nature, there is an iron broom named 'Wu' (Mu). If you use it to sweep thoughts, they just become more numerous. Then you frantically sweep harder, trying to get rid of even more thoughts. Day and night you sweep with all your might, furiously working away. All of a sudden, the broom breaks into vast emptiness, and you instantly penetrate the myriad differences and thousand variations of the universe.

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Hello Jundo,

This passage, in relation to Dogen's later writing, has always confused me. It seems like Nyojo is saying that meditating on Mu in the Kanna Zen style is permitted and encouraged in certain scenarios. Dogen, though, seems to be...less accepting of the practice. Could you clarify?

Metta and Gassho,

Saijun

Hi Saijun,

(I have written on this before elsewhere, so the following is a bit of cut and paste)

I think a clue is in the first line. The original Chinese is ...

心念紛飛す、如何んが手を措かん。趙州の狗子仏性無。只箇の無の字、鉄掃帚。掃う処紛飛多し

心念紛飛、如何措手、趙#子佛性無、只篚焦字.鉄掃掃.掃處紛飛多。紛飛多處掃。転捅転多。掃不得棄命掃。 昼夜堅起梁。勇猛切莫放街。忽然掃破太虚空。


I translate the first part as basically saying "when the thoughts are flying about like flying dust, what's useful? Zhaozhou's dog buddha-nature "mu"." So, the emphasis does seem on being a tool when the mind is all aflutter. Here is Thomas Cleary's version ...

"When thoughts are flying around your mind in confusion, what do you do?

We might get a clue to how this was interpreted by Rujing, Dogen and those who closely followed him in near generation by looking at, for example, Keizan (in his Zazen Yojinki), which is very specific on when to hold the "Mu" Koan during Zazen ... ONLY when one is having trouble to settle down ...

Quote:

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If your mind is disturbed [during Zazen], rest it on the tip of the nose or below the navel and count your inhaled and exhaled breath. If your mind still is not calm, take a Koan and concentrate on it. For example consider these non-taste the stories: "Who is this that comes before me?" (Hui-neng); "Does a dog have Buddha nature?" (Chao-chou); Yun men's Mt Sumeru and Chao-chou's oak tree in the garden. These are available applications. If your mind is still disturbed, sit and concentrate on the moment your breath has stopped and both eyes have closed forever, or on the unborn state in your mother's womb or before one thought arises. If you do this, the two Sunyatas (non-ego) will emerge, and the disturbed mind will be put at rests.

When you arise from meditation and unconsciously take action, that action is itself a Koan. Without entering into relation, when you accomplish practice and enlightenment, the Koan manifests itself. State before the creation of heaven and earth, condition of empty kalpa, and wondrous functions and most important thing of Buddhas and patriarchs - all these are one thing, zazen.

We must quit thinking dualistically and put a stop to our delusive mind, cool our passions, transcend moment and eternity, make our mind like cold ashes and withered trees, unify meditation and wisdom like a censer in an old shrine, and purify body and mind like a single white strand. I sincerely hope that you will do all this.
http://www.zenki.com/Keizan01.htm

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"Mu" is a treasure of the Soto way too. However, "Mu" as a subject of Koan introspection during Zazen, as a bridge toward a Kensho experience, is not a mainstream Soto practice ... and appears that it never was at or around the time of Dogen either.

One more point:

If one looks at where this is found within the entire 如淨和尚語錄 (Record of the Words of the Abbot Rujing), it is a not particularly prominent place in folio 2, among a whole mix of sayings on various topics ...

http://www.baus-ebs.org/sutra/fan-read/003/04-029.htm

... right next to a similar short "teaching in the hall" to mark the opening of the winter furnace heating system, in which (and granted, the opening and closing of the heating furnace is traditionally celebrated in Zen monasteries in China and Japan too, and was something very important in the cold cold mountains), Rujing waxes just as lyrical about furnaces ...

