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Keizan says "non-empty emptiness" cause even emptiness is empty, but don't think there's nada there ...
...while Hixon moons us. :oops:
(i find Hixon's writing style a bit over the top sometimes ... or over the moon ... too many wild phrases burying the Buddha)
Cook from 235
Hixon from 217
Jundo, normally I totally agree with you about Hixon’s commentary being over the top, but in this instance it brought something out that I often struggle with. That is the dichotomy of tradition and transmission. There is so much in this that brings up both clinging and aversion.
Transmission, as I understand it is not a matter of a document or robe, but the “Right View, right understanding” of the Buddha dharma. Whereas tradition might just be the clothes we put on on any given day. I have been talking to a few Okinawans about the buddhadharma lately, and it seems they only know about the clothes.
I got a little lump in my chest… So goes the tough guy.
Transmission beyond words and scriptures paradoxically transmited with language and scriptures.
Checking the internet I saw that the Caodong teachings were followed by Dogen in China. Is then Caodong the Chinese equivalent of Soto zen?
Gassho
Rimon
"Caodong" is "Soto" in Chinese! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Rimon
I sometimes describe Dogen as a Jazzman who was play beautiful variations, but the same beautiful tunes, of "traditional" Caodong teachings and doctrines of "Silent Illumination" in China, and prior Masters in our line such as the great Hongzhi. Dogen, in his music, brought the "old standards" to life, showing new facets, but the same song is there. An excellent book on the topic ...
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=9384
And, actually, the heart of the book is available online in a short essay by the author ...
http://www.ancientdragon.org/dharma/art ... st_sitting
Gassho, J
If we stop using language in thought do we stop thought? So what is left?
There is so much intertwining between the two that it can be almost impossible to unpick. Danxia is pointed right at it.
I very seldom disagree with my brother Jundo. But here I must say the words about the moon coming of the moon mouth of Hixon are spot on. I can really understand why the guy can be irritating though, he has got this sufi way of whirling around as he writes, worshiping as he speaks, a pinch of extasy and a drop of poetic dementia. Nevertheless fully potent in my clouded eyes.
And yes, Jundo, the jazzman Dogen is a good metaphor.
gassho
Taigu
Moon in a dewdrop, puddle, pond, lake, river, ocean, cloud. Deep bows to the brotherhood and sisterhood of dewdrops called Treeleaf. Gassho, Shogen
Hixon goes on way too long, but maybe he is being ironic in how he buries the phrase in all those phrases. Probably not, as irony does not suit him who is always so serious. I do like his two-pointed/full moon analogy, however.
As for the bigger issue, language is how we experience the world, how we make sense of the world. It is experience, and yet experience can also transcend language. Anyone here who has practiced long enough has had some experience that was beyond language, and then maybe they came here to try and put a phrase or two together in order to share it with others for their benefit (Kannon).
Us Buddhists rely heavily on language. We are doing it right now (me writing it and you reading it) and yet there is all this talk of going beyond language. Exactly Zen! Now go sit, Mr. Hixon.
"Destined successor asks living Buddha: ' What is the single phrase transmitted by all Buddhas Ancestors throughout space ant time?' The Awakened one replies sternly: 'If you imagine that you can encounter the timeless radiance of transmission as any phrase or as any gesture, you are burying the moon deep under ground.' "
Yep, I guess Hixon showed how to bury the moon deep under ground very well.
It is interesting to compare this chapter to the version in Thomas Cleary's book. It took him only 1 1/4 page to finish what he had to say.
Gassho,
Sunyatta
Very interesting essay Jundo. It helped to understand a little better the Japanese/Chinese connectionQuote:
Originally Posted by Jundo
Gassho
Rimon
The difficulty to read Hixon is the very difficulty that most people have with the brightness of the moon.
We want worlds to mirror our old stinky world, we are seeking approval or rational amazement.
Once returned to the source, child-like laughters and the intimate knowledge we are nothing.
Hixon's words flow from infinite siiiting, Mr AlanLa, go sit.
And I really like what you say about language, AlanLa.
gassho
Taigu
Sunnyata,
The shobogenzo is still being written...Quote:
It took him only 1 1/4 page to finish what he had to say.
Open your eyes, please, there is a place where a speck of silence contains countless songs, where countless songs are but a speck of silence.
In Coltrane solo. In Hendrix riff. In Shakespeare too.
gassho
Taigu
Of course they do. I was trying to be cute, as in ironic about the possibility of him being ironic. Never mind. Sitting, sitting, sitting.........Quote:
Hixon's words flow from infinite siiiting, Mr AlanLa, go sit.
I took it from the chapter on language in Philosophical Meditations on Zen Buddhism by Dale Wright, a very enlightening read.Quote:
And I really like what you say about language, AlanLa.
sometimes over the top just is enough to reach me and ground when im wrapped up in my own BS! Other times it buries me under
Hixon or Cook... each end up reaching us... which one...just depends!
That said Hixons writing spoke to me, all the moon though, "obscured by dirt" is still the moon still. No moon or quarter moon there is still just that full moon! The ancestors, the lineage, all of it are not somewhere else. We reflect Buddha-teachings-ancestors fully, although sometimes in our searching to see it, we stand in away that obscures our view of the light in the drops and waves...but its still there!
Gassho
Shohei
I doubt I will ever see the crescent moon the same again. I finished the "moon-dance" retreat yesterday and then went out to walk the dog and found Hixon's two-pointed moon and Dogen's full moon there with me, as me. Crowded yet spacious that walk was.
I enjoy both books, but Cook as well as Hixon frustrates me a bit at times...quite a few twists and turns. Funny some say Dogen's writing is frustrating and despite its complexity, I don't get the feeling of frustration....perhaps frustration is good. The moon in Hixon worked for me, but I'm a sucker for the moon anyway.
Ah yes I read "Cultivating the Empty Field" and can some of the basis of Dogen's thinking.....the same tunes, but he just seemed to have taken them to an entirely new level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jundo
Gassho,
BrianW/Jisen