開爐上堂。只個柴頭煨火種。諸方聿起競開爐。天童直截超宗處。爐與柴頭盡底無。恁麼卻有暖氣。正好猛做工夫 。且道。如何驀忽雷霆轟烈焰。從教深夜雪饃糊

... containing lines comparing the furnace to "無" (MU) too, and that if one is fierce the flames will leap and the thunder roar!

So, the "MU" reference as being the doorway to "Emptiness" was used in many contexts, and did not necessarily refer only to sitting in Koan Introspection Zazen focused upon "MU".

Gassho, J

Hello Jundo,

Thank you.

Metta and Gassho,

Saijun

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

Per Dosho ... Keizan p. 42 (also from Transmission of the Light, actually quoting and commenting on Zen Patriarch Shanavasa) ...

"What kind of thing is the original unborn nature of all things?" Ananda pointed to a corner of Savanavasa'srobe. Again, he asked, "What kind of thing is the original nature of the Buddhas awakening?" Ananda then grasped a corner of Sanavasa's robe and pulled it. At that time, Sanavasa was greatly awakened.


Keizan comments ...

As a result of not penetrating this principle ... you will not only lose your human body, but you will not realize that the [human body] is the expression of the Self.

Any more?

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In thanking you for this teaching, Jundo, from my limited perspective and maybe others, after posting a writing/teaching, please follow in your words how the intent is to teach or show Big Mind. Some or most I get, but instead of posting them and leaving it to `see, as in making your case, please explain in more laymen terms, if you will gassho1.

Sorry, i miss took this as a new thread, no worries here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by galen

Some or most I get, but instead of posting them and leaving it to `see, as in making your case, please explain in more laymen terms, if you will gassho1.

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Hah! I can only explain so much, and only so much can be explained. The rest is a bit like my being a 3rd Base Pitching coach, and you the pitcher who must get on the mound and toss your own pitches. Find out for yourself ... and for your nonself.

Gassho, J

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

Hah! I can only explain so much, and only so much can be explained. The rest is a bit like my being a 3rd Base Pitching coach, and you the pitcher who must get on the mound and toss your own pitches. Find out for yourself ... and for your nonself.

Gassho, J

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Sure !! :blue:

Make me/us do the work. Just kidding... its like Chon Tri would say, your questions are for you, for you to figure out.... thanks.

Domyo Burk has a wonderful essay up today about the dangers of thinking you understand ... and the dangers of thinking you don't understand ... and the importance of understanding in a way that is not usual understanding. The whole posting needs to be read, but here is a taste ...

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Don’t think you understand It. On the other hand, don’t think you don’t understand It.

It? What is It, a pronoun capitalized this way? What is It, pronounced with the kind of emphasis that communicates great significance?

Alternatively It is called the Great Matter, Prajna Paramita, Enlightenment, Emptiness, Suchness. These are ways we refer to different aspects of It.

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It is difficult to say which of these – a sense that we don’t understand, or a sense that we do understand – is more detrimental to spiritual practice.

Buddhist understanding – prajna paramita, the perfection of wisdom – is completely different from ordinary understanding. It is so different that even though it is here under our noses all the time, we miss It.

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What is it that we see? A textbook answer would be something like, “we see that we, and all beings and things, are empty of inherent, enduring self-nature.” But this description is so inadequate to convey what we end up understanding.

We could also say “we see that things-just-as-they-are, without the filter of our self-concern, are precious.”

Or we could say “we see that there is only this moment, and this moment is free from suffering.”

Intellectual understanding of these descriptions, or faithful belief in these descriptions, do not convey the release from suffering that the Buddha found. They must be personally and directly experienced for that to occur. And once they are personally and directly experienced we are forever changed, but no experience in the past conveys lasting release from suffering either.

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This is why Zen Masters through the ages have pulled out all the stops and done all kinds of strange things to try and wake their students up from their dreams. They yanked their students’ noses, offered riddles, put slippers on their heads. What is that about? Some kind of ridiculous code? A contest to see who was least inhibited?

No.

It says Right Here, Right Now, Do You See?




http://brightwayzen.org/dont-think-you-understand/

Thank you for the link.

Gassho